AVOID MILITARY MEDICINE if possible

[IgD]

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the link below discusses the serious problems involving the military's failed and flailing attempt to implement EMR...

USAFDoc, in another post you complained how you never had access to medical records. AHLTA/CHCS2 fixes this problem worldwide. The scope of the project is pretty impressive. Nothing like it has ever been done before- creating a single medical records system across all branches of the military for millions of people.

On the other hand I agree with the article that it has problems. Hopefully they will be worked out.

 

[Galo]

USAFDoc, in another post you complained how you never had access to medical records. AHLTA/CHCS2 fixes this problem worldwide. The scope of the project is pretty impressive. Nothing like it has ever been done before- creating a single medical records system across all branches of the military for millions of people.

On the other hand I agree with the article that it has problems. Hopefully they will be worked out.

Once again, not surprised by your post. You point out that we have problems, (not just exUsafdoc), getting charts, and claim that ahlta is a "fix" but also point out that there are problems with it. Clearly its more than problems, its endemically defective, just like the rest of military medicine. I can guarantee you that in the civilian world where this is a priority, there are no problems like in the military.

 

[jacoby]

Army medicine sucks for primary care through any specialty. There is not enough life left in my beaurocratic induced arthritic hands to type my displeasure. If you want to be no more than a number on a page & love to beg for something as minute as decent housing then sign up baby. I feel like I live behind the iron curtain. Big govt is tough...not romantic in any light.

 

[USAFdoc]

USAFDoc, in another post you complained how you never had access to medical records. AHLTA/CHCS2 fixes this problem worldwide. The scope of the project is pretty impressive. Nothing like it has ever been done before- creating a single medical records system across all branches of the military for millions of people.

On the other hand I agree with the article that it has problems. Hopefully they will be worked out.

IgD; following your (flawed) logic you would say that if somebody is starving, they should NOT have any complaint if they are given food, even if it is spoiled and reeking odor, at least they have food.

yes, primary care docs especially need charts, but the value of that chart is offset when you take further time away from actually taking care of the patient.

 

[alpha62]

It took me 18 years just to get some decent on post housing going from E-1 to 0-3. It was a new 3 BR house and I couldn't complain.

For my next door neighbor, a single E-4 mother with 3 kids from 3 different sperm donors, it took exactly 6 months to get the exact same housing on post.

Army medicine sucks for primary care through any specialty. There is not enough life left in my beaurocratic induced arthritic hands to type my displeasure. If you want to be no more than a number on a page & love to beg for something as minute as decent housing then sign up baby. I feel like I live behind the iron curtain. Big govt is tough...not romantic in any light.

 

[RichL025]

It took me 18 years just to get some decent on post housing going from E-1 to 0-3. It was a new 3 BR house and I couldn't complain.

For my next door neighbor, a single E-4 mother with 3 kids from 3 different sperm donors, it took exactly 6 months to get the exact same housing on post.

Jeez, you guys are whining about the free on-post housing? What's next, complaints about the towells in the post gym?

You don't want on-post housing, don't take it! Take your several thousand dollar TAX FREE housing allowance and buy on the economy!!!!!!

As for that E-4 with 3 kids, let's put aside the not-so-subtle implication about you deserving it more than she does, and ask who needs it more. Or would you rather put a single mom on the economy so you would have a shorter commute to work?

Guys want to complain about AHLTA, case loads, primary care roulette, these are all valid complaints. But complaining about THIS???????????

 

[alpha62]

I'd rather not have single mothers in the service period.

Jeez, you guys are whining about the free on-post housing? What's next, complaints about the towells in the post gym?

You don't want on-post housing, don't take it! Take your several thousand dollar TAX FREE housing allowance and buy on the economy!!!!!!

As for that E-4 with 3 kids, let's put aside the not-so-subtle implication about you deserving it more than she does, and ask who needs it more. Or would you rather put a single mom on the economy so you would have a shorter commute to work?

Guys want to complain about AHLTA, case loads, primary care roulette, these are all valid complaints. But complaining about THIS???????????

 

[James Sonne]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

My question is, how do you think that civilian medicine is any different from this? Most doctors, especially in the early life of their career, are extremely overworked. Most hospitals are helplessly under staffed, and the employees are notoriously underpaid. A bureaucracy runs every single hospital, and most of the members are not doctors, at least not actively. And also, you sign a work contract with any place you work that says you must stay on for this number of years before your contract can be re-evaluated. There's not any more freedom or easy living for a civilian doctors as there is for a military doctor.

Now, I would like to note that as a military doctor, you are not underpaid, but paid in advance. Not only was your $200,000 medical school education made free to you, but you were being paid $40,000 a year while going to free medical school. While in the military your pay increases substantially to ... what, $60 to $80 thousand? And you get substantial discounts on everything from housing to insurance and food. Adding that up and suddenly you've made 1.1 million dollars in fourteen years (not including the fact that your housing and living expenses are practically nill); whereas your colleagues in civilian medicine are still an eighth a million in debt. You are 1.1 million in black ink, and your counterpart in civilian medicine is 0.13 million in red ink. How can you complain about that?

I just don't understand how you think your life is worse off. You deal with the same problems as civilian residents and green docs for the same amount of time; but you're ahead 1.3 million dollars, and get to say you served your country as an officer in the armed services, and your family is well cared for.

It seems to me that the major issue is with perspective and/or attitude.

Please enlighten me.

 

[militarymd]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

.

I'm in private practice after 11 years in the Navy....what you say is just plain wrong.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

My question is, how do you think that civilian medicine is any different from this? Most doctors, especially in the early life of their career, are extremely overworked. Most hospitals are helplessly under staffed, and the employees are notoriously underpaid. A bureaucracy runs every single hospital, and most of the members are not doctors, at least not actively. And also, you sign a work contract with any place you work that says you must stay on for this number of years before your contract can be re-evaluated. There's not any more freedom or easy living for a civilian doctors as there is for a military doctor.

Now, I would like to note that as a military doctor, you are not underpaid, but paid in advance. Not only was your $200,000 medical school education made free to you, but you were being paid $40,000 a year while going to free medical school. While in the military your pay increases substantially to ... what, $60 to $80 thousand? And you get substantial discounts on everything from housing to insurance and food. Adding that up and suddenly you've made 1.1 million dollars in fourteen years (not including the fact that your housing and living expenses are practically nill); whereas your colleagues in civilian medicine are still an eighth a million in debt. You are 1.1 million in black ink, and your counterpart in civilian medicine is 0.13 million in red ink. How can you complain about that?

I just don't understand how you think your life is worse off. You deal with the same problems as civilian residents and green docs for the same amount of time; but you're ahead 1.3 million dollars, and get to say you served your country as an officer in the armed services, and your family is well cared for.

It seems to me that the major issue is with perspective and/or attitude.

Please enlighten me.

I smell recruiter. 👎

 

[DropkickMurphy]

get to say you served your country as an officer in the armed services,

Yeah, that's a major plus (no pun intended)

and your family is well cared for.

*reaches for inhaler* Good one....

 

[Galo]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

My question is, how do you think that civilian medicine is any different from this? Most doctors, especially in the early life of their career, are extremely overworked. Most hospitals are helplessly under staffed, and the employees are notoriously underpaid. A bureaucracy runs every single hospital, and most of the members are not doctors, at least not actively. And also, you sign a work contract with any place you work that says you must stay on for this number of years before your contract can be re-evaluated. There's not any more freedom or easy living for a civilian doctors as there is for a military doctor.

Now, I would like to note that as a military doctor, you are not underpaid, but paid in advance. Not only was your $200,000 medical school education made free to you, but you were being paid $40,000 a year while going to free medical school. While in the military your pay increases substantially to ... what, $60 to $80 thousand? And you get substantial discounts on everything from housing to insurance and food. Adding that up and suddenly you've made 1.1 million dollars in fourteen years (not including the fact that your housing and living expenses are practically nill); whereas your colleagues in civilian medicine are still an eighth a million in debt. You are 1.1 million in black ink, and your counterpart in civilian medicine is 0.13 million in red ink. How can you complain about that?

I just don't understand how you think your life is worse off. You deal with the same problems as civilian residents and green docs for the same amount of time; but you're ahead 1.3 million dollars, and get to say you served your country as an officer in the armed services, and your family is well cared for.

It seems to me that the major issue is with perspective and/or attitude.

Please enlighten me.

Dude, of you are not a recruiter, you need to get your head out of the sand and look around. Everything you said about the civilian world is totally wrong. Military medicine SUCKS right now, and all you need to do is read through this forum, or actually call up some docs at any AD base. If you are a recruiter, you have an uphill battle. Change jobs now!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Galo]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

My question is, how do you think that civilian medicine is any different from this? Most doctors, especially in the early life of their career, are extremely overworked. Most hospitals are helplessly under staffed, and the employees are notoriously underpaid. A bureaucracy runs every single hospital, and most of the members are not doctors, at least not actively. And also, you sign a work contract with any place you work that says you must stay on for this number of years before your contract can be re-evaluated. There's not any more freedom or easy living for a civilian doctors as there is for a military doctor.

Now, I would like to note that as a military doctor, you are not underpaid, but paid in advance. Not only was your $200,000 medical school education made free to you, but you were being paid $40,000 a year while going to free medical school. While in the military your pay increases substantially to ... what, $60 to $80 thousand? And you get substantial discounts on everything from housing to insurance and food. Adding that up and suddenly you've made 1.1 million dollars in fourteen years (not including the fact that your housing and living expenses are practically nill); whereas your colleagues in civilian medicine are still an eighth a million in debt. You are 1.1 million in black ink, and your counterpart in civilian medicine is 0.13 million in red ink. How can you complain about that?

I just don't understand how you think your life is worse off. You deal with the same problems as civilian residents and green docs for the same amount of time; but you're ahead 1.3 million dollars, and get to say you served your country as an officer in the armed services, and your family is well cared for.

It seems to me that the major issue is with perspective and/or attitude.

Please enlighten me.

Dude, if you are not a recruiter, you need to get your head out of the sand and look around. Everything you said about the civilian world is totally wrong. Military medicine SUCKS right now, and all you need to do is read through this forum, or actually call up some docs at any AD base. If you are a recruiter, you have an uphill battle. Change jobs now!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[USAFdoc]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

My question is, how do you think that civilian medicine is any different from this? .

1) In the USAF Primary Care, I worked 6 days a week for 3 years straight, 275-375 hours a month. As a CIVILIAN, I work 4 1/2 days a week, 40 hrs/wk.

2) My USAF clinic manning was to be a total of 30 people (docs, nurses, techs) and many days we were manned as low as 6 people! In my civilian practice we rarely are missing even one person, and we have back up people we call in if someone is sick.

3) In the military I made about 60K per year with 2 bonus check possible at about 10K each (if all the required paperwork submitted and the Commander approves..and only if you have at least 1+ years remaining in your term). As a civilian I make a base of 120K with unlimited incentives based on productivity. Some of my colleagues make 200K plus in Family Practice.

4) Military Leadership is top dog in the inept department. Brand new unsupervised PAs seeing complex Internal med patients. No charts available 50-90% of the time, placing novice nurses in charge over physicians, A medical eval board system that is a joke and one in which I had to re-do almost every board I submitted because they sat on some colonels desk too long and the due date expired, cutting support staff (civilian) to save a couple dollars per hours in salary withouit even having the replacemnt hired, hiring civilian doctors, fully enpannelling them and then going over a year without a replacement when the ALL quit due to the ludicrous clinic conditions, have a clinic where EVERY civilian nurse quit, and 8 of 9 civilian doctors quit/left, and the list could go on. See the "AVOID MILITARY MEDICINE if possibel " thread. And this is all without even getting into the TRICARE mess.

5) In the military, NO MATTER WHAT your commander and nurse leadership decide to do, no matter how bad, how undermanned, how compromised patient care is, you have NO VOICE, NO INFLUENCE, and NO OPTIONS. You are stuck there and just do all you can till your date of separation comes. In the CIVILIAN world, even if you could ever find something as broken as military medicine, you can leave. My current contract requires only 30 days notice. And please believe me, nothing could be as broken as a USAF primary care clinic, at least nothing in the USA.


Civilian medicine may indeed have its challenges and problems, but military medicine (and especially Primary care) is exponentially worse off than anything I have seen in the civilian world. And all the while the USAF has been telling the world that retention is great, patient care is wonderful, and it is hilarious to see those military medicine journal ads stating that we should join the military to get away from all the administrative red tape and focus on giving world class care to our patients. It is all a sad joke. 🙁

 

[Croooz]

James,
Address GMO tours, deployment schedules, limited specialty choices, declining case loads, declining skills, non-physicians dictating the medical care to patients, collateral duties (political officer, PFT, EEO...) If you claim that housing is virtually nill then the $18-33k in BAH goes away as well. If you are counting it as salary then this adjusts up or down depending on duty location.

Your "facts" are very off. Everything looks good on paper. Reality is far from paper. When the Navy's strategy for not having enough docs is to simply recruit more there's a problem there. In other areas they look at retention but for docs the Navy knows it has to get them while they're still young and only thinking it's all about the numbers such as yourself.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

So basically the complaints are:
1) over worked
2) under staffed
3) under paid
4) inept bureaucracy in charge
5) you've signed a contract and cannot yet choose to leave

My question is, how do you think that civilian medicine is any different from this? Most doctors, especially in the early life of their career, are extremely overworked. Most hospitals are helplessly under staffed, and the employees are notoriously underpaid. A bureaucracy runs every single hospital, and most of the members are not doctors, at least not actively. And also, you sign a work contract with any place you work that says you must stay on for this number of years before your contract can be re-evaluated. There's not any more freedom or easy living for a civilian doctors as there is for a military doctor.

Now, I would like to note that as a military doctor, you are not underpaid, but paid in advance. Not only was your $200,000 medical school education made free to you, but you were being paid $40,000 a year while going to free medical school. While in the military your pay increases substantially to ... what, $60 to $80 thousand? And you get substantial discounts on everything from housing to insurance and food. Adding that up and suddenly you've made 1.1 million dollars in fourteen years (not including the fact that your housing and living expenses are practically nill); whereas your colleagues in civilian medicine are still an eighth a million in debt. You are 1.1 million in black ink, and your counterpart in civilian medicine is 0.13 million in red ink. How can you complain about that?

I just don't understand how you think your life is worse off. You deal with the same problems as civilian residents and green docs for the same amount of time; but you're ahead 1.3 million dollars, and get to say you served your country as an officer in the armed services, and your family is well cared for.

It seems to me that the major issue is with perspective and/or attitude.

Please enlighten me.

My first impulse after reading this tripe is to ask who you think you are writing to. But I already know. You are writing to those you hope don't know any better, that is who.

Interesting math. Fuzzy, though. As an HPSP "scholarship" recipient, the services have it over you from get go. "Paid in advance"? Maybe, but the backside of the deal works out far better in the interests of the services.
Discounted housing and food? Where? By law, AAFEES has to charge average area prices; there haven't been subsidies at commissaries and exchanges in decades. Discounted housing? Only if you want to live in a crummy BOQ room or are fortunate enough to get an on-base house, which is difficult anywhere that kind of housing is desired. In my entire active duty service, I never lived on base anywhere. You didn't mention that when you choose base housing, the service cuts out your supplemental housing allowance. That's your "discount", if you want it. If you are referring to BAS and BAH as discounts for food and housing, remember these are nothing more than quaint practices that divide pay for housing and food from everything else. All pay as a whole, paid like everywhere else, still isn't competitive except for the prior service member while in residency training. And you conveniently omitted the reality about residency training.
That with GMO assignment becoming more, not less, a requirement to obtaining specialty training, it is possible to complete all of your required HPSP payback before being permitted to set foot in a hospital as a PGY-2 resident.

I have worked and trained on both sides of the base fence. Civilian is better, period. The civilian pathway is more free and has better choices and opportunities for medical students and doctors, and on balance, it pays much better.

Are you a liar? You sure aren't telling the whole truth and you are mighty indignant about it at that. I'd say you have other motives.

Are you a recruiter? Who cares?

 

[Heeed!]

Not only was your $200,000 medical school education made free to you, but you were being paid $40,000 a year while going to free medical school.

Please enlighten me.

It always made me laugh when people said my USAFA education was "free." I paid for it with years of my life and it was rammed up my rear a $0.05 at a time.

And I don't make anywhere near $40,000 while in school. That's 2.5x what I'm making!

My post, along with the others, should help enlighten you, James.

 

[James Sonne]

It always made me laugh when people said my USAFA education was "free." I paid for it with years of my life and it was rammed up my rear a $0.05 at a time.

And I don't make anywhere near $40,000 while in school. That's 2.5x what I'm making!

My post, along with the others, should help enlighten you, James.

I took those figures out of the USUHS handbook.

I'm applying to medical schools right now, considering going to USUHS (one of 17 choices I have) because it sounds like a good opportunity. I'm trying to gather as much information as I can about the life after USUHS; and after reading this thread and the "con" threads as well, I can't honestly say that you're experiencing things that other student doctors and new doctors don't. Why do you think that moonlighting is so popular? Would a doctor with a family moonlight just because it's so peachy and fun? Or is it because they're underpaid. Why do residents get crappy cases and tons of paperwork? Is it because they ask for it, or because the powers-that-be are making them?

Myself being engaged, and will be married before I matriculate, the opportunities that the armed services provide are mostly positive. Sure it's a commitment afterward, but I think it will be a fun and interesting experience; one that will educate me in things other than medicine itself, and allow me to cope with and manage future situations in the private sector more effectively.

I've heard all of your same complaints before from residents and student doctors in the civilian field. It seems to me that, as I said before, attitude is the major contributing factor. Why did you take the HPSP scholarship at all if you didn't care to serve? Sounds like a shallow choice.

 

[Galo]

I took those figures out of the USUHS handbook.

I'm applying to medical schools right now, considering going to USUHS (one of 17 choices I have) because it sounds like a good opportunity. I'm trying to gather as much information as I can about the life after USUHS; and after reading this thread and the "con" threads as well, I can't honestly say that you're experiencing things that other student doctors and new doctors don't. Why do you think that moonlighting is so popular? Would a doctor with a family moonlight just because it's so peachy and fun? Or is it because they're underpaid. Why do residents get crappy cases and tons of paperwork? Is it because they ask for it, or because the powers-that-be are making them?

Myself being engaged, and will be married before I matriculate, the opportunities that the armed services provide are mostly positive. Sure it's a commitment afterward, but I think it will be a fun and interesting experience; one that will educate me in things other than medicine itself, and allow me to cope with and manage future situations in the private sector more effectively.

I've heard all of your same complaints before from residents and student doctors in the civilian field. It seems to me that, as I said before, attitude is the major contributing factor. Why did you take the HPSP scholarship at all if you didn't care to serve? Sounds like a shallow choice.

If after reading all that you have, you are still so hard up to join the military, maybe it was made for you. Call up a guy named idg on this board, he'll be a great resource to you.

Have you actually called any current AD physicians in various fields, or even the one you think you may end up at???

If you believe everything the AF or recruiters tell you, you are in for one big shock.

Military medicine sucks, 100%.

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

I took those figures out of the USUHS handbook.

I'm applying to medical schools right now, considering going to USUHS (one of 17 choices I have) because it sounds like a good opportunity. I'm trying to gather as much information as I can about the life after USUHS; and after reading this thread and the "con" threads as well, I can't honestly say that you're experiencing things that other student doctors and new doctors don't. Why do you think that moonlighting is so popular? Would a doctor with a family moonlight just because it's so peachy and fun? Or is it because they're underpaid. Why do residents get crappy cases and tons of paperwork? Is it because they ask for it, or because the powers-that-be are making them?

Myself being engaged, and will be married before I matriculate, the opportunities that the armed services provide are mostly positive. Sure it's a commitment afterward, but I think it will be a fun and interesting experience; one that will educate me in things other than medicine itself, and allow me to cope with and manage future situations in the private sector more effectively.

I've heard all of your same complaints before from residents and student doctors in the civilian field. It seems to me that, as I said before, attitude is the major contributing factor. Why did you take the HPSP scholarship at all if you didn't care to serve? Sounds like a shallow choice.

Don't get USUHS and the HPSP mixed up...the obligations and the compensations are different.

Is it possible that the posters on this forum with negative attitudes might once have had the same positive attitude about military medicine that you have now? Do you really think that they stupidly signed up with this "**** the military!" attitude? You know, many (if not all) of the con-military posters took the scholarships before resources like SDN were available to provide counterpoint to the recruiters' used-car salespitches. You have the luxury of their experience in helping you to make your decision; they did not, so I think your appraisal of their decision as "shallow" is unfair and undeserved.

Think long and hard about their experiences. It's possible that many of them were just like you at the start of their medical careers. Maybe after your time in service, you'll come to understand their point of view.

 

[USAFdoc]

Myself being engaged, and will be married before I matriculate, the opportunities that the armed services provide are mostly positive.

Why did you take the HPSP scholarship at all if you didn't care to serve? Sounds like a shallow choice.

being married, and especially if you have any children during your probable one time stint as a military doc (nearly all leave after one taste), those are even more reasons for you NOT to join!! I do not understand your logic that giving up ALL your freedom regarding location and work hours, not to mention, nearly all control of your practice, puts you in a better situation regarding you or your family. Now the military does need you, especially with them already chasing off most all the doctors who were in. If you are intent on serving no matter what, God bless and serve well.

and your quote about "shallow choice" is just that, very shallow on your part. 👎

 

[militarymd]

Myself being engaged, and will be married before I matriculate, the opportunities that the armed services provide are mostly positive.
.

opportunity to live thousands of miles away from your wife?

Go for it....It was great for me for 4+ years....my seminal vesicle wedge pressure hit all time highs......I should write it up as a case report.

 

[USAFdoc]

FYI;
discussion roundtable on GME

note the discussion about failing to fill HPSP slots already and the crisis on GME.
http://www.usminstitute.org/content/GMEexecsumm2.pdf

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I took those figures out of the USUHS handbook.

I'm applying to medical schools right now, considering going to USUHS (one of 17 choices I have) because it sounds like a good opportunity. I'm trying to gather as much information as I can about the life after USUHS; and after reading this thread and the "con" threads as well, I can't honestly say that you're experiencing things that other student doctors and new doctors don't. Why do you think that moonlighting is so popular? Would a doctor with a family moonlight just because it's so peachy and fun? Or is it because they're underpaid. Why do residents get crappy cases and tons of paperwork? Is it because they ask for it, or because the powers-that-be are making them?

Myself being engaged, and will be married before I matriculate, the opportunities that the armed services provide are mostly positive. Sure it's a commitment afterward, but I think it will be a fun and interesting experience; one that will educate me in things other than medicine itself, and allow me to cope with and manage future situations in the private sector more effectively.

I've heard all of your same complaints before from residents and student doctors in the civilian field. It seems to me that, as I said before, attitude is the major contributing factor. Why did you take the HPSP scholarship at all if you didn't care to serve? Sounds like a shallow choice.

You are deciding about USUHS among seventeen choices? You can't mean seventeen acceptances open at this point in the year. What exactly do you mean? I can't believe you are serious. That sounds incredibly disorganized and unfocused. You really should have your list coned-in on a smaller number, perhaps half that.

So you aren't a doctor, or even a medical student, and you haven't worked in medicine either in or out of the service, but you think yourself well-informed enough to weigh in on these pages with what, criticism of the opinions of those who post here and who have been there and done that?
Well, your post is good for a laugh, if nothing more.

By the way, if you think the USUHS deal is so good and the military deal is so much superior, what about those other sixteen options? You are mighty defensive about USUHS, to the point of being disparaging of the other sixteen choices you say you are considering. Are you really an applicant? And what is the basis of your opinion that the military is worthwhile because you are going to have fun and interesting things to do once you finish medical school?

 

[James Sonne]

USUHS is my number one choice at this point, out of the seventeen medical schools to which I am applying. I'm not dead set on it, hence me reading all of these opinions. I have friends that are now in residency, and they have the same complaints that you do. I fail to see how your situation is drastically different. I don't plan on going career military, mind you. I simply understand, from a derth of opinions, that one will bare difficulties in the early years of a medical career; and I don't see that your medical experience is exceptionally more dreadful when compared to others'. Sure your experience of civilian medicine is great, but you've already passed that critical point at which you are no longer green, can claim years of experience, and can choose your own practice or place of employment. A civilian doctor just starting off won't have that vast array of options, just as you experienced when you began serving your commitment.

So, by going into the USUHS (or HPSP to a lesser extent), I already guarantee myself of my first job instead of applying out of residency. I would probably have to work for 7 or so years out of residency as a civilian to earn enough money to build a house and a practice of my choosing. From my understanding, only about 10% of the residencies and deployments in the armed services are unaccompanied. An important factor to me would be how many months you have been in an unaccompanied deployment while serving your commitment, and residency.

 

[alpha62]

This ain't the cold war any more. Those days are over. No more camping out in Germany or Japan with the wife, the kids, and the house frau.

You stay in this 20 year, hell 6 or 7 years with whats to come, you won't stay married.

I've seen the guys that have "supportive wives" That love is measured in kilograms and total body fat %.

opportunity to live thousands of miles away from your wife?

Go for it....It was great for me for 4+ years....my seminal vesicle wedge pressure hit all time highs......I should write it up as a case report.

 

[FutureDocHopefl]

chest,

It's just money.....you can always make more of it.....you can't make up lost time with your family.

You'll be a "doctor"....you'll always be able to get loans....


or you could be an "officer"...and always be ordered around by someone of higher rank...usually a nurse.

If you're worried about being in debt for years upon years, don't become a physician. There is always someone behind you that is more than willing to take on the debt to do what they've always wanted to do.

 

[alpha62]

If you're worried about the debt and still want the ID card, then PHS has GOT to be a better deal.

They have flight surgeons, work with coast guard. My only concern is that, eventually, they're going to start picking them off too for deployments.

If you're worried about being in debt for years upon years, don't become a physician. There is always someone behind you that is more than willing to take on the debt to do what they've always wanted to do.

 

[Galo]

USUHS is my number one choice at this point, out of the seventeen medical schools to which I am applying. I'm not dead set on it, hence me reading all of these opinions. I have friends that are now in residency, and they have the same complaints that you do. I fail to see how your situation is drastically different. I don't plan on going career military, mind you. I simply understand, from a derth of opinions, that one will bare difficulties in the early years of a medical career; and I don't see that your medical experience is exceptionally more dreadful when compared to others'. Sure your experience of civilian medicine is great, but you've already passed that critical point at which you are no longer green, can claim years of experience, and can choose your own practice or place of employment. A civilian doctor just starting off won't have that vast array of options, just as you experienced when you began serving your commitment.

So, by going into the USUHS (or HPSP to a lesser extent), I already guarantee myself of my first job instead of applying out of residency. I would probably have to work for 7 or so years out of residency as a civilian to earn enough money to build a house and a practice of my choosing. From my understanding, only about 10% of the residencies and deployments in the armed services are unaccompanied. An important factor to me would be how many months you have been in an unaccompanied deployment while serving your commitment, and residency.

Oh, the bliss of being ingnorant. James you have this so backwards its not even funny. If you are so serious about the military, nothing anybody says will change your mind. But you are going in with assumptions that are totally flawed.

I've said my piece about GME, staying current as a surgeon, not having admin support, having to deal with *****S on a constant basis, (Leadership *****s), but I have not emphasixed much about money.

As a surgeon coming out of training, depending on where you CHOOSE to live, you can make more than 200K, and exponentially after that. The contract I signed for last year was worth more money than I made in 4.5 yrs in the military. It may be a slightly less wider margin for family practice, peds, etc, but much wider for most surgical subspecialties, anesthesia, ob, cards, etc

Or you can choose to go where you're told, when you're told, and not necessarily with your family.

You need to wisen up, listen up, and if you still choose it, it must have been meant for you.

Good luck

 

[orbitsurgMD]

USUHS is my number one choice . . . So, by going into the USUHS (or HPSP to a lesser extent), I already guarantee myself of my first job instead of applying out of residency. I would probably have to work for 7 or so years out of residency as a civilian to earn enough money to build a house and a practice of my choosing. From my understanding, only about 10% of the residencies and deployments in the armed services are unaccompanied. An important factor to me would be how many months you have been in an unaccompanied deployment while serving your commitment, and residency.

First things first. Don't worry about getting a job just out of residency. I doubt that will be a problem, and you will be able to seek and apply for jobs well before finishing. If demographic trends are any indicator of future opportunities for civilian doctors, you should have no problem finding something you like in almost any specialty. But that for you is a long way off. If you go civilian, at least eight years from now; if you go military, probably longer, assuming they will not have shaken their addiction to the GMO monkey, which you may be required to feed.

Medical school is only the beginning of your training; you should see the process as including the residency training that you should also want to complete. As things stand, your chances of getting into a good choice of a residency training program--what will set the course for your professional practice--are far broader and deeper on the civilian side than in any military program. You need to see the military accession and training programs as what they have become, and not what you would wish them to be, or as the services would like you to see them. They are first and largely a feedlot for producing GMOs; the production of trained physicians is a relatively minor part of their enterprise, and is secondary in priority to the first.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Go for it....It was great for me for 4+ years....my seminal vesicle wedge pressure hit all time highs......I should write it up as a case report.

Now, that I would like to see....hell I'd almost coauthor the damn case report

MilitaryMD, Murphy DK: Severe cerulean testicle syndrome as demonstrated by elevated seminal vesicle wedge pressure.

The NEJM would snap that up in a heartbeat.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

From my understanding, only about 10% of the residencies and deployments in the armed services are unaccompanied. An important factor to me would be how many months you have been in an unaccompanied deployment while serving your commitment, and residency.

Most deployments are unaccompanied- in fact I've never heard of anyone taking their spouse with them to Iraq, Kuwait, or one of the 'Stans. It's the places they make your permanent party to that you might have a chance of taking your wife along.

I'm sorry, but I originally just thought you were young and misguided because of your own ignorance. Now I'm beginning to think that you may well, in fact, be f--king stupid.

 

[NavyFP]

"From my understanding, only about 10% of the residencies and deployments in the armed services are unaccompanied. An important factor to me would be how many months you have been in an unaccompanied deployment while serving your commitment, and residency."


There is a definate lack of understanding in this post.

1) No residencies are unaccompanied. Period.
2) All deployments are unaccompanied. Period.

Are there operational jobs where you can take your family? Sure, but when it comes time to deploy they stay behind. There are also overseas billets where you cannot take your family. These are typically 12-18 months.

Deployments for the Army are currently 13 months (with 12 in theatre) Navy is 7 months (6 in theater) and AF is 3-6 months.

I can't speak for Army or AF, but about 10% of Navy medicine is deployed at any given time these days. If you join, expect to deploy.

 

[alpha62]

When the Army 1CAV division got the warning order for deployment in 2003, I was told, 18 months in Iraq. That was a deal breaker for me. I got out.

I did 1 year in Korea, but the prospect of 18 months deployment unreasonable. I wasn't buying that "national emergency" crap until the rest of the country bought it too.

You go into the army, you'll be deployed very often and they like to extend deployments at the last minute.

On the way back from Korea, the plane landed in Guam and they were picking people right off and sending them back to Korea after they had already did the year, turned in the gear and out processed.

"From my understanding, only about 10% of the residencies and deployments in the armed services are unaccompanied. An important factor to me would be how many months you have been in an unaccompanied deployment while serving your commitment, and residency."


There is a definate lack of understanding in this post.

1) No residencies are unaccompanied. Period.
2) All deployments are unaccompanied. Period.

Are there operational jobs where you can take your family? Sure, but when it comes time to deploy they stay behind. There are also overseas billets where you cannot take your family. These are typically 12-18 months.

Deployments for the Army are currently 13 months (with 12 in theatre) Navy is 7 months (6 in theater) and AF is 3-6 months.

I can't speak for Army or AF, but about 10% of Navy medicine is deployed at any given time these days. If you join, expect to deploy.

 

[James Sonne]

Thanks NavyFP, that's the kind of information I have been seeking. I have been planning on making the Air Force my preference at USUHS. Of course I expect to deploy, but I was under the impression that it was more likely that I would be in Germany at the AFB or some such thing and deployed for a period of months (which I suppose you verified), and I've been told that those are accompanied. I've read a PDF that listed locations and length of "deployment" (not sure if that's the right term), and only a handful were listed as unaccompanied. I wouldn't want to bring my wife along to the Middle East, although it is statistically a safer place than Chicago. I've also been told by others currently in military residency that some residencies are unaccompanied.

I'm not worried about the money, I just think it would be nice. And as I said before, I'm not "gungho" about military. I just think it would be a fun experience.

I just love it how you all are completely lambasting me when you claim you're trying to "save me". Thanks for deciding I'm "f--king stupid" and "ingnorant" [sic] after my third post on this forum. I'm seeking information about the systemic nature of military medicine, including the likely hood of being stationed in an unaccompanied conus (I believe that's the right term), and what kind of experience residency is in terms of where one goes, how it is different from civilian residency, and what the major differences in education are. I've seen statistics that state military doctors receive higher scores on board certification tests, and are more likely to get better jobs after their service is completed. I honestly don't care about how terrible you thought your life was while serving or any of your other subjective analyses, as those experiences point more toward your attitude while there than anything else. Some people are actually able to be optimistic, or not live their entire lives inside a small, undermanned clinic with misguided bureaucracies in charge.

 

[alpha62]

The military was "fun" until Sept 11 2001 or Nov 2000 when GW was elected. Peacetime was "fun". A well run military under good leadership, like President Reagan was "fun".

Now it just sucks, people are dying and with over 14,000 wounded it's just what it was always intended to be... a long, hard slog.

Thanks NavyFP, that's the kind of information I have been seeking. I have been planning on making the Air Force my preference at USUHS. Of course I expect to deploy, but I was under the impression that it was more likely that I would be in Germany at the AFB or some such thing, and I've been told that those are accompanied. I've read a PDF that listed locations and length of "deployment" (not sure if that's the right term), and only a handful were listed as unaccompanied. I wouldn't want to bring my wife along to the Middle East, although it is statistically a safer place than Chicago. I've also been told by others currently in military residency that some residencies are unaccompanied.

I'm not worried about the money, I just think it would be nice. And as I said before, I'm not "gungho" about military. I just think it would be a fun experience.

I just love it how you all are completely lambasting me when you claim you're trying to "save me". Thanks for deciding I'm "f--king stupid" and "ingnorant" [sic] after my third post on this forum. I'm seeking information about the systemic nature of military medicine, including the likely hood of being stationed in an unaccompanied conus (I believe that's the right term), and what kind of experience residency is in terms of where one goes, how it is different from civilian residency, and what the major differences in education are. I've seen statistics that state military doctors receive higher scores on board certification tests, and are more likely to get better jobs after their service is completed.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I just love it how you all are completely lambasting me when you claim you're trying to "save me". Thanks for deciding I'm "f--king stupid" and "ingnorant" [sic] after my third post on this forum. I'm seeking information about the systemic nature of military medicine, including the likely hood of being stationed in an unaccompanied conus (I believe that's the right term), and what kind of experience residency is in terms of where one goes, how it is different from civilian residency, and what the major differences in education are. I've seen statistics that state military doctors receive higher scores on board certification tests, and are more likely to get better jobs after their service is completed. I honestly don't care about how terrible you thought your life was while serving or any of your other subjective analyses, as those experiences point more toward your attitude while there than anything else. Some people are actually able to be optimistic, or not live their entire lives inside a small, undermanned clinic with misguided bureaucracies in charge.

Ignorance is simply not knowing any better. Stupidity is what one demonstrates when they are corrected and refuse to admit they are wrong. F--king stupidity is when they are demonstrating stupidity that could cost them their life, or their marriage. I stand behind my assessment. It's not a matter of being "optimistic", because I was when I went in, but even you will find yourself agreeing with us once you realize how much you are currently deluding yourself.

 

[Croooz]

I'm not worried about the money, I just think it would be nice. And as I said before, I'm not "gungho" about military. I just think it would be a fun experience.

Might be for you but you're married. What kind of experience does she want? Is she a professional of any kind? Will she be able to find gainful employment regardless of where you're stationed? Is seperation a problem for her? Will she be okay with raising your children while your on deployment experiencing the "fun"? Will she have a problem with the housing rules? Will your kids enjoy moving every 3-4 years? Will she?

how it is different from civilian residency, and what the major differences in education are. I've seen statistics that state military doctors receive higher scores on board certification tests, and are more likely to get better jobs after their service is completed.

I'm confused with not being preoccupied with money in one paragraph and then making a statement such as this. You are claiming that a civilian graduate after 14-16 years of practice is less likely to get a better job than a military person after 14-16 years in the military? Where does that statistic come from? The military? Those data don't make any sense nor can they come to those conclusions. Who did they pool? Newly trained residency grads vs military docs who've been in their specialty for 4-6 years?

I honestly don't care about how terrible you thought your life was while serving or any of your other subjective analyses, as those experiences point more toward your attitude while there than anything else. Some people are actually able to be optimistic, or not live their entire lives inside a small, undermanned clinic with misguided bureaucracies in charge.

You can view the lack of funds, personnel, training, and optempo as optmistic as you'd like. The truth is how will you deal with it yourself. Present figures of practicing military physicians who retire from the military who were not prior service. Compare that to those who enter the service and the number who get out should tell you something. Forget what is posted here. Look at those data and then tell me what you think that means.

Your assumption is you know better. You know it can't possibly be as bad as what "they" say. The problem is you're willing to bet your life and that of your family because of money. Lest we forget the data you started on were how much USUHS makes financial sense. Then you claim it's not about the money but the fun & experience. I tell you, it will be fun at times and there is no experience like the military. However the civilian world will be fun at times and the patients you will see as a civilian are far more diverse than the military and then there's that pesky money thing.

Some people prefer to see healthy, non-HIV, patients who come to the ER with complaints of "PFT coming up and my leg hurts". There BS on either side of the fence. I've experienced in the military. All things being equal I'll take the money as a civilian combined with being able to see my family over the military.

Not worth it to me. I've BTDT. Now it's your turn. Go have fun & experience all the military has to offer. Then come on back and enlighten us as to what we could have done differently to have had your great experience.

 

[USAFdoc]

some quotes from an interview with the Navy Surgeon General; the article, in my opinion, hits the nail on the head in the following quote;

This sense of commitment is essential, agreed Dr. Nelson, adding that the perception that military medicine is becoming "more businesslike, more like a civilian HMO" can lead physicians to ask themselves why they should stay in a system that’s like civilian medicine but doesn’t pay as well.

In my opinion, military medicine (Primary Care) had adopted the WORST aspects of civilian medicine and removed many of the best aspects of military medicine, leaving doctors, staff, and patients with the worst of BOTH WORLDS.

more exerps below;

Operating With Insufficient Funds
Dr. Nelson said he had no idea when he was named to become surgeon general that dealing with the issue of resources "would consume almost all of my time and energy," with the projected deficit for the Defense Health Program over the next five years in excess of $6 billion.

"The two years I’ve been here have been very difficult from a financial standpoint," he advised. "We’ve not been able to give the assurances to our commanding officers and our clinicians that we would forward-fund programs that would give them a jump-start on some of the changes we need to make." Dr. Nelson said he does keep a "little pot of money" to fund small projects that offer "payoff" a year or two later, but budget restraints prohibit any wider-spread initiation of such projects. "Last year was a bad year; this year, we’re coming to a close on probably even a worse year; and at this point, I’m not convinced that next year will be any better," he said. One of his major concerns, he added, is that the Military Health System is committed to paying its TriCare contractors first, "and leaving what’s left over to the MTFs."

General Medical Officers
While Congress has directed the demise of the general medical officer on grounds that modern care requires a higher level of training in the field, Dr. Nelson disagrees with this policy. It’s an issue he took up when he became surgeon general: "When I tried to look at the data that said we need to do away with GMOs, I couldn’t find any data that my predecessors in DoD medicine had collected."

Consequently, he asked for a study, by his Medical Corps office, of the requirement for GMOs, number of billets currently devoted to GMOs and whether other types of providers could fill those billets. He also asked those commanders who "owned" GMO billets to "rate" the physicians filling them. "We found that for about roughly 500 of our GMO billets, the GMO is the appropriate level," he related. A subsequent analysis of adverse actions found no "quality" issues related to GMOs’ newness to the practice of medicine.

"The outcome was, there is no clear justification in the Marine Corps or the Navy for doing away with GMOs, based on performance," he said. "We’re continuing to study that, and we’re waiting to see the final outcome of the [advisory committee] commissioned by Congress to take a look at quality." (That committee’s report is now being drafted.)

 

[Croooz]

xUSAFdoc,
How old is that article? VADM Arthur replaced Nelson some time ago.

 

[USAFdoc]

xUSAFdoc,
How old is that article? VADM Arthur replaced Nelson some time ago.

I beleive from about 2001. When I read it, his desription of the problems I saw in USAF Primary Care years 2002-2005, was right on target. One of the most frustrating things I experienced in my USAF career was that there were serious problems, people knew about them, and NOBODY with any power to fix the problems moved on them. In addition, many people fed "lies" up the chain of command stating that things were better than they were.

 

[alpha62]

This is how Iraq started.

This is and will be, a problem as long as careerism is the driving force in a standing all volunteer military.

I beleive from about 2001. When I read it, his desription of the problems I saw in USAF Primary Care years 2002-2005, was right on target. One of the most frustrating things I experienced in my USAF career was that there were serious problems, people knew about them, and NOBODY with any power to fix the problems moved on them. In addition, many people fed "lies" up the chain of command stating that things were better than they were.

 

[alpha62]

Maybe that is part of the problem, asking non-medical line officers to judge the abilities and the efficacy of their medical officers.

I got detailed to back fill for a unit. The commander thought the medical officer in that unit was the greatest thing since canned beer. The medical officer liked to play Rambo, kept everybody in the unit regardless of their physical condition.

I spent the first two weeks of that detail cleaning up and working up tons of deferred care. Of course, that made me the bearer of bad news, so in reality I wasn't much of a "team player"

some quotes from an interview with the Navy Surgeon General; the article, in my opinion, hits the nail on the head in the following quote;

This sense of commitment is essential, agreed Dr. Nelson, adding that the perception that military medicine is becoming "more businesslike, more like a civilian HMO" can lead physicians to ask themselves why they should stay in a system that’s like civilian medicine but doesn’t pay as well.

In my opinion, military medicine (Primary Care) had adopted the WORST aspects of civilian medicine and removed many of the best aspects of military medicine, leaving doctors, staff, and patients with the worst of BOTH WORLDS.

more exerps below;

Operating With Insufficient Funds
Dr. Nelson said he had no idea when he was named to become surgeon general that dealing with the issue of resources "would consume almost all of my time and energy," with the projected deficit for the Defense Health Program over the next five years in excess of $6 billion.

"The two years I’ve been here have been very difficult from a financial standpoint," he advised. "We’ve not been able to give the assurances to our commanding officers and our clinicians that we would forward-fund programs that would give them a jump-start on some of the changes we need to make." Dr. Nelson said he does keep a "little pot of money" to fund small projects that offer "payoff" a year or two later, but budget restraints prohibit any wider-spread initiation of such projects. "Last year was a bad year; this year, we’re coming to a close on probably even a worse year; and at this point, I’m not convinced that next year will be any better," he said. One of his major concerns, he added, is that the Military Health System is committed to paying its TriCare contractors first, "and leaving what’s left over to the MTFs."

General Medical Officers
While Congress has directed the demise of the general medical officer on grounds that modern care requires a higher level of training in the field, Dr. Nelson disagrees with this policy. It’s an issue he took up when he became surgeon general: "When I tried to look at the data that said we need to do away with GMOs, I couldn’t find any data that my predecessors in DoD medicine had collected."

Consequently, he asked for a study, by his Medical Corps office, of the requirement for GMOs, number of billets currently devoted to GMOs and whether other types of providers could fill those billets. He also asked those commanders who "owned" GMO billets to "rate" the physicians filling them. "We found that for about roughly 500 of our GMO billets, the GMO is the appropriate level," he related. A subsequent analysis of adverse actions found no "quality" issues related to GMOs’ newness to the practice of medicine.

"The outcome was, there is no clear justification in the Marine Corps or the Navy for doing away with GMOs, based on performance," he said. "We’re continuing to study that, and we’re waiting to see the final outcome of the [advisory committee] commissioned by Congress to take a look at quality." (That committee’s report is now being drafted.)

 

[Homunculus]

I'm sorry, but I originally just thought you were young and misguided because of your own ignorance. Now I'm beginning to think that you may well, in fact, be f--king stupid.

alright, let's dial things down a notch. no need to call people misguided and ignorant.

seriously though-- f-bomb's are ok when appropriate, but that was kinda weak and inappropriate.

--your friendly neighborhood calming the rabble caveman

 

[Blue4788]

I have no idea of numbers/stats but isn't the U.S. Military low on soldiers? (Can you tell I never discuss politics? 😴 )

I'm still waiting for The Draft 2007.

I've seen the guys that have "supportive wives" That love is measured in kilograms and total body fat %.

Yeah- my Generation is mostly known for being spoiled and leeching off the sacrifices and culture of past generations. We have our up's and down's.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

alright, let's dial things down a notch. no need to call people misguided and ignorant.

seriously though-- f-bomb's are ok when appropriate, but that was kinda weak and inappropriate.

--your friendly neighborhood calming the rabble caveman

Sorry....I'll tone it down.

 

[USAFdoc]

FYI; other/more Military Medical Closures on the Horizon?

Lawmakers concerned about closures of medical facilities
By Roxana Tiron


With hundreds of injured soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, some lawmakers are concerned that some of the U.S. military’s medical facilities and universities may be targeted by the impending base realignment and closure process.

Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.), at a Defense Appropriations Subcommittee hearing yesterday, said she was worried about the Uniformed Services University of Health Services (USU) and Walter Reed Army Medical Center’s being “rumored of closing.” USU is based in Bethesda, Md.

USU is the only U.S. military medical school that trains physicians and advanced-practice nurses and has a large graduate education program, according to USU spokesman Peter Esker.

“We should not close the USU,” urged Mikulski.

USU officials are familiar with the rumors of a closing but said they “can’t speculate whether or not they will be closed,” Esker said. “We provide great value to the nation. We appreciate Senator Mikulski’s concern and support.”

Walter Reed calls itself the “clinical center of gravity” for military medicine. The hospital did not return calls by press time. Walter Reed maintains 40 medical-specialties programs, said Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley, the surgeon general of the Army.

“It is the linchpin for medical professionals,” he said in testimony in front of the subcommittee, chaired by Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska).

Ongoing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq and contributions to natural disasters, such as the South Asian tsunami relief, are taking a toll on military medical personnel. More than half of the members of the military medical corps are on their second, or even third, deployment in the past few years.

While the Army is reaching its goals with enlisted combat medics, it is facing shortages in recruitment and retention in the professional medical corps. The Army is close to 200 physicians and 200 nurses short, Kiley said. “There is a nationwide shortage of nurses,” he said in testimony in front of the subcommittee yesterday.

He said recruitment and retention of both physicians and nurses is a “mixed picture” that the Army is watching closely. “We do not have the final answers, but I am concerned,” he added.

In the face of the rumored closing of USU, Mikulski, along with Stevens and Sen. Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii), wanted confirmation that military medical officers are trained in the military’s medical system. According to Kiley, they are.

Stevens urged the services to give Congress their plan for how to entice physicians to join the military so that lawmakers could financially support it. “We’ll call it the Barbara Mikulski plan,” he said jokingly.

The Defense Department and lawmakers need to take another look at scholarship programs, Mikulski said. The Department of Veterans Affairs can pay its physicians more than the Pentagon, she said. The Defense Department is competing for manpower not only with civilian academic centers of excellence but also with Veterans Affairs, she added.

For the Army in particular, a series of initiatives is creating temporary and permanent population changes on installations. These are pre- and post-deployment health issues related to the war on terrorism, training-base expansion and BRAC 2005, the base realignment and closure process, Kiley said.

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Business/051105_lawmakers.html

 

[Croooz]

Lawmakers concerned about closures of medical facilities
By Roxana Tiron

Maybe changes are coming.....or maybe Mikulski is looking for some press. Inouye has been at the forefront of keeping USU open and now Mikulski....I don't buy it.

Why concern of WRAMC closing down? Shouldn't they know...they put it on the BRAC list and now it's merging with NNMC. It's not as if this should be news to them.

 

[deegs]

Maybe changes are coming.....or maybe Mikulski is looking for some press. Inouye has been at the forefront of keeping USU open and now Mikulski....I don't buy it.

Why concern of WRAMC closing down? Shouldn't they know...they put it on the BRAC list and now it's merging with NNMC. It's not as if this should be news to them.

They DO know..... the article is over a year old. All these matters were sorted out last summer.

USAFdoc: there are a plethora of issues to take up with military medicine. is it really necessay to create new ones through a nifty bit of yellow journalism?

 

[jsnuka]

I doubt that USUHS will ever close. I would wager that there is a greater likelihood of a another camnpus opening up in TX given the BRAC recommendations for facilities in that area.