Authoritative SDN Pain Med Salary Survey

[drusso]

Considering only money you make from direct doctoring (not ASC distributions, not side gigs, not KOL work, not gambling, not day trading, not real estate, etc) how much money do you take home every year AFTER taxes, payroll deductions...ie money available for living expenses, vacations, girlfriends, boats, pasture pets, hobbies, etc.

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[Agast]

I’m curious for the ballers with lots of fun toys, if you’re the breadwinner does your partner have a large discretionary spending account as well? Like birkens and medspa maintenance. I feel like some of my partners’ wives spend a ton of their money, except for the ones who married their med school classmates.

 

[MitchLevi]

I'm married to the woman I started dating while on active duty in the USMC, prior to my even going to college. We don't spend money.

I have no problem with her buying whatever she wants, but she doesn't like "stuff." Certainly got lucky with her of course.

There are people I know that make a living to support the spending habits of their spouse. It makes me sad.

 

[Ducttape]

drusso, you forgot the 300-350k category. not that it makes that much of a difference, but...

 

[GoBeers]

Wow, some people taking home 800k after taxes on just pro fees? Incredible

 

[SSdoc33]

the "after taxes" question may be confusing.

if you make 500K, you are taking home 350 after taxes. i THINK the survey question means: what is your salary/take home pay before uncle sam gets you. that is usually how we talk about how much money we make.

 

[RoloTomassi]

No ASC is confusing. If a pain doc goes from in-office to opening a solo ASC, their pro fees are going to drop but that's not representative of their income.

 

[Agast]

No ASC is confusing. If a pain doc goes from in-office to opening a solo ASC, their pro fees are going to drop but that's not representative of their income.

Half my take home pay is my ASC shares. It gets taxed like income but I guess it doesn’t count here.

 

[drusso]

the "after taxes" question may be confusing.

if you make 500K, you are taking home 350 after taxes. i THINK the survey question means: what is your salary/take home pay before uncle sam gets you. that is usually how we talk about how much money we make.

Can you spend what the government takes from you?

 

[drusso]

Half my take home pay is my ASC shares. It gets taxed like income but I guess it doesn’t count here.

Correct, but the ASC distribution is not "doctoring" per se. As the amount is generated by the effort of many. The point is to show what doctors get paid for doctoring.

 

[SSdoc33]

Correct, but the ASC distribution is not "doctoring" per se. As the amount is generated by the effort of many. The point is to show what doctors get paid for doctoring.

i see what you are trying to do, but now you are applying too many variables. local and federal tax rates, tax harbors, real estate, etc.

you should be asking what we make for doctoring BEFORE taxes, if you want it to be authoritative

is there an ulterior motive?

 

[GoBeers]

would be nice to see a separate poll including everyone's distributions from ASC .

 

[Ducttape]

what is so authoritative about this poll?

is anyone going to be able to use it to tell their boss to pay them more?

 

[RoloTomassi]

Half my take home pay is my ASC shares. It gets taxed like income but I guess it doesn’t count here.

Exactly my point, need to include ASC to make sense in some cases. I'd fall into in the <150 category but that's not accurate

 

[drusso]

Exactly my point, need to include ASC to make sense in some cases. I'd fall into in the <150 category but that's not accurate

But that is what your doctoring is worth unless you Juice some Vig on the SOS via ASC.

 

[drusso]

i see what you are trying to do, but now you are applying too many variables. local and federal tax rates, tax harbors, real estate, etc.

you should be asking what we make for doctoring BEFORE taxes, if you want it to be authoritative

is there an ulterior motive?

People choose to live in HCOL areas. You can't spend what you don't keep. I could pay you $1,000,000 to be a doctor, take $999,999 in taxes, and leave you with a dollar to your name.

Stop being a "right fighter" and just answer the question, "What does your W-2 "doctoring" activity bring in the door to eat, spend, invest, or squander after the government takes its piece of the action?

 

[RoloTomassi]

But that is what your doctoring is worth unless you Juice some Vig on the SOS via ASC.

My pro fee revenue is what you'd expect doing ~12k RVUs in a facility but it's used to pay both office and ASC staff, overhead, construction/start-up loans, etc. So let's say take home is 0, a break-even--that's not really representative of 12k RVUs of doctoring

 

[clubdeac]

Damn didn’t realize this was AFTER taxes. Gotta change my answer. Also how are guys making 900k+ AFTER taxes?!? Now I really feel like an underachieving schmuck

 

[drusso]

My pro fee revenue is what you'd expect doing ~12k RVUs in a facility but it's used to pay both office and ASC staff, overhead, construction/start-up loans, etc. So let's say take home is 0, a break-even--that's not really representative of 12k RVUs of doctoring

It might not be representative, but it's what you can feed your family with. I tried to feed my daughter an RVU once. It was not pretty.

 

[Agast]

Damn didn’t realize this was AFTER taxes. Gotta change my answer. Also how are guys making 900k+ AFTER taxes?!? Now I really feel like an underachieving schmuck

No one here would lie, no one!

 

[Baron Samedi]

Where my fellow poverty docs at????

 

[mdo1738]

Answered the poll before I read the additional post about it being after taxes. I’m going to pay about $250k in taxes I think and the worthless government won’t even give me my own lane at the DMV…or even actually provide me any service there or any other government facility.

 

[oreosandsake]

Just to be clear wouldn’t before taxes make more sense…

 

[drusso]

Just to be clear wouldn’t before taxes make more sense…

Depends. Can you spend what you make before taxes?

 

[oreosandsake]

Depends. Can you spend what you make before taxes?

As a comparison between docs

 

[lobelsteve]

It's not a great look for docs to be displaying/boasting about their salaries.


Move to private?

 

[SSdoc33]

Just to be clear wouldn’t before taxes make more sense…

of course. that is how everyone discusses how much they make. i think this is just another way that drusso can take backhanded shots at taxes, gvt, hospitals, rvus, etc.

 

[mdo1738]

It's not a great look for docs to be displaying/boasting about their salaries.


Move to private?

Lack of salary information leads to docs getting screwed and hospitals pocketing more. Should be kept public.

 

[cowboydoc]

Lack of salary information leads to docs getting screwed and hospitals pocketing more. Should be kept public.

This!

Posting pics of pointy shoes and fancy cars is potentially more distasteful and far less useful.

Posting before and after tax income would serve a decent purpose, otherwise it’s an irregular way of asking the question. I’d venture a guess the folks in PP hang on to a much larger % of their income than us RVU pellet collecting W2 schmucks.

 

[drusso]

It's not a great look for docs to be displaying/boasting about their salaries.


Move to private?

It's necessary and required in order to expose the graft. Let the sunlight in.

 

[BobBarker]

Lack of salary information leads to docs getting screwed and hospitals pocketing more. Should be kept public.

You don’t want that. It would sew discontent with your colleagues seeing what you make. The community wouldn’t understand either.

 

[RoloTomassi]

I like the transparency but it would be more helpful if there were separate polls for hospital employed, PP employed, PP owner/ASC shares. That way you can do apples to apples comparisons as well as across categories. Not sure we have enough n for meaningful data though.

 

[drusso]

I like the transparency but it would be more helpful if there were separate polls for hospital employed, PP employed, PP owner/ASC shares. That way you can do apples to apples comparisons as well as across categories. Not sure we have enough n for meaningful data though.

But the doctoring activity is all the same. The only thing different is the juice and vig on the SOS. Why should your 99214 be different than mine?

It's not like you're transported to a different universe when you walk outside of the HOPD and into a private practice.

 

[SSdoc33]

But the doctoring activity is all the same. The only thing different is the juice and vig on the SOS. Why should your 99214 be different than mine?

It's not like you're transported to a different universe when you walk outside of the HOPD and into a private practice.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. One track mind

 

[RoloTomassi]

But the doctoring activity is all the same. The only thing different is the juice and vig on the SOS. Why should your 99214 be different than mine?

It's not like you're transported to a different universe when you walk outside of the HOPD and into a private practice.

I'm not talking about SOS differential. Just the utility of income polls. Everyone is looking to see how their job/offers stack up.

 

[SpineandWine]

this is clearly biased poll.
Look at MGMA data. If you take out side gigs, docs don’t make much from just doctoring
Not sure how anyone is bringing more than 600k
Doctoring only (without shares, etc)

 

[au bon pain]

Good premise behind this poll, but too many qualifiers to really understand the data. Would be clearer if this was just doctoring only, pre-tax. My guess is that's how several people responded, but we won't really know.

And seems more appropriate for the private forum where a better discussion could also be had.

 

[drusso]

Good premise behind this poll, but too many qualifiers to really understand the data. Would be clearer if this was just doctoring only, pre-tax. My guess is that's how several people responded, but we won't really know.

And seems more appropriate for the private forum where a better discussion could also be had.

The private forum is for discussing things you don't want people to know. You WANT people to know what market is for getting paid.

 

[au bon pain]

The private forum is for discussing things you don't want people to know. You WANT people to know what market is for getting paid.

We both want the same thing. But the participants and potential audience matters. I WANT pain fellows/docs (who can all join the private forum) to be able to comfortably share and discuss knowing that the info will be provided by, and received by, other pain docs. Widening the circle on this subject beyond the target audience on these forums doesn't improve, but rather detracts from, the outcome of the exercise. Just one dude's opinion anyway.

 

[oreosandsake]

Google doc in private?

More details. Our own mgma but better??

 

[oreosandsake]

Can anyone tell me if the only difference between anesthesia pain and non anesthesia besides the primary specialty? What if you did an anesthesia based fellowship….

 

[au bon pain]

Google doc in private?

More details. Our own mgma but better??

That’s a great idea.
I’m not great with making spreadsheets, but if someone created this in a way where entries are anonymous you could get pretty granular data on overall salary, compensation structure, benefits, vacation time, practice setting, med prescribing expectations, midlevel supervision requirements, average number of clinic pts and procedures/ week etc… is many of the key variables considered when trying to understand compensation and making apples to apples comparisons.

 

[au bon pain]

Can anyone tell me if the only difference between anesthesia pain and non anesthesia besides the primary specialty? What if you did an anesthesia based fellowship….

As far as I can tell, yes. Seems to be a vestige from days past.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Good premise behind this poll, but too many qualifiers to really understand the data. Would be clearer if this was just doctoring only, pre-tax. My guess is that's how several people responded, but we won't really know.

And seems more appropriate for the private forum where a better discussion could also be had.

How do I become a member of the private forum again?

 

[lobelsteve]

How do I become a member of the private forum again?

Thread 'How to Apply for Access to the Physicians Only Pain Forum'
How to Apply for Access to the Physicians Only Pain Forum

 

[hyperalgesia]

Are there forums where docs in other specialties are publicly bragging about their salary and being a "baller" or is that unique to Pain?

I don't know how docs can expect their specialty to be respected by the general public when they do this.

 

[Agast]

I don’t think drusso posted this to generate bragging, I think it’s meant to be crowdsourcing data

ER and anesthesiology talk salaries. I also suspect the other specialties are busy having actual lives and don’t shoot the sh1t on SDN as much….

 

[Ducttape]

i would say that it is probably not a great look to potential patients who might get on this forum and see how much we get make.

im fairly certain that most patients would expect pain docs getting paid the lower 1/2 of the salary range, but would get pretty upset about those getting paid the upper 1/3 after they get hit with a no show fee, or find out that their copay for the injection is hundreds of dollars...

 

[MitchLevi]

Do those pts not understand the plight of high octane gasoline? That 87 is for low people. High octane is expensive.

 

[so55b]

>1M after tax means some of you guys make more than 1.5M... I guess not many would achieve this in a hospital employed setting. It makes me feel like I need to open my own shop at some point.