Atls & acls

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ap4uga

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I start my orientation next week with ACLS and ATLS. I was wondering what advance prep needs to be done for these? Should I read the manuals? Just skim? Nothing? Any insight from those who have been through the courses would be helpful. The moving process sucks hard, and I'm trying to minimize unnecessary effort. Thanks in advance.

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Both of these have a pretests that have to be completed before you arrive at the class (but if you get every question wrong I don't think they do anything to you). For ACLS they presume you have read the book entirely. For ATLS not everything in the book is taught during the sessions. The high points are hit, but you could miss some questions on the test if you haven't read the book by the time you finish. Since ATLS is only two days (and the first day is pretty long) you don't have a lot of time during the class to read it. If you want to do the very least, you could probably get by just reading the intro and summary to each chapter. You have a written test as well as a scenario simulation, and it would really suck to go through the whole course and fail since you didn't get a good enough handle on things because you didn't want to read ahead of time.
 
Both of these have a pretests that have to be completed before you arrive at the class (but if you get every question wrong I don't think they do anything to you). For ACLS they presume you have read the book entirely. For ATLS not everything in the book is taught during the sessions. The high points are hit, but you could miss some questions on the test if you haven't read the book by the time you finish. Since ATLS is only two days (and the first day is pretty long) you don't have a lot of time during the class to read it. If you want to do the very least, you could probably get by just reading the intro and summary to each chapter. You have a written test as well as a scenario simulation, and it would really suck to go through the whole course and fail since you didn't get a good enough handle on things because you didn't want to read ahead of time.

I haven't done ATLS, but for ACLS - if I hadn't already known the algorithms, I would have failed the simulation. They spent four hours having us watch worthless videos but never actually thoroughly went through the drug algorithms.

Be smart - know what they are going to test you on. All of the code scenarios start with "something" (brady, tachy, etc) then progress to vfib, then to PEA. You need to know the algorithms for vfib and PEA cold.
 
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Do the pre-tests and know the material tested on the pre-tests for both. It takes some time to go through the material in the books but once you get the answers to the pre-tests you should be fine. The skills stations are great for ATLS.
 
And yes, they do fail people in these courses. This is especially a problem if you fail ATLS as the trauma organizations expect the members of the surgical team to be atls certified. There is no reason to fail. But, every year folks do not take it seriously and do fail.
 
also keep in mind that at some atls courses, there are instructors who are er doctors and they really like to screw with the surgery residents. i've seen some interesting scenarios with these guys.

i find the best way is to just tell them what they want to hear and avoid confrontation. the quicker the course is over, the quicker you can go to the bar and start drinking.
 
In my ATLS course there were a scary number of failures (I think there were 17 of us and at least five that I know of failed, but I left before almost half the class was finished the written exam). Some were even already through intern year (career changers). It's not really that tough as long as you take it seriously, as others have said. And it's very useful info, I think.
 
...There is no reason to fail...
Just take these classes seriously and you'll pass with no problems...
...It's not really that tough as long as you take it seriously, as others have said...
For new PGY1 surgery residents, I hope you recognize the theme.
...i find the best way is to just tell them what they want to hear and avoid confrontation. the quicker the course is over, the quicker you can go to the bar and start drinking.
I think in surgery resident this is generally a good philosophy. It is especially helpful after five years when you are sitting in the hotel room taking your certifying exam:scared:
 
Wow, Columbia must suck, since we didn't have anything other than the four-hour teaching session (no books, no simulations) where we were spoon-fed answers. Then we took the test. Surprise! We all passed! And EMS dudes taught us, not anyone from the med school.
 
Wow...we didn't have anything other than the four-hour teaching session (no books, no simulations) where we were spoon-fed answers. Then we took the test...We all passed!...
I agree, sounds like a spoon fed formality course. I believe the national standards for ACLS & ATLS have standardized curriculum that does involve prior course study materials (i.e. books), an actual course with practice sessions, practice tests, etc....
 
So my group just finished it too. We had a pretest which we were suppose to take after reading the ATLS book. Then took a two day course (half skills sessions, half lectures) ending with a written test and standardized pt. exam. I would be lying though if I said the main instructor didn't help us out by quizzing us with very similar quiz questions throughout the course. Was co-taught by Trauma and EM attendings. All in all it was actually a really good course!
 
Wow, Columbia must suck, since we didn't have anything other than the four-hour teaching session (no books, no simulations) where we were spoon-fed answers. Then we took the test. Surprise! We all passed! And EMS dudes taught us, not anyone from the med school.

Are we talking about ATLS? From what I understand, you usually have to be a physician to be an instructor. At least that's what it said the one and only time I read the instructor manual a long time ago.
 
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I'm pretty sure extenders can't be ATLS course instructors (teach ATLS to physician and physician extender students). They could become ATLS educators (teach the instructor candidates how to teach ATLS to other people-when I took the instructor course there were even a few non healthcare educators).

They have special ATLS student courses where extenders are allowed because the primary focus is on teaching physicians (extenders can't be ATLS certified which is why I think they can't be ATLS instructors), but if there is an extender who wants the info taught in the class (let's say you have a PA or NP that is on your trauma service, or works in an ER where they might have to work with trauma patients) they are allowed to take the course (but not comprise more than 25% of the class).
 
In our ATLS class there are some extenders (paramedics, emergency room nurses & techs) who are auditing the course. They do not take the exam but sit through all the lectures and do the skills stations with us. All of the instructors, however, are either EM or Trauma/CC Surgeons.
 
In our ATLS class there are some extenders (paramedics, emergency room nurses & techs) who are auditing the course. They do not take the exam but sit through all the lectures and do the skills stations with us. All of the instructors, however, are either EM or Trauma/CC Surgeons.

I'm not saying that they can't be ATLS certified...I'm saying that they are usually not allowed to be instructors...so they wouldn't be present in an ATLS Instructor Course, and they wouldn't be teaching ATLS.
 
how to get to pretest.
 
My ATLS instructor certification expired around 2yrs ago. However, my understanding is thus:

1. non-physicians "audit" the course
2. non-physicians that have audited the course can teach components but are not ATLS instructor certified
3. I don't recall any restrictions on physicians having to be surgeons to teach/be instructors. Granted, I believe everyone in my instructor course was a "surgeon"... we had ortho, ent, and neurosurgeons taking the instructor course. I think in general, it just doesn't make sense for someone that will not spend any significant time dealing with traumas to beatls cert or atls instructor cert. I guess an FP/pediatrician/etc.. could in the community do a bit of ED/trauma type stuff. But, beyond that, I am not sure why a hospitalist, radiologist, psych, etc... would spend the time to that involved in ATLS.
 
I take atls every 4 yrs.
since 2008 pa's have been able to take ATLS and "fully participate" in all stations and exams. my most recent cert card says:
"emedpa" is recognized as having successfully completed the ATLS course in it's entirety"
we pay full price for the course.($750)
if you fail the written or the practical you don't get a card.
ACS doesn't call that a cert card. everyone else does.
prior to 2008 we just got a cme certificate and a letter from the program director stating that we met all course objectives.
 
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The algorithms for ACLS and PALS need to be memorized.
 
Wow, Columbia must suck, since we didn't have anything other than the four-hour teaching session (no books, no simulations) where we were spoon-fed answers. Then we took the test. Surprise! We all passed! And EMS dudes taught us, not anyone from the med school.

I would guess that BD is talking about ACLS or even BCLS which I believe is more often taught to medical students and can be shoehorned into an afternoon. Either one can be taught by EMS providers who have taken the instructor course.
 

They probably meant that the algorithm (AKA flowchart on your little pocket cards and in both books for ACLS and PALS) should be memorized for successful completion of the written and megacode practical exams. It really isn't a matter of memorization once you've done it a few times, as things make sense (don't give atropine to a tachy with pulses, etc). Drug dosages need to be memorized but they've made them very simple just for that. Plus, honestly, it's not the drugs that really matter unless someone is getting an antidote to a toxin. It's high-quality uninterrupted CPR that gets people to the point of discharge alive.

It looks like a scary amount of memorization when you first glance at the cards, and everything starts to look/sound alike, but if you learn it as a situational application things you do are logical and it's easier to remember (at least for me) than relying on rote memorization.

That said, you DO need to have down cold the ACLS algorithms for PEA/VF/VT and tachy with pulses (made more difficult only because of classificaiton into narrow/wide QRS and regular/irregular pathways). Brady is pretty easy and logical. ACS and stroke (also covered in ACLS) should have already been hammered in during med/PA school.
 
I take atls every 4 yrs.
since 2008 pa's have been able to take ATLS and "fully participate" in all stations and exams. my most recent cert card says:
"emedpa" is recognized as having successfully completed the ATLS course in it's entirety"...

ACS doesn't call that a cert card. everyone else does.
prior to 2008 we just got a cme certificate and a letter from the program director stating that we met all course objectives.
I haven't taught or taken the course in around two years. Things may have changed. I know documentation and/or cards may have been given to everyone. However, I am not sure what those cards say relative to each other. That is to say, does the card you were issued say the same thing as the card issued to physicians. Does it state you are a provider? My cards have stated, "...is recognized as having successfully completed the ATLS course for doctors according to the standards established by ACS Committee on trauma".

As a resident and subsequently an instructor, I was under the impression that the ACS was the governing body in regards to this course and what documentation means. You yourself are stating, "ACS doesn't call that a cert card". Yes, you went to the course. Yes, you received knowledge and training. But, I may be wrong, ACS regards certified providers as having primary physician education as a foundation on which the ATLS is taught. Further, the description of the current course is below.
ATLS ® for Doctors Student Manual with DVD, 8th Edition
08T-0002

The ATLS® Program was developed to teach doctors one safe, reliable method for assessing and initially managing the trauma patient. The course teaches an organized approach for evaluation and management of seriously injured patients and offers a foundation of common knowledge for all members of the trauma team. The emphasis is on the critical "first hour" of care, focusing on initial assessment, lifesaving intervention, reevaluation, stabilization, and, when needed, transfer to a trauma center. This publication was written for use in ATLS® Student Courses and is updated approximately every four years. This 8th edition manual, released in October 2008, features over 100 color images and includes a DVD with skills from the course demonstrated in video segments...
What others may regard of your documentation isn't really relavent if the teaching and governing body has a different opinion as to what they trained you to do and what your role is within the trauma scheme.
 
I appreciate FDoRoML schooling me on the reason for memorizing the algorithms. I think I've done it a *few* times. 😀

You crack me up! Though I was schooling others who might read the thread wondering about ACLS (though we were clearly on an ATLS pathway of late). That was kind of a random statement thrown into the middle of a discussion on ATLS instruction, etc. If an outsider came in and started reading posts, it could seem like someone suggested that ACLS and PALS algorithms were necessary for ATLS... 😳
 
You crack me up! Though I was schooling others who might read the thread wondering about ACLS (though we were clearly on an ATLS pathway of late). That was kind of a random statement thrown into the middle of a discussion on ATLS instruction, etc. If an outsider came in and started reading posts, it could seem like someone suggested that ACLS and PALS algorithms were necessary for ATLS... 😳

Gotcha...since you responded to my post, I thought you were schooling me. 😛
 
What others may regard of your documentation isn't really relavent if the teaching and governing body has a different opinion as to what they trained you to do and what your role is within the trauma scheme.

We take the same course and have to perform to the same standards in the same "role" in order to get a card. we don't take a course in "atls assisting". we have to run the megacodes and do all the procedures....and pay full price for the course...
the place I take atls at doesn't have titles on anyones badges for the course. they say "john smith", not john smith, md or john smith, pa. all the students are treated exactly the same way. for all they know I could be an ed attending, an fp resident, or an ent intern. in fact after my last course I was asked if I had considered being an instructor and I said" pa's can teach atls?" and the guy said " you're a pa?"....so obviously he had no clue.
I don't know why acs doesn't consider this certification. surgeons......
All of my employers do and they are the ones that matter.
I have been taking this course for a long time. the first time I took it they wouldn't even give me a cme certificate but the course director wrote me a great letter including all my passing scores on the various sections. a decade ago they started giving pa's cme certificates. now we get a card. progress.....
 
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also keep in mind that at some atls courses, there are instructors who are er doctors and they really like to screw with the surgery residents. i've seen some interesting scenarios with these guys.

When I was an EM intern, one of the ATLS instructors at Duke was a general surgeon who took it upon himself to give me a scenario that was completely unrealistic, and he told me right up front that I could not complete it correctly (like the Kobayashi Maru without the leadership component).

It goes both ways.
 
we have to run the megacodes and do all the procedures....and pay full price for the course...

I PAYED MY MONEY! MY MONEY SAME AS YOUR MONEY! MY CERT SAME AS YOUR CERT!

I mean this is like saying if I take the 'final uber-econ course' at my local business school and pass it, I should be awarded an econ degree without having taken the entire pre-requisite series of classes. If ACS says that the SOLE requirement for ATLS cert is to take the course and pass it, great. If they say that the requirement is an MD or DO PLUS the course, well, they're the certifying body. Oh well.
 
I PAYED MY MONEY! MY MONEY SAME AS YOUR MONEY! MY CERT SAME AS YOUR CERT!

I mean this is like saying if I take the 'final uber-econ course' at my local business school and pass it, I should be awarded an econ degree without having taken the entire pre-requisite series of classes. If ACS says that the SOLE requirement for ATLS cert is to take the course and pass it, great. If they say that the requirement is an MD or DO PLUS the course, well, they're the certifying body. Oh well.

In all fairness to emedpa, I agree with him. If you're taking the exact same course but can't get full recognized certification, then I think they should pay a lower price.

On a wholely unrelated note, I noticed that ACS costs more for fellows/members than it does for non-members. Usually conferences are the other way around...I've never noticed this before. Anyone know the reason?
 
In all fairness to emedpa, I agree with him. If you're taking the exact same course but can't get full recognized certification, then I think they should pay a lower price...
I appreciate what you are saying.... However, I think it is a matter of roles and what the philosphy as to each level of care provider being taught. The course is taught on certain foundations of medical skill. You could teach high school student or college undergrad the entire course, have them go through every aspect of the course. It would cost the same to teach/run the course for the high school student or college undergrad as it would to teach an MD. However, they lack the basic foundation training an MD has. So, I would not say they are equally certified just because they paid the same bill.

There are literally numerous examples of folks around the country studying for tests and passing without the pre-requisite course work foundation.... The lawyer bar exam is one example that comes to mind. Paying for the exam and passing it does not equate to being qualified as an attorney. This same type situation is why many off-shore medical training programs are not recognized. They study and then pay the same for their USMLEs.... but are lacking in the requisite foundation. But, they paid the same amount, took the same series of exams, right? (before someone changes this into an island school debate... it's not. there are accredited and respected off-shore programs)

Yes, a PA/NP can take the entire course. But, the end expectation after completing said course is very different. That is clearly expressed in the course description, "The ATLS® Program was developed to teach doctors ...initially managing the trauma patient". emedpa clearly is aware of this when choosing to take the course. emedpa clearly states an understanding as to what the ACS position is on his/her status at completion of the course, "ACS doesn't call that a cert card". I appreciate that midlevels play an important role on the team. That is why they go through the course.

This "we are equal" argument seems to permiate everything. While it is more common an argument, IMHO, from NPs, it does seem to be alive and well amongst some PAs. The PA may pay the same for the end course. However, he/she has not paid the up front foundation on which this course is built by the ACS committee on trauma.

Thus, i must disagree with WS....:meanie:
 
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Yes, a PA/NP can take the entire course. But, the end expectation after completing said course is very different. /QUOTE]

this is where we disagree. the expectation is exactly the same. if the course included SURGICAL MANAGEMENT OF TRAUMA( how to perform a splenectomy, thoracotomy, etc) I would agree that it should only be given to surgeons.
at the conclusion of the course I am expected(by my physician colleagues and the hospitals I work for as well as the atls instructors themselves) to be able to evaluate and stabilize a trauma pt and direct them to the appropriate definitive care( ie a trauma surgeon).
I work in a rural dept a few days/mo ( exactly what the course is designed for by the way...the course was designed by surgeons for non-surgeons to undertstand trauma evaluation and tx, especially in areas without a surgeon immediately available)
and utilize these exact skills to prioritize my interventions and make decisions such as which pt goes by lifeflight to the trauma ctr and which goes by ground, etc
I understand the mentality of acs but the truth of the matter is that I have a far better grasp and utilization of this material than the fp interns who frequently take this course alongside me. many of them have never put in a chest tube, intuabted a pt in c-spine precautions, or evaluated a trauma pt during their entire medschool experience. not to toot my own horn but I did trauma surgery rotations in school while most folks (both md and pa) did general surgery. I also understand trauma from the field level through the o.r. having participated in trauma evaluation and treatment as a paramedic and later a member of a prominent east coast trauma team (washington hospital medstar in d.c.).
yes, I'm not a surgeon. yes, I'm not a doctor. but it is possible to master this course and score in the top 10% alongside physicians without having gone to medschool.
it's funny that acs has this position when all other "physician level courses" such as fccs and apls give full certification to pa's. if anything I would think fccs would take the physician centric view as most ICU management taught in that course is more involved than cookbook trauma management.
p.s. thanks WS. at least someone gets it.....
 
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We will probably go in circles... Maybe the course has dramatically changed since I taught it a couple years ago and the course description has not kept up with what the course is designed for....
this is where we disagree. the expectation is exactly the same. if the course included SURGICAL MANAGEMENT OF TRAUMA( how to perform a splenectomy, thoracotomy, etc) I would agree that it should only be given to surgeons...
But...this is my understanding of the course:
ATLS ® for Doctors Student Manual with DVD, 8th Edition
08T-0002

The ATLS® Program was developed to teach doctors one safe, reliable method for assessing and initially managing the trauma patient. The course teaches an organized approach for evaluation and management of seriously injured patients and offers a foundation of common knowledge for all members of the trauma team...
At every course I took up until 2 years ago, trauma crichs, chest tubes, DPLs, and thorocotomies were all taught. Then, we proceeded to an animal lab to practice these intial skills. Generally, the ED and surgery residents/physicians would get additional training and experience to expand on this foundation course through their actual practice or residency. But, yes, trauma management by physician leaders of the team was fundamental.
...the course was designed by surgeons for non-surgeons to undertstand trauma evaluation and tx, especially in areas without a surgeon immediately available...
Agreed. As the course description says, "Program was developed to teach DOCTORS one safe, reliable method for assessing and initially managing the trauma patient."
...I understand the mentality of acs ...but it is possible to master this course and score in the top 10% alongside physicians without having gone to medschool...
It seems you do not understand the ACS position. The course description & position seems clear to any reader. Yes, you can study and pass without medical school. As I stated, a high school student or undergrad could do so as well! The point/position of the ACS, as I understand it, is this course is built on a certain foundation of education. Different members of the team will have different foundations and thus different degrees of ~certification. The course was developed for physicians. It also provides "a foundation of common knowledge for all members of the trauma team". This would include NPs/PAs/RNs/etc.... The common foundation of knowledge in and of itself does not certify you. That is my understanding why ACS does not consider you as certified as a PA.

But, again, i defer to the ACS committee on trauma. I have not taken or taught the course in a couple years and maybe the position and content has changed.
 
no more animal labs. it's all done on "sim man" mannequins now. I have done the course both with and without animal labs a total of 4 times at 3 facilities.
there are no "special modules" for surgeons and er docs. all participants do the same rotations through the same stations and practice the same skills and take the same written and skills tests.
the first time I took the class we saw a demo of a thoracotomy on a pig but it has never been a core rotation skill although crichs, chest tubes, dpl, cut downs, central lines, pericardiocentesis, etc are always covered.
 
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When I took ATLS 4 years ago, there was not an animal lab component. Never even heard an animal lab mentioned as something they'd phased out...
 
...there are no "special modules" for surgeons and er docs. all participants do the same rotations through the same stations and practice the same skills and take the same written and skills tests...
Yes, I know. I did not intend to imply that.
...Generally, the ED and surgery residents/physicians would get additional training and experience to expand on this foundation course through their actual practice or residency...
My point was that either through ongoing residency or practice... physicians continue further to MANAGE trauma (in addition to their medical school foundation... of which most med students spend quite some time on trauma). Thus, surgery/ER/Ortho/etc... residents or practicing attendings will ikely have hands on in their regular life. surgery residents/anesthesia/ed may all rotate on different services in which some of the procedures used for trauma may be performed in non-emergent scenarios.... i.e. cut downs, thoracic aorta & thorocotomy, surgical airway, etc....
When I took ATLS 4 years ago, there was not an animal lab component. Never even heard an animal lab mentioned as something they'd phased out...
may be different in different areas of the country. every course I was involved with either taking it or teaching it had animal labs. The books, I believe, also referenced lab practicals.
 
There was an animal lab when I took it for the first time, but that was a long time ago. They did not have it when we renewed (which is probably standard); not sure if the newbies had to do one.

BTW, my comment above about the course was not meant as a POV on whether or not midlevels should or should not take the same course as physicians. I merely feel that if one *is* taking the same course but not getting the same benefit (ie, a certificate) then they should not be paying full price, as while it may cost the same to run the course regardless of whom is taking it, there are additional costs for certification. At least that's how every other course I've taken is (ie, taking for credit costs more than simply auditing).
 
There was an animal lab when I took it for the first time, but that was a long time ago. They did not have it when we renewed (which is probably standard); not sure if the newbies had to do one...
That's good for the pigs. I am not really a fan of anesthetized live animal labs but often they are a ~"necessary evil". They seemed fairly useful in ATLS, especially when doing a thor and aorta clamp or even chest tubes. The sim men I have used usually have a pre fab hole to place the tube in.... not really the same as tha feeling when popping into the pleura.
...if one *is* taking the same course but not getting the same benefit (ie, a certificate) then they should not be paying full price, as while it may cost the same to run the course regardless of whom is taking it, there are additional costs for certification. At least that's how every other course I've taken is (ie, taking for credit costs more than simply auditing).
Again, i am not sure there is a disparity in costs to produce a physician card vs PA/NP/other card and or database one's participation in the course. I know back when we gave it to non-physicians some years ago it was more of an ~audit and there was no card. I don't know if the cost was less then then it is now. Maybe issuing the card now represents an increased cost over the previos letter approach:meanie:. But, I will again defer to the ACS committe on trauma.
 
They have some decent sim aids now. They do a decent job of simulating the feel of pleura, fascia, peritoneum. The ED thoracotomy isn't taught in the course now (not in simulation, and not as a how to in the book) The thought is that if you are theaching people who are not at trauma facilities, there is no real role to the thoracotomy (since there is no surgeon available at many of these facilities). The focus is more on early recognition of who needs to get shipped out, and keeping people from delaying transport while they do stuff like imaging.

They still have the option of animal lab that they discuss in the instructor course, but I would guess most places have switched to simulations of some sort.

Much of the principles of ATLS are similar to things like PHTLS/BTLS (prehospital). I'm surprised no one has thought to modify the course for ancillary staff. Sort of a basic trauma life support specifically for in hospital people. I say the more people who know their role and how to assist the physician, the better. That way the people worried about MD turf getting stepped on could relax, as there would be a different level of certification for non physician providers.
 
...The ED thoracotomy isn't taught in the course now (not in simulation, and not as a how to in the book) The thought is that if you are theaching people who are not at trauma facilities, there is no real role to the thoracotomy...
I'm glad for that. I made an argument to eliminate it. At the time, I was told it was included because it was quite gee wizz and really excited the non-surgeon physicians.

The problem I had was that many of the non-surgeon physicians then tried to argue about why they should perform ED thorocotomies... maybe even pre-transfer. The, "well I am taught to do it, wouldn't I be failing if I didn't at least try to do something for a dying patient" argument constantly came up during these courses. Of course, the general surgeons with experience and practice appreciated that just because you are dying out in a community hospital does not mean you should be subjected to an ED thorocotomy before you died.

So, if it is true, I am glad ED thorocotomies are no longer a component of ATLS.
 
...I am expected(by my physician colleagues and the hospitals I work for as well as the atls instructors themselves) to be able to evaluate and stabilize a trauma pt and direct them to the appropriate definitive care( ie a trauma surgeon)...

...I work in a rural dept a few days/mo...and utilize these exact skills to prioritize my interventions and make decisions such as which pt goes by lifeflight to the trauma ctr and which goes by ground, etc...


...have never put in a chest tube, intuabted a pt in c-spine precautions, or evaluated a trauma pt during their entire medschool experience. not to toot my own horn...

Just so that I understand, where exactly is the ER physician while you are assessing, evaluating, intubating, thoracostomating, stabilizing, and making transfer arrangements for these trauma patients?

I'm not saying you don't do these things, I'm just wondering what the attending physician is doing that's more important than the major trauma case that just rolled in? I may be a mere 'tern in waiting, but I'm not sure that the ACS's intention with ATLS is to train mid-level providers and/or physician extenders to be 'replacements' for an actual physician taking care of trauma patients in the ER.
 
Just so that I understand, where exactly is the ER physician while you are assessing, evaluating, intubating, thoracostomating, stabilizing, and making transfer arrangements for these trauma patients?

at my rural job the doc will be treating one of the other unstable pts from the multi casualty incident while I have my own pts....it's not uncommon at this particular er to have several critical trauma pts at one time and with just 2 of us there we each manage our fair share.

you may not be aware of this but there are rural level 4 ed's all over the country that don't staff physicians at all. the entire e.d. staff is pa's with an available on call doc available for phone consults.
this is very common in vermont, maine, texas, georgia, montana, minnesota, alaska, hawaii, and other similar rural states.

here is a recent ad for such a job:

SOUTHWEST GEORGIA RURAL ER!
Rural Southwest Georgia Hospital has IMMEDIATE opening for Physician Assistant in the emergency room. Join team of two other PAs in sharing coverage duties. Must have at least three years experience in an emergency room and be capable of independent practice with off site physician backup. acls/atls/pals required. Solo position requires comfort with a full range of medical and trauma patients.
Great quality of life in rural, agricultural based community with easy access to larger cities. Excellent hospital system with long history of physician assistant utilization. Salary $85-90K to start with bonus structure. exceptional cafeteria-style benefit package including paid CME, professional memberships, licensure, malpractice insurance, retirement and relocation!

and another( I have 3 friends who work here. no doc on site, ATLS required):

Experienced Emergency PA-C For Two Week On/ Two Week Off Rotation
Job #: 1075247
Beacon Occupational Health and Safety Services
Prudhoe Bay, Alaska

Beacon is currently recruiting experienced Emergency Care PA-C's who would like working a two week on two week off work rotation on the North Slope of Alaska. While on all expenses are all paid for.

Physician Assistant
Two Week On/ Two Week Off Work Rotation

Description: Physician Assistant North Slope, Alaska


This position will be located on the North Slope at a Beacon medical facility. The workforce consists of oil field contractor employees. The number of employees varies considerably due to construction stages, drilling operations, maintenance and operating.

Roles & Responsibilities:
Provides acute and occupational medical care to on-site employees. Responds to emergency situations (medical, fire and spills). Stabilizes seriously ill and injured patients and arranges emergency air evacuation to hospitals in Anchorage or Fairbanks.
Principal Accountabilities:
1. Responds primarily to emergency situations on the North Slope. Provides leadership and supervision to the EMTs of the Medical Emergency Response Team. Directs triage, patient transport, and medical supervision at mass casualty incidents. Interfaces with other response team sections. Maintains readiness of emergency vehicles and supplies.
2. Determines the need for emergency air evacuation of seriously ill or injured patients to appropriate medical centers in Anchorage and Fairbanks.
3. Diagnoses and treats illnesses and injuries of the workforce according to collaborative agreement with the supervising physicians.
4. Conducts laboratory, radiological and electro-cardiograph diagnostic procedures as required.
5. Refers patients to appropriate consulting physicians and dentists within Alaska when the scope of required medical care is beyond the capabilities of the medical facility.
6. Prescribes and dispenses appropriate pharmaceuticals including controlled substances as approved by the supervising physician, within the scope of the collaborative agreement and in accordance with DEA regulations.
7. Leads and participates in weekly training sessions of the MERT (Medical Emergency Response Team). Participates in MERT, ERT, and SRT drills.

Experience:
Graduate of an American Medical Association (AMA) accredited Physician Assistant training program. Maintains professional certification with the National Commission on Certification of Physician Assistants (NCCPA) and State of Alaska licensure (or eligible to apply of State of AK Lic). Maintains emergency medicine skills through specific training (Advanced Cardiac Life Support, Advanced Burn Life Support, Advanced Trauma Life Support). Have or obtain appropriate certifications in Occupational Medicine Testing, CAOHC and NIOSH, weather observation as required by the client. Preferred candidates will have a minimum of 5 years remote site/independent duty or ED experience.
Education:
Graduate of an American Medical Association (AMA) accredited Physician Assistant training program.
Certifications:
Graduate of an American Medical Association (AMA) accredited Physician Assistant training program. Maintains professional certification with the National Commission on Certification of Physician Assistants (NCCPA) and State of Alaska licensure. Maintains emergency medicine skills through specific training (Advanced Cardiac Life Support, Advanced Burn Life Support, Advanced Trauma Life Support).
Compensation ranges from 119,000 to 133,000, with the opportunity to earn much more. Beacon offers, Medical, Dental, Vision, Life, Long Term Disability, 401(k) with a company matching plus more.

look at the entire er staff of this mayo affiliated hospital(yup, I have a friend who works here too)
waseca medical ctr., minnesota. er staff is 6 pa's.


there are also many fine pa em and critical care residencies available now that train pa's in trauma and critical care.. see www.appap.org for links
this one has a mission statement that it trains em pa's for solo practice:
http://www.healthcare.uiowa.edu/EmergencyMedicine/paResidency.html

my point from all of the above is that there are places(more than you would think) that the pa runs the traumas and therefore needs all the skills provided in an atls course.
as is the case with my buddy who works solo in the aleutians sometimes the nearest doc is 6 hrs away.....
 
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