AUC or is DO still possible for me?

[aic92]

I have a 506 (125/125/127/129) MCAT score. My cGPA (with only the latest retakes taken into consideration) is 3.08. Is an SMP or DO possible with those stats? Thank you.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[FCMike11]

Retake all F/D/C grades and you will ne fine for DO. MCAT is fine. What's the rest of your app look like?

Do not go Carribbean. You do not need an expensive SMP.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using SDN mobile

 

[KingD]

Definitely agree with the poster above. Shoot for DO. Caribbean is the most costly mistake you can make.

 

[learner01]

Definitely agree with the poster above. Shoot for DO. Caribbean is the most costly mistake you can make.

Why is that? it seems graduates from there and locally are both getting into family practice!

 

[KingD]

Why is that? it seems graduates from there and locally are both getting into family practice!

Just simple odds, 95% of succeeding and matching vs 40-50%. Always better to go DO if possible.

Sent from my SM-G930T using SDN mobile

 

[learner01]

Just simple odds, 95% of succeeding and matching vs 40-50%. Always better to go DO if possible.

Sent from my SM-G930T using SDN mobile

I think almost all who go Caribbean would rather DO except they never got accepted!

Its about time national schools take more students and cut the bull!

 

[the argus]

Just simple odds, 95% of succeeding and matching vs 40-50%.

Sent from my SM-G930T using SDN mobile

Nope, it's not just simple odds. What you're trying to do is called ecological fallacy, and it's very wrong.
"...a logical fallacy in the interpretation of statistical data where inferences about the nature of individuals are deduced from inference for the group to which those individuals belong"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

Any single person's chance of passing is either 100% or 0%, regardless of where they go to medical school. Their chances of passing doesn't change depending on where they go to school.

You think the people who fail out of the caribbean would have been fine if they just would have gone to an osteopathic medical school? That's just silly.

Caribbean schools have high attrition rates because they have very low admission standards and accept people who don't have the ability to succeed in medical school. DO schools have a lower attrition rate because they place a premium on only accepting people that are more likely to pass.

If you took the class from a random DO school and put them in the Caribbean, the sample percentage would pass as would if they were at the DO school. Similarly, if you took a class from the Caribbean and put them in a DO school, the same percentage would fail as would if they stayed in the Caribbean.

 

[gyngyn]

Nope, it's not just simple odds. What you're trying to do is called ecological fallacy, and it's very wrong.
"...a logical fallacy in the interpretation of statistical data where inferences about the nature of individuals are deduced from inference for the group to which those individuals belong"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

Any single person's chance of passing is either 100% or 0%, regardless of where they go to medical school. Their chances of passing doesn't change depending on where they go to school.

You think the people who fail out of the caribbean would have been fine if they just would have gone to an osteopathic medical school? That's just silly.

Caribbean schools have high attrition rates because they have very low admission standards and accept people who don't have the ability to succeed in medical school. DO schools have a lower attrition rate because they place a premium on only accepting people that are more likely to pass.

If you took the class from a random DO school and put them in the Caribbean, the sample percentage would pass as would if they were at the DO school. Similarly, if you took a class from the Caribbean and put them in a DO school, the same percentage would fail as would if they stayed in the Caribbean.

We have data that indicate that a DO grad has a 99% chance at matching at either a DO or MD residency (soon to be all ACGME).
What little data we have indicates that Caribbean grads match much less frequently.
The fact that these schools do not report this information is part of the reason that we cannot recommend them.

 

[the argus]

We have data that indicate that a DO grad has a 99% chance at matching at either a DO or MD residency (soon to be all ACGME).
What little data we have indicates that Caribbean grads match much less frequently.
The fact that these schools do not report this information is part of the reason that we cannot recommend them.

"More than 785 Ross graduates attained residencies in 2016. View the current list here. Please note that this list is subject to change as more residencies are added. The 2016 residency attainment rate for first-time eligible graduates was 86%."

"In 2015, more than 830 Ross graduates earned a residency position. That's a record number for our school. In 2015, the first-attempt residency attainment rate for Ross students was 88%. 99% of 2014-2015 Ross graduates who passed their United States Medical Licensing Examinations® (USMLE) on the first attempt attained a residency by April 2016."

"91% of Ross 2014-2015 graduates attained residency placements by July 1, 2016. (Residency attainment calculated after single or multiple USMLE exam attempts or residency placement attempts.)"

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm

 

[learner01]

"More than 785 Ross graduates attained residencies in 2016. View the current list here. Please note that this list is subject to change as more residencies are added. The 2016 residency attainment rate for first-time eligible graduates was 86%."

"In 2015, more than 830 Ross graduates earned a residency position. That's a record number for our school. In 2015, the first-attempt residency attainment rate for Ross students was 88%. 99% of 2014-2015 Ross graduates who passed their United States Medical Licensing Examinations® (USMLE) on the first attempt attained a residency by April 2016."

"91% of Ross 2014-2015 graduates attained residency placements by July 1, 2016. (Residency attainment calculated after single or multiple USMLE exam attempts or residency placement attempts.)"

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm

I am sure those who hate Caribbean medical schools would turn blind eye to these reports

 

[gyngyn]

"More than 785 Ross graduates attained residencies in 2016. View the current list here. Please note that this list is subject to change as more residencies are added. The 2016 residency attainment rate for first-time eligible graduates was 86%."

"In 2015, more than 830 Ross graduates earned a residency position. That's a record number for our school. In 2015, the first-attempt residency attainment rate for Ross students was 88%. 99% of 2014-2015 Ross graduates who passed their United States Medical Licensing Examinations® (USMLE) on the first attempt attained a residency by April 2016."

"91% of Ross 2014-2015 graduates attained residency placements by July 1, 2016. (Residency attainment calculated after single or multiple USMLE exam attempts or residency placement attempts.)"

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm

We need to know the real denominator to compare outcomes. Until these are reliably reported we only have the numerator.

 

[Goro]

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

Why is that? it seems graduates from there and locally are both getting into family practice!

I believe that rather than go for GPA repair, these individuals wanted thier medical degree immediately, and also, wanted the MD. They didn't get accepted because they would have failed out at a DO school, and sure enough, some 50% get kicked out of their Carib diploma mill school. Another ~25% don't match.

We do people no favors by admitting them if they can't handle med school.

Cue Argus to come in sputtering about NRMP and match rates.

I think almost all who go Caribbean would rather DO except they never got accepted!

Its about time national schools take more students and cut the bull!

 

[the argus]

We need to know the real denominator to compare outcomes. Until these are reliably reported we only have the numerator.

Look, there's no argument that Caribbean schools have significant attrition rates. Not sure what you're trying to prove here.

The original point I was responding to was this idea that if you go to a DO school you have a 95% chance of matching, but if you go to a Caribbean school you have a 50% chance. That's just nonsense and an illogical way of thinking about these things. You can't take inferences from population statistics and then try to apply them to an individual. That's not how it works.

 

[gyngyn]

Look, there's no argument that Caribbean schools have significant attrition rates. Not sure what you're trying to prove here.

The original point I was responding to was this idea that if you go to a DO school you have a 95% chance of matching, but if you go to a Caribbean school you have a 50% chance. That's just nonsense and an illogical way of thinking about these things. You can't take inferences from population statistics and then try to apply them to an individual. That's not how it works.

A real comparison of outcomes for graduates must include the attrition numbers as well as the outcomes for graduates. Schools without US accreditation do not supply this data so a realistic assessment is not possible, unfortunately.

 

[the argus]

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu




I believe that rather than go for GPA repair, these individuals wanted thier medical degree immediately, and also, wanted the MD. They didn't get accepted because they would have failed out at a DO school, and sure enough, some 50% get kicked out of their Carib diploma mill school. Another ~25% don't match.

We do people no favors by admitting them if they can't handle med school.

Cue Argus to come in sputtering about NRMP and match rates.

Glad to see someone didn't forget how to use the copy/paste feature. Everyone's favorite non-physician PhD, who teaches basic science at an osteopathic medical school, swooping in to explain to everyone how Caribbean grads are viewed by PDs. Surely he has the experience and expertise to make these claims. Now with more unsubstantiated numbers and claims. Bonus!

 

[the argus]

A real comparison of outcomes for graduates must include the attrition numbers as well as the outcomes for graduates. Schools without US accreditation do not supply this data so realistic comparisons are not possible, unfortunately.

who's trying to make comparisons? No one in this thread.

The OP was asking if they still had a chance at DO schools, not AUC vs DO.

Everyone agrees that you should go to a USMD/DO school if you can, not sure who you guys think you are arguing with.

The point is that if that's not an option, should you consider the Caribbean? It's obvious what your opinion is, thanks! I'm trying to actually paint a realistic picture so people can make an informed decision. You guys seem hell bent on making that impossible. That's fine, I'll keep doing what I'm doing as my time allows.

Cue the "it's the schools that make that impossible, not me" excuse.

 

[KingD]

who's trying to make comparisons? No one in this thread.

The OP was asking if they still had a chance at DO schools, not AUC vs DO.

Everyone agrees that you should go to a USMD/DO school if you can, not sure who you guys think you are arguing with.

The point is that if that's not an option, should you consider the Caribbean? It's obvious what your opinion is, thanks! I'm trying to actually paint a realistic picture so people can make an informed decision. You guys seem hell bent on making that impossible. That's fine, I'll keep doing what I'm doing as my time allows.

Cue the "it's the schools that make that impossible, not me" excuse.

I agree with you that people should consider the Caribbean in some cases. I certainly did consider it. However, for a great percentage of people who take this route, it is a huge mistake. People need to be very realistic when they consider going to a Caribbean school, many people overestimate their abilities. They bite off more than they can chew and they are not fit for medical school. On another note, sure if you graduate and pass your steps on the first attempt you'll probably match, but only half of the people even make it that far. That's why the OP should either attend an SMP or try again for DO before heading offshore.

 

[the argus]

I agree with you that people should consider the Caribbean in some cases. I certainly did consider it. However, for a great percentage of people who take this route, it is a huge mistake. People need to be very realistic when they consider going to a Caribbean school, many people overestimate their abilities. They bite off more than they can chew and they are not fit for medical school. On another note, sure if you graduate and pass your steps on the first attempt you'll probably match, but only half of the people even make it that far. That's why the OP should either attend an SMP or try again for DO before heading offshore.

I love these numbers that everyone is throwing around. Please explain where you get half from. I actually went to a Caribbean school, and followed the numbers throughout the time I was there. As I've stated multiple times, attrition for the year I was there was ~25%.

 

[axiomofchoice]

Theres a tremendous amount of variability. My program screens DO applicants but considers caribbean applicants. That being said - a starting DO student has a higher probability of ending up practicing medicine compared to a caribbean student... Pick your poison

 

[W19]

Theres a tremendous amount of variability. My program screens DO applicants but considers caribbean applicants. That being said - a starting DO student has a higher probability of ending up practicing medicine compared to a caribbean student... Pick your poison

That seems an easy choice to me...