Awkward situation

[BlackScorpion]

Here's an awkward situation that occured at a party I attended recently. A CRNA with a Phd from a different field was introducing herself as a doctor. A group of physicians arrived at the party. The host introduced the CRNA PhD individual to the group.

"Here is Dr. ____, she works at _____"

An internist asks, "What specialty, are you in?"

"Anesthesia" The CRNA replies

"Oh, what med school did you go to?" asked another MD.

"Oh, I didn't go to med school" replied the CRNA

Look of confusion blankets the physician group.

"I'm a nurse anesthetist" confessed the CRNA

"Oh you're a nurse" said one of the engineers.

Awkward silence follows.

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[zippy2u]

Don't concern yourself with minutiae--- is she a hottie and is she available. ---Zip

 

[VentdependenT]

I hope there was decent beer there and some bootie grinding beats.

 

[Monty Python]

Here's an awkward situation that occured at a party I attended recently. A CRNA with a Phd from a different field was introducing herself as a doctor. A group of physicians arrived at the party. The host introduced the CRNA PhD individual to the group.

(snip)

"I'm a nurse anesthetist" confessed the CRNA

"Oh you're a nurse" said one of the engineers.

Awkward silence follows.

1. Technically the CRNA/PhD should have introduced herself as a nurse anesthetist with an academic doctorate or something to that effect. Lawyers with a JD don't usually introduce themselves as Dr. Smith.

2. The CRNA/PhD should have followed long-established custom, which says doctorate salutations should be limited to academic settings.

3. Pride goes before the fall.

 

[The_Sensei]

Don't concern yourself with minutiae--- is she a hottie and is she available. ---Zip

The ONLY two questions I would have been contemplating.....

 

[UTSouthwestern]

Similar to the situation I posted about last year that happened to a neurosurgeon colleague of mine. Daughter was treated by an NP/PhD who introduced herself in the ER as "Dr. XXX".

 

[Noyac]

Similar to the situation I posted about last year that happened to a neurosurgeon colleague of mine. Daughter was treated by an NP/PhD who introduced herself in the ER as "Dr. XXX".

UT, what ever happened with that case?

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Have a PhD/NP in our hospital who gets totally pissed if the med students don't refer to her as "Dr. ___". FWIW, the actual MD's in the same clinic pretty much all said for us to call them by their first names.

 

[johankriek]

Don't concern yourself with minutiae--- is she a hottie and is she available. ---Zip

theyre all available in some way shape or form..

 

[SleepIsGood]

Have a PhD/NP in our hospital who gets totally pissed if the med students don't refer to her as "Dr. ___". FWIW, the actual MD's in the same clinic pretty much all said for us to call them by their first names.

Totally inappropriate for her to make you call her "doctor" in a clinical setting. Call her Ms/Mrs whatever. Unless you're a nursing student in a university. Otherwise only PHYSICIANs should be called "doctor" in a hospital/med school.

If these nurses want to have their egos stroked, then have their own nursing students do that. You guys (med students) shouldnt be the ones doing it

 

[Stimulate]

Have a PhD/NP in our hospital who gets totally pissed if the med students don't refer to her as "Dr. ___". FWIW, the actual MD's in the same clinic pretty much all said for us to call them by their first names.

I wouldn't refer to a PhD in any setting as doctor. Certainly residents and medical students should not be calling NPs "doctor".

If we don't take a stand as a medical community about this issue it is going to become standard and acceptable for this type of fraud to occur.

In the hospital setting, a doctor of philosophy recipient should NEVER be referred to as doctor. If you have a PhD and you want to introduce yourself as "doctor x" then you should qualify that you are not a medical doctor. Impersonating a physician is a crime. Suggest to an attending that they talk with the nurse and if that doesn't work you could contact your local prosecutor and have them look into the matter.

Finally, at my institution we have many medical students who are PhDs and nobody calls them "doctor" (even though as med students we were often called "student doctor" in front of patients).

 

[UTSouthwestern]

UT, what ever happened with that case?

The last I heard was that he filed complaints with the hospital, state medical and nursing boards, and has thus far just gotten his bill from the hospital waved off.

He has not filed a lawsuit formally as of yet. He did receive a message from the state nursing board to the effect that the practitioner in question was within her rights to refer to herself as "doctor" as she does have a doctoral degree, to which he sent a very angry and terse reply that she does not in a clinical setting when the address clearly can (intentionally or unintentionally) confuse a patient and constitute the crime of impersonating a physician.

The hospital stated that the practitioner was reprimanded but no info on how that was done or whether or not she was told to stop introducing herself as "doctor" and stop wearing the labcoat with "Dr. XXX".

 

[SleepIsGood]

I wouldn't refer to a PhD in any setting as doctor. Certainly residents and medical students should not be calling NPs "doctor".

If we don't take a stand as a medical community about this issue it is going to become standard and acceptable for this type of fraud to occur.

In the hospital setting, a doctor of philosophy recipient should NEVER be referred to as doctor. If you have a PhD and you want to introduce yourself as "doctor x" then you should qualify that you are not a medical doctor. Impersonating a physician is a crime. Suggest to an attending that they talk with the nurse and if that doesn't work you could contact your local prosecutor and have them look into the matter.

Finally, at my institution we have many medical students who are PhDs and nobody calls them "doctor" (even though as med students we were often called "student doctor" in front of patients).

To original poster

I agree with the above. The nurse that wants to be called "doctor" in a clinical setting is a charlaton. Tell your attendings,etc. Tell your "higher ups". The angle you should take is that it's CONFUSING to patients and is missrepresenting to patients, especially in a clinical setting. Remember it's all about the patient.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Agree that it's TOTALLY misleading to the patients. They refer to her as Dr. ____, and it's clear they think she's an MD. The attendings and residents see her do this, however, and see her openly berate 'disrespectful' med students who don't call her Dr. ______, but don't seem to do anything about it. If you don't kiss her a$$, she has a great habit of 'forgetting' to tell you stuff you need to know (like the little detail that the attending is waiting on you in exam 29).

As a lowly med student, it seems like if my residents/attendings aren't going to say anything to her, I'm not in a position to do anything. She sucks, & I'm just glad my interactions with her are over.

 

[burntcrispy]

Unfortunately this is only going to get worse with the upcoming midlevel nurses pushing for the PhD. I'm not one to get offended when people want to call themselves doctor but it is definately inappropriate in the clinical setting. It is very misleading and should be seen as impersonating a physician. Hopefully the AMA has been made aware of the situation and is going to try to do something about it. If not, we need to write to them and make them aware what's going on.

Most patients do not understand PhD vs MD. Even if a nurse were to expain that they were a nurse practicioner/CRNA but had achieved a "doctorate" I believe most patients would equate this to an MD. Something needs to be done about this because obviously a nurse practicioner writing papers for 2 years on nursing theory doesn't equate to the scientific training and post graduate level of training that a physician has. It will be interesting to see what comes of this in the future but for some reason I have a bad feeling about what the outcome is going to be .

 

[Taurus]

Unfortunately this is only going to get worse with the upcoming midlevel nurses pushing for the PhD.

I think you meant the push by the nurses for the DNP and DNAP.

 

[burntcrispy]

I think you meant the push by the nurses for the DNP and DNAP.

Sorry, that's what I ment. I'm not sure what the difference is though. Sounds to me like its a way for them to call themselves "doctor" which unfortunately will give them more power politically. Most politicians seem to know very little to nothing about health care and how it runs. They will see this "doctor" of nursing as closer to physician level although the training is not similiar at all. My feeling is that the nurses are hoping/pushing for this to eventually end up as another medical provider considered physician level much like MD,DO,DDS, etc. Most of us realize how obsurd this is but that doesn't mean that it cannot happen. The best thing to do is to contribute to the ASA and AMA and voice your concerns to them about what is happening.

We indeed have some dark times and tough battles ahead. Everyone wants what the physician has without having to put in the work to obtain the proper knowledge. These people have great political power and are fighting with everything they have because they have nothing to lose. I'm not trying to be the "doom and gloom" guy here but that's just what seems to be going on. I know I've spoken with several NPs who believe they are "just as good" as a physician and openly state that they are wanting full independance from the physician. This isn't just CRNA vs MD but is going on all over healthcare. And, it seem what's bad for the other areas is only going to be bad for us as well. Contribute to the AMA and ASA, it's the best shot that we have.

 

[urgewrx]

Contribute to the AMA and ASA, it's the best shot that we have.

That's the wisest thing said on this thread.

 

[jwk]

Agree that it's TOTALLY misleading to the patients. They refer to her as Dr. ____, and it's clear they think she's an MD. The attendings and residents see her do this, however, and see her openly berate 'disrespectful' med students who don't call her Dr. ______, but don't seem to do anything about it. If you don't kiss her a$$, she has a great habit of 'forgetting' to tell you stuff you need to know (like the little detail that the attending is waiting on you in exam 29).

As a lowly med student, it seems like if my residents/attendings aren't going to say anything to her, I'm not in a position to do anything. She sucks, & I'm just glad my interactions with her are over.

I'm surprised your hospital doesn't have a policy against this.

 

[fval28]

I'm surprised your hospital doesn't have a policy against this.

Me too, I know most of the hospitals I trained at had PhD/RN's and none introduced themselves as Dr. My personal belief is you use the title of the job you are doing- a surgical tech who happens to be a MD from another country doesn't introduce themselves as Dr, whereas a PhD psychologist providing counseling services to patients in hospital setting should introduce themselves as Dr. Outside of the hospital, use your name, titles are for weenies.

 

[cfdavid]

While I think Dr. Nurse is the most ridiculous thing ever conceived, I have no problem calling my science PhD's Dr. Many work in collaboration with MD/PhD's on clinical research and are extremely valuable people w/r/t advancing medicine. I can't imagine NOT calling them Dr. X just because I ran into him/her in the hospital lobby versus the floor of the lecture hall.

However, non-MD/DO's should not be introducing themselves to NORMAL patients in the clinical setting (in contrast to a possible clinical research setting etc.). The DNP is just ludicrous and only too obvious.

 

[cubs3canes]

I hate the long white coat thing. MDs should be the only ones in the long coats. Nurses, CRNAs, social workers, and med students can wear short white coats.

I called a radiology tech doctor for 3 months before someone else told me he was a tech.

Unbelievable.

 

[rmh149]

I hate the long white coat thing. MDs should be the only ones in the long coats. Nurses, CRNAs, social workers, and med students can wear short white coats.

I called a radiology tech doctor for 3 months before someone else told me he was a tech.

Unbelievable.

Did you look at the name tag?

 

[jwk]

I hate the long white coat thing. MDs should be the only ones in the long coats. Nurses, CRNAs, social workers, and med students can wear short white coats.

I called a radiology tech doctor for 3 months before someone else told me he was a tech.

Unbelievable.

That's getting a little extreme.

 

[Trisomy13]

Did you look at the name tag?

Was there a name tag?

And perhaps more telling, why did the tech never correct the mistake?

I know why.

 

[rmh149]

Was there a name tag?

And perhaps more telling, why did the tech never correct the mistake?

I know why.

Yup, very dorky to not correct someone who calls you doctor when you are not. I guess he was having fun pretending.