Average hours for M3 and M4 students

[RonaldColeman]

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OB: 4:30am-5pm 6 days/week.
Peds: 8:00-3:00 M-R (lecture 8-12 on Fridays), no weekends
IM: 7:00-2:00 6 days/week (lecture from 2-4 M,W,R)
Psych: 7-12 M-F (Lecture from 3-5 x2 days/week)
Family: 9am-12pm 2pm-4:30pm T-F; Monday lecture from 9-1.
Surgery: 7am-4pm M-R, lectures on Fridays from 7am-12...would return to the hospital and be told to go home. Only worked on S/Su if on call, and I only had 1 call day on a weekend. (Yes, I know people are going to hate me for this!)

Main point: Hrs range widely. Except for OB, I had very good hours on all of my rotations. My school happens to place an emphasis on shelf exams, so we spend more time in lecture than usual...and our preceptors are told not to scut us and to let us out to study. Many of the residents at my school--at least 70%--also attended the school, so they know how important shelf exams/written exams are to our grades. At my school, we were also given some choice for location of rotations...and there was always that one site with easy hrs. I was not interested in surgery so I chose a site that was known to have easy hours. My friends interested in surgery chose sites that had your more typical 4am-7pm hrs. Luckily we had a lot of options at my school.

 

[Arsenic]

what school is this?

 

[VCMM414]

General Surgery rotation at a Level 1 Trauma Center, got stuck on a particularly malignant service where there are 30+ total patients, 2 med students, and 1 of each PGY year on the service. PGY5 generally doesn't handle patients on the floor.

I get to the hospital anytime from 3:30 to 4:30. Morning rounds begin at the latest 5:30. I get home from 6:30 to 8:00. Overnight call is q4; we are supposed to leave at noon on post-call days, but so far I've left any time from 2 to 4pm.

Frankly, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

 

[Blade28]

I get to the hospital anytime from 3:30 to 4:30. Morning rounds begin at the latest 5:30. I get home from 6:30 to 8:00. Overnight call is q4; we are supposed to leave at noon on post-call days, but so far I've left any time from 2 to 4pm.

Frankly, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

Ah, sounds like residency hours to me. 🙂

 

[62868]

Anyone on this thread know the hours at UNC or ECU for rotations?

 

[SLUser11]

I love leaving the hospital. I love being at home. I don't do extra reading on patients, I don't pour through their past records... I barely keep up with their recent records. I've been burnt out since the second week of third year. If I cared any less about making a good impression, I would take a leak in a patient's bedpan during morning rounds. Believe me, I don't spent one second more time in the hospital than is absolutely required.

Then, it sounds like you fall under category a: Inefficient .

They should maybe rename this thread "Average hours for crappy M3s and M4s"..........(oops now I'm really gonna get it 🙁 )

 

[fishtolive]

all i'll say is surgery.

95 hours one week and the residents laughed because the rules didn't "apply" to us...no matter how efficient you are, if the residents say "u don't go home until 8 pm every night" then u don't!

i think i once got close to that on OB also.

to hear someone say that NO hospital would do this is spoiled spoiled spoiled

i hate surgery and hate long hours but it damned sure builds character, look into it!

 

[sacrament]

Then, it sounds like you fall under category a: Inefficient

It sounds like you fall under category c: Coddled.

Have fun in residency.

 

[pharmer]

So far I have done 6 weeks of an ambulatory/geriatrics (rotation our school makes us do) and 3 weeks of family practice and have yet to put in more than 40 hours in a week 🙂

 

[Silverfix]

MS4 Sub-I's in surgery. Average of 110-120 hours a week, with no days off.

No restrictions for med student. Ha ha. Might as well find out if you've got the stamina now, right? 🙂


The "argument" in this thread is ******ed btw. Students in different schools work different hours. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp. 🙄

Let me see if I can recall my third year hours.

Medicine: hours were light. Generally out of there by three or four. Much earlier, when post call. But it was so boring it seamed like forever.

Surgery - I worked long hours, around 110 - more when on trauma. But I didn't really have to. I just stuck around so I could do procedures. I cut my hours down to about 80 though, as the shelf approached.

Psych - four or five hours a day and weekends off. That rotation was a joke.

OB/GYN - started around four, finished by noon.

Neuro - I did consults so it was around twelve hours a day

Peds - very light. maybe 60 hours a week. Never got woken up on call so it didn't really count.

 

[SLUser11]

It sounds like you fall under category c: Coddled.

Have fun in residency.

Not so much coddled as effective. Your comment "have fun in residency" suggests great wisdom and experience (oooooooh how I'll change my mind when I know the things that YOU know), which would make me fear residency if I wasn't sure of two things: 1. I know more than you do, and 2. You're a crybaby.

As an MSIV, I don't know resident hours, but I know student hours, and after doing surgery rotations in six different hospitals on multiple different services, within three different residency programs, I know difficult hours. But, even with every "80 hour work week doesn't apply to you" comment, you still don't have to work 100 hours, especially if you're just trying to skate by. The only people who even get close are those interested in a specialty gunning for a good LOR.

This doesn't mean that Sacrament didn't work that many hours....he probably did. If he hadn't layed down and cried, "Whaaaaaaa! Med school is so HARD! The attendings are MEAN! This is not FAIR!!" and instead took care of his work and then went home, then he wouldn't have an SDN cross to hang himself from. It would be DIFFERENT if he stated that he CHOSE to stay, but he makes it sound like he's forced. Only crybabies and wusses allow themselves to be at the mercy of their situation all the time. 🙁

I think I have our martyr figured out: thinks he's super-duper smart and experienced....prides himself on his wit....uses this forum to act like a tough guy (with threats of imposing self-fellatio and promises of arm-wrestling victory)....has a small group of followers who buy into his online
personality....not too different from our friend TypeB MD, or at least not any better. Anyway, I'm not impressed.

 

[sacrament]

This doesn't mean that Sacrament didn't work that many hours....he probably did. If he hadn't layed down and cried, "Whaaaaaaa! Med school is so HARD! The attendings are MEAN! This is not FAIR!!"

I don't think I've ever, in any context, in any conceivable formulation of words, said that med school is hard. I've often argued exactly the opposite. You've got a giant chip on your shoulder and, for the life of me, I have no idea why. The only thing I've done in this thread is report truth regarding the hours I spent in the hospital; there is hardly anything that resembles complaining about hours. Maybe if you squint, when I said I was sleep-derived and my surgery rotation was "rough." That's about it. Far more obvious are my statements that my hours haven't really been that big a deal. So what the f--k is your problem with that, exactly? I'm guessing you're a repeat troll or second account that I pissed off in one of your other incarnations.

and instead took care of his work and then went home, then he wouldn't have an SDN cross to hang himself from. It would be DIFFERENT if he stated that he CHOSE to stay, but he makes it sound like he's forced. Only crybabies and wusses allow themselves to be at the mercy of their situation all the time. 🙁

I don't know what your f-ing problem is. I go to a school where you don't leave the hospital until your resident or attending says you can leave. If you took control of your situation here and walked out without permission, your attending would take control of your grade and fail you. I usually didn't have "work to do" on my surgery rotation... wtf "work" is there for a 3rd year medical student to do at 5 PM on the general surgery ward? I stayed because I would say "Well, is there anything else I can help with or should I head home?" and the chief resident would say "No, stick around, we're going to run the list again at 7." This was my experience. And because I had this experience, and because I didn't tell my primary evaluator to blow it out her ass, I'm a *****? No, I'm trying to graduate medical school. Get over yourself f--kwad.

uses this forum to act like a tough guy

This is hilarious. An invention like my supposed complaining. And exactly how much time are you spending reading my posts? Since you're apparently only like a part-time med student, or something, I guess you've got time to burn.

 

[Silverfix]

But, even with every "80 hour work week doesn't apply to you" comment, you still don't have to work 100 hours, especially if you're just trying to skate by. The only people who even get close are those interested in a specialty gunning for a good LOR.

This is true, of fourth year. But in third year at my school pretty much everyone was "gunning" for their honors grade, so surgery hours over 100 were the norm, even for people who had no interest in going into the field. Sure, you didn't "have to" do it, but those who didn't tended not to do well on the course regardless of their shelf grade. Then again my school is notoriously gunnerish.

 

[Silverfix]

By the way, I don't really understand what there is to argue over in this thread. Sacrament, it seems that people are misunderstanding your intention. Perhaps if you used more smileys your text would be clearer. 😉

 

[sacrament]

By the way, I don't really understand what there is to argue over in this thread. Sacrament, it seems that people are misunderstanding your intention. Perhaps if you used more smileys your text would be clearer. 😉

If I'd had any idea this would turn so controversial, I never would have posted. It's crazy.
"F--KING GUNNER!"
"No, he's no gunner, he's just a total bullsh1tter!"
"You're both wrong, he's just a pansy."

Good lord... I mean, can't I be all three?!

 

[Silverfix]

If I'd had any idea this would turn so controversial, I never would have posted. It's crazy.
"F--KING GUNNER!"
"No, he's no gunner, he's just a total bullsh1tter!"
"You're both wrong, he's just a pansy."

Good lord... I mean, can't I be all three?!

I still blame your lack of smilies. They're just to the right of the text screen. Try using them. I think you'll find you'll be less misunderstood. 🙂

 

[SLUser11]

You're right, Sacrament...I am picking on you a little....I'll back off. I think what sparked my annoyance was not your posted hours (seems harmless), but your supposed threat to "Livewires" from earlier in the thread....I felt compelled to tease you for the "eat your own d*ck" line. You have a right to be upset.
You're not as bad as TypeB MD. I take it back.

 

[vietcongs]

there's nothing illegal about a med student doing more than 80 hours/week in surgery or any other rotation.

acgme rules do not apply to med students since you don't actually have any real patient care responsibilities.

ACGME rules don't really apply to anyone..shoot, I know many a program that does not abide by the rules and the residents work 120+ hrs and don't report because they don't want their program to get dinged, or they want to get in extra cases, etc.

My advice for all the whining MS3 and MS4 is....SUCK IT UP!!

I'm an OB/GYN intern and I work twice as much as any of the med students, and I still hear them whining "I was stuck in a GYN case til 9:30pm", "I can't get here at 4:30a because I have to study at night and get 8 hours of sleep". That's BULLSH*T! If you didn't go to medical school to work your arse off and learn, then drop out right now because we don't need softies and whiners in medicine.

Another piece of advice: Don't ever complain about your medi student hours to the intern, we have no sympathy and it will get you low ratings come eval time. Been there, done that.

 

[sacrament]

I felt compelled to tease you for the "eat your own d*ck" line.

Before you leap on that, you should recognize that it isn't something I posted publically, but in a private PM to him that he felt the need to subsequently post on the board, and which was in response to a PM he originally sent me telling me I was a "little bitch." I guess I fell for the bait.

 

[automaton]

yeah i hate *******es that "need" 8 hrs of sleep every night. are they still in kindergarten? people who whine are *****s. first of all, no one wants to hear anyone whine. second, whiners sound like giant vaginas. third, no one cares.

i go to the hospital and i hear students bitch about how little they learned last month, how much scut they had with little teaching and sparse opportunity to learn. they blame one service for their own incompetence. every time i hear stuff like that i just want to tell them to shut the hell up because the rest of us are putting in the same hours, doing the same amount of scut, and yet are not total *******es in the next rotation. i mean if you seem like you're not learning, take charge of your education. don't whine to a bunch of people who don't care.

 

[Silverfix]

yeah i hate *******es that "need" 8 hrs of sleep every night. are they still in kindergarten? people who whine are *****s. first of all, no one wants to hear anyone whine. second, whiners sound like giant vaginas. third, no one cares.

i go to the hospital and i hear students bitch about how little they learned last month, how much scut they had with little teaching and sparse opportunity to learn. they blame one service for their own incompetence. every time i hear stuff like that i just want to tell them to shut the hell up because the rest of us are putting in the same hours, doing the same amount of scut, and yet are not total *******es in the next rotation. i mean if you seem like you're not learning, take charge of your education. don't whine to a bunch of people who don't care.

I fully agree. Well said. 👍

 

[SLUser11]

ACGME rules don't really apply to anyone..shoot, I know many a program that does not abide by the rules and the residents work 120+ hrs and don't report because they don't want their program to get dinged, or they want to get in extra cases, etc.

My advice for all the whining MS3 and MS4 is....SUCK IT UP!!

I'm an OB/GYN intern and I work twice as much as any of the med students, and I still hear them whining "I was stuck in a GYN case til 9:30pm", "I can't get here at 4:30a because I have to study at night and get 8 hours of sleep". That's BULLSH*T! If you didn't go to medical school to work your arse off and learn, then drop out right now because we don't need softies and whiners in medicine.

Another piece of advice: Don't ever complain about your medi student hours to the intern, we have no sympathy and it will get you low ratings come eval time. Been there, done that.

Shocker....an OB/GYN resident with a sh*tty attitude.

 

[SLUser11]

Before you leap on that, you should recognize that it isn't something I posted publically, but in a private PM to him that he felt the need to subsequently post on the board, and which was in response to a PM he originally sent me telling me I was a "little bitch." I guess I fell for the bait.

You're right....that's why I'm backing off.

 

[loveumms]

Wow … you really feel strongly about this. I can understand where you are coming from but at the same time why so much animosity?

I just started third year and very quickly learned what a different world the hospital/clinical years are, compared with the first two years. I went from having pretty much the whole day to myself to having hardly any time to myself. I was expected to get up LONG before the sun rose and was told that the reason I was present in the OR was to be seen … not to see stuff (found myself staring at the wall for hours on end while being ignored).

Was I a bit shocked? YES. Did I complain some? YES because it wasn’t what I was expecting, especially since all the upper classman always talked about how third year was so much better then the pre-clinical years (without adding how much life changes). I asked my interns and residents how they managed the transition and I’m sure some of them saw my inquiries as complaints (an example of some of the questions I asked … how do you get home after a 13 or 14 hour day and then crack open a book, what was the best way you studied when you were beat tired, ect). I also posted on this site to see if there were others that were feeling the same way and what they were doing to get through it. Sometimes it feels reassuring to know you are not the only one who is feeling a certain way … after all isn’t that what this board is for? SUPPORT.

Then to find out that I have it really easy compared with other students … that was another shock. I can’t imagine working 100 + hours, having to still read each night for two hours all while maintaining my sanity. The thought of dropping out crossed my mind a few times at the beginning of this year but then somehow I started to adjust to the schedule of getting up really early, working hard all day and then coming home and reading for an hour.

Additionally, all of the interns and residents are really understanding at my school. They consistently remind us that we are PAYING for our education and if we are not gaining knowledge by being in a case or staying later then we should use that time and read. And I firmly believe this to be the truth. Medical students are NOT at the hospital to do scut work. We are there to learn … in fact we are paying for this. Maybe this mentality comes from our deans who remind us consistently about not doing scut work.

My resident and I were actually having a discussion about this today. We were talking about his intern year and how one of the deans at my school “scolded” all the interns for scutting the med students out. I told him that I didn’t mind doing scut work (such as running to the radiology department to pick up films while he relaxed in the lounge) as long as he would at least go over the films with me when I got back. To me that is fair trade. However, I don’t think it would be fair for me to run to the radiology department while he/she sat on their as* to come back up and not even be thanked (via him/her teaching me something). I’m sorry but I don’t pay $30,000 for that privilege. Furthermore, all of my residents have told me not to come in on the weekend because they don’t think there is any point.

I know that in two years I will be and intern, I will be working MUCH longer hours and sometimes I wonder how I will do it. I have a profound respect for all my interns/residents … and I truly admire how they work so hard and are able to stay pleasant and sympathize with us. I have made a promise to myself to do the same for my medical students!

 

[loveumms]

My advice for all the whining MS3 and MS4 is....SUCK IT UP!!

I'm an OB/GYN intern and I work twice as much as any of the med students, and I still hear them whining "I was stuck in a GYN case til 9:30pm", "I can't get here at 4:30a because I have to study at night and get 8 hours of sleep". That's BULLSH*T! If you didn't go to medical school to work your arse off and learn, then drop out right now because we don't need softies and whiners in medicine.


Also ... just wanted to respond to this. People can always tell you how hard medical school is but until you actually experience it first hand you cannot fully comprehend it. I find comfort knowing that I'm not the only one that is having a difficult time with the hours or workload.

I feel that if I am in a case until 9:30, as long as I learned/gained something from it ... then it was worthwhile but that still doesn't mean that it doesn't suck having to be in the hospital for 18 hours.

If everyone that complained about the hours and workload dropped out then there probably wouldn't be too many left standing. We are all human and complaining is a natural release for many.

Hopefully you will not take my responses as critisism and flog me ... I just wanted to post how I feel.

 

[automaton]

relax, surgery has the worst hours. other rotations should be easier.

 

[carrigallen]

If you didn't go to medical school to work your arse off and learn, then drop out right now because we don't need softies and whiners in medicine.

Right now I feel like I am often standing around cluelessly or else aimlessly performing tasks with little guidance or understanding of the reasons.
The time I spend following my intern on the floors is not really proportional to how much I learn. Usually it seems like the intern is too busy to answer a question, or else she doesn't know the answer, or else she is unavailable so I just wing it.

How do you learn in such an environment?

 

[DireWolf]

yeah i hate *******es that "need" 8 hrs of sleep every night. are they still in kindergarten? people who whine are *****s. first of all, no one wants to hear anyone whine. second, whiners sound like giant vaginas. third, no one cares.

i go to the hospital and i hear students bitch about how little they learned last month, how much scut they had with little teaching and sparse opportunity to learn. they blame one service for their own incompetence. every time i hear stuff like that i just want to tell them to shut the hell up because the rest of us are putting in the same hours, doing the same amount of scut, and yet are not total *******es in the next rotation. i mean if you seem like you're not learning, take charge of your education. don't whine to a bunch of people who don't care.

I eat tough-guy residents like you for breakfast.

 

[DOtobe]

Right now I feel like I am often standing around cluelessly or else aimlessly performing tasks with little guidance or understanding of the reasons.
The time I spend following my intern on the floors is not really proportional to how much I learn. Usually it seems like the intern is too busy to answer a question, or else she doesn't know the answer, or else she is unavailable so I just wing it.

How do you learn in such an environment?

This is exactly why I think med students should not be placed with interns, especially in the first few months of internship. We are practically still medical students ourselves, trying to get used to the hospital, dealing with a pager going off every 5 minutes and the panic attack that comes with each page (especially on call). We're busy because that is what internship is all about...having to do fifteen things all at once. Doing all the floor work during the day, doing new admissions, etc.

I was always frustrated with how little I learned from interns, until I became one...and realized I don't really have that much to teach (or at least that I feel comfortable teaching). I still say "I don't know" a ton of times. I think med students should be placed with more senior residents until we as interns get acclimated to the whole hospital setting.

Okay, I'll get off the soapbox now. 🙂

 

[automaton]

I eat tough-guy residents like you for breakfast.

i'm scared mr angry internet wolf / anal intruder. please don't hurt me

 

[simoin]

First of all, Sacrament is full of ****...flat out. You are not going to spend 14-18 hours per day, 6 days/week, with overnight call Q4 on ANY rotation...even the most grueling of surgery rotations. This would, at the least, have you at the hospital 94 hours per week. Forget it, this just doesn't happen at ANY hospital in the country. Bunch 'o bull-****. In my experience (and most other's), family, peds, medicine, and medicine subs tend to be more regular hours, about 45-60 hours per week. OB is always variable. Surgery can suck but you'll never be in the hospital more than 80 hours, and if you are by chance, just contact your local congressman/woman. IT'S ILLEGAL!!!

you are wrong. yes those were heafty estimates but especially for sub-Is I know plenty of people who broke the 80 hr mark. oh, and if you think the 80 hr mark is worth the paper its printed on you are also mistaken. it is up to the interns/residents to complain and lets just say its not as easy as you think to rat on your boss

4th year at an institution where 80 hrs means 80 hrs (most of the time)

 

[loveumms]

This is exactly why I think med students should not be placed with interns, especially in the first few months of internship. We are practically still medical students ourselves, trying to get used to the hospital, dealing with a pager going off every 5 minutes and the panic attack that comes with each page (especially on call). We're busy because that is what internship is all about...having to do fifteen things all at once. Doing all the floor work during the day, doing new admissions, etc.

I was always frustrated with how little I learned from interns, until I became one...and realized I don't really have that much to teach (or at least that I feel comfortable teaching). I still say "I don't know" a ton of times. I think med students should be placed with more senior residents until we as interns get acclimated to the whole hospital setting.

Okay, I'll get off the soapbox now. 🙂

I think this is a really good point. I have learned a lot from my interns but even they say its difficult to teach since they were just med students a few months ago. So far mine have taught me the essentials (how to write scripts, the computer system and how to survive)

At my school we are kinda paired with the whole team and the more senior residents "take us under their wings".

 

[Buck Strong]

My hours during MS3 were pretty bad, but I loved every minute of it, and MS4 hours are more than making up for it 😉 Overall, I averaged 110hrs during surgery, 80 during Medicine and OBgyn, 35 during psych, 60 during Peds, and 50 during Family.

Right now I feel like I am often standing around cluelessly or else aimlessly performing tasks with little guidance or understanding of the reasons.
The time I spend following my intern on the floors is not really proportional to how much I learn. Usually it seems like the intern is too busy to answer a question, or else she doesn't know the answer, or else she is unavailable so I just wing it.

How do you learn in such an environment?

I think this is a really good point. I have learned a lot from my interns but even they say its difficult to teach since they were just med students a few months ago.

I hate it when people whine about not being taught anything, as if the only way to learn is from lectures or discussions, or when a resident pulls you aside and teaches you or asks you a pimp question. Seriously, we've gotten to a point when we don't need to be force fed knowledge anymore. Learn something on your own. We have the priviledge of working in an environment full of patients who are great teaching tools. When your team has a list full of patients, grab all their charts and read through the H&P, figure out how and why the residents came up with the assessment and plan. If imaging is ordered on the patients, pull up the radiology reading and figure out what they saw...don't just copy down the radiologists impression without even looking at the scan. Read all the consults and get a feel for what the other services do, and if you might be interested in that specialty. Keep your eyes and ears open, and you'd be surprised what you'll learn. And please, don't ask stupid questions that can easily be looked up in 2 minutes in cecils or first aid. I feel like some people go into the clinical years with such a bad attitude that they force themselves to be miserable. If you think you did a rotation where you learned nothing, becuase all you did was retract, round and get scutted out, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

[loveumms]

My hours during MS3 were pretty bad, but I loved every minute of it, and MS4 hours are more than making up for it 😉 Overall, I averaged 110hrs during surgery, 80 during Medicine and OBgyn, 35 during psych, 60 during Peds, and 50 during Family.


I hate it when people whine about not being taught anything, as if the only way to learn is from lectures or discussions, or when a resident pulls you aside and teaches you or asks you a pimp question. Seriously, we've gotten to a point when we don't need to be force fed knowledge anymore. Learn something on your own. We have the priviledge of working in an environment full of patients who are great teaching tools. When your team has a list full of patients, grab all their charts and read through the H&P, figure out how and why the residents came up with the assessment and plan. If imaging is ordered on the patients, pull up the radiology reading and figure out what they saw...don't just copy down the radiologists impression without even looking at the scan. Read all the consults and get a feel for what the other services do, and if you might be interested in that specialty. Keep your eyes and ears open, and you'd be surprised what you'll learn. And please, don't ask stupid questions that can easily be looked up in 2 minutes in cecils or first aid. I feel like some people go into the clinical years with such a bad attitude that they force themselves to be miserable. If you think you did a rotation where you learned nothing, becuase all you did was retract, round and get scutted out, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I feel like you can never win on these forums.

I don't think anyone was whining about not learning anything ... just making the statement that med students should be paired up with more senior residents. My intern said on my first day that he was really sorry but that he couldn't teach me much b/c he was still learning and was really busy (and I'm sure he didn't want me to follow him around like a lost puppy). So, he put me with more senior residents who wanted to teach.

I agree that a lot of med school is self-learning but I don't think that I should pay 20K to learn everything on my own. I pay lots of money to be taught by my residents and attendings at the hospital. I can't even tell you how good it feels and how much I actually learn when a resident takes the time out of his/her day to teach me something. For instance, one of the residents taught me how to really read a CXR the other day ... I probably could have read about this in a radiology book for hours and learned 1/4 of what I learned in the 20 minutes he was teaching.

Also, I've was scolded by one of my attendings because I didn't ask enough questions. I always thought it was good policy to not ask a question that could be looked up later in a book. When my attending made the comment I told him I jotted down my questions and looked them up when I got home. If I couldn't find an adequate answer then I would ask the next day. He told me that I should ask the question when I have it b/c it makes him know I'm paying attention and it shows that I'm interested. Also, the resident who was standing in the room when this comment was made took me aside later and told me that it was better to ask a question, even if I could look it up later because the explanation given by the resident/attending would likely be much better then just looking it up. So, what do you do????? ask the question or look it up ... seems like you can never win.

And, dude I would LOVE to read the chart to try and figure out why such and such drug was prescribed or why a certain procedure was requested but more then 90% of the time I can't read what the hell is written much less try to extrapolate why it was written.

 

[Buck Strong]

My comments were directed more towards the other person than you...but you're right about the handwriting in charts, I got so much more out of my rotations that had computerized soap notes than old fashioned charts.

 

[chicamedica]

Sacrament may be telling the truth about the hours he put in, but my sense is that he hardly represents the norm. Why so many six day weeks? Eighteen hour workdays are a rare occurrence for any physician, never mind a student. Just because there's no law against working over 80 hours per week for a medical student doesn't make these kind of hours reasonable to expect from a student. I'm always a little suspicious when people report how many hours they're in the hospital. Why keep track of this kind of thing anyway? It's not like you're getting paid by the hour as student. It comes off a little like bragging. And longer hours does not necessarily equate with better medical student. This isn't an endurance contest.

Um, 6 day weeks? I didn't get a single day off in surgery. It depended on when the residents said you could, and well, they just forgot about me 🙁
I've heard a similar thing happening to some of my friends on this rotation and on medicine.

And yeah, i was going to say sacraments estimates are a bit on the low side. And my school actually makes some effort to limit med student hours (can't always happen in practice though).

 

[chicamedica]

Right now I feel like I am often standing around cluelessly or else aimlessly performing tasks with little guidance or understanding of the reasons.
The time I spend following my intern on the floors is not really proportional to how much I learn. Usually it seems like the intern is too busy to answer a question, or else she doesn't know the answer, or else she is unavailable so I just wing it.

How do you learn in such an environment?

Yeah i definitely know the feeling. Believe it or not, you ARE learning. You're learning what your role is, how the hospital works, what each person on the team is responsible for. That's a big start!

And you do pick up medicine by immersion too. Listening on rounds, working up your patients, etc. Next time, instead of asking your question to your intern, look it up on up-to-date or emedicine or something, and then you could share what you found with the team, if it's interesting. You'll learn a lot more medicine that way.

 

[carrigallen]

I hate it when people whine about not being taught anything, as if the only way to learn is from lectures or discussions, or when a resident pulls you aside and teaches you or asks you a pimp question. Seriously, we've gotten to a point when we don't need to be force fed knowledge anymore. Learn something on your own. We have the priviledge of working in an environment full of patients who are great teaching tools. When your team has a list full of patients, grab all their charts and read through the H&P, figure out how and why the residents came up with the assessment and plan. If imaging is ordered on the patients, pull up the radiology reading and figure out what they saw...don't just copy down the radiologists impression without even looking at the scan. Read all the consults and get a feel for what the other services do, and if you might be interested in that specialty. Keep your eyes and ears open, and you'd be surprised what you'll learn. QUOTE]

I'll admit I was whining a bit - thank you for the advice. I've been doing as you said - asking questions and seeking out the specialtists who did the readings. The radiologists, hematologists and pathologists are extremely friendly and love it when you have questions. I've reviewed blood smears, cxrs, mris, ct scans, tissure sections, ekgs, cmgs, bone scans, you name it.

 

[driedcaribou]

Both of you made the mistake that anyone other than you care. Take your argument private and put a lid on it.

Funny how you're telling other people to not engage in a public argument when you always jump at the chance to argue with BigFrank and derail a thread.


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Back on topic:

I don't see why there's the need to call someone a liar outright when they claim to work that many hours as a Med Student.... 1) I don't see how it's so hard to believe and 2) If you don't believe it, can't you be civil about it?