Attending a "lower-tier" Med School Affecting Residency placement?

[drizzt3117]

This is 100% wrong.

The only accurate comparison between students of two institutions is the USMLE exams. Class ranks can be inflated. Course scores can be moot.

While clinical grades are pretty arbitrary, they're still probably the 2nd most impt factor.

1. Step 1
2. Clinical grades
3. LOR (names > content)
4. Research
5. AOA
6. Program reputation
7 et al, Step 2, Pre-clinical grades, ECs etc

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[IlDestriero]

While clinical grades are pretty arbitrary, they're still probably the 2nd most impt factor.

1. Step 1
2. Clinical grades
3. LOR (names > content)
4. Research
5. AOA
6. Program reputation
7 et al, Step 2, Pre-clinical grades, ECs etc

You're correct. And thats how the directors themselves admit to evaluating applicants.
This ongoing argument is useless as most people aren't going to turn down a top 20 school for a random unranked school. Many of the people following this thread will be lucky to get into one school.
There's little to no difference between similarly ranked schools.
The advantage that big name research schools offer is (usually) access to big name faculty in most fields for mentorship and LORs. They also offer access to a large variety of clinical research. For competitive specialties that is pure gold, and will make or break you on the rank list.
PDs at the best programs can evaluate 50 applicants per position. The only way to differentiate applicants at the top of their game is to arbitrarily give additional points for marginal things, like pre clinical grades, reputation, quality of LOR, LOR faculty reputation, success of previous grads they had, etc. Is that LOR an 8 or a 10? They also consider likelihood of the candidate actually ranking the program high enough to match. The interview can be very revealing, but if you're only interviewing ~100 of 600+ applicants, you have to do everything you can to get in the door.
But, again, most people are not facing the (obvious) choice of Penn vs. Eastern Virginia, and most are not candidates for the best residencies in competitive fields. You get in where you get in, eval cost:location:reputation, do your best, and the chips fall where they fall on match day.

 

[drizzt3117]

The somewhat more common decision people have to make (and this was my experience) is top 25 program on full scholarship vs top 5 school; rep may cone into play there,

 

[ppfizenm]

The somewhat more common decision people have to make (and this was my experience) is top 25 program on full scholarship vs top 5 school; rep may cone into play there,

Beware the anecdotal troll.

 

[indonacious]

The somewhat more common decision people have to make (and this was my experience) is top 25 program on full scholarship vs top 5 school; rep may cone into play there,

What did you do?

 

[scarshapedstar]

What did you do?

Obviously he wrote such a badass LOI that he got a free ride at #1!

 

[drizzt3117]

What did you do?

I ended up going to my state school on scholarship; although there were other factors that ended up being quite siginificant like proximity to family, etc. At the time, I was pretty set on doing private practice but have since changed my mind. If I'd known I was pretty set on academic medicine prior to starting med school I may have made a different choice, although hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[CopaceticOne]

I ended up going to my state school on scholarship; although there were other factors that ended up being quite siginificant like proximity to family, etc. At the time, I was pretty set on doing private practice but have since changed my mind. If I'd known I was pretty set on academic medicine prior to starting med school I may have made a different choice, although hindsight is always 20/20.

So.... You chose to go to a HUGE research school (Wisconsin), on full scholarship, that was close to your family, and was ideal for the direction that you wanted your career to go when you started school. But now, because you aren't getting the same "love" while applying to rad residencies, it must be because this school's reputation/prestige isn't as good as other schools. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that there are probably other factors (say 1-5 in your list and individual persona) that are really at play.

 

[drizzt3117]

So.... You chose to go to a HUGE research school (Wisconsin), on full scholarship, that was close to your family, and was ideal for the direction that you wanted your career to go when you started school. But now, because you aren't getting the same "love" while applying to rad residencies, it must be because this school's reputation/prestige isn't as good as other schools. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that there are probably other factors (say 1-5 in your list and individual persona) that are really at play.

I'm hardly "not getting the love" from programs. UW is also a top 25 program and has a top rads program so that's pretty much as expected. I have nothing to complain about and I've enjoyed my time here a lot. I've been fortunate enough to work with some amazing researchers and do some pretty cool things. That being said, my experience has been the exception rather than the rule; I've had to break new ground with a lot of the research activities; I've had no protected research time throughout med school whereas this wouldn't be true at other institutions; that would have been very helpful for some of the projects im working on. Keep in mind UW is a top 10 program in NIH grants, so this would be even more of a problem at programs with less research activity. UW is a great school and there are very well-renowned faculty in most fields; this is probably not true at smaller private programs that don't even have departments in some specialties.

My situation is slightly different because I'm 100% set on a career in academic medicine, so this is probably less of an issue for the average med student; certainly it's possible to perform a good amount of research at most top 50 programs. That being said, there are
many other things to consider, such as number of students entering a given specialty and % students going into primary care etc. I don't think these factors will prevent students going into their specialty of choice, but it may make things harder or easier depending on the situation.

 

[candav]

Canadian medical personnel are eligible for the TN1 visa, which can be renewed indefinitely and is quite easy to obtain.

I am aware of this visa (both of my parents work in the US on TN visas), but I have never heard of it being used for residency -- and I've looked in quite a few places. I'll look around some more; thanks for the tip!

 

[bookfreak89]

So.... You chose to go to a HUGE research school (Wisconsin), on full scholarship, that was close to your family, and was ideal for the direction that you wanted your career to go when you started school. But now, because you aren't getting the same "love" while applying to rad residencies, it must be because this school's reputation/prestige isn't as good as other schools. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that there are probably other factors (say 1-5 in your list and individual persona) that are really at play.

Baseless and incorrect assumptions FTW.

 

[Gut Shot]

The somewhat more common decision people have to make (and this was my experience) is top 25 program on full scholarship vs top 5 school; rep may cone into play there,

How much would you pay for top 5 right now?

 

[drizzt3117]

How much would you pay for top 5 right now?

Ask me in 2 months.

 

[candav]

It is VERY EASY for Canadians to get work permits for the USA. There is the special TN1 visa that specifically has physicians listed on the NAFTA occupation list. For other nationalites it can be far more difficult, but because of NAFTA, Mexicans and Canadian professionals should rest easy.

So OP, are you Canadian or do you hold a passport from a different country? It was unclear from your original post.

Canadian medical personnel are eligible for the TN1 visa, which can be renewed indefinitely and is quite easy to obtain.

Sorry to revive this thread from the grave, but after doing a bit more research I wanted to clarify that, as far as I can tell, the TN visa is not valid for medical residency. According to most sources, as well as the official government website (see: http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID=147#Ap1603.D.1), the TN is only granted to physicians wishing to teach or conduct research, NOT for clinical practice. For international students seeking visas for residency, the options appear to be only the J or H1.

 

[Caesar]

While clinical grades are pretty arbitrary, they're still probably the 2nd most impt factor.

1. Step 1
2. Clinical grades
3. LOR (names > content)
4. Research
5. AOA
6. Program reputation
7 et al, Step 2, Pre-clinical grades, ECs etc

I don't disagree with clinical grades being important. I read the post as saying preclinical grades and the institution you got them at were important.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

Can we stop highlighting words in red, please? It's hard for me to read on my computer.

Thanks 😀

 

[tantacles]

Can we stop highlighting words in red, please? It's hard for me to read on my computer.

Thanks 😀

Ok.

 

[Knocked Up]

Ask me in 2 months.

Ok, I've been holding out for 2 months now hibernating in a cave (it's cold outside) and waiting for your response to this. So how much?

PS. The thread I started is more effective in pointing out that the name on your medical school diploma does not matter. Oh well, some people just don't understand an intellectual argument when they see one.

 

[Tsiana]

I am a Canadian international looking to attend Med school in the US. I am aware of the higher standards for internationals and the smaller selection of med school that even interview internationals.

As such, I am aiming primarily for lower-tier schools, which I won't name at the risk of offending anyone. However, how much impact does the med school I attend have on my residency placement in the future, especially competitive residencies such as dermatology, radiology, plastic, etc...? Thanks.

Why exactly are you aiming for "lower-tier schools" again? Upper tier ones (top 50, top 25) accept a good number of international students -especially Canadian students. The bar is indeed high, some say particularly for the MCAT since that's a form of standardized evaluation that isn't dependent on your undergraduate circumstances which may differ significantly from country to country. If you aim too "low," perhaps it would not be worth the 300K in loans to go to a low tier US school when you can go to a bunch of wonderful Canadian schools, which often rank in quality and reputation among the top 100 if not top 50 in the world, and just try hard on the USMLE. That is, unless getting into a Canadian school is your major concern (a legitimate one since the total rates of admission in Canada are much lower than in the states)...

 

[zherussianbear]

I know that this thread is dead, but that fact gives me the opportunity to have the last word (unless one of you guys decides to resurrect and respond), which, in and of itself, is pleasing.

My last word:

Who cares? All med schools make you a doctor, and I'm fairly certain that they all match into all possible specialties most of the time. In a broader sense, we shouldn't allow ourselves to be defined by what school we attend, where we are, etc. What defines us as undergraduates, medical students, doctors is our work, our dedication, and our characters. To reduce any of this to the name above yours on a diploma is to sell one's self short. To envision a future in which you'll be deprived of something because, despite yourself and your accomplishments, you didn't go to a top medical school is to not believe in yourself.

Go where you want to, ignore what anybody else thinks, work hard, and be the best doctor that you can be. If nobody else will value you for at what you're worth, go ahead and value yourself at that much.

Now, bow down to your bionic kitten overlords.

 

[ligand]

What qualifies as "low tier?" Would someone be disadvantaged by attending, say, the UNC School of Medicine as opposed to other schools "higher" in the Top 20? (I assume we're talking about the most competitive specialties and residency programs.)

 

[Slack3r]

What qualifies as "low tier?" Would someone be disadvantaged by attending, say, the UNC School of Medicine as opposed to other schools "higher" in the Top 20? (I assume we're talking about the most competitive specialties and residency programs.)

UNC is ranked in the top 25. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[ligand]

UNC is ranked in the top 25. Don't be ridiculous.

So there's no advantage to being top 5 as opposed to top 25?

 

[underdog427]

how about LSU SOM in Shreveport or LSU SOM in New Orleans?

 

[Slack3r]

So there's no advantage to being top 5 as opposed to top 25?

Well you said top 20 vs UNC (which is #21). UNC vs. top 5, maybe a different story, but you certainly won't be shooting yourself in the foot going to UNC, it's still an exceptional school.

 

[MossPoh]

There is an obvious difference between the well established schools and the newer or smaller schools with less research and networking opportunities. I wouldn't say there is a defined magical number that the difference occurs. It all depends on the prospective program director's viewpoint of things. Going to a "low tier" isn't the end of the world. All things held equal, you may not get the same number of interviews at the prestigious locales, but that doesn't necessarily make a difference in your career overall.

I go to a "low tier" school without many residency programs and probably won't get the same number of big league interviews as peers at higher up schools, but I will still have a couple. I'm also more than comfortable with my clinical skills so far.

 

[rad0nc]

So there's no advantage to being top 5 as opposed to top 25?

There is an advantage. It is top 5-10 and then everyone else. The rankings don't really matter once you get past that point. Going to school #23 vs. #47 won't impress anyone but a premed. The only exception to that rule might be the very bottom tier schools like Meharry etc. Those might get looked down on by some.

 

[IlDestriero]

I would probably extend the list to the top 20 schools. It's not all about nih dollars. The reputation for clinical excellence among graduates extends beyond the top 10.
Cheers.

 

[AJgem]

Seriously who cares? Practicing medicine is a privilege and honor! Whethe you are at mass general or not! There are sick people who need doctors everywhere and isn't being a doctor about compassion not pedigree?

 

[IlDestriero]

Seriously who cares? Practicing medicine is a privilege and honor! Whethe you are at mass general or not! There are sick people who need doctors everywhere and isn't being a doctor about compassion not pedigree?

Not when you're trying to match into a great residency or secure a competitive job.

 

[235788]

Seriously who cares? Practicing medicine is a privilege and honor! Whethe you are at mass general or not! There are sick people who need doctors everywhere and isn't being a doctor about compassion not pedigree?

Your attitude will change with time/experience.

 

[Knocked Up]

I would probably extend the list to the top 20 schools. It's not all about nih dollars. The reputation for clinical excellence among graduates extends beyond the top 10.
Cheers.

By this definition, wouldn't it extend beyond the top 20 then. Schools like Case / Cleveland Clinic, UVA, Emory, Baylor, Mayo, Iowa, Oregon etc. have some of the strongest departments in world.

Taking it a step further, schools like University of Alabama, University of Indiana, and Miami (with Jackson) particularly have huge teaching hospitals with diverse patient populations. Shouldn't this also be taken into consideration.

 

[235788]

By this definition, wouldn't it extend beyond the top 20 then. Schools like Case / Cleveland Clinic, UVA, Emory, Baylor, Mayo, Iowa, Oregon etc. have some of the strongest departments in world.

Taking it a step further, schools like University of Alabama, University of Indiana, and Miami (with Jackson) particularly have huge teaching hospitals with diverse patient populations. Shouldn't this also be taken into consideration.

who cares?

Most med schools have rotation sites that hit other demographics.

 

[AJgem]

Your attitude will change with time/experience.

Your status says pre med so how do you know how my opinions will change with experience since you have not even had any experience ?

 

[libraryismyhome]

Your status says pre med so how do you know how my opinions will change with experience since you have not even had any experience ?

By reading between the lines of these guys who already went deep into the field

 

[235788]

By reading between the lines of these guys who already went deep into the field

exactly. Conducting research for a physician and getting 1st hand experiences with the residents on a daily basis also helps.

Your status says pre med so how do you know how my opinions will change with experience since you have not even had any experience ?

I've never played professional football, but I have a clue of what goes on in the NFL.

Keep in mind that me and many others "pre-meds" are MS0/college Seniors/college Juniors/SMP students/PhD students/Other advance medically related degrees/Non-trads with life experiences (and so on) and have many more experiences than the silly college freshman and sophomores that regularly make those with the "pre-med"badge look blind (and not all of the MS0's are turds who change to medical student the second they get accepted). We, the more senior members (forum time or experiences), are the ones answering the silly threads and questions (does this count as BCPM? LORS? W or take the F? etc.) and repeating logical points left by the even more senior members. With time and experiences you sort of figure out whats going on...

If you look a little further, you'll also see that I also joined in 2008, so i'm not new to this whole forum thing.



Not all of us are blindly falling into medicine.

 

[thesauce]

Seriously who cares? Practicing medicine is a privilege and honor! Whethe you are at mass general or not! There are sick people who need doctors everywhere and isn't being a doctor about compassion not pedigree?

These are not mutually exclusive. Many pre-meds (and members of the general public) think you only need compassion to be a physician. 'Unfortunately,' you also need to be well-trained. Not all residencies are created equal in this respect.

 

[SoundofSilver]

I go to what would probably be considered a "low tier" school i.e. a state school. Our match rate was higher than the national average this year and people matched into pretty much every specialty out there including many in the more competitive fields. Plenty of people matched at prestigious institutions in the region while many others matched at local hospitals in the area (these aren't bad places at all by the way, just places no one outside the region has probably heard of). I would guess around 50 to 60% stayed in state.

The moral of the story is: yeah it's going to be pretty damn hard to match into Mass general out of a state school (but not impossible, people from my school have matched there). If that's your goal, it probably makes more sense to go a big name school. That being said, you're still going to be able to get whatever specialty you want given that you work hard enough and you also have a pretty decent chance at landing a prestigious residency in the region if you go to a school in the general proximity of those places. This is why it makes no sense to me to put yourself into considerably more debt to attend a private or out of state school if you have that in state option.

 

[scarshapedstar]

how about LSU SOM in Shreveport or LSU SOM in New Orleans?

This year LSUHSC-NO matched 2 at Hopkins IM. Last year they had 1 Hopkins IM, 1 Hopkins ped, 1 MGH ortho, 1 Mayo ENT, 1 Mayo IM.

I know nothing about residencies so that's what really jumped out at me. Lots of other very good names but these are three dream hospitals, at least to my limited perception. If you're at the top of the class you have nothing to worry about, but that ought to hold true for any med school.