Australian MD recognition

[Hopes2BMD]

Hi, can someone tell me how well is an MD degree from an Australian university (e.g. University of Melbourne- first intake in 2011 if I'm correct) recognized in the USA?
What I mean is: If someone finishes the MD program in Australia, would that degree also be equivalent to an MD degree in the US?

There are several ways in Australia to study medicine, but one of the ways functions by the same system as the one in the US (undergraduate + graduate MD program)... It's also named an MD program (e.g. at the University of Melbourne) and is it not supposed to be the same as an MD program in the US?
I also found information that the MBBS program (Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery) at the University of Queensland is equivalent to an MD degree in the US. I would just like to check if this is correct.

Is one allowed to switch from an MD program or MBBS program in Australia to an MD program in the USA without losing any years/semesters?

Also, I have heard that in order to go to medical school in the US, one must finish his/her undergraduate studies in the US. Is this true?
Is it allowed to switch from a Bachelor of Science program in Australia to a BS program in the US?

Is it possible to graduate from medical school in Australia (MD/MBBS program) and then do a residency in the USA?


I would really appreciate if someone could answer these questions for me.
Thanks.

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[Ezekiel20]

Yes the MBBS degree from Australia is 'equivalent' to a US MD. However the usual disadvantages of being an international graduate applies.

Melbourne Uni calling their medical degree an 'MD' is seen by some as a marketing ploy to lure North American students. In Australia the MD is a highly respected research degree in the field of medicine, so it will create confusion.

I have not heard of someone transferring from an Australian medical school to a US one. I would think this would be next to impossible.

It is possible to graduate from an Australian medical school and do residency in US/Canada, but many are finding it difficult to get into the competitive specialties, while getting into internal medicine/family medicine etc are relatively easier.

 

[Winged Scapula]

As above, the MBBS is for licensing and work purposes, equivalent to the US MD/DO. I agree that the "MD" designation for an undergrad degree in Oz is a marketing ploy for North American students. It conveys no additional studies or ease of working in the US.

Transferring from an international school is extremely rare, regardless of where you are coming from. You are only eligible if you have done some of your undergraduate studies in the US.

Finally, of course its possible (currently) to obtain a medical degree in Oz and then do residency in the US. There are a number of problems afoot which will make it harder but there are currently no restrictions.

 

[shan564]

To answer the OP's other question, some US med schools do accept students who have done their undergrad in countries like Australia, but it's not typical. Even if a particular school accepts international graduates, they prefer to accept American graduates (unless you make a big donation).

You should also note that it's much harder to get a certain grade average in Australia than it is to get a similar average in the US. So, if you do an undergrad in Australia, your grades don't look as good to American med school admission boards. They're not stupid - they realize that your Australian grades can't be compared to American grades - but still, it hurts their average stats if they accept a person with a lower GPA.

Transferring from a BS in Australia to a BS in the US is a similar story - some schools accept applications on a case-by-case basis (with no specific objective policy), but they'll make it difficult for you.

 

[Raigon]

Also, I have heard that in order to go to medical school in the US, one must finish his/her undergraduate studies in the US. Is this true?
Is it allowed to switch from a Bachelor of Science program in Australia to a BS program in the US?

Medical schools are one of the few cases in America where international applicants are NOT encouraged. If you have not done at least 1~3 years of undergraduate studies, unless you are exceptional (and I mean nobel-award exceptional), you will not be admitted to a US medical school. In fact, they won't even review your files. I got a couple rejection letters, but mostly it's "We are sorry to inform you that we are not able to accept your overseas coursework and degree and are unable to review your files." Which is... not exactly a rejection, it's actually worse: they won't even consider to consider you for consideration for admission.

That's where I'm failing right now. I did not know about that iron-grid rule and I applied anyway. Sucks for me that with my MCAT scores, normal US students would be able to get in with my status. You need US undergraduate grades so they can evaluate you and there are too many medical school students competing for too little residency availabilities. Probably that's why they don't encourage international students.

Unless you are a pride-stubborn guy like I am, I would suggest post-bacc programs for 1~2 years and then take the MCAT, apply for medical school. It will greatly increase your chances. I, who was rejected not because I am not capable, but because I completed my degree abroad with no supplemental US coursework, am an arrogant berk who refuses to try again because they rejected me, will look elsewhere simply because I can, even if it means I have to take the harder route. But don't be like me. It's probably not worth it for you and you're better off taking the post-bacc. That's actually the better option. I just want to spit in the face of those medical schools that rejected me due to that reason once (if, actually) I get into a competitive residency (such as my favorites: EM or general surgery) when I return there.

As for Australia's MD from Melbourne, it's not exactly crap, but it's the same package (program-wise) wrapped up differently (WOW IT'S AN MD WOW!) with a more costly tuition (ZOMG 60,000 AUD @@).

 

[Winged Scapula]

To answer the OP's other question, some US med schools do accept students who have done their undergrad in countries like Australia, but it's not typical. Even if a particular school accepts international graduates, they prefer to accept American graduates (unless you make a big donation).

Medical schools are one of the few cases in America where international applicants are NOT encouraged. If you have not done at least 1~3 years of undergraduate studies, unless you are exceptional (and I mean nobel-award exceptional), you will not be admitted to a US medical school. That's where I'm failing right now. I did not know about that iron-grid rule and I applied anyway. Sucks for me that with my MCAT scores, normal US students would be able to get in with my status. You need US undergraduate grades so they can evaluate you and there are too many medical school students competing for too little residency availabilities. Probably that's why they don't encourage international students.

This was my impression - that most, if not all US medical schools require at least 1 year undergrad in a US university. All international medical students I knew had done so, although I'm sure there's some loophole somewhere, but perusing the MSAR tells me that this requirement is pretty common.

 

[schrizto]

As for Australia's MD from Melbourne, it's not exactly crap, but it's the same package (program-wise) wrapped up differently (WOW IT'S AN MD WOW!) with a more costly tuition (ZOMG 60,000 AUD @@).

qft.

 

[toescrossed]

So basically, if one was going to choose to study medicine in Australia would they be better off studying to obtain a MBBS degree or the MD in Melbourne? And by "better off" I mean what is more respected and ultimately shape you into a better physcian?

 

[Transition]

So basically, if one was going to choose to study medicine in Australia would they be better off studying to obtain a MBBS degree or the MD in Melbourne? And by "better off" I mean what is more respected and ultimately shape you into a better physcian?

Did you not read the previous posts? They're equivalent and the renaming of the MBBS to MD by UMelb appears to be a marketing move. It is up to you as to whether a particular form of training will make you a 'better' phsysician.


Raigon, sorry to hear for your troubles man. I hope things work out for you! Keep that US citizenship handy, it will help a lot when applying for US residencies. You have a huge advantage there.

 

[Raigon]

Raigon, sorry to hear for your troubles man. I hope things work out for you! Keep that US citizenship handy, it will help a lot when applying for US residencies. You have a huge advantage there.

Thanks for the condolences. My US medical school dreams died when I heard those letters and I've been really bummed out.

I'm going for Flinders' early decision first. Because I'm actually not sure if I can make it back to the US. I want Flinders so I can practice in all 50 states, but in case I fail, I will have Australia to fall back on. If I don't get admitted, I'll go for Sydney or Queensland, regardless.

When applying for residency in the US, I hope U Syd, Flinders or UQ will give me an advantage in name. In fact, for anyone who wishes to consider going to Australia then coming back to the US, those are the only 3 three they should consider. And that means to the 2 posters above. MD has little meaning except a nice name, when in reality MBBS will be equivalent to an MD in the states and there is little or NO DIFFERENCE between that MD program in Melbourne from the MBBS. Once again, I emphasize there is nothing different from MBBS and MD except in name. I still recommend the extra post-bacc years for most people, because IMGs have little advantage over FMGs except that they have citizenship or PR. AMGs are heavily favoried because they have the home turf advantage and well... they want to localize their doctors. Same with most countries.

For IMGs like me, it will be an uphill climb, but it'll be worth it for me since taking the alternate route and succeeding will be oh-so-sweet vengeance. So far from what I've heard, U Syd has a huge advantage in reputation over UQ and Flinders. And I love their program and they have AWESOME clinical schools. I'd pay a lot just to have that school hang over my back, but still... 57 grand a year is a lot. And ugh... living expenses, living expenses, and living expenses... Oh God.

 

[schrizto]

btw Raigon, I find it a little strange that you seem to want vengeance or "spit in the face" of something that really can't feel whatever vengeance you plan to inflict. There's nothing to prove to anyone. The US med schools that rejected you didn't do it as a personal offense, and they won't feel your spite when you succeed. If I had made the mistake that you did, I would have only blamed myself for not paying attention to the rules that they set up before anyone applied. Having medical schools anthropomorphically feeling embarrassment and regret seeing you do well against odds only exists in the imagination.

I understand the feeling of needing to keep one's own pride and dignity and you seem to feel that the way to keep your own is to become an IMG, but I feel that is misguided. It's making it harder for yourself and trying to impress something that can't be impressed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

So far from what I've heard, U Syd has a huge advantage in reputation over UQ and Flinders. And I love their program and they have AWESOME clinical schools. I'd pay a lot just to have that school hang over my back, but still... 57 grand a year is a lot. And ugh... living expenses, living expenses, and living expenses... Oh God.

That may be true in Oz, but not in the states. The only reason people have "heard" of U Syd is because they have heard of the city Sydney as opposed to Matthew Flinders, Adelaide, Queensland or Brisbane.

The "rep" of a foreign school makes little significant difference if you are applying for US residency. Choose USyd because its the right school for you, but not because of some flawed idea of what US faculty thinks about its reputation. Most faculty I've worked with have little to no idea about any of the Aussie schools.

 

[Raigon]

btw Raigon, I find it a little strange that you seem to want vengeance or "spit in the face" of something that really can't feel whatever vengeance you plan to inflict. There's nothing to prove to anyone. The US med schools that rejected you didn't do it as a personal offense, and they won't feel your spite when you succeed. If I had made the mistake that you did, I would have only blamed myself for not paying attention to the rules that they set up before anyone applied. Having medical schools anthropomorphically feeling embarrassment and regret seeing you do well against odds only exists in the imagination.

I understand the feeling of needing to keep one's own pride and dignity and you seem to feel that the way to keep your own is to become an IMG, but I feel that is misguided. It's making it harder for yourself and trying to impress something that can't be impressed.

Yeah I know. I'm not really trying to blame anyone or anything. I really just want to prove to myself that I can become a doctor without relying on reapplying. I guess in reality, I blame myself most and I want to prove to myself of most people that I'm not a failure. However, the main reason I chose Australis is because Australia's medical program training is superb. I love their programs, and if I don't get a chance to return to America, I'd like to stay there and practice medicine.

This anger will probably be short term, I'll cool down later and think about other options. But I probably won't change my mind, those medical programs impress me quite a lot, actually, and they give you the solid basic training of those who have little to no clinical experience that America expects you to have prior to matriculation.

Sadly for me, in Taiwan, anything medically related, such as research and shadowing is resorted to medical school students only. Which... actually kind of sucks, and I can't get much clinical experience. I had to resort to some volunteer/orderly work. I guess I need the basic training those programs give me, because I lack in those. They go through great depths, from what I observed in their student handbook and curriculum to teach you basics, and have you learn the rest yourself, which makes a very flexible teaching environment and would give me enough time to study for the USMLEs and have sometime off for myself while grinding solid basics into me.

The biggest thing we'd have to worry about in reality would be my international status there (although that alone will give us a huge headachve). I also like the international experience. My dad's job required our family to move around a lot and I've experienced a lot of diversity. Perhaps it's meant for it. Who knows? Maybe another international experience will be really cool.

And I'll get to show off to my parents, who relied on student visas when they work and studied in the US. Guess we all have something in common.

That may be true in Oz, but not in the states. The only reason people have "heard" of U Syd is because they have heard of the city Sydney as opposed to Matthew Flinders, Adelaide, Queensland or Brisbane.

The "rep" of a foreign school makes little significant difference if you are applying for US residency. Choose USyd because its the right school for you, but not because of some flawed idea of what US faculty thinks about its reputation. Most faculty I've worked with have little to no idea about any of the Aussie schools.

That's true. But reputation is only one of the reason. I love their block training, their awesome clinical schools, Sydney is a great city (albeit a tad bit overly expensive), their flexible schedule, their... well... everything. I would consider Flinders mostly because it will give me the greatest chance for Australia internship while allowing me to consider returning to America. And plus, it's around 15K cheaper. It's actually the best school to consider if you want to leave both options available at a reasonable price, but it's the most competitive to get in of the 3 schools (20 international applicants O.O). That's why I'll go for their early decision program. And their curriculum is just as solid as Sydney's being the oldest Graduate Entry Medical Program in Australia. Adelaide is beautiful, too. It rarely snows, but sometimes there are flurries. I really miss snow, living in a snowless place called Taiwan for 7~8 years.

And well... it's also known that residency programs look better on students who graduate from schools in England, Australia, or competitive medical schools in Asia (like Japan for instance) than from other offshore or 3rd rate schools. I'd prefer it over Carribean or Poland. England's too expensive, I don't know Japanese, and I like Australia. I always wanted to go to Australia some time sooner or later.

 

[Winged Scapula]

That's true. But reputation is only one of the reason. I love their block training, their awesome clinical schools, Sydney is a great city (albeit a tad bit overly expensive), their flexible schedule, their... well... everything. I would consider Flinders mostly because it will give me the greatest chance for Australia internship while allowing me to consider returning to America. And plus, it's around 15K cheaper. It's actually the best school to consider if you want to leave both options available at a reasonable price, but it's the most competitive to get in of the 3 schools (20 international applicants O.O). That's why I'll go for their early decision program. And their curriculum is just as solid as Sydney's being the oldest Graduate Entry Medical Program in Australia.

I wasn't meaning to have you defend U Syd. Its an excellent school; I just wanted to comment that the rep here is not what it is purported in terms of significance of residency placement.

Adelaide is beautiful, too. It rarely snows, but sometimes there are flurries. I really miss snow, living in a snowless place called Taiwan for 7~8 years.

I am a Flinders grad and I can tell you I never saw snow, or even flurries in Adelaide. It does snow in the mountains but the lowest winter temps were rarely below 32F. I remember it typically being around 9 or 10 degrees C at the coldest, maybe once or twice around 4 or 5 C.

And well... it's also known that residency programs look better on students who graduate from schools in England, Australia, or competitive medical schools in Asia (like Japan for instance) than from other offshore or 3rd rate schools. I'd prefer it over Carribean or Poland. England's too expensive, I don't know Japanese, and I like Australia. I always wanted to go to Australia some time sooner or later.

No argument there from me. Some programs treat all IMGs alike; others do make a distinction.

 

[Raigon]

I wasn't meaning to have you defend U Syd. Its an excellent school; I just wanted to comment that the rep here is not what it is purported in terms of significance of residency placement.

It's okay. I'm sorry. I'm just being a bit enthusiastic about that school. It's an awesome school. If only it were a bit less expensive.

I am a Flinders grad and I can tell you I never saw snow, or even flurries in Adelaide. It does snow in the mountains but the lowest winter temps were rarely below 32F. I remember it typically being around 9 or 10 degrees C at the coldest, maybe once or twice around 4 or 5 C.

Well... at least it snows in nearby mountains if I want to take vacation there. You know Transition is going to Flinders next January, right? If you haven't already, be sure to give him some advice. And me, too if I am admitted and choose to go there. We'll (or I'll at least) need all the help I can get.

No argument there from me. Some programs treat all IMGs alike; others do make a distinction.

Oh my God, I just realized you're an attending physician! Damn. And you graduated from Flinders, too! You're a successful graduate who made it back to the US from Australia! What's your specialty if you don't mind me asking?

Can you recommend me some residency programs later on in my medical school years that look well upon Australian grads like Flinders, UQ or Sydney? When and how did you arrange your clinical rotations in the US? As in... who did you contact? US hospitals directly or have some deans or faculties in Flinders arrange them for you?

Sorry. I'm easily impressed by people like you.

 

[shan564]

Can you recommend me some residency programs later on in my medical school years that look well upon Australian grads like Flinders, UQ or Sydney? When and how did you arrange your clinical rotations in the US? As in... who did you contact? US hospitals directly or have some deans or faculties in Flinders arrange them for you?

Good question, I've been wanting to ask her that for a while, but I always hate to ask for favors (even though I'm sure she'd be happy to answer)... anyway,

Sorry. I'm easily impressed by people like you.

Nothing to apologize for; she's my hero too.

 

[schrizto]

Oh my God, I just realized you're an attending physician! Damn. And you graduated from Flinders, too! You're a successful graduate who made it back to the US from Australia! What's your specialty if you don't mind me asking?

SDN profiled some of its staff a while ago, including Winged Scapula. I don't remember much of it and can't find the page right now but she is a surgeon.

 

[Raigon]

SDN profiled some of its staff a while ago, including Winged Scapula. I don't remember much of it and can't find the page right now but she is a surgeon.

And who said that it's impossible for IMGs to get into competitive specialties like surgery? General surgery and Emergency Medicine are my favorites so far. She's definitely a role model that I aspire to be someday. First, though, of all things, I should get myself into medical school in Australia.

 

[Hopes2BMD]

Wow, congrats to Winged Scapula.
I didn't know she was a surgeon either (but I am new here).

Raigon: First of all, sorry to hear for the complications that arose regarding your US med school dreams...
About those post-baccalaureate programs you were suggesting... I've heard of those too. So, when is a person eligible to attend one of these? After finishing how many years of undergraduate studies in a foreign university? What are the prerequisites/requirements one must fulfill in order to attend one of these?

Now, I am pretty certain I understood, but I would like to check just in case.
So an Australian MBBS (or MD at Melbourne Uni) is "equivalent" to a US MD in terms of being a graduate 4 year program which one attends after undergraduate studies in order to pursue the path of medicine and become a doctor.
However it is not "equivalent" in terms of allowing a student to switch form an Aussie med school to a US med school.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, a few of you mentioned that disadvantages of being an international graduate apply. Can someone please be more precise about this? What exactly does this mean? The fact that you have to take the USMLEs and that particular residency programs are less opened to such international graduates or is there more?

Finally, what are the chances for a non US citizen (e.g. Australian) who graduates from an Australian medical school to do residency in the US?

 

[Raigon]

Wow, congrats to Winged Scapula.
I didn't know she was a surgeon either (but I am new here).

Neither did I, buddy. And I've been around for 2 years.

Raigon: First of all, sorry to hear for the complications that arose regarding your US med school dreams...
About those post-baccalaureate programs you were suggesting... I've heard of those too. So, when is a person eligible to attend one of these? After finishing how many years of undergraduate studies in a foreign university? What are the prerequisites/requirements one must fulfill in order to attend one of these?

You're able to apply for post-bacc programs upon completing an undergraduate degree. They're designed for two purposes: people with weak GPA who wish to boost their academic performance and results, and people who wish to change career, say from arts and music to medicine. They're a 1~3 year program (depending on how you schedule) that allows you to cram all the prerequisites required for most, if not all medical schools in the US.

What I would suggest is first, before you get into post-bacc, DON'T TAKE THE MCAT until you nearly finish the post-bacc. There are quite a few post-baccs that do NOT take applicants who've already taken the MCAT and applied for medical schools in the US, aka Columbia's.

Foreigners wishing to study in the US should take the post-bacc route. It's only 1~3 years and it's a relatively nice prep course-like thing that will grind solid basics hard into you. Apply for permanent residency as early as possible. How to apply, I'm not exactly sure since I'm already a US citizen without that problem or need of that knowledge, so I can't help you with that. You apply to the post-bacc program of your choice directly; in other words, to the university directly, not through AMCAS or anythinglike that. What post-bacc programs are best suited for you and what forms you have to fill out are based on your own research. Look them up yourself. I won't explain that.

Then, after you nearly complete the post-bacc, take the MCAT and start the AMCAS application. Be sure to research schools that are internationally friendly. And apply for both MD and DO at the same time. They're both equal in status, but with DO having an easier entry point than MD since it's a new concept and needs to draw in more applicants. DO has its own testing system and residency WHILE graduates can apply for MD residency programs.

Now, I am pretty certain I understood, but I would like to check just in case.
So an Australian MBBS (or MD at Melbourne Uni) is "equivalent" to a US MD in terms of being a graduate 4 year program which one attends after undergraduate studies in order to pursue the path of medicine and become a doctor.
However it is not "equivalent" in terms of allowing a student to switch form an Aussie med school to a US med school.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Um... MBBS is MD. MD is MBBS. It's just which country you're in. Some even call it other names: MBBS, BMBS, BM BCh, MB BCh BAO, or MBChB... whatever. Any of these will allow you to transfer IF the school accepts you. Do not confuse extremely difficult to impossible. Some schools (though very rarely and I mean like... one medical school with one position every few years) have openings for transfer into their schools. But it's thousands of people for one position. It's harder than applying for medical school directly and you need a helluva reference.

So basically, MBBS = MD. It's not equivalent in name only and it will allow you transfer, but the transfer to US med schools are extremely difficult to the extent in which people call it impossible.

Also, a few of you mentioned that disadvantages of being an international graduate apply. Can someone please be more precise about this? What exactly does this mean? The fact that you have to take the USMLEs and that particular residency programs are less opened to such international graduates or is there more?

Erm... this is also very complicated. There are international medical graduates (IMG) and foreign medical graduates (FMG). Some are US citizens who completed their medical degree abroad (IMG) and some are non US citizens who completed their medical degree in their home country FMG.

The thing you have to know is that every state in the US has a medical board. In the medical board are lists of medical schools they acknowledge. You have to apply for an ECFMG (Education commission for foreign medical graduate) certificate. However, there are some schools that are NOT in their directory. I don't think they even allow you to take the USMLEs if your school's not listed. As far as I know, in Australia, only Flinders, University of Queensland, and University of Sydney are accredited across the boards (of all 50 states).

And it's HARDER for IMGs than AMGs (American medical graduates). And FMGs have a near impossible chance since they don't have citizenship or permanent residence. All residency programs consider AMGs over IMGs, just some are more evenly distributed. And some residency programs don't consider non-AMGs at all. AMGs have extreme home-turf advantage. FMGs are rarely accepted because they're not US citizens.

Finally, what are the chances for a non US citizen (e.g. Australian) who graduates from an Australian medical school to do residency in the US?

Depends.

IMGs have to get higher USMLE scores and you MUST do your clinical rotations in the US to get letters of recommendations from your clinical rotation supervisor. I don't know how to do that yet, I'm still applying for medical schools in Australia. But take heart, although IMGs are more disadvantaged in applying for residency, most residency programs do give preference to countries with competitive medical schools like Australia, England, or some schools in Asia (like in Japan) over some crappy offshore programs.

Aw, all these admiration and affection for our heroine (I hope I spelled it right, she's not a drug) is making Winged Scapula shy. Now we'll never get answers to our questions.

 

[Hopes2BMD]

Neither did I, buddy. And I've been around for 2 years.
Depends.

For example, plastic surgery residency. I assume it's one of the most competitive...

So, post bacc is the best way to go for a US med school. Is it possible to finish the post bacc program in one year because that would be the best solution possible I guess... I'm asking because the Bachelor of Science degree is obtained in Australia after 3 years and the BS degree in the US, after 4 years right? So, if the post bacc program could be completed after a year with all the med school prerequisites, no years of study would be lost.

Btw, thanks a lot. You've been very helpful.

 

[Raigon]

For example, plastic surgery residency. I assume it's one of the most competitive...

So, post bacc is the best way to go for a US med school. Is it possible to finish the post bacc program in one year because that would be the best solution possible I guess... I'm asking because the Bachelor of Science degree is obtained in Australia after 3 years and the BS degree in the US, after 4 years right? So, if the post bacc program could be completed after a year with all the med school prerequisites, no years of study would be lost.

Btw, thanks a lot. You've been very helpful.

Yes it's possible. But you'd have to check with the school and arrange a very tight schedule.

There's a section in SDN dedicated to post-bacc programs. I'll post the link below:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=71

Before you ask any questions, look in their FAQs and read the threads. If you have any questions about US post-bacc programs, post it there. I'd like to help you out, but as I don't think I'll be taking the post-bacc route, I'll leave it to the people who are. If you have any questions, there will be people who know a lot about post-bacc there. I'm sure they will be very helpful.

 

[pitman]

IMGs have to get higher USMLE scores and you MUST do your clinical rotations in the US to get letters of recommendations from your clinical rotation supervisor. I don't know how to do that yet, I'm still applying for medical schools in Australia.

You'll just need to do a couple rotations in the US. USyd, Flinders and UQ all allow overseas terms and either have formal affiliations or a track record of sending students to many different US hospitals. I'm not sure about the other schools here.

 

[Raigon]

You'll just need to do a couple rotations in the US. USyd, Flinders and UQ all allow overseas terms and either have formal affiliations or a track record of sending students to many different US hospitals. I'm not sure about the other schools here.

Hi Pitman: I see you're currently a resident doctor in the US. How did you arrange for the clinical rotations? Did you contact the hospital or clinic you were interested in or did you have your faculty staff members at Queensland do it for you? And do you have a post or thread that shared your experience of success in returning (or going) to the US to practice medicine?

I'm interested most in Emergency Medicine or General Surgery. If not, then probably intensive care. All of which are competitive, but EM will be the easiest of the three (but still a difficult uphill climb, I know!) and EM is my first choice. I've volunteered in ERs and I LOVE the environment of fast-paced medical resuscitation.

I've considered the Caribbean route and Australia. With the Caribbean route, you get a better chance of clinical rotations and matching with a worse off reputation and medical training. With Australia, I probably have a lesser chance in residency matching, but I get solid medical training with a reputable school that I can respect. I'm choosing Australia. If not Australia, then post-bacc and reapplying for MD/DO. Last choice would be Carribean and I would be desperate if I have to choose that.

And congratulations on your residency. Probably haven't been around long enough to congratulate you when you got your first residency. Hope you get either a fellowship or attending soon!

 

[Winged Scapula]

You guys are funny. No need for hero(ine) worship here, its something that anyone could do, thanks for the nice comments.

BTW, if you want to know more about SDN users, clicking on their user name above the avatar will give you a drop down menu. View User Profile can give you more information, at least for users who choose to fill those out.

Oh my God, I just realized you're an attending physician! Damn. And you graduated from Flinders, too! You're a successful graduate who made it back to the US from Australia! What's your specialty if you don't mind me asking?

Can you recommend me some residency programs later on in my medical school years that look well upon Australian grads like Flinders, UQ or Sydney?

Get back to me once you've gotten into medical school and decided on a specialty (something like 80% of students change their mind during medical school about what field to pursue. I, for one, NEVER dreamed of surgery and was one of the few who ended up pursuing it, in my class.)

When and how did you arrange your clinical rotations in the US? As in... who did you contact? US hospitals directly or have some deans or faculties in Flinders arrange them for you?

I arranged all my clinical rotations on my own by contacting US hospitals directly; some through official channels posted on their web sites and in other instances, contacting people I knew. I did medical research for a number of years prior to medical school so had some contacts.

Remember when I was a student at Flinders, I was in the second class of the GEMP, so there wasn't much in place in terms of formal rotations, so my classmates and I did a lot ourselves, and stressed the importance of these rotations with the faculty.

I got Flinders to extend my final year under student status so I would have time to do more US rotations and to allow me to do several rotations here.

SDN profiled some of its staff a while ago, including Winged Scapula. I don't remember much of it and can't find the page right now but she is a surgeon.

Here is the link:http://www.studentdoctor.net/2007/02/member-profile-kimberli-s-cox-md/

Please ignore the old picture there - that was taken during fellowship. A more recent one from this summer is on my profile page.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm interested most in Emergency Medicine or General Surgery. If not, then probably intensive care. All of which are competitive, but EM will be the easiest of the three (but still a difficult uphill climb, I know!) and EM is my first choice. I've volunteered in ERs and I LOVE the environment of fast-paced medical resuscitation.

FYI: critical/intensive care is a fellowship after either Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Pediatrics or Anesthesiology. You do not match into it out of medical school.

 

[Raigon]

FYI: critical/intensive care is a fellowship after either Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Pediatrics or Anesthesiology. You do not match into it out of medical school.

Ah yeah, sorry got that confused =P.

I checked out your profile. You look like a character from ER... Susan Lewis was it? Or was it her sister? Can't remember, I watched that series like... ages ago. Still, you remind me of a character from that show.

Wait, how come you have an MD if you graduated from Flinders? They handed out BMBS? Or was it automatically converted to an MD in the States?

Onto a more serious topic... do you know anything about Flinders' early decision program thingy?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ah yeah, sorry got that confused =P.

I checked out your profile. You look like a character from ER... Susan Lewis was it? Or was it her sister? Can't remember, I watched that series like... ages ago. Still, you remind me of a character from that show.

Hmmm...I've never heard that. I don't think I look much like her at all, actually.

Wait, how come you have an MD if you graduated from Flinders? They handed out BMBS? Or was it automatically converted to an MD in the States?

I have an MBBS. Degrees are not "automatically" converted. I use MD because it is widely recognized and accepted to use in place of the MBBS in the US. Believe me, if my partner, who has a DO, gets patients who refuse to see her because she's not a "real doctor", I'd have a huge problem with MBBS which almost no one outside of medicine in the US recognizes.

Onto a more serious topic... do you know anything about Flinders' early decision program thingy?

Nope, sounds like something recent.

 

[Raigon]

I have an MBBS. Degrees are not "automatically" converted. I use MD because it is widely recognized and accepted to use in place of the MBBS in the US. Believe me, if my partner, who has a DO, gets patients who refuse to see her because she's not a "real doctor", I'd have a huge problem with MBBS which almost no one outside of medicine in the US recognizes.

I'm more confused along the line of the fact that if you have an MBBS, what will be written on your nametag as an attending doctor - "MD" or "MBBS"? Is it legal to call yourself MD if you have MBBS (I know they're pretty much equivalent except in name, but you still graduated with the MBBS title...) What about for any publications, like say (hopefully) in either the New England Journal or Nature - do you write MD or MBBS? I'm worried about whether you can use the MD title legally or not if you actually have the MBBS title, or... is it not as serious as I'm thinking right now? Because I know that if you have a DO, you can't get away with calling yourself MD legally.

Gosh, I hope I didn't offend you with that. I'm just a bit paranoid with legal and moral issues. But that's just me. You're still my future role model I aspire to become.

Speaking of which, I asked Dr. Tony edwards directly what my chances are (head of the international admissions office) and he said my MCAT score could be sufficient to get me shortlisted for an interview if combined with at least a 3.2~3.3/3.4 GPA. Erm... schools in Asia don't use the GPA system, how do I calculate it? Do I use the 7.0 scale or the 4.0 scale? ==+ Never mind, I'll ask the school directly. Hope they weren't lying when they said they consider the highest score within 2 years and not the most recent.

Well, I'll leave that alone and leave the rest up to fate. I won't ask anymore stuff unless I get an interview. Early decision opens on January 12, 2010. Should probably start with the applications. Won't bug you with it unless I get an interview; but I'll probably just ask for some basic tips on the previous interview questions posted on the paging drs website.

The last question I'll ask regarding Australia is probably: How important is prior clinical experience to medical training in Australia? Is it okay if you don't have much clinical experience prior to entry because as I mentioned early, aside from some basic volunteer work in hospitals, I'm not allowed to do anything medically related in Taiwan like medical research or shadowing (only medical school students are allowed that and they are treated like Gods since only the top 0.5% make it to medical colleges - 500 students total in the country per year out of 100,000 test takers and it's all undergraduate entry combinedprograms) and I'm worried that even if I get in, I'm not sure I'll be up to speed with all the rest of the class in terms of prior experience.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm more confused along the line of the fact that if you have an MBBS, what will be written on your nametag as an attending doctor - "MD" or "MBBS"? Is it legal to call yourself MD if you have MBBS (I know they're pretty much equivalent except in name, but you still graduated with the MBBS title...)

I'm not sure why you are confused. Your nametag in the hospital is not a legal document. It is not "illegal" to use MD if you have an MBBS (or other non-standard US degree) and it is commonly done for purposes like identifying yourself to patients. On applications, however, when they ask for my degree, I state MBBS. All my mail from the American College of Surgeons and the state licensing bureau is addressed to Winged Scapula, MBBS.

I've encountered many foreign trained nationals in the US and cannot ever recall seeing MBBS, MChB, etc. on name tags, hospital faculty lists, etc. You may feel free to do whatever is common where you train.

There are dozens of threads on SDN about this very topic; please do a search if you feel the need to read more about it.

What about for any publications, like say (hopefully) in either the New England Journal or Nature - do you write MD or MBBS? I'm worried about whether you can use the MD title legally or not if you actually have the MBBS title, or... is it not as serious as I'm thinking right now? Because I know that if you have a DO, you can't get away with calling yourself MD legally.

I haven't submitted anything for publication since I've graduated, but I would use my actual degree. Again, when asked for your degree for licensing, credentialing, etc. you give the degree you were awarded. When putting it on a nametag, you can choose to do whatever you want. MBBS is not recognized by the general public in the US. DOs can't use the MD because its a different degree, MBBS is not considered a different degree. Its NOT as serious as you are making it out to be. Use whatever you want...I live in a relatively unsophisticated area where its important to be as a clear as possible about what I do. MBBS would only obsfuscate that. I don't wear a nametag on a daily basis so don't think about it much.

Gosh, I hope I didn't offend you with that. I'm just a bit paranoid with legal and moral issues. But that's just me. You're still my future role model I aspire to become.

I'm not offended in the least. There is nothing illegal about using MD if you've been awarded the MBBS, MBCh, etc. in the US. Moral? This is not a morality issue either.

Speaking of which, I asked Dr. Tony edwards directly what my chances are (head of the international admissions office) and he said my MCAT score could be sufficient to get me shortlisted for an interview if combined with at least a 3.2~3.3/3.4 GPA. Erm... schools in Asia don't use the GPA system, how do I calculate it? Do I use the 7.0 scale or the 4.0 scale? ==+ Never mind, I'll ask the school directly. Hope they weren't lying when they said they consider the highest score within 2 years and not the most recent.

I know Tony Edwards, he's been there since I was a student. Good guy. Ask Flinders how they want you to calculate the gpa system; we don't use a 7.0 scale, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. When I was a student there they didn't have us calculate the gpa, they did it for us. They used the last two years, not the highest score/gpa, for calculating gpa for us.

Well, I'll leave that alone and leave the rest up to fate. I won't ask anymore stuff unless I get an interview. Early decision opens on January 12, 2010. Should probably start with the applications. Won't bug you with it unless I get an interview; but I'll probably just ask for some basic tips on the previous interview questions posted on the paging drs website.

You'd be better off asking someone who is a more recent student at Flinders. I interviewed there 14 years ago...undoubtedly some things have changed.

The last question I'll ask regarding Australia is probably: How important is prior clinical experience to medical training in Australia? Is it okay if you don't have much clinical experience prior to entry because as I mentioned early, aside from some basic volunteer work in hospitals, I'm not allowed to do anything medically related in Taiwan like medical research or shadowing (only medical school students are allowed that and they are treated like Gods since only the top 0.5% make it to medical colleges - 500 students total in the country per year out of 100,000 test takers and it's all undergraduate entry combinedprograms) and I'm worried that even if I get in, I'm not sure I'll be up to speed with all the rest of the class in terms of prior experience.

Most of my class did not have clinical experience except the Americans. I'm not sure if that's changed; again, check with someone who has been there more recently.

 

[Raigon]

I'm not sure why you are confused. Your nametag in the hospital is not a legal document. It is not "illegal" to use MD if you have an MBBS (or other non-standard US degree) and it is commonly done for purposes like identifying yourself to patients. On applications, however, when they ask for my degree, I state MBBS. All my mail from the American College of Surgeons and the state licensing bureau is addressed to Winged Scapula, MBBS.

I've encountered many foreign trained nationals in the US and cannot ever recall seeing MBBS, MChB, etc. on name tags, hospital faculty lists, etc. You may feel free to do whatever is common where you train.

There are dozens of threads on SDN about this very topic; please do a search if you feel the need to read more about it.



I haven't submitted anything for publication since I've graduated, but I would use my actual degree. Again, when asked for your degree for licensing, credentialing, etc. you give the degree you were awarded. When putting it on a nametag, you can choose to do whatever you want. MBBS is not recognized by the general public in the US. DOs can't use the MD because its a different degree, MBBS is not considered a different degree. Its NOT as serious as you are making it out to be. Use whatever you want...I live in a relatively unsophisticated area where its important to be as a clear as possible about what I do. MBBS would only obsfuscate that. I don't wear a nametag on a daily basis so don't think about it much.



I'm not offended in the least. There is nothing illegal about using MD if you've been awarded the MBBS, MBCh, etc. in the US. Moral? This is not a morality issue either.



I know Tony Edwards, he's been there since I was a student. Good guy. Ask Flinders how they want you to calculate the gpa system; we don't use a 7.0 scale, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. When I was a student there they didn't have us calculate the gpa, they did it for us. They used the last two years, not the highest score/gpa, for calculating gpa for us.



You'd be better off asking someone who is a more recent student at Flinders. I interviewed there 14 years ago...undoubtedly some things have changed.



Most of my class did not have clinical experience except the Americans. I'm not sure if that's changed; again, check with someone who has been there more recently.

I'll probably check with Transition. He'll be attending Flinders soon and he's a really nice guy. But he'll be staying there. I'll probably be asking for help from you if I make it in and plan to return to the states. But let's not get ahead of myself, shall I? I should make it into medical school first before making hypothetical questions like these.

Regarding the 2 years, er... I meant he said Flinders will consider the highest MCAT score within 2 years of application. For GPA they'll use the last 3 years.

Hmm... the 7.00 was on the GAMSAT calculator... I thought... ah well, probably confusing myself. I'll leave it up to them. I was just a bit overjoyed when Dr. Tony Edwards said my combination could be sufficient to be short-listed for an interview. Now I'm going to apply and see if what he said is true.

And yes he is a nice person. And so are you. Thanks for your help! As I said, I'll do the rest myself and I won't bug you unless I have any questions I can't find anyone else but you to answer.

Best wishes to both of us. I have a final exam to prepare for. I'm off.

 

[pitman]

And yes he is a nice person.

Ditto! Tony was the most helpful of admissions people when I was applying to Flinders, UQ and USyd back in 2003. I also enjoyed my interview with him in Adelaide more than any of the others.