Average retirement age for EM doctors?

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Anyone know of this? I find it hard to think there are a lot of EM doctors in their 50's and up working graveyard shifts and such. Decent-Above average pay but is that not counteracted by the fact that these doctors will likely retire much earlier than other specialties therefore losing out in the long run?

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I doubt there are specific numbers out there available, but you're right that EM docs 50+ years old are either not working those shifts or are really hating them if they are. Retiring early isn't "losing out" because you'll only retire when you've saved enough money to live the standard of living you want for the rest of your life. If you don't save well and then you hit 50 and realize you don't like all the work you're doing but you can't afford to quit, you can:

A) Suck it up and keep working nights and days anyways because this is probably what will earn you the most money.
B) Find a practice where you won't work nights, either because the group has dedicated nocturnists, pre-partners who work nights, or you have partners who choose to work nights because the group pays more for night shifts and most likely the younger partners are willing to do that. This probably earns a little less than option A unless you set yourself up in a partnership from the getgo where you don't have to work nights as you get older because the junior partners take care of it.
C) Leave the ED altogether and work at something like a walk-in clinic where you have better hours. Probably earns less per hour than A or B.

ED burnout is real and shouldn't be ignored, but all of these "problems" only exist if you aren't savvy with your money in your early working years. The moral of the story is to save/invest wisely so you aren't left in a position where you're working more than you want to simply because you have to.
 
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I doubt there are specific numbers out there available, but you're right that EM docs 50+ years old are either not working those shifts or are really hating them if they are. Retiring early isn't "losing out" because you'll only retire when you've saved enough money to live the standard of living you want for the rest of your life. If you don't save well and then you hit 50 and realize you don't like all the work you're doing but you can't afford to quit, you can:

A) Suck it up and keep working nights and days anyways because this is probably what will earn you the most money.
B) Find a practice where you won't work nights, either because the group has dedicated nocturnists, pre-partners who work nights, or you have partners who choose to work nights because the group pays more for night shifts and most likely the younger partners are willing to do that. This probably earns a little less than option A unless you set yourself up in a partnership from the getgo where you don't have to work nights as you get older because the junior partners take care of it.
C) Leave the ED altogether and work at something like a walk-in clinic where you have better hours. Probably earns less per hour than A or B.

ED burnout is real and shouldn't be ignored, but all of these "problems" only exist if you aren't savvy with your money in your early working years. The moral of the story is to save/invest wisely so you aren't left in a position where you're working more than you want to simply because you have to.
-Sometimes you wanna continue to do what you love but in this instance you cant, age will catch up and hinder you from doing that.

Yes, one can save/invest wisely but you can do that in any specialty of medicine. Opportunity cost- the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. So, by retiring early, say 50, you lose out on 10-15 years of additional income/practice of a specialty without crazy hours. The additional income made (relative to lower paying specialties) completely cancels out and at the cost of one's health....This seems like a very stupid specialty to choose given the compensation.
 
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-Sometimes you wanna continue to do what you love but in this instance you cant, age will catch up and hinder you from doing that.

Yes, one can save/invest wisely but you can do that in any specialty of medicine. Opportunity cost- the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. So, by retiring early, say 50, you lose out on 10-15 years of additional income/practice of a specialty without crazy hours. The additional income made (relative to lower paying specialties) completely cancels out and at the cost of one's health....This seems like a very stupid specialty to choose given the compensation.

Well I think you're absolutely right that only choosing EM because you think its a gravy train is a bad idea. At the same time, if you're talking about opportunity costs you should also consider the fact that as far as 3 year residencies go, I don't think you can make as much on average as the ED docs do. The gap only widens when you look at a per hour basis (EM docs generally work fewer hours per week than most specialties and still earn yearly salaries greater than any of their 3 year residency colleagues).

I think I presented several scenarios where somebody can keep their health/longevity by choosing their shifts and practice wisely and turning back the hours if you realize you're doing too many of them. I do not believe it's a foregone conclusion that you're going to lose your health in EM. Yes, the scheduling isn't ideal compared to many other fields of medicine, but they're compensated better for those hours for a reason (so they work fewer of them). Working nights and days effects everybody differently and I know for many people this is a deal breaker from the start, which is totally acceptable. But for those of us who like the medicine being done in the ED, I think there are plenty of strategies for ensuring that you have a career you enjoy.
 
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move to pre-allo

oregon blows btw
 
I agree with what @CliveStaples has said. There aren't many fields out there where you can reasonably expect to make 250k+ while working less than 40 hours per week, but I've met several EM docs who do. Yes, a lot of people will have to work night shifts or odd hours, but you can find places that have nice benefits after a few years of work. I recently listened to an EM who worked at a hospital where all physicians that had been at the hospital for at least 5 years and were 50 or older were not required to work night shifts and only had to work 2 weekend shifts per month and still made good money. 36 hour weeks, with 2 weekend shifts per month and around 300k/year doesn't sound like a bad deal to me. I'm guessing that's not the norm, but the opportunities are out there.
 
I know many EM docs working in their fifties. But today is not your Grandfather's EM.
1. There are many groups that will allow you to not do nites b/c they have nocturnists. I am in one and have not done a true night for 15 yrs
2. Go to a FSED and see 8 pts in your 12 hr shift and make 180/hr
3. Go work Urgent care and make 100/hr
4. Cut back and work 8 days a month and semi retire and still make 200k/yr.

Many possibilities.

I am 42 and hopefully before 45 will be working about 8 shifts a month.
 
Anyone know of this? I find it hard to think there are a lot of EM doctors in their 50's and up working graveyard shifts and such. Decent-Above average pay but is that not counteracted by the fact that these doctors will likely retire much earlier than other specialties therefore losing out in the long run?

You seem to make quite a lot of posts on here and the EM subforum about compensation in EM. Are you sure this is the right field for you? Are you even a med student?
 
I know many EM docs working in their fifties. But today is not your Grandfather's EM.
1. There are many groups that will allow you to not do nites b/c they have nocturnists. I am in one and have not done a true night for 15 yrs
2. Go to a FSED and see 8 pts in your 12 hr shift and make 180/hr
3. Go work Urgent care and make 100/hr
4. Cut back and work 8 days a month and semi retire and still make 200k/yr.

Many possibilities.

I am 42 and hopefully before 45 will be working about 8 shifts a month.

EM just seems so overpaid when you compare them to other docs. Sure there's a lot of stress but I don't think it's magically higher than other specialties.

What other areas in the medical field can you work 8 days a month and make 200k a year?

What kind of ED doc sees 8 patients in a 12 hr shift? The ones I've seen probably see at least double that.
 
That's because it isn't true. ER docs who only work 8 days per month do NOT make $200k per year.

EM just seems so overpaid when you compare them to other docs. Sure there's a lot of stress but I don't think it's magically higher than other specialties.

What other areas in the medical field can you work 8 days a month and make 200k a year?

What kind of ED doc sees 8 patients in a 12 hr shift? The ones I've seen probably see at least double that.
 
Where are you getting these figures from? I'm highly skeptical that an ER doc working 8days/month is making $200k/yr.

I know many EM docs working in their fifties. But today is not your Grandfather's EM.
1. There are many groups that will allow you to not do nites b/c they have nocturnists. I am in one and have not done a true night for 15 yrs
2. Go to a FSED and see 8 pts in your 12 hr shift and make 180/hr
3. Go work Urgent care and make 100/hr
4. Cut back and work 8 days a month and semi retire and still make 200k/yr.

Many possibilities.

I am 42 and hopefully before 45 will be working about 8 shifts a month.
 
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Where are you getting these figures from? I'm highly skeptical that an ER doc working 8days/month is making $200k/yr.
Himself, who is an EP. Did you even read the last line?

OP is not even a medical student. Idk why do you guys even bother. Tell this person to get into medical school first.
 
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Himself, who is an EP. Did you even read the last line?

OP is not even a medical student. Idk why do you guys even bother. Tell this person to get into medical school first.
i never changed my status and dont really care to. Either way, there appears to be some confusion in this thread along with contradictory information.
 
Yup, I did read it. Did you? It says he HOPES to be working 8 shifts per month 3 years from now. That doesn't mean he IS working 8 shifts/month and pulling in $200k. Understand the difference, genius? A normal shift is between 8-12 hours. Working 8 of those per month comes out to 64-96 hrs/month, which is 768-1152hrs per year. My guess is that the average ER doc works 1500-2400hrs per year. The average salary is probably around $260k/yr. The hours he is talking about is basically half the average hours but NOT half the average pay. That's why I questioned it. Its seemed a bit exaggerated to me. However, I could be wrong, which is why I asked.

Himself, who is an EP. Did you even read the last line?

OP is not even a medical student. Idk why do you guys even bother. Tell this person to get into medical school first.
 
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@GaiusOctavius $200 (low end) x 12 hrs shift x 8 shifts per month x 12 months = $230,400 pre-tax. Exaggerated? Smh.

so then why aren't the average ones making a lot more? your calculation doesn't pass the sniff test. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say most EMs work significantly more than 8 shifts a month, yet as previously stated, the avg salary is ~ 270 on medscape

I don't think 200 is on the low end either. again, basic logic
 
not to mention I'm pretty sure if there was a medical specialty where large amounts of people could work 96 hours a month and make 200k+, people would flock to it in droves. you have to realistic.

maybe that's doable if you do locums in a terrible location where no one wants to work. I suspect there's more to the story than avg joe MD working 8 shifts in a typical ED making over 200k for 24 hours a week.

If not ,sign me up
 
The typical shift number for full time EM docs I've met is 16-17 per month, but many of them were well north of 300k (eat what u kill payment model).
 
3 sources put average salary at $228, $206, $270. My understanding is that EM physicians are paid by: 1. Hourly wage and 2. some sort of combination of complexity of case and number of ancillary tests run. Am I wrong about this? I'm not sure how the ACA has changed this (moving from fee for service to pay for performance), but this is the way I understood ER doc pay to function pre-ACA. If you reduce the number of hours (this also reduces the number of Pts seen and tests run) you are going to significantly reduce pay.

What makes you think ER docs make $200/hr and that this is on the low end?

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/emergency-medicine-physician-salary-SRCH_KO0,28.htm
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_/_Doctor,_Emergency_Room_(ER)/Salary
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2013/emergencymedicine

@GaiusOctavius $200 (low end) x 12 hrs shift x 8 shifts per month x 12 months = $230,400 pre-tax. See how I just did a little math for you, genius. Smh.

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2015/emergencymedicine#page=2
Way off, medscape listed EM average is $306k. Remember, medscape reported the low end of salary.
 
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EM just seems so overpaid when you compare them to other docs. Sure there's a lot of stress but I don't think it's magically higher than other specialties.

What other areas in the medical field can you work 8 days a month and make 200k a year?

What kind of ED doc sees 8 patients in a 12 hr shift? The ones I've seen probably see at least double that.

I find much ignorance in people who flatly state that someone is overpaid. There is no such thing as being overpaid. You are Paid what you are worth. You pay keeps going up until the supply and demand balance out.

I absolutely do not work as hard as a roofer but there are thousands of roofers to an ER doc. There is a reason some actors make 25 mil a movie. They don't work any harder than other actors or even harder than a janitor. Its that they are rare. Its what people are willing to pay them.

And I am sorry that I mistyped about working 8 days a month and making 200k. I have thrown away multiple contract offers where I would make 20k/month working 5-12 hr shifts. So I actually gave myself less value.


Also busy FSEDs see 8 pts/12 hr shift. most don't break 6pts/12 hrs.
 
Yup, I did read it. Did you? It says he HOPES to be working 8 shifts per month 3 years from now. That doesn't mean he IS working 8 shifts/month and pulling in $200k. Understand the difference, genius? A normal shift is between 8-12 hours. Working 8 of those per month comes out to 64-96 hrs/month, which is 768-1152hrs per year. My guess is that the average ER doc works 1500-2400hrs per year. The average salary is probably around $260k/yr. The hours he is talking about is basically half the average hours but NOT half the average pay. That's why I questioned it. Its seemed a bit exaggerated to me. However, I could be wrong, which is why I asked.

I am not going to argue what you think people told you to what I do as a living.

Hopes to me means that I hope to be able to semi retire in 3-5 yrs, not making the money quoted.

I have contracts I have thrown away where I would get paid over 4k/12 hrs. That would work out to 20k/mo for 5 shifts or 240k. So I understated my worth. And i throw it away not because I am rich, but because I have better opportunities not related to money. I take a paycut to work where I want but not much of a cut.

But I and most EM docs can tell you they can find contracts for 8 shifts/mo and clear close to 400K. I cleared 25K last month working 50 hrs moonlighting.

So everything you state is absolutely incorrect and your ignorance is showing. you should do some real research other than google.
 
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3 sources put average salary at $228, $206, $270. My understanding is that EM physicians are paid by: 1. Hourly wage and 2. some sort of combination of complexity of case and number of ancillary tests run. Am I wrong about this? I'm not sure how the ACA has changed this (moving from fee for service to pay for performance), but this is the way I understood ER doc pay to function pre-ACA. If you reduce the number of hours (this also reduces the number of Pts seen and tests run) you are going to significantly reduce pay.

What makes you think ER docs make $200/hr and that this is on the low end?

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/emergency-medicine-physician-salary-SRCH_KO0,28.htm
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_/_Doctor,_Emergency_Room_(ER)/Salary
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2013/emergencymedicine


Most EM docs DO NOT do 16+ shifts a month. Most do 12-15 and considered full time.

Those internet numbers are a waste of time and incorrect. I suspect they mix full time, part time, Urgent care, academic docs. The only salary calculation that matters is full time non academic which most are going into out of residency.

The reason fresh EM docs gets such crappy contracts is that they don't know the market. They look up medscape, see the 280-300K avg and jump at any contract offering north of that.

If I am working 120hr/month, I would not accept anything less than 360k a year which comes out to $250/hr. i could make that much working 60 hrs/mo tomorrow.

And yes, $200/hr is the Low end without benefits. I would say 200/hr with benefits is on the low end.
 
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well, looks like I'm going into EM

I guess I just don't understand why avg ED docs get paid over 2x/hr what an avg surgeon does. I'm usually on board with the whole " you get what you are worth" argument like you said, but it just doesn't seem logical here.
 
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well, looks like I'm going into EM

I guess I just don't understand why avg ED docs get paid over 2x/hr what an avg surgeon does. I'm usually on board with the whole " you get what you are worth" argument like you said, but it just doesn't seem logical here.

It doesn't seem logical because its not true.
 
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It doesn't seem logical because its not true.

Most of those Medscape averages are way off. EM is Way off for a full time working in a real ED. I am quite sure I make less than Gas, GI, cards, surg, rad. But I do work less.

I am not going to even try to debate this. Every ED doc I know make between 200-350/hr IC. Go to real short places and you can get 500+/hr. I have worked 700/hr shifts. You do the math.
 
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so then why aren't the average ones making a lot more? your calculation doesn't pass the sniff test. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say most EMs work significantly more than 8 shifts a month, yet as previously stated, the avg salary is ~ 270 on medscape

I don't think 200 is on the low end either. again, basic logic

You have to realize that there is a HUGE variation in salary for EM based on location (South/Midwest vs New England/West Coast) and hospital type (Private vs Academic).

Some academic EM docs in highly desirable places like Seattle/Boston only make around 200K/yr full time. At the same time, some community EM docs in less desirable places like rural Texas make around 400K/yr full time. You can make the same if not more doing locum tenens work as well (which has its own downsides).

The reason why most EM docs aren't pulling in that much is that most people don't want to live in rural Texas or Louisiana. As a result, hospitals there are willing to pay board certified EM docs that much because in those markets demand>>>supply.
 
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You have to realize that there is a HUGE variation in salary for EM based on location (South/Midwest vs New England/West Coast) and hospital type (Private vs Academic).

Some academic EM docs in highly desirable places like Seattle/Boston only make around 200K/yr full time. At the same time, some community EM docs in less desirable places like rural Texas make around 400K/yr full time. You can make the same if not more doing locum tenens work as well (which has its own downsides).

The reason why most EM docs aren't pulling in that much is that most people don't want to live in rural Texas or Louisiana. As a result, hospitals there are willing to pay board certified EM docs that much because in those markets demand>>>supply.

Good post, but people also have to realize there's a further discrepancy about EM docs that got swooped up by CMGs vs. those who are still partners/private groups. Very significant differences in pay between those two groups as well.

By the time most of us (current 1st/2nd years) graduate, there will be almost no open doors to partnership tracks and you'll pray you make 250/year.
 
I agree, but the numbers being claimed in this thread would disagree with that.

@Winged Scapula was not disputing that EM doctors earn 300/hr. She was disputing that surgeons earn half that amount. I know a general surgeon who allegedly earns 1.5 million/year in a decent Midwestern city. He's very efficient and does a lot of day-surgery cases.

Regardless of the numbers reported, general surgeons can earn 400k/year without living in rural America and without working over 50hrs/week.
 
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Does where you do your residency have any effect on compensation?
 
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Does where you do your residency have any effect on compensation?

I would say for 90% of the nonacademic jobs, people could care less where you did your college, med school, or residency. In noncompetitive places, you could graduate from ISIS U and they would welcome you with open arms. I have seen the quality in short areas.

In sought after areas, it all depends on who you know. Very little where you graduate. A Partner that vouches for someone from a lower tier program trumps a chief resident from a top program.
If a partner says they want someone in the group, and there is an open spot then its pretty much a done deal.

So unless you are going to academics, no one really cares where you did your residency assuming it is in the US.
 
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It doesn't seem logical because its not true.

Pay per hr and overall pay are two different beasts. If you just compare pay/hr, then EM docs is close to the top of the food chain b/c most work less than 40 hrs. But we usually work most of those 40 hrs doing work. A surgeon may need to work 50 hrs to make EM pay but a decent amount of that is non paying activities (Driving to call, waiting around for cases to start, eating lunch, etc). If you just calculated on actual work, i am sure a surgeon makes more/hr than most EM docs.
 
Pay per hr and overall pay are two different beasts. If you just compare pay/hr, then EM docs is close to the top of the food chain b/c most work less than 40 hrs. But we usually work most of those 40 hrs doing work. A surgeon may need to work 50 hrs to make EM pay but a decent amount of that is non paying activities (Driving to call, waiting around for cases to start, eating lunch, etc). If you just calculated on actual work, i am sure a surgeon makes more/hr than most EM docs.

I don't remember the last time I had lunch during an office or OR day. And not all of us "drive to call" or wait around for cases to start.

I understand the point about hours vs overall pay. I'm not sure the medical students and pre-medical students do because they are assuming the average EP makes twice what the average surgeon does and they are using flawed databases.
 
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I don't remember the last time I had lunch during an office or OR day. And not all of us "drive to call" or wait around for cases to start.

I understand the point about hours vs overall pay. I'm not sure the medical students and pre-medical students do because they are assuming the average EP makes twice what the average surgeon does and they are using flawed databases.

You may not but when i walk in the doctors lounge, Most specialists are there but a few including EM. I take my food to my computer to do work b/c there are always needs from nurses/staff/other specialists. I can't take an hr break and forget about the ED.

My point is between cases most surgeons has to wait for the OR to clear, be cleaned, pt brought back, then wait on Gas to do their thing. I hear constant complaints from Surgeons on delays and all they are doing is sitting in the lounge wasting time. They can't go back to the office b/c its a waste of time. They essentially site there waiting on the pt to be brought back.
 
You may not but when i walk in the doctors lounge, Most specialists are there but a few including EM. I take my food to my computer to do work b/c there are always needs from nurses/staff/other specialists. I can't take an hr break and forget about the ED.

My point is between cases most surgeons has to wait for the OR to clear, be cleaned, pt brought back, then wait on Gas to do their thing. I hear constant complaints from Surgeons on delays and all they are doing is sitting in the lounge wasting time. They can't go back to the office b/c its a waste of time. They essentially site there waiting on the pt to be brought back.
Of course that happens and its happened to me as well; I'm not unaware of what delays can be like.

However, not all surgical centers and hospitals function that way; we have an average of 22 minute turn over time which barely leaves me enough time to talk to family and see the next patient, let alone have enough time for lunch. When I run two rooms, I have even less time.
 
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who takes an hour break for lunch?

you talk about seeing 6 patients per shift but say you have no downtime. that's the definition of irony.
 
Of course that happens and its happened to me as well; I'm not unaware of what delays can be like.

However, not all surgical centers and hospitals function that way; we have an average of 22 minute turn over time which barely leaves me enough time to talk to family and see the next patient, let alone have enough time for lunch. When I run two rooms, I have even less time.

I am sure during those days, in your 8 hrs, you are making much more than my 8 hrs.
 
who takes an hour break for lunch?

you talk about seeing 6 patients per shift but say you have no downtime. that's the definition of irony.

He never said he lacks downtime working the FSED.

Don't go into EM for the money. Go into it if you think you'll like the work. I like the mix of healthy kid with a fever, laceration, chest pain, cardiac arrest, drunk guy, work note that I see at work. If that's not you, do something else.
 
I am sure during those days, in your 8 hrs, you are making much more than my 8 hrs.
Perhaps but that's not the point.

There are a thousand ways to skin a cat; students who are thinking that EM is the way to easy money are mistaken just as much as those who think its impossible to make good money in general surgery without working 80 hours per week.
 
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