Average age of surgeons in France: 55

[group_theory]

I found this while browsing the BBC News website (not sure if this post is in the right forum or not). Does anyone have any info on the working conditions (ie salary and benefits, hours, chances for advancement, etc) for surgeons in France?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3933585.stm

French surgeons plan London 'exile'

Hundreds of surgeons in private practice in France are threatening a brief "symbolic exile" in Britain next month in protest at static rates of pay and high insurance premiums.

The surgeons say that the fees paid for their services have remained the same for the last 15 years, while their insurance premiums have increased up to 10-fold.

They say the week-long visit to London, which is set for the end of August, is to alert the French government to the fact that, as a result, fewer medical students are choosing to specialise in surgery.

"Doing nothing today will be irresponsible. Being responsible today is to warn that the situation is serious: tomorrow we won't have any more surgeons," Dr Philippe Cuq told France-2 TV, speaking on behalf of an association of French surgeons.

London career

The television highlighted the case of Mr Eric Chemla, who has been working in London for two years, after practising in the cardiovascular unit in the Georges Pompidou hospital in Paris.

"Unfortunately nowadays, in France, hospital careers are not based on merit but on length of service or on who arrived first... or on other criteria which are not very clear," he said.

"I was asked to wait and to accept fixed-term contracts one after another."

Mr Chemla, who now works for one of London's biggest hospitals, St George's, jointly manages a kidney transplant unit as well as teaching and advising the government.

This is "a professional advancement much faster than in France", the TV reported.

"I would have been delighted to get a post in France, of course... But, if I were to ask the French authorities or a French institution to employ me now, they would not be able to pay me as much as here," Mr Chemla said.

"It's totally impossible. In France wages cannot be negotiated as they can in Britain."

Government concern

Many French surgeons are coming up to retirement in the next few years; their average age is 55. The French government has acknowledged the problem.

Health Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told the TV channel that young doctors were avoiding training as surgeons.

"This trend must be stopped," he said. He pledged a "week of discussion... in that direction: saving surgery."

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[Celiac Plexus]

Interesting average age.... The much more compelling observation to me is that if fewer people are going into surgery in France, and some surgeons are even leaving the country, who is going to be around in 10 or 15 years to operate?

This article is also interesting to me because I always thought that France was a socialized medicine country where you got paid less but could not get sued. I had no idea that France had a malpractice problem as well. It seemd strange though because why would the malpractice rate go up 1000% in 15 years? I've never heard that France has a litigation problem... I am curious to know the actual Euro amount of malpractice insurance that French surgeons have to pay. It could be that they get paid very little, and that malpractice there is only *relatively* high... Interesting.

 

[monkeyman]

Its a very simple concept. Supply of surgeons has been decreasing for several years now, and demand has remained constant or even increased. With average surgeon ages relatively high, it doesnt take a genius to realize that in a few years general surgeons are going to be in HUGE demand. And huge demand commands huge prices. That's just the way it works. So for a student starting a general surgery internship this year, you are primed for entrance into a great job market. Huge money, you make the rules because you can walk if you dont like the terms. General surgery is the best thing going right now, no question.

 

[group_theory]

monkeyman, what you say may well be true. However, supply/demand to work, you need market forces. France is a very socialized society - 35hr workweek ... 4 weeks vacation/year. The concept of "you can't fire me, I quit" is unheard of since the benefits from the state if you are "fired" is much greater than if you "quit" (and that's a big IF since it is quite hard to terminate someone). These may well complicated the supply/demand equation.

There are lots of factors at play. Increase demand with decreasing supply is certainly one of them. But also ... a lot of physicians and surgeons are paid by the state (or its representative health insurance fund) and thus their wages can not be negotiated (as alluded to by the article). France is also trying to recover from a recession and reign in their spending to comply w/ EU rules so the country doesn't necessarily have extra cash to give to surgeons.

So I doubt their salaries will significantly increase as demand goes up.

However, my understanding of this is only superficial and I'm hoping someone w/ experience or more knowledge would step in and provide more info.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Its a very simple concept. Supply of surgeons has been decreasing for several years now, and demand has remained constant or even increased. With average surgeon ages relatively high, it doesnt take a genius to realize that in a few years general surgeons are going to be in HUGE demand. And huge demand commands huge prices. That's just the way it works. So for a student starting a general surgery internship this year, you are primed for entrance into a great job market. Huge money, you make the rules because you can walk if you dont like the terms. General surgery is the best thing going right now, no question.

monkeyman,

did you read this thread? it's about france, not the u.s.

but about the u.s.....I have heard people repeatedly saying that there are less people going into gensurg and that in the future, there will be a big shortage of gensurgeons..... what data do you have to back this up? It seems like the number of people going into surgery is fairly constant each year, with a small increase each year. Even 4 years ago when there were around 50 unfilled slots during the match, they were all eventually filled. And even if they weren't, it's not like 50 or 60 fewer general surgeons is going to cause a big shortage...

What's more concerning in the u.s. for general surgeons is the decreasing reimbursements for procedures. General surgeons are going to have to work even harder in the future to maintain income levels. I'll bet that if you compared gsurg income to procedures performed today and 10 years ago, you would see that today's surgeons are paid less. I don't have data for this, but it seems like from the general surgeons that I know, they pretty much all say that they have to work longer and harder if they want to maintain their income levels.

My feeling is that if reimbursements continue to remain static, or only increase 1% per year, while the attendant costs of practicing like overhead and malpractice insurance continue to go up then in the future, general surgeons will all eventually be salaried, hospital employees. There will be a move toward negotiating directly with a hospital for a set compensation, and the hospital will take care of malpractice insurance and other costs by pooling these costs with other hospital departments. There may actually be a day when the surgery department is a money-loser for a hospital, instead of a money-maker. In that scenario, radiology, anesthesia, or path, or some other department will have to subsidize the surgery department in the same way that surgery departments have traditionally subsized many other fields.

 

[Mirror Form]

monkeyman,

did you read this thread? it's about france, not the u.s.

but about the u.s.....I have heard people repeatedly saying that there are less people going into gensurg and that in the future, there will be a big shortage of gensurgeons..... what data do you have to back this up? It seems like the number of people going into surgery is fairly constant each year, with a small increase each year. Even 4 years ago when there were around 50 unfilled slots during the match, they were all eventually filled. And even if they weren't, it's not like 50 or 60 fewer general surgeons is going to cause a big shortage...

I'm also skeptical about GS ever having a great job market. It might get better, but it'll never be great. That's b/c many people go into GS with the intent of doing a fellowship. However, if GS ever got to be too good of a job market, people just wouldn't do fellowships and the number of GS would quickly increase. Same goes for internal medicine. If the job market for hosptalists ever got to be that great, people would just stay in IM instead of doing cards and GI fellowships and the number of hospitalists would quickly increase.