Attending a religious school if you are not religious...ethical?

[QuaerensIntelle]

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I was just wondering if anyone else felt weird about applying a school that has religiously based practices that you might not be in agreement with. For example, as far as I know Catholic facilities won't prescribe birth control. Do you feel like your education would suffer from lack of these practices, particularly if you are not of that particular faith-or do you think that it is a non issue?

Just curious if you have any thoughts about it.

Thank you!

 

[Aidan]

I have some pretty strong anti-religious beliefs, and I think that religion should remain secular from medicine - infringing upon the patient's right to do what he/she wants with his/her body i.e. birth control is pretty ridiculous. So yeah, I'm not applying to any..

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I was just wondering if anyone else felt weird about applying a school that has religiously based practices that you might not be in agreement with. For example, as far as I know Catholic facilities won't prescribe birth control. Do you feel like your education would suffer from lack of these practices, particularly if you are not of that particular faith-or do you think that it is a non issue?

Just curious if you have any thoughts about it.

Thank you!

Wow i had no idea some school's do this. Are you still allowed to prescribe birth control if you want? Or does the facility specifically forbid it?

Just curious.

 

[LadyWolverine]

At Georgetown, you may be prescribed OCPs at the student health center if they are indicated for "dysmenorrhea," and not for contraception. I don't think they'd prescribe anything specifically for contraception that didn't have another indication. Also, the pharmacy on campus does not dispense the OCPs. You must go off-campus to another pharmacy.

As far as I know, it is University Policy to not prescribe contraceptive medications because GU adheres to Catholic doctrine. While I agree that the patient has the right to do whatever he/she wants with his or her body, the prescriber (or institution) is not forced to give the patient whatever he/she wants. The patient is welcome to go to another physician who will provide those services.

 

[Poiu86]

Honestly I don't think its that big of a deal. Most of the schools I have heard about that have religious affiliations are not that hardcore about it. They may have something in their mission statement about having certain values associated with whatever, etc, etc but I think that would be about the extent of it. No doubt there are pleanty of people at schools like Georgetown that are not religious...

 

[LucidSplash]

At Georgetown, you may be prescribed OCPs at the student health center if they are indicated for "dysmenorrhea," and not for contraception. I don't think they'd prescribe anything specifically for contraception that didn't have another indication. Also, the pharmacy on campus does not dispense the OCPs. You must go off-campus to another pharmacy.

As far as I know, it is University Policy to not prescribe contraceptive medications because GU adheres to Catholic doctrine. While I agree that the patient has the right to do whatever he/she wants with his or her body, the prescriber (or institution) is not forced to give the patient whatever he/she wants. The patient is welcome to go to another physician who will provide those services.

Also, there is a Planned Parenthood and a Walgreen's basically across the street (right near campus). You just can't get contraception AT the hospital.

 

[Depakote]

I interviewed at NYMC and asked how the religious affiliation would impact my education.

The Dean's answer was that the Jesuit (pretty sure they're Jesuit, if not, just Catholic) influence means they're committed to serving underserved populations. I didn't directly ask about prescribing birth control/planned parenthood/stem cell issues, but I did ask a broad follow-up question something to the extent of "so, there is not anything that I wouldn't be exposed to due to the religious affiliation of the school?" and she told me that there wasn't.

Any school, regardless of religious affiliation, is still going to teach you the same material required to maintain LCME accreditation. I would assume the proper use of contraceptives is in there somewhere.

 

[beachblonde]

Any school, regardless of religious affiliation, is still going to teach you the same material required to maintain LCME accreditation. I would assume the proper use of contraceptives is in there somewhere.

I would hope so...because I don't think it's fair/wise of a school to assume that all of its students will subscribe to their philosophy for the entirety of their medical career.

I've got an open mind about religion (I figure everyone's entitled to their own beliefs) so I think I could tolerate some of the more religious schools, but I don't think I could attend somewhere like Loma Linda where you have to change things about yourself to matriculate.

 

[ar2388]

well lets hope i do not get in georgetown then.. jeez. really? i also hear they do not teach abortions..

 

[disorder]

very touchy subject, tread lightly.

 

[Depakote]

well lets hope i do not get in georgetown then.. jeez. really? i also hear they do not teach abortions..

well most places you go won't teach you an elective abortion. That's something you wouldn't learn until an OB/GYN residency, anyway.

If you went to a Jesuit/Catholic institution you'd still assist on the treatment of ectopic pregnancies. I haven't had an OB/GYN rotation yet so I can't think of other specifics, but I can't think of any procedures where you'd be hands on at one place but not at the other.

 

[Phoenix.]

I'm an agnostic jew, and would have felt very comfortable attending Loyola, a jesuit school. I agree with depakote above that it produces a very community service oriented med school, which I think is great.

I have heard that if you know you want to go into ob-gyn and aren't religious, you might want to go to a non-secular school since jesuit/catholic schools generally won't teach you how to perform an abortion, but I imagine you could pick that up quickly once you started residency. Regardless, I probably wouldn't use any of these issues as a factor in choosing which med school to apply or go to, but I imagine it really varies by perspective and beliefs.

 

[214615]

as to the original question, I think that depends on the approach you take. if you claim to be something or believe something in order to get in and get an education, then that would seem to be unethical. if you are honest about where you are at and they are happy to have you, then no issue there....

 

[Excelsius]

I have some pretty strong anti-religious beliefs, and I think that religion should remain secular from medicine - infringing upon the patient's right to do what he/she wants with his/her body i.e. birth control is pretty ridiculous. So yeah, I'm not applying to any..

I don't have any anti-religious beliefs, but I do agree that education must be secular.

Maybe all accredited schools teach the same material, but they are not the same. For example, I think that Loma Linda is extremely religious and while going there you might learn all you need as a doctor, you must keep in mind whether you'll be willing to spend four years of your life with students who are very different than you, whether in terms of abortion, ethical beliefs, or even evolution. Unless that school was my only chance of becoming a doctor, I wouldn't attend it and I am sure many fellow atheists wouldn't either. This takes away from the normal med school experience. Georgetown, on the other hand, doesn't seem anywhere near as extreme. You can get birth control from elsewhere at GT, but I think the social situation at LL will be hard to mitigate.

 

[Raryn]

None of the schools are very hardcore about their religious affiliations except Loma Linda. They're more historical than anything else, and it won't significantly affect your education. For example, the library at Einstein is not open on Saturdays, but I don't think anyone can say that would kill them...

Loma Linda is a different story, but thats why I'm not applying there.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have heard that if you know you want to go into ob-gyn and aren't religious, you might want to go to a non-secular school

Yeah, I agree the only real deviations in practices you are likely to see are going to happen in the OBGYN rotations. Contraception is the huge issue if you go to a school that rotates you through womens' clinics, which is something you probably want if you have an interest in this field because they tend to be the places you get to do the most pelvics and paps as a student. You won't likely be involved in an abortion even at a non-religious school on a typical rotation, so that issue probably won't come up. There may be different viewpoints in terms of evolution, intelligent design and stem cell research during the first year, but they will not be a large part of the curriculum. So yeah, unless you plan to be an OBGYN, I wouldn't sweat the religious aspects of med school regardless of where you go.

 

[Depakote]

Yeah, I agree the only real deviations in practices you are likely to see are going to happen in the OBGYN rotations. Contraception is the huge issue if you go to a school that rotates you through womens' clinics, which is something you probably want if you have an interest in this field because they tend to be the places you get to do the most pelvics and paps as a student. You won't likely be involved in an abortion even at a non-religious school on a typical rotation, so that issue probably won't come up. There may be different viewpoints in terms of evolution, intelligent design and stem cell research during the first year, but they will not be a large part of the curriculum. So yeah, unless you plan to be an OBGYN, I wouldn't sweat the religious aspects of med school regardless of where you go.

Intelligent design/evolution rarely came up during my first year... at the most it was a side note on "why is this like this" in an anatomy lecture and an evolutionary perspective was given.

Side note, Jesuit/Catholic schools are fine with Evolution. I don't know about Loma Linda and Seventh Day Adventists. I can't think of any other religious med schools out there off the top of my head. (Meharry?)

 

[AmoryBlaine]

If the school admits you then they obviously don't have a problem so I can't see how it would be unethical.

Pre-meds get way to worked up about the BC/AB issue as part of "training." My med school did not have a problem with either practice but if it had I don't think it would have made much difference.

ABs are something that you would probably have to seek out as a med student even at the most liberal of institutions. They are not really considered part of routine Ob/Gyn clerkships.

Prescribing OCPs is no big trick, you pretty much just pick one, tell the woman to start taking it at the end of her next period (I think, have to look it up to be sure), and talk to them about the risk of smoking.

Let's say hypothetically that you are only admitted to a school that, in stark contrast to your own beliefs, does not prescribe OCP or perform ABs. Here are the three things that might happen.

1. You will go into Surg, Uro, ENT, Ophtho, PM/R, Rads, Anesth and it won't matter.

2. You will go into IM, Family Med and learn to handle OCPs in residency.

3. You will go into Ob and learn to do both in residency.

 

[Raryn]

Intelligent design/evolution rarely came up during my first year... at the most it was a side note on "why is this like this" in an anatomy lecture and an evolutionary perspective was given.

Side note, Jesuit/Catholic schools are fine with Evolution. I don't know about Loma Linda and Seventh Day Adventists. I can't think of any other religious med schools out there off the top of my head. (Meharry?)

Einstein is associated with a relatively Orthodox Jewish undergrad (Yeshiva), and Mt. Sinai is associated with a more Reform Jewish undergrad. I can't think of any restrictions at Mt. Sinai offhand, but Einstein does close its library on Saturdays (Jewish Sabbath). Both of the med schools don't seem to give any special preference for Jews (unlike Loma Linda's stated desire for more SDAs), and, other than the library thing, the distinction seems to be more historical than anything else.

I have no idea if they have any sort of restriction about abortion/contraceptives, but Judaism is usually more liberal than most about that sort of thing. I'd bet that at the very least, Mt. Sinai doesn't restrict it, but AECOM might.

 

[Depakote]

Einstein is associated with a relatively Orthodox Jewish undergrad (Yeshiva), and Mt. Sinai is associated with a more Reform Jewish undergrad. I can't think of any restrictions at Mt. Sinai offhand, but Einstein does close its library on Saturdays (Jewish Sabbath). Both of the med schools don't seem to give any special preference for Jews (unlike Loma Linda's stated desire for more SDAs), and, other than the library thing, the distinction seems to be more historical than anything else.

I have no idea if they have any sort of restriction about abortion/contraceptives, but Judaism is usually more liberal than most about that sort of thing. I'd bet that at the very least, Mt. Sinai doesn't restrict it, but AECOM might.

don't know how I managed to forget those... I even applied to AECOM.

 

[Karees]

In case you were curious, the official position of the Adventist church is very anti-evolution. They teach young earth creationism, and some people get pretty fired up about it. However, there are many Adventists who believe in theistic evolution (I'm one of them). My grandmother would be shocked to know I think the world was not made in 6 days, but I haven't told her, she's old, and I don't want to give her a heart attack.

I am kind of curious how it's treated at Loma Linda, but as an earlier poster said, evolution was pretty much just a side note in anatomy, so I doubt it would really affect the curriculum. Anyone know?

 

[CubaLibre]

Einstein is associated with a relatively Orthodox Jewish undergrad (Yeshiva), and Mt. Sinai is associated with a more Reform Jewish undergrad. I can't think of any restrictions at Mt. Sinai offhand,

The one restriction I can think of at Sinai is that on Friday after sunset they designate one of the elevators as the Sabbath elevator, which just means it stops at every floor. Essentially an elevator without all the conveniences of your everyday elevator.

 

[Raryn]

The one restriction I can think of at Sinai is that on Friday after sunset they designate one of the elevators as the Sabbath elevator, which just means it stops at every floor. Essentially an elevator without all the conveniences of your everyday elevator.

Ah, didn't know they did that. Heard of businesses in Israel doing that, so I guess it doesn't surprise me a Jewish university does.

Simple enough reason for it. On the Sabbath, one can't do any "work," and under some Rabbinical definitions of work, pressing a button to make the elevator stop counts.

 

[Maxwell Edison]

Bear in mind the necessity of religious plurality in America; they can't tell you you're disallowed from coming to their school on religious grounds. In my mind, the only unethical thing in play here is any school that would demand you meet some theistic standard to become a physician. Apply wherever the hell you want, and be happy you live in America.

 

[bcat85]

Holy crap... we've been through this. Medical education is pretty much identical at any LCME accredited institution. They all believe in evolution (though it isn't really a heavy topic in medicine), and while you may not learn to perform an abortion at every hospital, you'll learn it if you become an OB-GYN.

 

[bcat85]

Bear in mind the necessity of religious plurality in America; they can't tell you you're disallowed from coming to their school on religious grounds. In my mind, the only unethical thing in play here is any school that would demand you meet some theistic standard to become a physician. Apply wherever the hell you want, and be happy you live in America.

and what he said.

 

[jdh71]

Einstein is associated with a relatively Orthodox Jewish undergrad (Yeshiva), and Mt. Sinai is associated with a more Reform Jewish undergrad. I can't think of any restrictions at Mt. Sinai offhand, but Einstein does close its library on Saturdays (Jewish Sabbath). Both of the med schools don't seem to give any special preference for Jews (unlike Loma Linda's stated desire for more SDAs), and, other than the library thing, the distinction seems to be more historical than anything else.

I have no idea if they have any sort of restriction about abortion/contraceptives, but Judaism is usually more liberal than most about that sort of thing. I'd bet that at the very least, Mt. Sinai doesn't restrict it, but AECOM might.

Loma Linda does not do elective abortions, and only a bunch of pre-meds without any experience could possibly sit pontificating about how much this will harm their "experience". You guys are N-006s, and it will not harm you education.

Abortions are done as is necessary to save the life of the mother, although these situations are really so rare that I wouldn't plan on seeing any as a student. I was involved with something similarish as a student - triploidy fetus - freaking weird . . . DandE

And you'll need to know your oral contraceptives because you'll deal with them a lot, especially at the free clinic where you will do most of your pelvic exams.

 

[jdh71]

I am kind of curious how it's treated at Loma Linda, but as an earlier poster said, evolution was pretty much just a side note in anatomy, so I doubt it would really affect the curriculum. Anyone know?

Anyone have some sort of explanation for how knowing the evolution of anything is of practical importance to the physician, learning anatomy or otherwise?

It's not important to medicine - medicine doesn't care - it is irrelevant.

 

[Depakote]

Anyone have some sort of explanation for how knowing the evolution of anything is of practical importance to the physician, learning anatomy or otherwise?

It's not important to medicine - medicine doesn't care - it is irrelevant.

It's definitely nothing that will ever show up on a test, but when you're getting mind numbing lectures about Hox genes or other embryo/anatomy tid-bits that easily jump species, the lecturer will usually make an evolution reference.

That said, I've had plenty of lecturers make references to a Higher Power.

No one really raised an eyebrow about either one.

 

[alphaholic06]

Nevermind

 

[214615]

Anyone have some sort of explanation for how knowing the evolution of anything is of practical importance to the physician, learning anatomy or otherwise?

It's not important to medicine - medicine doesn't care - it is irrelevant.

immunology... microbiology... infectious disease etc....

or how about simply the issue of perceived credibility of receiving care from a physician that denies what is essentially a scientific fact?

I'm not actually interested in debating this unless you're open minded and not a sold out ID/Discovery Institute type of guy.....

/before you make assumptions, I'm an active member of a christian church.

 

[Crazy4F1]

well lets hope i do not get in georgetown then.. jeez. really? i also hear they do not teach abortions..

this is untrue. the procedure used to perform an abortion is similar to the D&C procedure used in gynecology. to be a competent physician/gynecologist you need to know how to perform this procedure, so it is done at the hospital and you will be taught to perform it. you just wont use it to abort any pregnancies at georgetown.