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At what point would you choose not to become a physican?
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You dont make anywhere close to what a specialist would make here in the US. Like I said, its a racket.
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Well in Europe they make less, but as said before they have no load debt and work considerably better hours. Also more things are provided by the government in EU nations, like healthcare and other services the US does not provide or provides considerably less of.
Yes.......
What does that have to do with the fact that the US doesnt allow their doctors to practice in the US? The answer is because America has set up a system to create an artificial scarcity to protect doctor's incomes and employment rates.
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deleted393595
Error 404: Understanding of Economics not found
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It only seems oversimplified because what you distilled from my post wasn't actually anything close to what I said. I said if you can find a job you really enjoy and can be comfortable, that should be the end of the inquiry. I also pointed out that there are many doctors earning less than what that prior poster thought was his breaking point ($250k), so he might be being unrealistic.
An English degree is not a career, so your analogy fails. If it doesn't lead to a career that can service $150k in debt then obviously you can't incur that kind of debt, but if it leads to a career in law, consulting, etc, where you can service that debt and live reasonably well, then sure why not? You get to do what you love and pay your bills, it's a win.
But yeah if someone would "love" a career that's patient/client/student focused and involves lengthy training, debt, but chooses something else because the money is a bit better and he can do even better than just "comfortable", he probably wasn't really the right person for that career anyway.
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for 60k, I'd be a plumber and do medicine as a hobby in my free time. lol.
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The average doctors salary is around $200k and many earn below that. So I think it's dangerous to peg your hopes on $250k. That being said, with the lowest doctors salary should service a fair amount of debt over time. So if it's what you love a lower physicians salary shouldn't be prohibitive.
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Capping anyone's salaries is a stupid idea. If we're talking about at what economic point I wouldn't become a physician, it'd have to be paying pretty low, without any change in debt load.
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That would be a fine strategy as long as that medical school not only gives full cost of attendance scholarship to all their classes, but also grants a very sizable retirement package for their graduates
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deleted731525
username checks out...j/k, I feel you 60k is too low given the debt.
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deleted731525
This is an overly simplistic view(that is also mostly false) imo. The main barrier to entry to medicine in the US is residency. I believe the AAMC actually is trying to expand government funding for more residency positions, but is being met with resistance from the government for a variety of political reasons that have little to do with supply or demand of physicians.
https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/keyissues/physician_workforce/
Right, no one is contesting that.
Still doesn't address the question which is why can't German doctors practice in the US? Either German doctors aren't as "good" as American doctors or America has simply set up a system such that international attendings cannot compete in the labor market in the USA.
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So I made about 70k straight out of undergrad at age 22, with a bunch of cool perks like travel, free food etc on top. Many of my friends did equally well, and I was by no means at HYPS or even close.
But they want me to train for 7-12 years, go 300k in debt, and forego a decade of savings and compounding ROI so that I can start off again at age 30-33 with a massive debt and making 10k less per year than I did at age 22? Hahaha! Yeah, medicine isn't about the money, but it's about the money. Let's pretend there are 100,000 types of "jobs" out there, I guarantee you that 99,999 of them will have workers saying they don't make enough, and I'm including actors and professional athletes, CEOs, etc in this mix. Let's not be the only sucker in the world to argue that we should make less than we do.
But they want me to train for 7-12 years, go 300k in debt, and forego a decade of savings and compounding ROI so that I can start off again at age 30-33 with a massive debt and making 10k less per year than I did at age 22? Hahaha! Yeah, medicine isn't about the money, but it's about the money. Let's pretend there are 100,000 types of "jobs" out there, I guarantee you that 99,999 of them will have workers saying they don't make enough, and I'm including actors and professional athletes, CEOs, etc in this mix. Let's not be the only sucker in the world to argue that we should make less than we do.
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Your situation is an anecdote. If you just look around you'll see that most of the nation is hurting.
Yes, most of the nation has always been hurting compared to doctors. And doctors have always been hurting compared to CEOs. And CEOs have always been hurting compared to billionaire tycoons. Inequality is a fact of life. I mean, I used to work for minimum wage all throughout college, and even while in high school. If I had used the money I earned not to pay for college but instead to pay for a nice car and/or drugs, I'd still be making minimum wage. Choices and all that.
Anyway, my point stands. There are certainly a lot more people going on to make at least 60k straight out of undergrad than there are getting accepted into medical school. Or put it another way: it's a lot easier to go into college and get a 60k job at graduation than it is to go to college and then get accepted to medical school.
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40% of people applying to medical school get into med school. Meanwhile the median salary out of college IF you get a job out of college is 44k. The average CEO makes less than the average doctor (160k vs 180k). Now im not going to argue that it isnt hard to be a doctor, but to say that you would rather tough it out as literally any other profession is crazy.
My main point is that doctors have it great in this country because physicians in this country do not have to compete in the labor market against German physicians (as an example). This separates them from nearly every other profession in the US. That is the real advantage here, not salaries or who gets what benefit. The whole landscape would look different if we allowed certain countries to compete against our doctors, even the countries with similar training lengths.
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Yeah, how outrageous. You know what's even worse? A whopping 50% of the presidential nominees end up becoming president of the United States. And they don't face any competition from foreigners, either!
Is my argument not fair? Well that's the point, innit. Your argument was fundamentally flawed, and all I'm doing is taking the flaw to an extreme level to help in pinpointing it.
There are thousands and thousands of incorporated entities out there, many of them complete shell companies created solely for tax code purposes, but they still have CEOs. Other corporations are legitimate but still generate less revenue than your local McDonald's franchise. The title "CEO" is not as grand as you make it out to be, and median CEO salary corresponds to this reality. When we speak of "CEOs" in the vernacular, we are by convention referring to fat cat executives of major, mass market corporations. And yes, they make a lot more than doctors. As they should.
What? Presidents come from this country for a reason. There is no reason why German doctors should not be able to complete with US doctors for employment in the US.
yes...they should make more than doctors because they do magnitudes more important work. I dont see your point here.
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European doctors CAN work in the US - either with a sponsorship or by taking the USMLE. Why aren't more of them here? Their quality of life is much better in their home countries.
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You need a US medical license to practice medicine in the United States. You obtain a US medical license by going through a rigorous, well defined training process in accredited American institutions. German doctors have not gone through this process, have not obtained a US medical license, and thus are not licensed to practice medicine in the United States. What part of this is so hard to understand? Or are you advocating that the medical licensing system be bypassed, and that doctors from all over the world are given the benefit of the doubt that their training was as rigorous as is expected of US trained physicians? You want to lower the rigor of medical licensing, and likely reduce the quality of providers, just so that physician salaries go down?
As for that last bit about CEOs, dude, come on. It's a non-sequitor, I don't even know how to reply to that.
There is nothing that isnt understood. Why arent you getting that I am well aware of the fact that german doctors cant practice here, the point of my statement is that I am challenging the very justification of that. No other country does this. In the UK, if a US doctor wants to practice there, he can do so with far less hoops to jump through than vice versa. Its essentially a cartel.
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp
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Holy **** this thread is cancer. It's like a bunch of 3rd graders arguing about quantum mechanics after learning about electrons and protons.
To answer the question, I wouldn't become a doctor if my debt was >$500,000 or if salaries were capped at 150K-200K. No way would I go through this process dealing with the BS this job brings. Wait till you guys are actually in a medical school classroom before you even understand this.
To answer the question, I wouldn't become a doctor if my debt was >$500,000 or if salaries were capped at 150K-200K. No way would I go through this process dealing with the BS this job brings. Wait till you guys are actually in a medical school classroom before you even understand this.
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I'll owe more than a person making 60k a year pulls after taxes in interest alone each year. Nopenopenope. Wouldn't do medicine for less than 200k for a regular week with a potential to pick up other shifts.
It shouldn't matter how much a person loves a field, so long as they're the best person for the job. This hippy "do what you love" nonsense is garbage- do what you can stand, that you're reasonably good at, that makes as much money as possible, and do what you love when you aren't at work. A job is a job, selecting idealists over people that are good at what they do is just rigoddamndiculous.
It shouldn't matter how much a person loves a field, so long as they're the best person for the job. This hippy "do what you love" nonsense is garbage- do what you can stand, that you're reasonably good at, that makes as much money as possible, and do what you love when you aren't at work. A job is a job, selecting idealists over people that are good at what they do is just rigoddamndiculous.
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Except that isn't true, because you need to repeat your GME, just as they must here, but, unlike here, the UK is required to prioritize UK>EU>all others regardless of qualifications. That means it's actually harder for you to get into a UK foundation year than it is to do vice versa.
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Again, with the average physicians salary hovering around $200k, a lot of doctors out there will find themselves working in the $150-200k range. It's a very dangerous mindset to tell yourself you have to end up above average before you even start.
I think pre-allo is often a bit dangerous in that too many people lock onto salaries of certain subspecialists off a few (misleading) recruiter pages and think that's what they are going to earn. You might get to be that person, but the also might be the guy on the other side of the average. If it's less about the $ you'll be fine, but if you have the mindset "I must earn $50k or more above the average" half of you are setting yourself up for a fall.
Could you clarify what you mean here. From what I read on this site you do not have to repeat your whole GME if you are a US attending wishing to practice in the UK.
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It allows you to register, which is the same as getting an ECFMG certificate here. It does not entitle you to practice- for that you must complete a foundation year followed by a practice pathway to either become a GP or a specialist.
Yep I see that. They are still protecting their incomes. I am wrong to think that the US is alone in this, but it still doesnt justify it.
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My spouse and I make about 80k-85k before taxes. My spouse is an esq and gets screwed at our company and I'm a clinical researcher/chemist who also gets screwed. We live in an area where the median household income is 48k. We bought a house below our means, have two cars, and are trying to manage student loan debt. We live well, but barely save anything per month. I can't imagine capping at 60k with all of the debt (I could potentially have 2-3x more than my spouse) and service given to the medical field. In the next ten years, we plan on having kids, a bigger house will be necessary (and be living in a different area), and dealing with a lot more debt. I can't imagine only making ~35k more in our house and trying to balance all of those added issues. Dude is nuts.
@7331poas
Your assertion that doctors are the only profession that is "protected" from foreign workers is completely and categorically wrong. Last time I checked, something like 25-30% of physicians practicing in the United States were trained overseas. Name me one other profession where the saturation of foreigners is similarly high. Accountants? No. Lawyers? No. Engineers? No. Journalists? No. Politicians, police officers, firefighers? Hahaha...er.. no.
So as you see, you have it exactly backwards. People born in foreign countries represent 13% of the US population. However, they represent 27% of physicians. So there you have it. Doctors are by no means sheltered from foreign competition. They are, in very fact, twice as impacted by it as the "average" worker out there. This should put an end to this silly debate, because frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Your assertion that doctors are the only profession that is "protected" from foreign workers is completely and categorically wrong. Last time I checked, something like 25-30% of physicians practicing in the United States were trained overseas. Name me one other profession where the saturation of foreigners is similarly high. Accountants? No. Lawyers? No. Engineers? No. Journalists? No. Politicians, police officers, firefighers? Hahaha...er.. no.
So as you see, you have it exactly backwards. People born in foreign countries represent 13% of the US population. However, they represent 27% of physicians. So there you have it. Doctors are by no means sheltered from foreign competition. They are, in very fact, twice as impacted by it as the "average" worker out there. This should put an end to this silly debate, because frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Are those people who already completed a residency and were already attendings? Thats who I am talking about here, not EU med students who came to the US for residency; those med students dont care about having to "repeat" a residency since they never started one.
What I am saying is that attendings oversees virtually cannot come to the US and practice because they will be forced to redo their training for a 4 year period.
Look man, I'm getting tired of this little dialogue so I'm going to put an end to it here and give you the last word. You keep moving the goalposts, so I have no choice but to cease and desist matching you post for post.
Your original claim was that physicians are unique among the professions in that they do not face competition from immigrant labor. The simple fact is, only 13% of the overall labor force is from overseas, whereas 27% of the physician labor force is from overseas. I don't care which way you slice it on the technicalities, but a duck is a duck.. Your average physician is twice as likely to be from outside the United States as is your average non-physician worker. If you want to keep arguing that despite this crystal clear math black is white and white is black, be my guest.
Your original claim was that physicians are unique among the professions in that they do not face competition from immigrant labor. The simple fact is, only 13% of the overall labor force is from overseas, whereas 27% of the physician labor force is from overseas. I don't care which way you slice it on the technicalities, but a duck is a duck.. Your average physician is twice as likely to be from outside the United States as is your average non-physician worker. If you want to keep arguing that despite this crystal clear math black is white and white is black, be my guest.
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I have no idea how where people trained at relates to competition from international grads. What you are claiming is akin to, "The sky is blue, therefore the Patriots are better then the Rams." In short, physicians in the US do not face appreciable pressure or competition from foreign trained physicians. Our system is very protectionist against it. Could it change? Sure. Is it likely to? No. But, to claim otherwise, especially based on some random statistic that has nothing to do with competition is a bit silly.
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Law is pretty well protected. You really can't practice law in any state without being admitted to the bar and for the most part you can't sit for the bar without having gone to an ABA accredited law school. So you won't see many foreign trained lawyers getting US law jobs.
As for medicine, the US taxpayer investment in schooling and training of a US doctor isn't insubstantial -- it's heavily federally subsidized, so it would be a bad result if US people didn't find jobs even apart from defaulting on their student loans.
Also the US needs to be able to manage the number, training and quality of US doctors. Medicine is not completely fungible across nations -- the rules and expectations of a US doctor and say an EU doctor aren't always congruent, and so the learning curve for the best foreign applicants may still be steep. You don't have the same patient expectations, don't live in the same litigious society, and a lot of things that are pretty much assumed and common knowledge here are foreign to people who learned elsewhere.
The US is among the most open healthcare paths for foreign trained people, and frankly as US schools start generating enough doctors to meet US needs there are more than a few legitimate reasons to close the doors a bit that have little to do with xenophobia.
Look, our system is very protectionist against foreign workers in general. This is not unique to physicians. You think a foreign lawyer, engineer, plumber, or basket weaver can just get up and come here to practice their trade at a moment's whimsy? There are massive immigration law barriers against it, which is why for the most part, wages for lawyers, engineers, plumbers, and basket weavers in the United States are 7-10 times higher than the world average.
To be honest, I think you misinterpreted the course of the argument we were having. My point was not that American physicians are not protected against foreign labor. My point is that on the whole, they are not any more protected against foreign labor than the general American worker in other industries. Hence, it was perfectly logical for me to bring up the foreign composition of the physician labor force vs the overall labor force. This comparison is perfectly pertinent to the discussion. It's hard to argue that doctors are more protected from foreign workers than most other occupations, when doctors have twice the level of foreign workers in their field as those other occupations. This should not be debatable, frankly.
Its hard to say that when attending physicians in the US stand to make far more money than doctors in any other country in the world. They also stand to make more money than any other profession in the US. The US may have a disproportionate set of factors which drive foreign doctors to the US vs foreign grade school teachers to the US.
I am not really comparing them against other countries. My point is that there is little good reason to force doctors from certain countries to redo 4 years of training. The US could easily put together system where they could vet other programs/countires for eligibility or to allow some doctors to fast-track into attending status based on objective proof of competency.
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So your thought process is limited to this is bigger than that
It has no room for patient load, hours worked, characteristics of patient population, onerous governmental quality measures, medicolegal pressures, cost of living, educational debt, etc.
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