At what point would you choose not to become a physican?

[The Knife & Gun Club]

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At a recent interview, during the lunch were interviewees chat with current students, one of the current students said this:

"Lets be honest, you're all here because you love medicine, not to make a bunch of money. I bet if doctors salaries were capped at 60 grand a year, all our students would all still be here. "

He went on to say he supported capping doctors salaries at around 60k, in order to ensure people only went into medicine for the love of the job, and not the money.

Obviously I think that is ludicrous given debt load, hours worked, etc. but it did get me wondering at what point I would have to find another career. Personally, I think id be out if they capped it at $150k/year.

So at what point would you decide to find another profession?

 

[Lannister]

😵 $60,000 a year is like nothing. Especially for an extremely demanding job that requires almost a decade of training and tons of debt. Granted I grew up in a pretty well-off family, but I cannot imagine supporting a family of four in the town that I grew up in on $60,000. Even $150,000 seems a little low to me, for some specialties.

 

[Mansamusa]

.

 

[deleted407021]

Wasn't there a giant thread about this very idea fairly recently?

 

[theonlytycrane]

Did you look at the student and say "lolz"


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[cantankerous]

Of course, my rich mummy and daddy can support me, too. Maybe, you guys should find richer parents. If you don't like being poor, then be rich.

 

[Dr.NickRiviera]

I'm guessing he's never worked a job before. I thought 60K was a lot until I got an actual full-time job and realized how much taxes, insurance, and food actually takes out of my paycheck.

Yes, it's not about the money. But the money is really nice, even in the primary care field that everyone seems to avoid. I'll strive to be as noble as I can but not to the detriment of my family.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Like half my interview group gave a collective

 

[mimelim]

😵 $60,000 a year is like nothing. Especially for an extremely demanding job that requires almost a decade of training and tons of debt. Granted I grew up in a pretty well-off family, but I cannot imagine supporting a family of four in the town that I grew up in on $60,000. Even $150,000 seems a little low to me, for some specialties.

It is also 13% more than the median household income in the United States. While the opportunity cost is a real factor, it seems a little out of touch with reality/the rest of the country to say "😵 $60,000 a year is like nothing."

 

[Gurby]

Isn't there a giant thread about this very idea at least once a week?

FTFY

 

[Lannister]

It is also 13% more than the median household income in the United States. While the opportunity cost is a real factor, it seems a little out of touch with reality/the rest of the country to say "😵 $60,000 a year is like nothing."

Like I said, I did grow up in a family who's income is around the 95th percentile or so, so obviously my perspective is a little bit skewed. I also grew up in an extremely expensive area where 60k would not even come close to being enough to pay for living expenses.

 

[Govols22]

Like I said, I did grow up in a family who's income is around the 95th percentile or so, so obviously my perspective is a little bit skewed. I also grew up in an extremely expensive area where 60k would not even come close to being enough to pay for living expenses.

Something a Lannister would say.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Like I said, I did grow up in a family who's income is around the 95th percentile or so, so obviously my perspective is a little bit skewed. I also grew up in an extremely expensive area where 60k would not even come close to being enough to pay for living expenses.

Yea I'm in the same boat. I'm not chasing money but I'm also not interested in making substantially less than my parents made

 

[Mansamusa]

Also, $60K is lower than the median income for someone with a doctorate. It would be very difficult to convince students to undergo the training of a physician to make less than PhD holders. The brightest in the medical field would head to other careers--> Decrease in medical innovation and less qualified physicians. Plus the government would need to start funding the 30,000 medical students we have per year--> Net loss for the government that will be shifted to patients in the form of taxess. Don't make no sense to me

 

[Lannister]

Something a Lannister would say.

Haha I'm pretty sure a Lannister would see anyone who wasn't part of the 0.01% as a peasant.

 

[TBV]

I'd tell that student that he's out of touch with his class and shouldn't be the voice of them. Nobody would choose medicine on 60k a year unless they had mommy and daddy pay for their education and there were insane cuts to hours worked and liability.

 

[allantois]

The US could always import whatever workforce it itself cannot produce.

 

[VegasPreMed]

It is also 13% more than the median household income in the United States. While the opportunity cost is a real factor, it seems a little out of touch with reality/the rest of the country to say "😵 $60,000 a year is like nothing."

No joke. Our income prior to doing this whole med school thing was right around there.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Yea that's true. But at 60k I feel like it'd be far more lucrative to just stay in whatever country trained the physician rather than move here

 

[cantankerous]

The US could always import whatever workforce it itself cannot produce.

I'm sure you could import an Indian doctor who would be willing to work for $30k a year

 

[whatever5]

I'd be fine with a lower salary if that also meant a lower tuition. No one smart enough to get into medical school is going to take out 200-300k in loans to make 60k a year, especially when PA/NPs are pulling ~85k, have way less debt, and also get to practice medicine to a certain extent.

 

[JustAPhD]

Out of curiosity, let's flip it a little bit. Would you work for $80K, if it meant your schooling was paid for + a COL stipend?

 

[deleted480308]

At a recent interview, during the lunch were interviewees chat with current students, one of the current students said this:

"Lets be honest, you're all here because you love medicine, not to make a bunch of money. I bet if doctors salaries were capped at 60 grand a year, all our students would all still be here. "

He went on to say he supported capping doctors salaries at around 60k, in order to ensure people only went into medicine for the love of the job, and not the money.

Obviously I think that is ludicrous given debt load, hours worked, etc. but it did get me wondering at what point I would have to find another career. Personally, I think id be out if they capped it at $150k/year.

So at what point would you decide to find another profession?

That person is unfamiliar with "brain drain"

 

[Mansamusa]

Out of curiosity, let's flip it a little bit. Would you work for $80K, if it meant your schooling was paid for + a COL stipend?

I would still want over $100K, personally. Nurses in my area start at over $80K. There is a lot of stress with being a doctor and I think there needs to be some sort of incentive to take on that responsibility instead of becoming a nurse, PA, etc. Or going into a different field entirely

Even in the UK, doctors make 3 times or more of the median income for their country. 3 times the median US household income is $150K.

Edit: Many sites actually state that the average UK GP gets 5x the UK median income and that junior doctors in specialty fields are getting 2x the median income. So they are getting paid around or more relative to the median income than US doctors, without the student debt

 

[terra330]

I think $120k would be my minimum, and even then maxing out at $120k when you have to go through 3-7 years of ~$50k would suck. I would strongly consider other healthcare jobs at that point.

 

[eteshoe]

Out of curiosity, let's flip it a little bit. Would you work for $80K, if it meant your schooling was paid for + a COL stipend?

I personally wouldn't since that's about how much I'd be making coming straight out of undergrad. I'm not all about the money but after an additional 15 yrs or so of training, $80K is just not worth it.

 

[Goro]

I read in this week's Time magazine who one 20 year old who dropped out of college for fear of debt is now living with his parents and working as a dishwasher making "chump change".

Gee, to my generation, my parents and my grandparents, that would be called "making a living". $60K a year would be called "a nice salary".

It is also 13% more than the median household income in the United States. While the opportunity cost is a real factor, it seems a little out of touch with reality/the rest of the country to say "😵 $60,000 a year is like nothing."

 

[Mansamusa]

[

 

[whatever5]

UPDATE - I just found out there are people who stream themselves eating huge meals and make upwards of $70,000 a year. Will be pursuing this dream prior to med school matriculation.

 

[allantois]

I personally wouldn't since that's about how much I'd be making coming straight out of undergrad. I'm not all about the money but after an additional 15 yrs or so of training, $80K is just not worth it.

You vastly overestimate the value of an undergrad education.

 

[Mansamusa]

.

 

[deleted738762]

60k is extremely low for four years of undergrad + 4 years of medical school. The guy who mentioned it thought this would probably weed out the "fake doctors" if the cap was at 60k, but the logic seems unjust. I believe doctors should strive to be comfortable being uncomfortable, and they wouldn't lose their feeling of comfort for just 60k. It doesn't make sense and that guy's logic is extremely flawed. If you think about it, I'm sure many people would like to be doctors to help people and then be well compensated. However, working you're ass off and being undervalued based on pay should surely stem some frustration.

 

[eteshoe]

You vastly overestimate the value of an undergrad education.

Not really. I went to a top engineering school and came out with a $70K job offer. Worked for a while and wasn't intellectually fulfilled so I decided pursue medicine (my other dream career when I was an undergrad).

 

[PREMEDitated22]

I've lived on about 12 grand for the last 5 years and have been quite surprisingly content. Grew up with even less as a child. I'd be fine with 60k if there was no debt lol at the end of the day, it is really an amazing job. Especially if you love what you do everyday.

 

[CBFutureHelper14]

Out of curiosity, let's flip it a little bit. Would you work for $80K, if it meant your schooling was paid for + a COL stipend?

That sounds good but there is still the ~10 year training.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

I just read that CRNAs average 160k. I expect to make at least that as a physician lol

 

[coldcase331]

UPDATE - I just found out there are people who stream themselves eating huge meals and make upwards of $70,000 a year. Will be pursuing this dream prior to med school matriculation.

Become the next Matt Stonie!

 

[coldcase331]

And as far as my opinion goes on the subject. The only way I would be ok with a cap is if my schooling would be payed for, or at least capped at say 10k/year. Therefore, my number would depend upon which route we would take.

What kills doctors from a purely financial perspective right now is the opportunity cost. While we are paying ~40-50k/year in tuition a year, people right out of school at our level could probably make a starting salary of ~50k/year. This creates an opportunity cost of 90-100k/year. In addition, the salaries of residencies would be lower than our mid career income, so that needs to be accounted for as well. This would probably bring the opportunity costs to ~$400,000. This is why the passion for medicine needs to be there, because there are better options out there from a financial perspective.

 

[Lucca]

If 60K a year also came with guaranteed healthcare, retirement savings, college tuition for my children, disability in case it is needed, and zero debt from medical training and housing in urban areas subsidized for public servants of that area to be able to afford the costs of living in a 21st century city then yah I would work for that amount. I do think physicians are worth significantly more. I'd be very happy with double that, 120K a year, and would with all of the other benefits I mentioned previously feel that I would be compensated fairly for my time (even though I think what docs do is worth much much more but, hey, such a system has to be affordable). Hell, if I can manage to get the research / medicine career I want, it looks like 100-120k will be the salary I will be earning for the most significant portion of my career.

Similarly, I don't think many professionals are paid enough...especially school teachers, nurses, social workers, military personnel, researchers....just about anyone who isn't an executive, venture capitalist, or financier is undervalued. It is also not the case that executives etc are exceedingly overvalued, I do believe they are very valuable and should reap the benefits of their work accordingly but you would have to be silly to think what they tend to make currently is reasonable.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Largely a side note but in regards to the whole "would you work as a doc even if you made 80k a year" the doctors who Ive talked to about this who say yes are often the ones who whenever I bring up the idea of gap year or two frequently retorting "youll lose years of attending salary. Not worth it". Definitely a dichotomy and it's always the first thing I think about when this question gets posed. It's alot easier to say youll work for 3X less the salary and agree with in theory and actually believe it and be willing to live that way.

 

[Lucca]

Largely a side note but in regards to the whole "would you work as a doc even if you made 80k a year" the doctors who Ive talked to about this who say yes are often the ones who whenever I bring up the idea of gap year or two frequently retorting "youll lose years of attending salary. Not worth it". Definitely a dichotomy and it's always the first thing I think about when this question gets posed. It's alot easier to say youll work for 3X less the salary and agree with in theory and actually believe it and be willing to live that way.

I think this is true. As someone whose family has been a standard deviation (or two) on either side from the median income in the US, I think people from low SES backgrounds undervalue the benefits of being wealthy and the wealthy overvalue the benefits of maintaining their wealth lol. It's always hard to say no when, in theory, you could grab the 300K carrot at the end of the stick in spite of wanting something else for yourself when you started your career (primary care, research, etc).


Maybe I'm wrong though...maybe being super rich is a second peak of super-awesome-benefits I don't know about! I try not to think about it too much lol

 

[GrapesofRath]

I think this is true. As someone whose family has been a standard deviation (or two) on either side from the median income in the US, I think people from low SES backgrounds undervalue the benefits of being wealthy and the wealthy overvalue the benefits of maintaining their wealth lol. It's always hard to say no when, in theory, you could grab the 300K carrot at the end of the stick in spite of wanting something else for yourself when you started your career (primary care, research, etc).


Maybe I'm wrong though...maybe being super rich is a second peak of super-awesome-benefits I don't know about! I try not to think about it too much lol

On the surface I have absolutely zero problem with someone saying "I'm primarily in medicine for the money".

What gets some uneasy about it will be there are certain things that there is a reasonable chance it says about the physician. There is a fair chance they arent really into their work, care about patients, care about hte field, or have any interest in going the extra mile amongst a million other things. There is a reasonable chance they will end up not enjoying various parts of their life which can affect their performance.

The thing to think about here is that all physicians have things about them that could potentially affect their performance in a negative way. It could be how they carry themselves, their personality, their beliefs, certain characteristics(ie being very stubborn, or being arrogant to a fault). Does being in it "just for the money" make a doctor more likely to characteristics that are more likely to negatively affect their work than other common problems doctors might have? Perhaps. I think the easy answer is "yes absolutely". But I think it's worth thinking about a little bit more than that.

Like you mentioned. Finances are a real thing. Your lifestyle making 200+k a year vs 70k as a nurse or 90k as a PA are radically different and the difference in impact it has on you and your family is significant. Pretending those factors dont affect your life in a major way like some do is foolish.

 

[WingedOx]

The scenario you described is about as likely as the "would you still be a doctor if you won powerball" thread.

/yes, EVEN IF Bernie becomes president. 🙄

 

[7331poas]

I'm sure you could import an Indian doctor who would be willing to work for $30k a year

How about a German or English Doctor? Medicine and doctors salaries is a racket in the USA




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[McSpicy]

People with MDs go 3-7 years of making 60k a year already... Although physicians will have to see more patients to make the same salary with the healthcare changes, it just wouldn't make sense to have low salaries considering the debt associated with 8 years of school.

 

[Chasing Never Land]

Comparing 60k to the median income only works if the median income is enough to survive on. Where I'm from, the median income would make it hard for a single person to feed and house themselves. A family would be impossible.

I think the real issue here is that the median income of an American family is too low. As an immigrant from Europe, I was shocked when I came her by how many people live in poverty, how many kids go hungry, etc in a nation with so much.


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[Chasing Never Land]

How about a German or English Doctor? Medicine and doctors salaries is a racket in the USA




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You make very good money in private practice in Europe, which most people do after spending a required number of years working for low wages in their national health service in return for free med school.

Wish that was the case here.....


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[Law2Doc]

With no student debt? I'd cap out at $150K. With current debt load, I want at least $250K. At $150K I wouldn't even be able to pay off the interest accruing on my loans
....

Reality check -- There are quite a few doctors earning $150k, and most have student loans. The average for all post-residency physicians, according to major surveys, is around $200k and quite a few aren't much above average. So yeah, a lot of docs would do this job for $150k and more than you think probably do.

Obviously the $60k figure was an absurd exaggeration, given the long training path and amount of debt involved, but I think the point that this shouldn't be so much about the money is not a bad one. If you can do something you really enjoy and are living comfortably (not extravagantly) you have found that holy grail.

 

[coldcase331]

Reality check -- There are quite a few doctors earning $150k, and most have student loans. The average for all post-residency physicians, according to major surveys, is around $200k and quite a few aren't much above average. So yeah, a lot of docs would do this job for $150k and more than you think probably do.

Obviously the $60k figure was an absurd exaggeration, given the long training path and amount of debt involved, but I think the point that this shouldn't be so much about the money is not a bad one. If you can do something you really enjoy and are living comfortably (not extravagantly) you have found that holy grail.

I don't think many of us are arguing against the fact that you shouldn't pursue medicine for money. All we're saying is that if we are going to invest time and money into the training, we should be given a fair compensation rate that reflects the specialization of the profession.

 

[Tenk]

Fibromyalgia alone makes this job worth at least $250,000.