Australian Med schools

[UsydGrad]

Banana K:

Sorry to inform you. GP is a "specialty" in Australia! (And in N. America where it is called Family Practice.) It requires admission to RACGP [after your first or second year of prevocational (JMO) training] and completion of the RACGP training program (a few years). Recent grads, interns, RMOs, registrars (GP and otherwise) are NOT on the list. You can confirm for yourself. Were you thinking you became a GP when you graduated? Are you in school in Australia? Or just thinking about it?

Fully qualified ("board certified", "college fellow" depending on where you did your qualification) medical practitioners are on the list!

Again, sorry if I dashed your hopes. It is unfortunate that this myth persists! It is not fair to continue to propagate it. Although PR is possible, if you are a med student in Australia, you are NOT going to have access to those 60 SOL points. If you leave after graduation, get board certified (ie. complete a residency and fellowship exams in the US or elsewhere) and THEN return to Australia, presumably you would have access to the 60 points. At which point you will be subject to the 10 year moratorium (workforce shortage areas only). I don't think most international students would consider this a desirable career path. Is it becoming clearer?

As always, confirm for yourself. In this case, I would recommend checking out the SOL at the DIMA website and the RACGP website. If it doesn't make sense, you can consult a migration agent or immigration attourney. I have found them helpful.

actually, USyd, they are on the list... every specialty AND the GP designation is worth 60 points on the skilled migration points test. i'm not sure whether there is a separate stream for specialists vs GP's in ADDITION to the skilled migration stream, but from what i recall surfing the DIMIA web page, they were included there too.

didn't you say you were leaving the forum at some point?

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[banana k]

actually, i have consulted migration agents, and i have found them helpful--actually a lot more so than you! you get the 60 points after a short period as a JMO--and, during that time, you can use the graduate temporary work visa.

so, now that we all agree on being jaded, self-hating anti-aussies who will never get jobs in any country, can you fulfill your declaration to go somewhere else?

to everyone else, esp those in practice: ever miss science? like, actually going and doing it instead of just explaining it to patients?

 

[UsydGrad]

Banana K:

Just what SOL code do you plan to use?

Most PACs will "sponsor" you for PR if you put in some time as a JMO (terms vary but often there are conditions -- ie. that you work in some designated awful rural place for some amount of time, do additional JMO years, etc.). It is always "subject to changes in immigration policy". I would suggest that you (and your lawyer!) get any such promises in writing -- what form they plan to use and what if any conditions are involved. [I've had some experience with this. I am very glad I asked the right questions and did not take the bait.] And remember, sponsorship is no guarentee that your PR application will be approved.

If you do get PR (go for it while you are still a student if you have some "qualification" or "connection"), you're likely looking at a decade of "rural" with little opportunity for specialty training (there is a move on to create a college of rural general practitioners separate from RACGP -- talk about limiting your options!) Sorry, it's not a rosy picture.

Such "sponsorship" has nothing to do with the SOL. JMO is not a skilled occupation!

I don't know what year you are but such "sponsorship" of visa JMOs is a relatively recent phenomenon (really, just the last few years) and will likely drop off with the increasing numbers of graduates over the next few years. It is a temporary stop gap measure.

I urge all readers to verify this situation for themselves. Look at the SOL for medical professionals on the DIMA site. It is really quite clear. They want doctors who have completed their training.

Cheers!

PS. Hey, migration agents more helpful than I? I would certainly hope so!

PPS. I am not sure what you mean by explaining science to patients. So, is that what doctors do?

Additionally, for anyone looking for a science-oriented medical curriculum, there are better places than GEMPs. (I won't elaborate here as this issue has been addressed extensively in the literature and in the press.)

actually, i have consulted migration agents, and i have found them helpful--actually a lot more so than you! you get the 60 points after a short period as a JMO--and, during that time, you can use the graduate temporary work visa.

to everyone else, esp those in practice: ever miss science? like, actually going and doing it instead of just explaining it to patients?

 

[pitman]

If you do get PR (go for it while you are still a student if you have some "qualification" or "connection"), you're likely looking at a decade of "rural" with little opportunity for specialty training (there is a move on to create a college of rural general practitioners separate from RACGP -- talk about limiting your options!) Sorry, it's not a rosy picture.

1) Not just rural, or GP: Not sure about other states, but in Queensland, the exemptions in Districts of Workforce Shortage are all over the place, including IN Brisbane (e.g., Mater Emergency)! *If* NSW is different, I'd like to see the qualification, but the generalization above is clearly misleading. Here's a map of those Districts for the outer-metro Brisbane area (striped swaths are designated Workforce Shortage areas, with solid blue under consideration):

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/w...orkforce-new-new-maps.html/$FILE/brisbane.pdf

(for reference, Brisbane to Logan, directly south, is about a 35min drive.)

2) The moratorium does not apply if you work in a public hospital (different payment schemes...there's no problem w/ int'ls working there from internship onwards). Most hospitals are public.

The moratorium rather prevents ppl for 10 years from setting up private practice outside of the Districts of Workforce Shortage. QLD also has a Doctors for the Bush programme that cuts down the moratorium to 5 years for GPs who have FRACGP accreditation or equivalence and who want to go to the REAL bush (only somewhat relevant to int'l students since it takes 3-5 years to get FRACGP, but thought I'd add it...btw those who get FRACGP in the shortest time do so b.c. they train in RURAL/BUSH!

3) Not rosy? No one's being forced to go for any particular specialty, including the potential rural med college. It's a bit elitist/pretentious to claim such a specialty, if chosen, would be overly limiting -- gee, gas and psych and rads are just soooo limiting!!

-pitman

 

[Drlander76]

hi all,
i have to agree with you on that. myself i am new on thir forum, however could do anything to not waste my time reading that nasty paragrahp Drusmedstud wrote . again we are all adults (hopefully0 and we are here to benefit one another with info. that eventually might get us to our aim goals.

just be nice next time, if not >>>>>>>>>

 

[USMedStudent]

Like I said, people believe what they want to believe. This is too important an issue to get personal in. I personally never had any problems with 99% of people I met in Australia. The time I was there, in fact, was one of my best periods of time ever, in and out of school. Some Oz individuals never liked me there, but so what, I still came out hard, strong, and proud. Dr. Teubner was THE most caring professor I ever met, and Dr. Tony Edwards was not too far behind. When Dr. Teubner died, I was the only one student I know that cried. I was in her office a month or two before that, and she told me of her leg and spine bone pain. I didn't want to show it, but my tears just dropped.

It's the SYSTEM that I am talking about. Nothing personal, or even school-specific. I don't doubt their honesty, their trying to do best for ALL students and for their school, but lots of Oz med school officials - I mean all schools, not any specific one - miscalculate the drastic differences between the Oz and the US med school systems. What's best in one is very difficult or even possible at all to be also best in the other. To satisfy both is a near-impossible task. If you watch tennis, you know why Andre Agassi never went too far at French Open, in the same game he's won just about everywhere else. It's not the French's fault, is it?

Just take the OSCE for example. Oz schools have to recruit local patients, many or most of them never talked to a non-Oz before in their life. My landlords admited they never traveled 30 km out of their beautiful house. What's considered "normal" or "desirable" in Canada or the US may be PERCEIVED as rude, impolite, unacceptable, etc., in their local standards. Worse thing that I learned is you should never crack a joke even in order to break the ice, because most likely they won't click on. Imagine you must take the STEP 2 CS in which all patients are from, say, West Virginia, or South Brooklyn, who never traveled out of their state. Oz schools can not possibly recruit hundreds of well-balanced mock patients that have had Canadian, US, Oz experiences. So, your speech may be too fast or too specific for them to understand, so in all honesty they MUST give you a low score based on their true impression.

Then their PBL teaching and learning. For the massive amount of info that US students must learn, they must be spoon-fed quickly in order to pass the Boards. It's not the best way to learn. It's the ONLY way to pass the Boards. Doctors will have the rest of their life to learn, but students must pass the Boards FIRST. PBL may be good for doctors, but not for students at THIS time in their career. PBL takes away too much time from students, so they know insufficient materials for the Boards, but for that price to pay they have very adequate skills to search for materials which unfortunately they don't need right NOW to get on with their career.

Anyone that has taken Step 3 would agree that PBL is perfect for it.

So, if any of you out there that are still out of the system, you must learn anew massive amount of materials that US students are spoon-fed from Day 1 of med schools. Alone or with Kaplan, you must substitute the work of the entire faculty in a US med school, many such members have had decades of teaching experiences. They teach what will likely be on the Boards, not what they or you want to know. Lately I've given a few lectures, and I was specifically instructed to do just that. Just Board stuff FIRST, everything else is left to the end of lectures for those who care - usually none.

Learning from books or even from Kaplan videos is like you try to learn boxing from watching it. You don't have the frustration, the experience, of painful mini failures that most US med students have to go through in their 4 yrs of school. Most have failed a few quizzes, exams, lab reports, etc., but they learned quickly not to repeat. But you the highly motivated students, without running 5K, 8K, suddenly you must run the marathon Boards without smaller runs, smaller exhaustion, smaller falls. It's like you go to the Olympics without doing the city competitions.

And, about what some people at Queensland or Sydney med schools say, I still maintain that Oz schools are less than straightforward with you all about the statistics, if you can call those as "statistics" at all about their student performance on Boards, and on getting the Residency. Lots of biases there in their "info," that their "info" could be Board questions on what a biased statictics could be about. How many of their students passed the Boards on FIRST attempt WHILE being in school is what you need to know, not those that passed years after graduating, even on first attempt, but most importantly you need to know the percentage of their graduates that get the residency right after graduating, not years after.

About US clinical experiences, I already mentioned in a previous post. You can choose to believe or ignore, that's your choice, YOUR life.

That's it. Good luck to you all. Again, this is too important for YOU to get personal in. I am too thick-skinned for you to even try to annoy or irritate me with your personal comments.

PGY-2 IM

 

[pitman]

pompous as ever i see.

btw sorry to hear you didn't catch on to the humor while you were in Oz -- it's really not any harder to make pts laugh here (coming from a bostonian).

 

[pitman]

...and my how quickly "6" months flies by

Gearing up for Chief Res, eh? glad to see how well your Aussie education has paid off. Oh, that's right, but you're better than your peers and a freak exception to what your dismal education here pumped out, 'cause of your superhuman ability to persevere in the worst of circumstances, alone. Something like that?

3/31/05:

I am on here to gather info for my duty as Chief Resident next year, when I'll be involved in screening and interviewing candidates. This is my last post on the issue, for at least 6 months. God bless you all.

Year-2 IM Resident

 

[Purifyer]

...and my how quickly "6" months flies by

Gearing up for Chief Res, eh? glad to see how well your Aussie education has paid off. Oh, that's right, but you're better than your peers and a freak exception to what your dismal education here pumped out, 'cause of your superhuman ability to persevere in the worst of circumstances, alone. Something like that?

3/31/05:

Don't drag yourself down pitman. When I first saw his page long post I was just about ready to fastreply with another tissue offering. After reading it however he mostly just presents his opinion as opinion which is fair enough.

His issue regarding 'The average australian patient isn't a well rounded academic who has international travel experience and enjoys my form of humour' was quite amusing, I thought, but once again really reflects more on USmedstudent as opposed to Australia.

How are you going in med at the moment pitman?

 

[pitman]

Yeah, but his ridiculous comments on Aussie patients & humor speaks volumes about his pompous, myopic attitude that colours everything else he spews. Thus I do certainly see why he was probably advised not to joke w/ pts.

Midyears coming in 3 weeks. Not too worried, but I'll do my ritual and rent a place up the coast w/ a buddy and study hardcore for a week. After break i'll start USMLE prep, but will prob put off the exam until end of next year.

You?

 

[USMedStudent]

If you're an Indian these days in Oz...

And especially if your last name is Patel...

And more specifically if you are a Patel in any medical fields...

Guess you must be brain-dead not to have heard of Dr. Jayant Patel.

Now every Oz is a MEDICAL SPECIALIST. All are so adamant that Dr. Patel was a killer, murderer, despite their own independent team of medical experts begs to differ: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15626012-2,00.html

But if you go to Google and do a search on Jayant Patel, you don't see the website above. You'll see thousands of websites mostly from Oz saying he was a murderer, an insane killer, etc. Kids in Oz high school now condemn him. Oz housewives are praying they'll never get anywhere close to doctors that have anything to do with India.

Now everyone in Oz is talking of INDIAN-BORN Dr. Death.

Now he's responsible for anyone that was once near him and died. Now all people with pancreatic cancer (Px is a favorite board question) that died while under his care were certainly murdered, killed, by him, even if when they met him they had less than a month to live. Now everyone that didn't have his or her wound dressings changed everyday while under his care was mistreated by him, despite routine medical practice says it's the job of nurses, residents, not surgeons. Now he's blamed for not putting on the gloves while doing Foley cath, while everyone knows it's never the surgeon's job to do that, unless in case of extreme emergency.

Now nobody says of at least 2,000 patients he helped, but everyone is saying of 87 that he "killed" despite the independent team of MEDICAL experts decided he was responsible for at most only 13 "adverse outcomes" out of over 2,000 patients he treated. Remember, those 2,000 patients were extreme, most of whom had already been turned away by many other surgeons as not being good candidates for surgery, or didn't have the luxury of time to be transported to major medical center hundreds or thousands of km away.

I guess few folks in Australia ever heard of the term "admission-rate bias." They know of "racist," "racism," much better. Now they link INDIAN-BORN with Dr. Death much better, as if he someone represented over 1 billion Indians, or conversely as if any of those 1 billion+ Indians had anything to do with him who left India at least 30 years ago, who spoke with a thick American accent (that got him hired in the first place).

I am no Indian, but I know enough to say the whole thing is blown way out of proportion by the extremely RACIST Australian culture, government, people. If he was really so incompetent, it was the SYSTEM's fault that he was not stopped after the FIRST wrongly death. At my medical center, he would have been stopped after the FIRST WRONGLY ADVERSE OUTCOME, not even death. If anything, therefore, it is the Oz system's fault, not his, that he was allowed to cause allegedly 87 deaths. I feel bad for non-Anglo Saxons there especially those who are working in that incompetent medical system. I am glad I am out of it, all in one piece. Dr. Patel should have known better. If only he had come across this board before he left for that country, that system...

If you've read the things I write around here, and choose to stay or to go there, may God bless you and be with you. Chances are you may be responsible for any tsunami or storms there someday, 'cause you bring bad luck to their beautiful country.

 

[f_w]

I am not sure what this rant has to do with the issue of australian medical schools.

But if you bring it up. This guy got his medical license restricted in NY and Oregon due to similar problems. It appears as if he deliberately hid this fact from the aussie authorities when he applied for his registration.

Oregon medical board:

PATEL, Jayant M., MD15991, Portland, OR

An amended stipulated order was entered on September 12, 2000. The order restricted licensee from performing surgeries involving the pancreas, liver resections, and ileoanal pouch constructions.

New York Medical board:

Physician Name: Jayant M Patel, MD
Address: 3739 Northwest Bluegrass Place
Portland, Oregon 97220
License Number: 142170
License Type: MD
Year of Birth: 1950
Effective Date: 05/10/2001
Action: License surrender
Misconduct Description: The physician did not contest the charge of having been disciplined by the Oregon State Board of Medical Examiners for negligence involving surgical patients.
Board Order:


While the hysteria is probably a bit overblown, I don't doubt that there were serious patient care issues present. And if everything he did is defendable, why did he choose to skip the country ? The guy seems to be a real treasure. Or how many people do you know who get their license put on probation for incompetence already during residency ?

You can think about the aussie medical system whatever you want, but J Patel is not a good cast for the 'tragic hero destroyed by the terrible aussie medical system'.

 

[deleted59964]

If you're an Indian these days in Oz...

And especially if your last name is Patel...

And more specifically if you are a Patel in any medical fields...

Guess you must be brain-dead not to have heard of Dr. Jayant Patel.

Now every Oz is a MEDICAL SPECIALIST. All are so adamant that Dr. Patel was a killer, murderer, despite their own independent team of medical experts begs to differ: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15626012-2,00.html

But if you go to Google and do a search on Jayant Patel, you don't see the website above. You'll see thousands of websites mostly from Oz saying he was a murderer, an insane killer, etc. Kids in Oz high school now condemn him. Oz housewives are praying they'll never get anywhere close to doctors that have anything to do with India.

Now everyone in Oz is talking of INDIAN-BORN Dr. Death.

Now he's responsible for anyone that was once near him and died. Now all people with pancreatic cancer (Px is a favorite board question) that died while under his care were certainly murdered, killed, by him, even if when they met him they had less than a month to live. Now everyone that didn't have his or her wound dressings changed everyday while under his care was mistreated by him, despite routine medical practice says it's the job of nurses, residents, not surgeons. Now he's blamed for not putting on the gloves while doing Foley cath, while everyone knows it's never the surgeon's job to do that, unless in case of extreme emergency.

Now nobody says of at least 2,000 patients he helped, but everyone is saying of 87 that he "killed" despite the independent team of MEDICAL experts decided he was responsible for at most only 13 "adverse outcomes" out of over 2,000 patients he treated. Remember, those 2,000 patients were extreme, most of whom had already been turned away by many other surgeons as not being good candidates for surgery, or didn't have the luxury of time to be transported to major medical center hundreds or thousands of km away.

I guess few folks in Australia ever heard of the term "admission-rate bias." They know of "racist," "racism," much better. Now they link INDIAN-BORN with Dr. Death much better, as if he someone represented over 1 billion Indians, or conversely as if any of those 1 billion+ Indians had anything to do with him who left India at least 30 years ago, who spoke with a thick American accent (that got him hired in the first place).

I am no Indian, but I know enough to say the whole thing is blown way out of proportion by the extremely RACIST Australian culture, government, people. If he was really so incompetent, it was the SYSTEM's fault that he was not stopped after the FIRST wrongly death. At my medical center, he would have been stopped after the FIRST WRONGLY ADVERSE OUTCOME, not even death. If anything, therefore, it is the Oz system's fault, not his, that he was allowed to cause allegedly 87 deaths. I feel bad for non-Anglo Saxons there especially those who are working in that incompetent medical system. I am glad I am out of it, all in one piece. Dr. Patel should have known better. If only he had come across this board before he left for that country, that system...

If you've read the things I write around here, and choose to stay or to go there, may God bless you and be with you. Chances are you may be responsible for any tsunami or storms there someday, 'cause you bring bad luck to their beautiful country.

The media here did a story on how dependant rural Australia is on "overseas" born doctors. They interviewed Patel's victim's families, and they went to great length to describe their belief that they needed more overseas doctors, and that they did not judge other foreign doctors harshly because of the Patel case.

There are some racist fools in Australia, I don't deny it - just as there are racist fools in EVERY country. But the only person here spreading hatred by making sweeping generalisations and descriminating against an entire country's population based on there own limited experience is ... you.

Why don't you go home where you believe you will get a better education anyway? Maybe you can even learn from the great American board certified surgeon Mr. Patel.

Oh and by the way Google is an AMERICAN company, we AUSTRALIANS don't dictate how google ranks websites. And the OTHER source that you cite - supposedly of a more balanced view www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15626012-2,00.html - is an AUSTRALIAN WEBSITE , see the .au bit ?

 

[USMedStudent]

He may very well be really guilty. That, we don't know. But why every newsource in Oz puts "INDIAN-BORN" before "Dr. Death"? First of, he is not legally guilty. Secondly, even if he may be found guilty someday, what would it have anything to do with "INDIAN-BORN"? He does not represent India. And no Indians have anything to do with him. If anything, he is a US-trained American doctor. He has lived much longer in the US than in India, but of course since no Ozs including their Prime Minister dare to say anything against America and Americans, those FACTS are cowardly ignored.

That's characteristic of bullies. Deep down, they're cowards. They worship some, ridicule some. They never know how to play FAIR.

In Oz, it's so easy to make someone sound guilty, look guilty, be guilty, by calling him/her INDIAN-BORN, LEBANESE-BORN, etc. I know it, because I was once quite deeply involved in that most RACIST system, country, in the world. The Oz legal system doesn't work by jurors, jury. Defendants are found guilty or not by judges, 99.99% of them are Anglo-Saxons. Minorities need not apply to law schools there. If they do, and if they are 10 times better than any of their classmates, they may become Solicitors who rarely are allowed to argue in court. Only Barristers can, and I don't know of any of those that are not Anglo-Saxons. The rate is perhaps 100%.

Dr. Patel would have absolutely no chance to have a fair trial anywhere in that country. He was already found guilty by his look, his last name. Not a single newsource in Oz has even implied that he may be innocent. I read The Age, the Advertiser, Sydney Morning, etc., all didn't even say he was ALLEGED as having done such and such.

This ties up with what I've been saying all along: Oz is a very RACIST country. Oz schools, medical schools, are EXTREMELY RACIST against all those that are non Anglo-Saxons. I said, in the OSCE exam in a medical school there, most years I was there, 100% Oriental students were made to fail, while nobody else was. The correlation between being Orientals and failing the OSCE was 100%, while that of being Anglo-Saxons was 0%.

 

[captaindargo]

We have our own Doctor Death, Doctor Kevorkian


Jack Kevorkian (born May 26, 1928) is a controversial American medical doctor.

He is famous for his support for the "right to die" and for assisting the suicides of over 100 people. He is currently in prison in Michigan.

Kevorkian was born in 1928 in Pontiac, Michigan the son of Armenian immigrants. He received a medical degree with a specialty in pathology from the University of Michigan in 1952.

 

[ellehcim]

In Oz, it's so easy to make someone sound guilty, look guilty, be guilty, by calling him/her INDIAN-BORN, LEBANESE-BORN, etc. I know it, because I was once quite deeply involved in that most RACIST system, country, in the world. The Oz legal system doesn't work by jurors, jury. Defendants are found guilty or not by judges, 99.99% of them are Anglo-Saxons. Minorities need not apply to law schools there. If they do, and if they are 10 times better than any of their classmates, they may become Solicitors who rarely are allowed to argue in court. Only Barristers can, and I don't know of any of those that are not Anglo-Saxons. The rate is perhaps 100%.

Dr. Patel would have absolutely no chance to have a fair trial anywhere in that country. He was already found guilty by his look, his last name. Not a single newsource in Oz has even implied that he may be innocent. I read The Age, the Advertiser, Sydney Morning, etc., all didn't even say he was ALLEGED as having done such and such.

This ties up with what I've been saying all along: Oz is a very RACIST country. Oz schools, medical schools, are EXTREMELY RACIST against all those that are non Anglo-Saxons. I said, in the OSCE exam in a medical school there, most years I was there, 100% Oriental students were made to fail, while nobody else was. The correlation between being Orientals and failing the OSCE was 100%, while that of being Anglo-Saxons was 0%.

Urm.... Ok, just to clarify, the Australian legal system is based on the English system - you know, the same legal system the American system was based on - as in innocent until proven guilty, prosecution must carry the burden of proof, verdict decided by jury, sentence determined by judge.

I can tell you that our university has a large proportion of students who are not "Anglos" in the law faculty. How you plan to justify these little generalisations is beyond me.

The papers are calling Dr Patel Indian-born American-trained - I really think that they are pointing out that he is an overseas trained doctor whose record was not checked appropriately, because we do rely on OSDs quite heavily and there has been a lot of controversy over how their suitability to practice in Australia is determined.

And while I really shouldn't reply to that drivel about Asian students ALL failing the OSCE but ALL Australians passing, I'd like to know how I still have all bar one of the Asian classmates I started with still in my year despite the fact that the OSCE is a barrier, and if they had failed they would have had to repeat everytime they failed? And why some of the Anglo students I started with are not still in my cohort due to OSCE/exam failure?

:sigh: I know, I know, don't feed the trolls! I just couldn't help it. What scares me is that others who have no experience of Australia may read these ravings and think they are a true representation.

 

[pitman]

:sigh: I know, I know, don't feed the trolls! I just couldn't help it. What scares me is that others who have no experience of Australia may read these ravings and think they are a true representation.

I feel the same way -- potential visitors need to know this guy's shown to be a paranoid, is obsessed, and is quite possibly a sociopath. Or a mere troll.

-pitman

 

[USMedStudent]

Urm.... Ok, just to clarify, the Australian legal system is based on the English system - you know, the same legal system the American system was based on - as in innocent until proven guilty, prosecution must carry the burden of proof, verdict decided by jury, sentence determined by judge.
I can tell you that our university has a large proportion of students who are not "Anglos" in the law faculty. How you plan to justify these little generalisations is beyond me.
The papers are calling Dr Patel Indian-born American-trained - I really think that they are pointing out that he is an overseas trained doctor whose record was not checked appropriately, because we do rely on OSDs quite heavily and there has been a lot of controversy over how their suitability to practice in Australia is determined.
And while I really shouldn't reply to that drivel about Asian students ALL failing the OSCE but ALL Australians passing, I'd like to know how I still have all bar one of the Asian classmates I started with still in my year despite the fact that the OSCE is a barrier, and if they had failed they would have had to repeat everytime they failed? And why some of the Anglo students I started with are not still in my cohort due to OSCE/exam failure?
:sigh: I know, I know, don't feed the trolls! I just couldn't help it. What scares me is that others who have no experience of Australia may read these ravings and think they are a true representation.

-------------------------

Finally there appears someone who is not so intellectually bankrupt like many - or most - others on this board that are so deprived that they can't put up even a single argument but having to resort to labeling the messenger. Even in their profound ignorance they're not even original. That same tactics was done in Athens 2404 years ago - as if they even knew where Athens is and what, whom, I am referring to.

No legal systems are perfect, but here in the US, the law specifically requires all news sources to put "alleged" before any descriptions of any actions that the defendants are believed to have done. Individuals can believe or say whatever they want in private, but all public talks must conform strictly to many laws that are meant to protect the legal rights of defendants.

Many Australian news sources fall far off this criterion. In fact, their entire system falls far off from protecting the legal rights of this particular Dr. Jayant Patel who has not even been indicted because the only professional team of medical experts that has been involved in the case has practically exonerated him by determining that his errors, if any, were within acceptable range of medical practice. Most Australian news sources however have jumped to conclusion and labeled him as Dr. Death, but much ethically deplorable than that, unnecessarily put "Indian-born" before their conclusive label of this man despite the fact that he has not lived in India for at least 30 years or 60% of his entire life.

This, to me, is just another example of how racially discriminating the Australian society is. In earlier posts, I never meant to be inclusive of all of its medical schools at all times, but I said at least in my experience while I was there, in a few years ALL students that were made to fail a particular subjective medical exam at a certain medical school were Oriental students, while NOBODY of any other ethnics or races was. In other words, albeit not an inclusive and not an all-time truth, at least in those years, the Australian medical school system commited the deplorable act of causing severe damages to a number of Oriental medical students while passing ALL non-Oriental students some of whom might not be qualified to become doctors.

Other examples of racial discrimination at the Australia's national level are rampant. Those are beyond the scope of this board, so I would restrict my arguments only on medically related issues, specifically on what I know first-hand about the medical school system there. Over the years, that system has not changed its practice of racially selecting students that may or may not enter medical schools, students that may or may not become doctors. That would not concern me as long as those students are not Americans, but along that line the system has caused severe damages to many non-Anglo Saxons American students many of whom are receiving financial aid from the US Department of Education, which is supported by taxpayers that I am one of.

This, combined with the issue of substandard medical education that US students are acquiring from attending those racially discriminating medical schools, makes Australian medical schools very unfit to train doctors for the United States of America. Someday, in a year or two, I'll raise this issue to the US Congress to stop lending money (Title IV) to US students that want to attend any Australian medical schools. Those that want to attend them will always be welcome to do so at their own costs, own risks, as long as they are not supported by faithful taxpayers like me.

 

[banana k]

-------------------------
This, combined with the issue of substandard medical education that US students are acquiring from attending those racially discriminating medical schools, makes Australian medical schools very unfit to train doctors for the United States of America. Someday, in a year or two, I'll raise this issue to the US Congress to stop lending money (Title IV) to US students that want to attend any Australian medical schools. Those that want to attend them will always be welcome to do so at their own costs, own risks, as long as they are not supported by faithful taxpayers like me.

great plan! then all those americans who had actually planned on attending med school here for the purpose of *emigration* can be completely screwed!

i think we've exhausted the topic of aus med schools being either appropriate or inappropriate for US training, and we've heard both sides of the story ad nauseum. best of luck bringing it up in washington, where they frankly have more important things to worry about.

as far as jayant patel goes, of course it's been blown out of proportion, but that's what the media does in any country, including the US. of course there are racist idiots in OZ, but they're around in any country, including the US. and of course there are screwup physicians of any nationality--just like in the US.

you're absolutely right--generalisations and stereotypes based on single experiences (or in patel's case, a single individual) are bad. would you please stop making them too?

 

[pitman]

Finally there appears someone who is not so intellectually bankrupt like many - or most - others on this board that are so deprived that they can't put up even a single argument but having to resort to labeling the messenger.

The argumentation might be a little too subtle for you to appreciate.

Arguing with you is/has been tried, repeatedly, to no avail, as you still make things up and spread wild delusions. One needs only look earlier in this thread, like, i dunno, when you claimed "only 10" Flinders grads ever got US residencies!

So recourse #2: remind visitors they can look up ANY of your previous rants to see how you've demonstrated 0 cred, or sincerity. Such an implicit argument trumps your loony-bins hogwash any day.

-pitman

 

[driedcaribou]

I said, in the OSCE exam in a medical school there, most years I was there, 100% Oriental students were made to fail, while nobody else was. The correlation between being Orientals and failing the OSCE was 100%, while that of being Anglo-Saxons was 0%.

You are truly off your rocker.

I can tell everyone right now that this is false, misleading and inflammatory information.

 

[craig_rt]

The reason why terms like "overseas trained" amd "Indian born" are used so much is because he lied in his application about the current status of his US medical license. The terms are used so as to be clear that the system failed as much as he did. There are govt inquiries going on into the system and how it could have allowed him to practice, not because he is "Indian born", but because no-one checked his qualifications.

In many medicine courses the white anglos are in the minority. There is a push from many communities and the govt itself to get more overseas trained doctors here. Hardly racist attitudes.

Do you doubt that if the same outcomes occurred from a surgeon trained in the US/UK/anywhere that the outcry would not be the same? That we wouldn't be looking at how someone so incompetent could have been allowed to work in the hospitals? That there wouldn't be an emphasis on the fact that they are overseas doctors that somehow slipped through the accreditation process?

Craig

 

[craig_rt]

Just a quick follow-up to this, on a recent edition of Australian Story they covered the nurse who brought attention to a lot of the problems at Bundaberg Hospital with regards to Dr. Patel. Nowhere at all in the 30 minute program does it mention that he was Indian born. Have a look at the transcript here.

Craig

 

[NoodleGirlsie]

-------------------------

Finally there appears someone who is not so intellectually bankrupt like many - or most - others on this board...

...Most Australian news sources however have jumped to conclusion and labeled him as Dr. Death...

...Over the years, that system has not changed its practice of racially selecting students that may or may not enter medical schools, students that may or may not become doctors...

...faithful taxpayers like me...

Ok, I know I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this argument, but I just can't resist...

I haven't personally read any of the news stories or watched any media hype, but I have read the transcripts for the 'Bundaberg Hospital Commission of Inquiry' (BHCI). I have also read all of the witness statements supplied to that commission. I have also looked at each piece of evidence put before the commission, and just so you know, there are MANY.

So you could say I've invested a fair few hours of genuine research. That way I'm not sprouting off in ignorance, so to speak... not like some. Feel free to have a look for yourself. It's all available for public perusal at www.bhci.qld.gov.au - In this country we believe in a full disclosure of facts to the public... we don't like to hush everything up.

Anyway, here's a couple of things I've learned:

1. Australian news sources did not label him Dr Death. One of the Anaesthetists working with Dr Patel gave him that nickname early in 2003.

2. Within a few months of Dr Patel's appointment to BBH ICU, the local coroner was alarmed at the number of cases where there was a discrepancy between the cause of death listed by Dr Patel, and the Autopsy finding.

3. The evidence supplied to the Commission is not the testimony of ONE nurse and ONE doctor as you suggest. Get your facts straight.

4. You're right: The BBH Administration is DEFINITELY to blame for continuing to allow Dr Patel to practice, even when serious complaints were being made about him on a DAILY basis to the most senior members of the Hospital Administration Staff. (I'm absolutely amazed - read the transcripts people!)

So having got that little whinge off my chest, I have another couple of things I'd like to say:

If you are a faithful Tax Payer, then how old does that make you? Why are you still on a STUDENT website seeking validation for your 'original' ideas? (Which by the way are almost word for word from http://www.geocities.com/patel_event/ although I'm not implying anything...)

Also, how long exactly has it been since you experienced the evils of racism in Australian MedSchool Acceptance Criteria? For the record, acceptance to Australian Universities is based on the UAI (Universities Admission Index) that you earn at Highschool, along with your written application... submitted online. I should know, I've just been through this process. No problem.

And finally... I really object to your attitude that US is filled with rich minds, and the rest of the world is inhabited by intelectually bankrupt individuals. If there's one thing I love about Aussies, it's that they don't bignote themselves.

 

[Retinamark]

USMedStudent I don't know why you are so bitter. Most of what you say about Australian medical schools is total rubbish. I don't know where you get the idea that admission criteria are racist - in Melbourne, anglo-saxon medical students are in a minority. Many classes are >50% Asian. Nor is there any racism in exams or specialty entrance exams. Many highly competetive sub-specialties have more Asians & overseas born physicians than Anglo-saxons.

I don't know what your page long rants about Dr Patel have to do with the topic of Australian medical schools anyway. Sure the media over-react, but they do that in every country. That's got nothing to do with Australian medical schools.

You need to calm down buddy & not be so unreasonably vicious. Seems to me you might have a personality disorder & not have the insight to realise it. Get some help buddy.

English is my third language. Came to the US in my late teens. Took the GED 30 days after my arrival, SAT 3 months later. Attended an Ivy League university, graduated with 2 degrees in 4.5 years, including an uncountable year at la Sorbonne, France. Worked as a computer programmer for 1.5 years, then opened my own software company. Sold it 6 months after IPO, went to graduate school in biomedical sciences. Almost finished my Ph.D. after 4.5 years, scored 34-T on MCAT (10 12 12), went to a horrible med school in Australia (biggest mistake of my life). Took the Steps on my own studying, scored 256 on Step 1 on second attempt (first was indeterminate), 219 on Step 2. Finished my Ph.D. in 15 months at my old grad school after coming back. Got a residency at one of the finest med schools in the North East. Published 5 major papers, 1 is pending. Will be Chief Resident in July. Will open my own $20M multi-specialty med center next year, then likely a 200-seat auditorium and a transitional processing center to teach international med students who want to do rotations and study for their Steps in the US. Currently writing a 5,000-page electronic hyperlinked book on EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW TO BEAT STEP 1, 2, 3 USMLEs. Goal: raise up the passing scores on all USMLE exams by 10%.

These seem like delusions to me. Like to offer any evidence?
Which medical school did you go to again?

 

[zhaf86]

find another bridge to dwell under troll.

-------------------------

Finally there appears someone who is not so intellectually bankrupt like many - or most - others on this board that are so deprived that they can't put up even a single argument but having to resort to labeling the messenger. Even in their profound ignorance they're not even original. That same tactics was done in Athens 2404 years ago - as if they even knew where Athens is and what, whom, I am referring to.

No legal systems are perfect, but here in the US, the law specifically requires all news sources to put "alleged" before any descriptions of any actions that the defendants are believed to have done. Individuals can believe or say whatever they want in private, but all public talks must conform strictly to many laws that are meant to protect the legal rights of defendants.

Many Australian news sources fall far off this criterion. In fact, their entire system falls far off from protecting the legal rights of this particular Dr. Jayant Patel who has not even been indicted because the only professional team of medical experts that has been involved in the case has practically exonerated him by determining that his errors, if any, were within acceptable range of medical practice. Most Australian news sources however have jumped to conclusion and labeled him as Dr. Death, but much ethically deplorable than that, unnecessarily put "Indian-born" before their conclusive label of this man despite the fact that he has not lived in India for at least 30 years or 60% of his entire life.

This, to me, is just another example of how racially discriminating the Australian society is. In earlier posts, I never meant to be inclusive of all of its medical schools at all times, but I said at least in my experience while I was there, in a few years ALL students that were made to fail a particular subjective medical exam at a certain medical school were Oriental students, while NOBODY of any other ethnics or races was. In other words, albeit not an inclusive and not an all-time truth, at least in those years, the Australian medical school system commited the deplorable act of causing severe damages to a number of Oriental medical students while passing ALL non-Oriental students some of whom might not be qualified to become doctors.

Other examples of racial discrimination at the Australia's national level are rampant. Those are beyond the scope of this board, so I would restrict my arguments only on medically related issues, specifically on what I know first-hand about the medical school system there. Over the years, that system has not changed its practice of racially selecting students that may or may not enter medical schools, students that may or may not become doctors. That would not concern me as long as those students are not Americans, but along that line the system has caused severe damages to many non-Anglo Saxons American students many of whom are receiving financial aid from the US Department of Education, which is supported by taxpayers that I am one of.

This, combined with the issue of substandard medical education that US students are acquiring from attending those racially discriminating medical schools, makes Australian medical schools very unfit to train doctors for the United States of America. Someday, in a year or two, I'll raise this issue to the US Congress to stop lending money (Title IV) to US students that want to attend any Australian medical schools. Those that want to attend them will always be welcome to do so at their own costs, own risks, as long as they are not supported by faithful taxpayers like me.