Average to poor SLOR the kiss of death?

[sylvanthus]

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Question for those in the know. I am rotating at an academic center where everyone gets good evals and the average score is high 88%.Grades are determined by 4 categores below expectations is 50 meets is 70 exceeds is 80 and strongly exceeds is 100. So even getting exceeds expectations drops you below the average.

I am sitting right below the average or pretty much right at it, but will likely get high pass still. Is it a glaring red flag i i dip into the 33rd percentile and thus am in the bottom third even with a high pass and good comments? The rest of my app is good so I dont want this to hose me right at the end.

 

[sylvanthus]

Tried searching, found no answer, anyone?

 

[deleted109597]

No, an average sLOR is just that, average.

The kiss of death is a "we wouldn't rank this person" sLOR.

 

[Groove]

Kiss of death? Bad interview...

Goes both ways. I remember an interview with a PD who's entire 15 mins revolved around ethical questions about whether I would rat on a colleague who had a drinking problem, in various clinical settings with varying degrees of inebriation. It was really odd. I almost thought to myself "Damn... is there something on my record that says I like to drink? I mean, I like a good Guinness and all but damn.. no DUI, not an alcoholic, what gives?" Found out he asked all the applicants that. He must have been in AA or something. Ranked last. What a weird dude.

 

[Docuronium]

Had our Chair tell me that Letters really didn't mean too much, and certainly aren't given as much importance as students worry about them.

 

[sylvanthus]

So, if everything else looks good, being bottom 3rd on this SLOR isn't going to totally screw me? Should I plan on applying for more programs to be safe?

 

[gutonc]

I think EM SLORs, with their largely checkbox nature are a bit less subject to the "mediocre = bad" issue inherent in regular LORs. Since the SLOR form is a more (semi-)objective measure than the typical text LOR it's probably taken more at face value than other LORs where people are always trying to parse the text and figure out what the writer really meant.

 

[winkleweizen]

Had our Chair tell me that Letters really didn't mean too much, and certainly aren't given as much importance as students worry about them.

Really? Ive heard the opposite that some consider them the most important part of the app.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Really? Ive heard the opposite that some consider them the most important part of the app.

Ditto. Regular lors I was told some don't read but the SLORs carry a lot of value.

 

[sylvanthus]

Ugh, I shoulda just not done an away rotation. Whoulda thought getting "exceeds expectations" on evals could actually end up harming my application. Awesome, just awesome.

 

[Docuronium]

Really? Ive heard the opposite that some consider them the most important part of the app.

Well, I'm just going with what our Chair told me. I'd imagine they are more important than that, but probably not the "most important" part. And I would simply say our Chair really seems to know what they're talking about.

 

[Docuronium]

The program director survey in 2008 seems to give a lot of weight to them, but then again, essentially everything is listed fairly close together in terms of importance. Letters from "other faculty" aren't listed too much lower than "department chair in the specialty." Also, personal statement slides in just above "volunteer experiences."

Would it be nice to have a glowing with praise letter? Yes. Will it kill your application to be listed as an "exceeds expectations" medical student? No. Lots of things go into invites, this certainly isn't a "kiss of death."

If they listed "not likely to match at our program" or "poor interpersonal skills" on the SLOR, that sounds like a kiss of death to me.

 

[sylvanthus]

Ehh guess I am just worried as no one will see this "exceeds expectations" portion, as all that will be in the SLOR is a check mark next to "bottom third." Ahh well it is what it is I guess.

 

[StevieStud]

Everything is relative.

"bottom third." at Big Name is middle third at State and top third at Community.

 

[FSU2013]

Everything is relative.

"bottom third." at Big Name is middle third at State and top third at Community.

I have a hard time believing that. I get the wow factor with big name program, but I highly doubt that the top applicants at one program would be in the bottom of another. Seems a bit extreme.

 

[Docuronium]

Agreed. That simply doesn't seem possible, especially at the M4 level. Really just depends on whether you combine adequate preparation with luck.

 

[TeamZissou]

Ugh, I shoulda just not done an away rotation. Whoulda thought getting "exceeds expectations" on evals could actually end up harming my application. Awesome, just awesome.

Hang in there bro, I don't think it will be as damning as you fear. I mean if it's a normal program they ca be continuously ranking students that low.

I wonder if this means it would be better to do at least 2 aways that way you would have a letter to drop should it be lackluster?

 

[tkim]

Hang in there bro, I don't think it will be as damning as you fear. I mean if it's a normal program they ca be continuously ranking students that low.

I wonder if this means it would be better to do at least 2 aways that way you would have a letter to drop should it be lackluster?

Programs will ask you where you rotated and may expect to see the SLOR from that program.

 

[Doctor Bob]

The program directors, in general, know how other programs grade people.

When we'd sit around and go through applications, our PD would say "well this is in line with how that program usually grades people".

So a place that inflates was known for inflation (and a low score really meant something bad) and a place that didn't inflate was known as such (and the scores could be taken at face value).

Plus when we had someone with 2 different SLORs (one good, one bad), our PD would call the PD of the place with the bad score and ask why the low score. We didn't call and ask about good scores (they were expected).

 

[TeamZissou]

Programs will ask you where you rotated and may expect to see the SLOR from that program.

Supports my theory of just lettin it all hang out, we're human, they know it so no need to deny it.

Whats the thought on the best way to own up to and explain your deficiencies (LOA, low step I, avg SLOR etc) without sounding like you are making excuses or asking for leeway?

 

[DeadCactus]

Supports my theory of just lettin it all hang out, we're human, they know it so no need to deny it.

Whats the thought on the best way to own up to and explain your deficiencies (LOA, low step I, avg SLOR etc) without sounding like you are making excuses or asking for leeway?

X happened because of Y and from the experience I gained Z (BONUS: as demonstrated by 1, 2, and 3).

Ex: I failed Step 1 because I didn't have a good strategy for handling the material but I took it as an opportunity to reinforce the basic science material and find study strategies that worked well for me. I went on to do well on the re-take, my clinical shelf exams, and Step 2.

Obviously the fewer negative marks you have the stronger of an upward trend afterward, the easier it is...

 

[TeamZissou]

X happened because of Y and from the experience I gained Z (BONUS: as demonstrated by 1, 2, and 3).

Ex: I failed Step 1 because I didn't have a good strategy for handling the material but I took it as an opportunity to reinforce the basic science material and find study strategies that worked well for me. I went on to do well on the re-take, my clinical shelf exams, and Step 2.

Obviously the fewer negative marks you have the stronger of an upward trend afterward, the easier it is...

You make it sound so simple 🙄

It will be interesting to see how the 2013 match compares to 2012, especially if it keeps getting more competitive (which I think it will judging by the fact it seems like half the class is "thinking about it").

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Supports my theory of just lettin it all hang out, we're human, they know it so no need to deny it.

Whats the thought on the best way to own up to and explain your deficiencies (LOA, low step I, avg SLOR etc) without sounding like you are making excuses or asking for leeway?

Project humility.

Demonstrate improvement. We had an applicant who failed Step 1 twice, no idea how she got an interview. She had this great spiel on why it happened, I was like, "no."

Certainly on away rotations you need to have an impressive fund of knowledge or you just look like a person who isn't all that smart. I've had a couple of students who were clinically awesome and I was floored to hear of low Step 1 scores.

You know the fact of the matter is that most applicants who have a red flag on their application (even a small one) are below average applicants and many will cause problems in residency. If you have earned a red flag it's probably time for some serious introspection and maybe even a difficult discussion with a trusted adviser.

 

[sylvanthus]

Just wanted to give people a heads up. I was able to rebound and must have gotten alot of good evals at the end because I ended up honoring the rotation. Still not quite sure how that happened with 7 shifts at below the average and then ending above, but I will take it. Thanks for the advice guys.