Atmosphere at your Path residency program?

[stormjen]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I am wondering what the atmosphere is like at other residency programs. By "atmosphere", I refer to the social aspects, the seriousness, the rigorousness. E.g. do people spend all their free time during the day reading or chatting? Are the attendings lenient or strict in maintaining this atmosphere? Is conference attendance excellent or half-assed? Are people always on time or often late? Please share.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I am wondering what the atmosphere is like at other residency programs. By "atmosphere", I refer to the social aspects, the seriousness, the rigorousness. E.g. do people spend all their free time during the day reading or chatting? Are the attendings lenient or strict in maintaining this atmosphere? Is conference attendance excellent or half-assed? Are people always on time or often late? Please share.

We have a good mix in our program. We have a big residents' room which houses about 20 residents and there are certainly times when a few residents are there having light-hearted moments. Attendings aren't bent out of shape about what goes on and some of them will come chat with us.

As for conference attendance, we have a lot of conferences each day and different people pick and choose which ones are suitable to go to based on whatever rotation they happen to be on or what conferences interest them.

 

[yaah]

I'm not sure how to answer this question because we have some of everything.

The first year residents almost uniformly attend the conferences and don't really goof off.

Most of my class ditches the conferences except for me and one other who is patchy in their attendance. A couple ditch conferences because they study. A couple because they are never there that early.

Senior level residents are similar, but most do not come to conferences because they can't manage to get in that early. We have pretty good conference attendance. Supposedly we have to attend 75% over the year, but I highly doubt there are any penalties for missing them because half the residents make less than half of the conferences.

There is some goofing off during the day, but it doesn't really affect work getting done. Kind of happens in the context of getting things done.

 

[deschutes]

Mandatory conference attendance here varies by rotation (generally AP vs. CP) and by site (most sites have their own conferences, though some are joint). Most morning ones start at 8am, which is reasonable. Maybe a quarter of the attendees straggle in.

Some of the CP rotations obviously present the most opportunity to goof off and start questioning the value of your MD 😉 But this doesn't have much correlation with conference attendance - especially if the conference (a) is known to be high-yield, or (b) provides food. Some CPers will take the time to work on research projects and clean up AP stuff. Some read. Some go shopping, spend time with their kids, run errands, catch up with the rest of life. There's lots of time for all that AND sitting on the residents' room couch waiting for signout.

We sign in for conferences and are supposed to make up some percentage of attendance as well, but this hasn't been terribly rigorously enforced in the past. Some people attend and perpetually forget to sign in.

 

[yaah]

We sign in for conferences and are supposed to make up some percentage of attendance as well, but this hasn't been terribly rigorously enforced in the past. Some people attend and perpetually forget to sign in.

We also have people here who "forget" to sign in. Clearly to me they are purposefully not signing in so that when they have their yearly eval, and the program director asks why they don't go to conferences, they can say that they do, they just don't sign in.

 

[beary]

I hate signing in at anything. At the path conferences here there is no sign in sheet.

 

[djmd]

We sign in for conferences and are supposed to make up some percentage of attendance as well, but this hasn't been terribly rigorously enforced in the past. Some people attend and perpetually forget to sign in.

They started "enforcing" the signing sheets for our program recently.
They say thats because other programs do it (nice logic).
The punishment?
You loose your book fund.
The reward?
A sentence in your letter of recomendation, something like
"strong conference attendance", "moderare" "average"...

ohh I'm sure that will seriously affect job searches... Conference attendance?
😕

 

[yaah]

Well, I think conference attendance is part of program accreditation. So if people aren't going to show up, they have to do something about it.

 

[beary]

Well, I think conference attendance is part of program accreditation. So if people aren't going to show up, they have to do something about it.

I have always thought that people will go to conferences if they are good. So if nobody is going, that means the conference/lecture is not good. I think they should improve the lectures instead of just giving a sign in sheet with penalties for not attending. Just my opinion. 🙂

 

[deschutes]

They say thats because other programs do it (nice logic)....
ohh I'm sure that will seriously affect job searches... Conference attendance?
😕

"Other programs do it" hides a multitude of sins.

There's this resident portfolio thing that we're supposed to keep up to date - it comes up once a year before our semi-annual reviews. It doesn't just involve a CV, it involves

* Handouts prepared for conferences
* Documentation of quality assurance activities
* Grand Rounds presentations
* Research proposals
* Annual research progress reports
* Patient presentations
* Reprints of published scholarly work, including clinical studies, scientific articles, clinical reviews, editorials, or letter to the editor
* Unpublished manuscripts of clinical studies, scientific articles, or clinical reviews
* Printouts of case log from the ACGME web site
* Evaluations of oral presentations
* Teaching experience
* Administrative experience, including participation in departmental/medical school/hospital committees

I mean, honestly, chasing down med student evaluations of my lab teaching? I do it, muttering all the time. In a job hunt galaxy far far away, I can see copies of my med student evals attesting to my obsessive-compulsiveness for filing.


P.S. I find it interesting that the poll results are skewed towards "goof off/blow off". I mean, really? At least say that you're working so hard you don't have time for conferences - don't give the clinicians yet another chance to think we're a bunch of slackers 😉

 

[PathOne]

We don't have Residents where I work, but Fellows would be ill-adviced to skip too many of the clinical conferences. However, if you include the research-side confs, I doubt you'd have the chance to do any work. Good thing is that senior attendings are always there - although they can certainly sometimes be brutal towards Fellows making presentations.

 

[stormjen]

At my program, most residents goof off during the day (even the chiefs), the seniors skip a lot of the conferences, and there has been a trend as the year goes on for junior residents to skip more and more. Not only that, but people frequently wander in late.

This bothers me, because I know this kind of crap wouldn't be tolerated in a clinical residency, so I was just wondering if it is unique to our program or common amongst pathology residencies.

From this highly-scientific poll, it does seem like pathology residents do a lot of goofing off and slacking off. This is strange to me, as Pathologists have this huge knowledge base they are supposed to be learning. You'd think we'd have our noses in books all the time.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Where I am at we have daily morning conference (~8am), in which attendance varies based on who is speaking (ie better speaker or more interesting topic=more people come) and weekly noon unknown conferences, which you attend based on how busy you are (ie cutting/frozens or starting post mortem #1 of 2). I think most people skip conference (particularly the noon unknown sessions) here to complete their work rather than to go f-around. Most residents are in at 8 am. We generally "goof off" throughout the day when we are at our desks in the residents room previewing or writing a case up. I dont think anyone shirks their responsibility, you just have to prioritize on a day-to-day basis.

 

[yaah]

I have always thought that people will go to conferences if they are good. So if nobody is going, that means the conference/lecture is not good. I think they should improve the lectures instead of just giving a sign in sheet with penalties for not attending. Just my opinion. 🙂

Well, but part of the problem is that if residents don't take conferences seriously, they are weaker as a result. Part of a good conference is interactive. I feel for the attendings because they often run into one of two issues:

1) If they don't ask for enough participation, people will avoid the conference because they say it is "just a lecture."

2) If they ask for participation, people will avoid the conference or sit there and try to hide because of "pimping."

We have a lot of residents here (I assume it is like this elsewhere) that say nothing at conferences unless they are specifically called on. And some attendings run conferences like this, going around the scope and calling on everyone in turn. But others ask for volunteers, and me and a couple of others will volunteer, but most others won't say anything under pain of death.

 

[yaah]

At my program, most residents goof off during the day (even the chiefs), the seniors skip a lot of the conferences, and there has been a trend as the year goes on for junior residents to skip more and more. Not only that, but people frequently wander in late.

This bothers me, because I know this kind of crap wouldn't be tolerated in a clinical residency, so I was just wondering if it is unique to our program or common amongst pathology residencies.

From this highly-scientific poll, it does seem like pathology residents do a lot of goofing off and slacking off. This is strange to me, as Pathologists have this huge knowledge base they are supposed to be learning. You'd think we'd have our noses in books all the time.

I think this is a problem. It depends who is in charge. Oftentimes, program directors will look the other way. They will encourage conference attendance but not really do anything about it.

It also depends on whether people get their work done. We joke around a lot, but with few exceptions it doesn't impact the work getting done. People work hard, and to be honest probably end up staying later a lot of the time because they weren't efficient and were goofing off. I don't think this is unique to pathology though.

The chief does set the trend though. If he/she doesn't show up or make conferences a priority, they will not be. If they dump work on other people, others will too.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

It also depends on whether people get their work done. We joke around a lot, but with few exceptions it doesn't impact the work getting done. People work hard, and to be honest probably end up staying later a lot of the time because they weren't efficient and were goofing off. I don't think this is unique to pathology though.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's what happens at my program. I have to admit that in the first few months of the year I stayed later. Sure, part of it was because I was at the bottom end of the learning curve and I was less efficient. But for sure, a significant factor was that I goofed around more then too.

Nowadays, I've learned to be more efficient with my time. Of course, I spend some time goofing and joking around to decompress and take a break. But usually nowadays, when I have pockets of free time, I start crackin' away at previewing cases. I usually have that done now, unless I get killed with lots of specimens of course, around 5-6 pm and so I can leave and do other things.

 

[stormjen]

At this morning's 8 am conference, not only did none of the senior residents show up--including the chiefs, neither did the speaker. Not sure why I even bothered.

 

[yaah]

At this morning's 8 am conference, not only did none of the senior residents show up--including the chiefs, neither did the speaker. Not sure why I even bothered.

That's irritating - at my program either the chief or assistant chief shows up to all the conferences with an attendance sheet and to make sure everything is ok. We have occasional conferences where the schedules are messed up or the speaker forgets and the chief contacts appropriate people.

That is a complaint you should make to your program director. I'm sure they would treat it anonymously if you desired.

 

[ResDame]

Keep in mind the ACGME 6 competencies - attending conferences addresses them. If you are in an accredited program and get a site visit, you better believe that when they talk with residents they'll ask about conference attendance.

If your conferences are boring, then speak up at your residents meeting. The program is for you not your attendings! You're the ones who get short changed not them. Take some responsibility - be a leader not a follower...

 

[Pingu]

Our conferences aren't boring, i just don't learn the lecture/conference way. After many years of learning, I've come to figure out the best way for me to learn and it ain't conference. That and my inability to sit still for more than 2 minutes affect my conference attendance

 

[deschutes]

I'm with ya. I mostly treat (the core residency) conferences as scare time, i.e. figuring out the outlines of what I'm supposed to learn. If this were med school, I'd actually go back and read about the topics I heard about. But man, this is a full-time job.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I'm with ya. I mostly treat (the core residency) conferences as scare time, i.e. figuring out the outlines of what I'm supposed to learn. If this were med school, I'd actually go back and read about the topics I heard about. But man, this is a full-time job.

Amen.

Actually, this is more than a full-time job. A 40 hour/week gig is a full-time job.

 

[stormjen]

I think there may be a shake up at my program regarding conference attendance and etiquette. We get a substantial book fund, and the idea has been tossed out to make receiving the full book fund monies contingent on conference attendance.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I think there may be a shake up at my program regarding conference attendance and etiquette. We get a substantial book fund, and the idea has been tossed out to make receiving the full book fund monies contingent on conference attendance.

That's just wrong. I seriously hope this doesn't happen at your program.

 

[yaah]

I think there may be a shake up at my program regarding conference attendance and etiquette. We get a substantial book fund, and the idea has been tossed out to make receiving the full book fund monies contingent on conference attendance.

So are your conferences bad? Or are they bad because no one goes? The attendance at ours has been dropping a bit over the past few weeks. Of course, they end totally at the end of this month and we have three months without most of the conferences. The chief or assistant chief takes attendance at every conference but I don't really know what they do with these sign in sheets. Since I was spared the agony of being assistant chief/chief I will never know

 

[deschutes]

Here only specific conferences get sign-in sheets, e.g. weekly CP conferences, grand rounds, and the resident lectures.

The thing about these sign-in sheets is, once you start attaching something as important as the book fund to it, then all the wacky games start happening. e.g. the responsible person will leave the conference sign-in sheet out but only for the first 15 minutes, because after that it means that you're there late and etc.

I'm with beary: if the conference is any good and if work isn't getting in the way, I will go.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I go to almost every conference because I think they are important and I embrace every learning opportunity.

 

[stormjen]

Our conferences are fine, for the most part. The CP ones tend to be extremely boring, but then I dislike CP intensely, so maybe it's just me. Some residents think we have too many conferences, and the senior residents don't learn as much at the more basic ones, so those may be reasons why attendance is low sometimes.

Surprisingly, I disagree that using the book fund to control resident behavior is wrong. He who giveth can set ground rules and taketh away if they aren't followed. On the other hand, while I have good conference attendance as a first year, I may wish to skip more and more as I advance through the program. I'm sure other residents would be mighty pissed if this were enacted, but how can you be angry at a program that gives you $1500 a year in book money? Even if you take away a little of it, you still have a ton of free money.

 

[stormjen]

Actually, there is one mandatory conference that I stopped attending regularly; it's the conference where the grad students and, occasionally, attendings, present their research. That sounds all well and good, but one time a presenter showed a video of mice being "experimented upon", and since I am opposed to animal research, I was a little offended by that so stopped going.

Now I know this will open up a kettle of worms, since people will say "but you benefit from animal research everyday, you hypocrite, yadda yadda" but in truth I am able to turn a blind eye to it until it's shoved in my face, then I balk.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Our conferences are fine, for the most part. The CP ones tend to be extremely boring, but then I dislike CP intensely, so maybe it's just me. Some residents think we have too many conferences, and the senior residents don't learn as much at the more basic ones, so those may be reasons why attendance is low sometimes.

I agree. I only go to the CP conferences cuz they provide the best lunch. Once in a while, they will present a topic that engages my attention but stuff about random blood tests and quality control puts me to sleep.

Surprisingly, I disagree that using the book fund to control resident behavior is wrong. He who giveth can set ground rules and taketh away if they aren't followed. On the other hand, while I have good conference attendance as a first year, I may wish to skip more and more as I advance through the program. I'm sure other residents would be mighty pissed if this were enacted, but how can you be angry at a program that gives you $1500 a year in book money? Even if you take away a little of it, you still have a ton of free money.

Actually it's not a surprise at all that you feel this way considering you started this thread; clearly you feel strongly about these issues and that's fine. I still respectfully disagree and think that subtractions from the book fund for opting to skip a conference here or there would not sit well with me. Patient care comes first for me. If a conference occasionally interferes with that, then fine, I can't make it. Tough. But monetary penalties is going overboard, IMHO.

But the root of the issue may have to do with the quality of conferences and how the workload is distributed amongst residents on a daily basis. Yes, conferences DO get in the way of work but it is nice to go to them to learn something new amidst the doldrums of daily work. Maybe the timing of conferences can be changed to better accomodate residents' schedules.

Actually, there is one mandatory conference that I stopped attending regularly; it's the conference where the grad students and, occasionally, attendings, present their research. That sounds all well and good, but one time a presenter showed a video of mice being "experimented upon", and since I am opposed to animal research, I was a little offended by that so stopped going.

Now I know this will open up a kettle of worms, since people will say "but you benefit from animal research everyday, you hypocrite, yadda yadda" but in truth I am able to turn a blind eye to it until it's shoved in my face, then I balk.

Well it's a personal choice that should be respected and if they don't, hand them a spoon.

 

[djmd]

but how can you be angry at a program that gives you $1500 a year in book money? Even if you take away a little of it, you still have a ton of free money.

Is that 1500 book/travel fund? or 1500 just for books? Per year?

I ask because our program is bedating increasing our book fund, and our director wants to know what other programs are doing...
We currently get $400 per year, with a seprate travel fund (which is pretty much for presentors and is $1000 per year)

 

[stormjen]

Is that 1500 book/travel fund? or 1500 just for books? Per year?

I ask because our program is bedating increasing our book fund, and our director wants to know what other programs are doing...
We currently get $400 per year, with a seprate travel fund (which is pretty much for presentors and is $1000 per year)

If we're presenting a poster, the department pays for our trip outside of the book fund (so we go for free). If we're not presenting, the expenses come out of our book fund. So $1500 is for books plus conferences where we're not presenting.