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Well, not to be a Buzz Killington but.......you're gonna be broke in the future.
I find the fatalism in medicine to be remarkable. I remember my parents having this same conversation with their physician friends when I was a kid. Compare medicine to virtually any other job and it's really not a terrible gig. It's intellectually stimulating, it pays fairly well, and there are few professions with better overall job security. Look at law. There are thousands of law school grads who can't find a job now. Admittedly, the future is always uncertain, but at the moment, it still seems like a pretty reasonable career choice.
The desire to do medicine and satisfaction aside; it seems like if physician wages dropped below 200k it would be much less attractive from a financial point of view. I realize there are physicians who dont make this much; but, I imagine there are alot of specialists that make more making it a reasonable figure to try to attain. The largest question is weather wages will continue at this level for people who have not yet entered the profession & take out substantial loans.
I would agree though; practicing medicine seems like a very unique opportunity, pretty cool infact.
I would agree though; practicing medicine seems like a very unique opportunity, pretty cool infact.
Yappy, go into medicine because you want to, not because of the money. Who knows what the financial situation will be like in the future. My father runs gas stations with my uncle. I could have easily gone into the family business and done well for myself. No new loans to take out, and an already established business is hard to beat. I, however, have no real interest in business. There is no point killing yourself with work/studying if you are not going to be happy at the end of the day. It will eat away at you.
So my take home point is, forget about what other people think and forget about people who think they can predict the future. Listen to everyone, but at the end of the day make up your own mind.
There are no guarantees in life, but job security/opportunities are better in the medical field than many other fields. You will be fine in the long run. If you enjoy what you do, it will show in your work. That itself will help with job security to a degree.
I wouldn't listen to the old dude in Starbucks......you must live in San Francisco or something....
Not sure how to answer your question.....it doesn't really matter how much a school charges, your income will depend on what field you choose, where you live, and how hard you wanna work. You can search this forum and there are plenty of threads on how much attending physicians can make. It's not that we're cryptic there's just so many variables that it's impossible to say how much you should expect to make in a blanket type statement. No matter what field of medicine you go into it will be a long and hard journey, if money is your only motivator you will be sorely disappointed b/c no amount of $$ will make you happy when you get called to work @ 2am or have to miss your kids soccer game. You need to find an external motivator to do this job and that's so why many of us preach to do what you like and not focus on the $$. You will make good money regardless of what field you go into
If you take a full time job in anesthesia for less than $300 you're a sucker. If it's 1099, make it 400. How's that. Of note, you could easily double that if you work hard in the right place. The key variables are:
Money
Location
Lifestyle
You get to pick two out of the three.
It's a very rare job that has all three.
Want the loot in southern CA? Better plan to work late and take extra call and overtime. Want to get out at 2 and race your new 911 turbo, Cheyenne Wyoming is calling your name.
You get the drift.
Who knows what things will look like in 10 years. Too many variables. Maybe you'll need to work till 3 and get a Carrera S?
Good luck.
Amen. I worked an office job for four years and lived "the life" these guys allude to as a single 20 something making nearly 6figs...but I was unhappy in the doldrums of office life. Even on my crappiest days in medicine, it still beats staring at excel
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let's wait a couple more years before you finalize your judgement. those offices with excel sheets one day may start to seem extremely appealing
Cheyenne Wyoming always takes a punch in these conversations. I have been to Cheyenne and I guarantee you it is not as bad as advertised. But it's hella close!
No man. He's not an outlier.
I as well have no idea who compiles these numbers either.
THREE HUNDRED LARGE
is what you should be seeing as a graduating resident.
Period.
This made me laugh, thanks... granted it's been a while since I've been back.
Veterinary surgeon... only in America will teeth and pets be able to provide such a great lifestyle and compensation.
Busting on my home town...problem is no porsche dealer in town.
Only ITP. As was mentioned above, you have to pick your poison. Lifestyle, location, money. Of you are inside the perimeter, you get location. The bigger dollars may come, along with lifestyle, if you make partner in one of the Gucci groups. For example, we are OTP, so may sacrifice location, but just hired a new associate at well over 300k.
He will have ample opportunity to gain "lifestyle" points with the extra bank vs his newly-hired colleagues ITP. At least until/if they make partner, then ?
Perhaps misinformed, but I was told experienced people can expect the mid-threes as new faculty hires at Emory. No?
I am not sure about Emory, but that certainly seems reasonable. Other places in academia seem to offer a little less, but there are some that offer higher based upon years of experience (ie Mayo). Our employed group decided to offer more based upon experience.
Faculty salary varies tremendously by location and workload. Not surprisingly, more clinical responsibility (clinical days) usually means more money, but not always so don't be a sucker. I've seen under 200 base salaries😱 and up well into the 4s.😉 For junior faculty, though maybe not a brand new, unboarded clinical instructor. Most universities also offer generous benefits that must be considered (401k/403b matching, supplemental annuities, traditional pensions, health, disability, tuition plans, etc.) They have real value and have to be considered when looking at your options. They tell me mine are worth $85k/yr excluding malpractice, and the tuition benefit which are paid separately. My tuition benefit will be worth $160-300k depending on where the kids go to school, assuming I stay on. So, if I need to stay on another 10 or so years, that's like taking home an extra 16-30k a year. Not too shabby. Having said that, having your own corporation allows you to fund your own retirement, extra pre tax deductions, etc. lots of different options. That's a whole separate thread.
So maybe your 1099 pal is buying a new AMG Benz thinking he's a baller with 420k, but your 300k faculty job actually "pays" better per hour, and likely has better job security.😎
Some faculty spots pay more for productivity, extra clinical days, extra late/call shifts, etc. Every place is different, it's worth a look
So maybe your 1099 pal is buying a new AMG Benz thinking he's a baller with 420k, but your 300k faculty job actually "pays" better per hour, and likely has better job security.😎
Some faculty spots pay more for productivity, extra clinical days, extra late/call shifts, etc. Every place is different, it's worth a look
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IlDestriero is right... Take a long, hard look at the benefits. They can make a world of difference. Also, being a 1099 can be advantageous for write-off purposes. For instance, on top of our base salary, we have an executive bonus structure, 9+ weeks of paid vacation, paid malpractice, tail coverage, subsidized medical/dental/vision, legal, life insurance, disability (short and long-term), CME fund, matching 401k/403b contributions, 457, etc. Add all of that in and that number suddenly gets a whole lot larger.
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Which academic institutions are rolling that large IlD?
I've been trying to also figure the details of going into academics. I think you can get appointed as an associate/assistant clinical professor of Anesthesia if you get hired through the Med school and work at their flagship hospital; and for clinical it's usually resident/med student responsibilities for the most part.
If you have a faculty appointment and are employed through the university, that's academia. The degree of research required would depend on your academic track, anywhere from 0%-100% research time.
If you're employed by some group, solo, etc. with an adjunct faculty appointment, that's not academic medicine.
If you're employed by some group, solo, etc. with an adjunct faculty appointment, that's not academic medicine.
I think the reason people are complaining is because they throw away the best years of their life (their 20s) to study medicine. You're literally making a deal with the devil, trading away your youth for a nice paycheck at the end of it all. While it is true that you have a "somewhat" secured job with a decent income, would you really sacrifice so much of your life to obtain it? does money really matter all that much to you? Is a teacher salary making only 50k really that bad? you throw in another working spouse, now you're making 100k & you are living a good middle class life with plenty of time with family & friends.
Go into medicine if you like to obsess about work. Don't do it for the money, & don't do it because of prestige. If staying motivated to get all those As is difficult, boy you have no idea whats in store for you in medschool. If you want to succeed in medschool, you're literally competing with the smartest/hardest working science-oriented students in the country. If you want to excel in school & stand out, you have to kill yourself competing with people who are willing to do the same. Medschool & beyond is only filled with competition, doing more research than the next guy, getting better grades than your classmates, all so you can secure a better job. Once you have the job, now you're doing more research than the next guy so you can secure a better fellowship. Etc... the work in medicine never ends. You literally have to be a workaholic to enjoy it, & as a pre-health student, its REALLY hard for you to judge whether or not its for you. But trust me, if you're having doubts about getting As in college, its not for you (I was getting As while working a full time job + doing research on the side). This is the kind of work ethic you will be competing with in the future. Either you play the game in medschool & kill yourself to win, OR you pray you end up in a pass/fail school, try to breeze through & go into something non-competitive.
Go into medicine if you like to obsess about work. Don't do it for the money, & don't do it because of prestige. If staying motivated to get all those As is difficult, boy you have no idea whats in store for you in medschool. If you want to succeed in medschool, you're literally competing with the smartest/hardest working science-oriented students in the country. If you want to excel in school & stand out, you have to kill yourself competing with people who are willing to do the same. Medschool & beyond is only filled with competition, doing more research than the next guy, getting better grades than your classmates, all so you can secure a better job. Once you have the job, now you're doing more research than the next guy so you can secure a better fellowship. Etc... the work in medicine never ends. You literally have to be a workaholic to enjoy it, & as a pre-health student, its REALLY hard for you to judge whether or not its for you. But trust me, if you're having doubts about getting As in college, its not for you (I was getting As while working a full time job + doing research on the side). This is the kind of work ethic you will be competing with in the future. Either you play the game in medschool & kill yourself to win, OR you pray you end up in a pass/fail school, try to breeze through & go into something non-competitive.
To the above poster: Untrue.
Medicine has easier paths once you are out of medical school. On the residency interview trail I have seen candidates who want to take it easy in residency and programs that seem to have an easy going attitude. On the other hand there are both candidates and programs that are hardcore and attract some of the toughest souls in medicine. It all depends on your life goals. If you want to be the youngest chair of anesthesiology on the west coast then you have to be a gunner and have to train at a hardworking, big name program. Thats the tenure track. If you have a husband and kids, you can easily go to mommy-track and do ambulatory anesthesia or part time work after completing residency. Med school and residency are responsibilities and you have to be good at it, but you don't have to kill yourself doing it if you don't want to.
Medicine has easier paths once you are out of medical school. On the residency interview trail I have seen candidates who want to take it easy in residency and programs that seem to have an easy going attitude. On the other hand there are both candidates and programs that are hardcore and attract some of the toughest souls in medicine. It all depends on your life goals. If you want to be the youngest chair of anesthesiology on the west coast then you have to be a gunner and have to train at a hardworking, big name program. Thats the tenure track. If you have a husband and kids, you can easily go to mommy-track and do ambulatory anesthesia or part time work after completing residency. Med school and residency are responsibilities and you have to be good at it, but you don't have to kill yourself doing it if you don't want to.
I hear this a lot (mostly it seems from people in their 20s), but don't really know what it means.
Aside from being incrementally healthier as a 25 yo compared to a 35 yo, what makes that decade by-default better? Maybe I'm an outlier who just wasn't as miserable as I should've been as a 25 yo med student, but my life's gotten better pretty much every year since the day I left high school.
I see the argument, but I think it fails when you consider being a board certified physician in one's 30s or 40s or 50s, working, making far far more money ...
And here, if children are a burden, nothing forces people to have them, ever.
Don't get me wrong, I sacrificed quite a bit of free time in my 20s, but life's pretty good now. And it wouldn't be anywhere near this good if I hadn't "thrown away" those years. I mean, I could be a 38 year old [anything else] and be miserable.
The whole "best years of your life is your 20s" just strikes me as the kind of thing people who peaked in high school say when they talk about high school being the best years of their lives, because they quit doing meaningful stuff after those "best years" ...
I'm not exactly "throwing away" my life in med school, even in my late 20s lol. I honestly have fun on most days and have become friends with some of the most amazing people I could hope to ever meet. Also, and maybe this is tmi, my "amorous" life is 1000x better than in college. 
You only get to live your 20s once. It would have been nice to be able to continue that ride throughout my 20s. Let's face it, once you are in your 30s, very few people can continue that lifestyle... marriage and kids usually put an end to that. So there's a little bit of regret, but in the end I guess it was worth it.
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Arch Guillotti
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I have never understood this line of reasoning. I spent my 20's as a grunt working a lot of overtime for a crumby wage. Medical school in my 30's was hard as heck but I don't have any regrets. I worked my tail off, put my mind to work, met some great friends I will have for the rest of my life, got in the best physical shape of my life, partied like a rock star after exams, and took a few cool trips amongst other things.
I sacrificed a lot to get where I am today but now I am better off than 99% of the schmucks out there.
