"At Will" Employment?

[VenusinFurs]

I'm not sure if this is even the right place to put this. I'm a third year family medicine resident, and I just got an offer in California. I liked the practice a lot. Nothing in the contract really sticks out as a dealbreaker, other than this clause at the end that says I can be fired for any reason. I'm going to be taking a considerable risk relocating to the other end of the country, and I want to protect myself. Any thoughts? Before you say it, yes, I do plan on getting a lawyer.

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[RadOncDoc21]

Lawyer up... specifically for what you stated. There could be other clauses that are even worse, it's worth the money in the end.

 

[michaelrack]

u should insist on either party having to give 3 months notice to terminate the contract. also look into malpractice/tail issues

 

[Bacchus]

I'm not sure if this is even the right place to put this. I'm a third year family medicine resident, and I just got an offer in California. I liked the practice a lot. Nothing in the contract really sticks out as a dealbreaker, other than this clause at the end that says I can be fired for any reason. I'm going to be taking a considerable risk relocating to the other end of the country, and I want to protect myself. Any thoughts? Before you say it, yes, I do plan on getting a lawyer.

I had this issue with the contract I just signed. I can be fired with cause immediately but without cause would need 90 days notification. In the reasons listed, 2 of them were character-type issues. My lawyer recommended I request they be removed. I petitioned and the organization refused. They stated they need to have those clauses because of past issues. This is standard in all their employment contracts. That said, the physician group employs over 700 physicians in our area so others are "ok" with these clauses. The contract otherwise was great so I wasn't going to create a huge fuss. Lawyer up. Have them put something in about 3 months or 90 days for non-cause termination.

 

[Crayola227]

Some might even have a severance package which would be nice if they just can you, at least you can get some dolla dolla bills to keep you floating. If you don't want to be the attending living paycheck to paycheck go to white coat investor and get a financial advisor ASAP so you have money for any relocating.

 

[Law2Doc]

...This is standard in all their employment contracts...

FWIW there is no such thing as "standard" for these clauses -- it's just a nice way of saying "no, we aren't going to take that out".

I wouldn't sweat it though, if they need to fire you they can always come up with some "cause". I'm sure they keep a file of every insignificant issue that ever comes up. They know you probably wont be litigating whether a cause is significant enough or not -- the heels of justice move slowly and by then you'll have found a new job.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

FWIW there is no such thing as "standard" for these clauses -- it's just a nice way of saying "no, we aren't going to take that out".

I wouldn't sweat it though, if they need to fire you they can always come up with some "cause". I'm sure they keep a file of every insignificant issue that ever comes up. They know you probably wont be litigating whether a cause is significant enough or not -- the heels of justice move slowly and by then you'll have found a new job.

There you go... you just got free legal advice!

 

[VenusinFurs]

So my contract does not mention anything about tail coverage which is a thing I'd like for sure, but also- it just says "we provide malpractice coverage under the FTCA." Is it typical for contracts to mention like amounts covered? That seems like an important thing to know.

 

[Law2Doc]

There you go... you just got free legal advice!

Hardly. He should still get a lawyer. I'm just saying (to a different poster) that if someone says a clause in an agreement is "standard" it's bogus. and that I wouldn't get excited about the "for cause" distinction because of how easy that burden is to meet. Nobody is never going to make a mistake as a doctor, and once you do they have cause, even if it's not the real reason they are sacking you.

But no this isn't legal advice, not directed to the OP, and frankly doesn't take into account any aspects of his contract. As its not going to be "standard" none or all of what I'm saying may or may not be relevant.

 

[doc05]

this isn't "standard" but it is very common. if they can fire you without cause, then be sure you can quit without cause too. remember that many first jobs don't work out, and be sure you can easily break the contract if it turns out you're not happy there.

your contract must absolutely specifically indicate that they will provide tail coverage.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not sure if this is even the right place to put this. I'm a third year family medicine resident, and I just got an offer in California. I liked the practice a lot. Nothing in the contract really sticks out as a dealbreaker, other than this clause at the end that says I can be fired for any reason. I'm going to be taking a considerable risk relocating to the other end of the country, and I want to protect myself. Any thoughts? Before you say it, yes, I do plan on getting a lawyer.

If you can be fired at any time, make sure that there is no noncompete clause attached, or that the noncompete clause is voided in the case of you being fired, as a noncompete paired with that would essentially mean you'd not only be fired, but ejected from the community without notice.

 

[VenusinFurs]

There is no noncompete clause and I've been told by my law student friend in California that noncompetes are generally a no-go there.

I have also gotten a real lawyer who will look over it. He's active in the bar and everything.

I just got off the phone with the corporate recruiter for the health center, and he was like "oh, sorry, that's a typo left over from something else," and "oh, I"m not sure about that thing but I will find out for you." I am like really confused- do people just sign contracts there without reading them? Do they not proofread contracts before sending them out? This is a kind of important document, it seems like you'd take some time on it.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

There is no noncompete clause and I've been told by my law student friend in California that noncompetes are generally a no-go there.

I have also gotten a real lawyer who will look over it. He's active in the bar and everything.

I just got off the phone with the corporate recruiter for the health center, and he was like "oh, sorry, that's a typo left over from something else," and "oh, I"m not sure about that thing but I will find out for you." I am like really confused- do people just sign contracts there without reading them? Do they not proofread contracts before sending them out? This is a kind of important document, it seems like you'd take some time on it.

No, most people read them and get a lawyer to at least tell you what you need to know. I hired a lawyer to look at my contract and they helped me negotiate an out clause in case things take a wrong turn. They also helped to clarify some of the language and determine what I was willing to accept. The recruiter is not your friend and he or she could care less if you're satisfied.

 

[Law2Doc]

I just got off the phone with the corporate recruiter for the health center, and he was like "oh, sorry, that's a typo left over from something else," and "oh, I"m not sure about that thing but I will find out for you." I am like really confused- do people just sign contracts there without reading them? Do they not proofread contracts before sending them out? This is a kind of important document, it seems like you'd take some time on it.

You are expected to read everything you sign, and in a court you are going to be held to a pretty high standard of knowledgeability (ie the stock clerk signing an employment contract might be allowed to say "I didn't understand what I was signing" in situations where a professional would not.) that being said there are definitely "take it or leave it" situations in medicine where you have no negotiating power and won't get any changes regardless of how much you read it or how good a lawyer you have. Residency contracts being the obvious example, but in certain competitive fields and markets there are others.

Careful about noncompetes though -- just because you may work and sign a contract in a state where they aren't enforced ( assuming arguendo that your friend is right) that doesn't mean the contract is necessarilly enforced there -- you need to read the choice of law and jurisdiction clauses. I've seen contracts executed in one state that by their terms had to be sued upon in totally different states, with the laws of yet a third state applied -- if there's enough nexus a court may allow that. Which again is why having an actual lawyer read the contract is important. He might not be able to get anything changed but at least you can understand what you are agreeing to going in. And right now with the glut in the legal market, finding a lawyer for a reasonable hourly fee shouldn't be too tough. They all want to get in good with doctors.

 

[Mad Jack]

There is no noncompete clause and I've been told by my law student friend in California that noncompetes are generally a no-go there.

I have also gotten a real lawyer who will look over it. He's active in the bar and everything.

I just got off the phone with the corporate recruiter for the health center, and he was like "oh, sorry, that's a typo left over from something else," and "oh, I"m not sure about that thing but I will find out for you." I am like really confused- do people just sign contracts there without reading them? Do they not proofread contracts before sending them out? This is a kind of important document, it seems like you'd take some time on it.

This isn't an EULA, it's your life. You're doing the right thing by going over it with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[Crayola227]

There is no noncompete clause and I've been told by my law student friend in California that noncompetes are generally a no-go there.

I have also gotten a real lawyer who will look over it. He's active in the bar and everything.

I just got off the phone with the corporate recruiter for the health center, and he was like "oh, sorry, that's a typo left over from something else," and "oh, I"m not sure about that thing but I will find out for you." I am like really confused- do people just sign contracts there without reading them? Do they not proofread contracts before sending them out? This is a kind of important document, it seems like you'd take some time on it.

LOL. Docs are often so lazy and stupid when it comes to legal matters.

And "being active in the bar and everything" is ridiculous standard for an attorney.
Always look for an attorney who has actual direct experience in the state with employment issues specfically, doctor's contracts specifically, and get a lawyer with malpractice experience (they can help you look at that part of the contract), and a lawyer with experience with the medical board, the last two are just good to have in your back pocket if anything comes up. You don't want to be scrambling for good lawyers so do your homework.

Also go over laws pertaining to the medical board and malpractice etc in your state. Know your rights.

You can look online for these lawyers, look at reviews, call the bar association, and if there's a lawyer you know is solid you can also ask them for references for these lawyers they respect if they happen to know them.

If anything happens in the course of your work, like anything pear-shaped, always be sure to DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. Sign and date immediately anything you write up about what's said and done (like if you get pulled into a meeting because a nurse writes a bitchy report about you), as close to verbatim as you can. Save in perpetuity any emails about that sort of thing. Go get them notarized too so you have the notary date. If it's a one-party recording state use that to your advantage too.

Yes if **** goes down suing is not going to help you keep the job if they want you gone, but having dirt to threaten legal action can get you nice things, like severance packages, confidentiality agreements, LORs for the next job, agreements that the hospital won't sue YOU going forward, etc etc.

 

[Law2Doc]

LOL. Docs are often so lazy and stupid when it comes to legal matters.

And "being active in the bar and everything" is ridiculous standard for an attorney.
Always look for an attorney who has actual direct experience in the state with employment issues specfically, doctor's contracts specifically, and get a lawyer with malpractice experience (they can help you look at that part of the contract), and a lawyer with experience with the medical board, the last two are just good to have in your back pocket if anything comes up. You don't want to be scrambling for good lawyers so do your homework.

Also go over laws pertaining to the medical board and malpractice etc in your state. Know your rights.

You can look online for these lawyers, look at reviews, call the bar association, and if there's a lawyer you know is solid you can also ask them for references for these lawyers they respect if they happen to know them.

If anything happens in the course of your work, like anything pear-shaped, always be sure to DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. Sign and date immediately anything you write up about what's said and done (like if you get pulled into a meeting because a nurse writes a bitchy report about you), as close to verbatim as you can. Save in perpetuity any emails about that sort of thing. Go get them notarized too so you have the notary date. If it's a one-party recording state use that to your advantage too.

Yes if **** goes down suing is not going to help you keep the job if they want you gone, but having dirt to threaten legal action can get you nice things, like severance packages, confidentiality agreements, LORs for the next job, agreements that the hospital won't sue YOU going forward, etc etc.

Rather than notarized it, one cheaper trick people sometimes do is just mail it to themselves and don't open the envelope when you get it back. The postmark on a sealed envelope provides the date.