Atrophy of skills w/ ambulatory surgery?

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jumpingforjoy

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Does anyone here work mostly in an ambulatory outpatient setting? Is there any worry about the atrophy of skills since most patients coming for outpatient surgeries tend to be healthy (let's say for example, ENT surgical center)?

There's a trade-off between skills vs. easier job...should a doctor consider these centers very early in their careers or should they get a few years of harder cases experience first?

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What you don't use...you lose. Different rates for different people and depends on the skill set, but fundamentally true.
 
Does anyone here work mostly in an ambulatory outpatient setting? Is there any worry about the atrophy of skills since most patients coming for outpatient surgeries tend to be healthy (let's say for example, ENT surgical center)?

I work mainly at a low acuity military hospital, really a glorified surgicenter. If this was the only place I worked, I would have huge concerns about skill atrophy.

I moonlight at a larger hospital though and get the full range of sick/old trainwrecks, with a couple of gaps (no trauma, no neurosurgery, no cardiac). If not for this work, I think I'd really have lost a lot in the 3 years I've been out of residency. Even so, I would be edgy and nervous stepping into a cardiac OR tomorrow morning.

My career path the next few years is going to take me through a busy role 3 hospital in Afghanistan, then back to the med center where I trained as a resident, and at some unspecified point in the next few years, fellowship ... so I'm not really worried about skill atrophy in the long run.


But - I've done the military surgicenter right out of residency gig, and I don't recommend it unless you have very specific plans for staying current. The learning curve is still very steep after residency, and I think it's a bad idea to deliberately limit your opportunities. I was lucky to fall into a place where a local group was begging me to take weekends and nights and fill their vacation gaps.

Being on call for the 2AM bleeding airway tumor in the ER will be more stressful than a 7-3 surgicenter job, but that's the stuff that makes you good when there's no attending to bail you out ...


Don't go rot in a surgicenter right after residency.
 
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our group covers surgi center and hospital. I think they both require different skill sets. that being said you need to be seasoned in the hospital to truly grow. we do plenty of Asa 3 obese sleep apnea patients in the surgi center... ent cases . I have spent many a Friday evening trying to get a patient ready to go home before just saying tranfer to hospital. when you have to do 12 arhtrosxopes by 2 0pm in a surgeon owned center. it can be tough.

you need both
 
The only "skills" that you may not get to practice in an outpatient setting are central lines, epidurals and running drips. My theory on invasive procedures is that once you reach a certain threshold of experience it becomes as reflexive (if thats the word) as riding a bicycle. As a matter of fact I would say that watching the pain docs do thousands of epidurals under flouro has been the single best training tool for labor epidurals since I Ieft residency. As far as placing lines goes, as long I have access to some sort of ultrasound device I can place an IJ in even the most challenging patient and even without one my knowledge of basic anatomy and the hundreds of lines I placed as a resident have given me enough of a skill set to keep from embarrassing myself in front of nurses and surgeons. The rest of it really does come down to basic knowledge - do you really need to "practice" running pressors or an insulin drip?

Having worked in a few difference private practice and academic settings it seems to me that the people who have "lost" their ability to do complex cases and invasive procedures probably weren't any good at those procedures to begin with. Our 25 physician group only has 5 people who are able to do basic blocks and probably 15 of us who are proficient at placing lines. According to the L&D nurses about 1/3 of the group "suck" at placing epidurals and the director of our group will occasionally pull one of us aside and discretely ask us to go take over a room when one of out colleagues is clearly overwhelmed by a case. Now we have all had basically the same training, passed the same board exams and hold the same position but those who barely scraped by in residency and never took the initiative to do challenging cases and learn blocks are very easy to spot.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you really need to do as much learning as possible during residency because you will never have a chance to hone skills you never learned when you are an attending.
 
Having worked in a few difference private practice and academic settings it seems to me that the people who have "lost" their ability to do complex cases and invasive procedures probably weren't any good at those procedures to begin with.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you really need to do as much learning as possible during residency because you will never have a chance to hone skills you never learned when you are an attending.

:bow:
 
I agree with you that certain people will never develop competence in a procedure or skill set no matter how much they do it.

But I disagree that after residency you will never have the chance to hone your skills as an attending. After residency, I have completely learned how to do ultrasound guided blocks/catheters and TEE that I was never taught before i entered practice. New technologies come out after we finish and it is important to keep up to date. My residency did teach me to be prepared, read, safe, seek out other colleagues/specialists to help me learn a new technique.
 
The only "skills" that you may not get to practice in an outpatient setting are central lines, epidurals and running drips. My theory on invasive procedures is that once you reach a certain threshold of experience it becomes as reflexive (if thats the word) as riding a bicycle. As a matter of fact I would say that watching the pain docs do thousands of epidurals under flouro has been the single best training tool for labor epidurals since I Ieft residency. As far as placing lines goes, as long I have access to some sort of ultrasound device I can place an IJ in even the most challenging patient and even without one my knowledge of basic anatomy and the hundreds of lines I placed as a resident have given me enough of a skill set to keep from embarrassing myself in front of nurses and surgeons. The rest of it really does come down to basic knowledge - do you really need to "practice" running pressors or an insulin drip?

Having worked in a few difference private practice and academic settings it seems to me that the people who have "lost" their ability to do complex cases and invasive procedures probably weren't any good at those procedures to begin with. Our 25 physician group only has 5 people who are able to do basic blocks and probably 15 of us who are proficient at placing lines. According to the L&D nurses about 1/3 of the group "suck" at placing epidurals and the director of our group will occasionally pull one of us aside and discretely ask us to go take over a room when one of out colleagues is clearly overwhelmed by a case. Now we have all had basically the same training, passed the same board exams and hold the same position but those who barely scraped by in residency and never took the initiative to do challenging cases and learn blocks are very easy to spot.

I'm with you on the "riding a bicycle" monkey skills and "some lazy people just suck" bits ...


I guess what I'm trying to say is that you really need to do as much learning as possible during residency because you will never have a chance to hone skills you never learned when you are an attending.

... but I don't agree with this.

Not just because many skills CAN be learned after residency (look at all the SDN readers here posting about teaching themselves new blocks, or learning TEE and taking the testamur exam) ... but mainly because it's not "skills" per se that are the issue.

There's a lot of learning after residency - maybe less of the "skills" side, but absolutely the "judgment" side. If you don't go to a practice where you have to do complex cases in borderline patients, judgment can't mature.

The hard part of anesthesia isn't sticking in a line or setting up a pressor drip, it's judgment, anticipation and pre-emption of problems, OR flow management, people/staff management - these may or may not be perishible skills, but I think FEW new graduates have really mastered them. I certainly hadn't and I was a very strong resident. I'm still working to improve myself 3 years later, and I have specific plans to keep improving. If you exit residency and go straight to a cushy outpatient practice or (dare I say it) mommy track job ... no matter how good you were as a senior CA3, you'll not reach your full potential.

I know this, because I stared into that abyss of atrophy and stagnation when the Navy parked me at a tiny hospital right out of residency. And I know that if not for the extra 40-60 hours per month I spend moonlighting (sometimes more if I take vacation time from the Navy to go work at the local civilian joint), I wouldn't be as good as I am now.

I'm still a youngin' relatively speaking. I believe that residency makes us safe and even good, but only challenging independent practice can make us excellent.


Keeping a surgicenter running efficiently is a skill and you have to be deft and efficient, but right after residency, filling your days with knee scopes and butt scopes is a dodgy plan.
 
There's a lot of learning after residency.

This is 100% accurate... and I will add that an MD only group for the first 3-5 years is what you need to do before getting into an ACT model.

Being solo taking care of a type A dissection @ 3:00am pushes you to become the best you can be. Doing this for several years ad nauseam keeps your HR @ a steady 55 bpm during extremely difficult cases.

Big difference in the provider that works 7-3 @ an ASC vs. a provider who works @ a big trauma center doing everything from peds to cardiac.

This is the job my wife and I went after, and it was the right professional move for the both of us. Our residency exposed us to good doses of good cases... from pedi hearts and micropremies to liver transplants, but just as important is the time you spend alone doing difficult cases after residency.
 
I think it is OK to work at a surgery center as long as you continue to do inpatient work as well and take care of "sick patients having big procedures". You simply cannot "walk the walk and talk the talk" of being an physician, if you do not use your education and training to its fullest.

I think it is a mistake for a new graduate to work exclusively at an ASC. There are certainly skills that you will develope in this environment that someone who is hospital-based may lack. Unfortunately, the reality is that much of the care of the patients in ACT's will fall to CRNA's in the coming years (either in an ACT or independent practice model).

Ask yourself this: would you hire someone to join your hospital-based group if they had done only ASC cases for the last 5-10 years?
 
Only a resident here, but that's not something I will consider. I believe that the future of our specialty will lie in taking care of ASA 3's/4's. I personally think that if you can't do that, then you will have much lower job security and also less money most likely.

Fortunately for us (not so much for society at "large") there will be plenty of business to go around. Not only do we have the baby boom generation upon us (like now), but we have an unprecedented number of super unhealthy younger generations that have not even been factored into the equation for the most part. When you see 30-somethings walking around looking like they have maybe 10 years to live, it says something about the level and quantity of care they will demand before they expire. Sad but true.


Then again, this is following "logic" which our crazy world seems to defy daily.....
 
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