AZCOM.......dirty little secrets

[EastWestN2grt]

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The allopathic downtown medical school and Kirksville's first classes start this fall which means you will compete with two additional medical schools for rotations.

Nope! You AZCOMites dont need to worry about us SOMAers competing for rotations--our rotations are already set for us at 11 Community Health Centers around the country. Although, there is one in Phoenix, but I doubt any medical schools had rotations there prior to us.

But still best of luck!!👍

 

[Azcomstud]

It is my understanding that now 3rd year students have to do at least 9 of their twelve rotations in state. We did have students that took off and did rotations all over the U.S. right after 2nd year. This was maybe a 3rd of our class and was a big draw to the school. As for us that did the majority of our rotations in Arizona, there are good rotations if you do your homework. I let the school set up all my rotations and then I changed them if I was not happy after researching evaluations by other students. THE SCHOOL WILL LET YOU DO THIS!!! AZCOM does have a lottery system where you submit your preferred choices to clinical ed. and for the most part you'll get your picks (this probably won't be the case once enrollment increases🙁 ). I think people are unaware that there are tons of good rotations in Arizona that are not in the lottery and that students can set them up themselves.

I do not agree with AZCOM's decision on limiting 3rd years. This was a huge positive for the school. The only reason that students doing out of state rotations did not do well on post rotational exams is because they did not have "help sheets" that local students would make and distribute to other students. Without those sheets, not many would pass AZCOM's ridiculous post rotational exams!! Add that to my negatives about AZCOM

 

[Sugar72]

Our success on the boards has nothing to do with the school. AZCOM's student body is responsible for it's success. 40% of each AZCOM class is comprised of Mormon students. Due to cultural and religious implications,Mormon students are generally more mature and thus are more disciplined since many are married and have children so they commit themselves to school 100%. For example, when other students are celebrating at a bar on Monday night after the morning exam that day, Mormon students are at home with their families and usually studying. In addition, a significant portion of our school come from California. They are students who couldn't get into the most competitive state medical schools in the country so they had to settle on AZCOM. These are students with 33+ MCATs who were rejected. They choose AZCOM because of it's proximity to California and it's slightly better reptuation than Touro and COMP. These are students who would have gotten into most allopathic programs in the south and midwest had they not had the misfortune of growing up in California.

Unbelievable. I am not mormon and I am not from California and I studied and got greater than 95 on both USMLE steps 1 and 2 and comlex levels 2and 3. The valedictorian in our class (2006) was not mormon or from California. Wow unbelievable.

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

Unbelievable. I am not mormon and I am not from California and I studied and got greater than 95 on both USMLE steps 1 and 2 and comlex levels 2and 3. The valedictorian in our class (2006) was not mormon or from California. Wow unbelievable.

I have to agree with you, and not the pro-mormon poster. I am mormon, and the other poster does mention some trends that you do see in mormon culture. However, I do not think that equates to mormons being better studiers or students than others. Your upbringing may give you some special insights and advantages, but in the end, ANYONE can do ANYTHING if they are willing to pay the price.
I am from Utah (Mormon capital of the world) and have seen plenty of slackers.

 

[bla_3x]

LOL I was taking you seriously until you said this!

Phoenix is growing by about 120,000 people a year, a significant portion of that geriatric. Area hospitals are adding 100's of new beds per yearto address a severe shortage of medical facilities and personnel. It's hard to believe that in this environment, AZCOM students will be lacking interesting rotation spots. OK maybe there are administrative issues with the school--every school has that--but they'll certainly overcome these problems.

OK, I just have to respond to this.
It's not hard to believe at all...I have just delt with this crap.

You could live in a city of 12000000 X 10^x with a hospital for every 500 people and this would do NOTHING to help you get quality rotations!
Its the fact that if only few of the docs want to teach (and even fewer of the hospitals want students there) then that will cause a problem, like the Phoenix valley. ALERT! you cannot learn all you need to in the clinic!!!!
The fact that there are precious few open TEACHING hospital spots available to us hurts, just a fact of life down here. Those who have done a rotation at JCL (rubber stamped teaching hospital) and then one at one of the real teaching places can vouch for the difference in quality education.

I am not going to get into the whole preceptor based thing. Just rest assured, the fact that there are plenty of hospitals and and endless supply of wonderfully comorbid pts out there certainly does not mean that we will get to reap those benefits from an educational standpoint.

 

[DocBR]

As an entering student at AZCOM, I find it extremely refreshing that so many current students have come to the defense of the school. When I read the OPs post I felt my entire body cringe as I thought "I hope I did not make a huge mistake." Aside from what has specifically been said, the simple fact that so many are defending AZCOM gives me relief.

Congrats to everyone for finishing up their current year, and to all my future classmates!

I look forward to meeting everyone in August.

I am back to feeling the cringe.

 

[lama]

Another 4th year here. Oh, the things I would love to say!!.... but cant. Must graduate first, must show restraint. Lets just say the OP is not far off. My cheerleading classmates are neglecting some very major points. Run kids... forget your $2K deposit and run far away.

 

[azcom09stud]

Unbelievable. I am not mormon and I am not from California and I studied and got greater than 95 on both USMLE steps 1 and 2 and comlex levels 2and 3. The valedictorian in our class (2006) was not mormon or from California. Wow unbelievable.

My comments about Mormon culture in no way suggests that students who are not Mormon cannot succeed. The only thing that is unbelievable is that you read into my post and came up with your own insecure conclusion.

I have to agree with you, and not the pro-mormon poster. I am mormon, and the other poster does mention some trends that you do see in mormon culture. However, I do not think that equates to mormons being better studiers or students than others.

Most Mormons in my class would disagree with you.The fact of the matter is that any student regardless of their faith will be better students if they are more mature and can't partake in many outside distractions. The majority of the Mormon students in our class have a great deal of responsibility outside of school so they are emotionally more mature and are forced to prioritizing. Those students will tend to be better students. This in no way states that every Mormon is an excellent student but lets apply a little common sense here and recognize the general trend.

 

[azcom09stud]

You newbies who are reading this should cringe and get out while you can. Look at the counterarguments to the points we made and they are rather weak. There are no specific points or facts to contradict what people have said.

For example, the whole "flexibility to set up your own rotations" is really a clever marketing tool to make a positive out of a negative situation. The reality is that Phoenix lacks enough teaching hospitals and ward based core rotation positions to satisfy every student who wants them. That is why there is a lottery. That is why the clinical directors will interview you first before they will grant you a ward based surgery rotation at Good Sam or OB/GYN rotation at Good Sam. Therefore, a student will have to set up his or her rotations if they want to acquire ward based rotations.

Sure, I suppose, we could all get on our hands and knees and thank clinical ed for not forcing all of its students to do pre-assigned preceptor based rotations within Phoenix but they are not stupid and they realize that would hurt the students and the school in the long-term.

Then there is this superficial attempt to somehow belittle these criticisms by suggesting that all medical students complain about their school which implies that these problems are shared by every medical school. I'm certain there are DO schools that are worse off than us and have a similar setup. However, there are also a significant number of osteopathic schools that do not have these problems and that should be noted.

A lot of the people responding are being defensive which is understandable so they don't necessarily have your best interest at heart. However, these pro-AZCOM students are not paying your tuition. When you arrive on campus and recognize that we were right after your first year, these pro-AZCOM students are not going to refund your money. Once you are here, you can't defend yourselves from the changes the school implements. They won't listen to you and they will keep hiking your tuition regardless of how your class feels about it.

Sure, our tone might be bitter but pay attention to the detail with which we write. The OP and myself have offerred very specific details that no one else has really refuted other than the vague: "All medical students complain about their school." Sorry but if I was reading this, that's not a good enough retort to the specific criticisms that have been presented.

If I were you guys, I would take a year off and reapply, do research, improve your MCAT whatever but don't come here. Like many people, I was fooled by the pretty campus, the matchlist and the board scores. The reality is that your board scores and ability to match i dependent upon you and not your school.

If anything the school hurts its students chances on the boards because they don't provide us with enough time to study. They make us to do a clinical orientation which starts June 18th so that forces students to take their boards by June 16th so that limits students by 2 weeks with just that action. In addition, they inundate with you so many worthless clinical classes in the Spring quarter that we don't have time to study for the boards becaue we were always cramming for some exam each monday or friday. I have so many classmates that had to extend their date to take the USMLE because they are not prepared because they haven't had enough time to study to take both the COMLEX and USMLE. So when I read about how this school prepares students for the boards, I have to laugh because it's the furthest thing from the truth. I'm actually going to do worse on the boards because of our school due to the fact they didn't give us any time to study for the darn things. .

 

[azcom09stud]

LOL I was taking you seriously until you said this!

Phoenix is growing by about 120,000 people a year, a significant portion of that geriatric. Area hospitals are adding 100's of new beds per yearto address a severe shortage of medical facilities and personnel. It's hard to believe that in this environment, AZCOM students will be lacking interesting rotation spots. OK maybe there are administrative issues with the school--every school has that--but they'll certainly overcome these problems.

Deans come and go--anyone in academia knows this--it's a tough job. "Medical school is what you make of it" still seems like the right attitude. It's unfortunate that some people didn't enjoy their medical education; I just hope they have what it takes to get through residency and the reality of medical practice.

Well I agree that it's silly to criticize the appointment of a new Dean and I wasn't doing that. But I just disagreed that our current one has exemplary academic credentials. Yes, but between you and I, who cares as long as she does her job well.

However, adding hospitals is one thing...adding teaching hospitals with residency programs is entirely different. That's a huge distinction that you failed to make thus your point is meaningless. Yes, I'm aware of a lot of hospitals that being built in the valley. Everyone knows that so you aren't saying anything that we aren't aware of. bla_3x offered a similar response above.

Medical school is what you make of it but it's also the responsibility of students to research their schools and make a wise decision in regards to selecting their school. Yes, all of us including myself should take some responsibility for not doing a better job researching our school. I was exactly like you, a naive and optimistic kid who thought people like me were just bitter until I started and realized 2 years later that they were right. There are some students that have that marine corps attitude in regards to "I will overcome all." I like that attitude and I hate complainers but there is a time and place to apply that attitude. When you are researching medical schools, you need to be selfish and whiny little Paris Hilton and make certain that you are being fairly compensated for your 41K tuition.You can apply the marine corps attitude later when you are doing your surgery rotation.

 

[theraball]

azcom09stud,

Then there is this superficial attempt to somehow belittle these criticisms by suggesting that all medical students complain about their school which implies that these problems are shared by every medical school. I'm certain there are DO schools that are worse off than us and have a similar setup. However, there are also a significant number of osteopathic schools that do not have these problems and that should be noted.

I would agree with you that it's rather dismissive to only say, "Oh, med students always complain" and leave it at that. But you seem to be implying--correct me if I'm wrong--that the AZCOM students who liked their program and said so both here and elsewhere did not have a valid experience compared to yours. I'm not trying to belittle your experiences, but I do wonder how you could have picked this school if it turned out to be such an inappropriate place for you, and maybe you should ask yourself--would you really have been happier somewhere else? I've talked to a fair number of AZCOM students and grads and never have I heard such bitterness and disappointment. It's as though we're talking about two different schools here.

I'm also curious--neither you nor the other bashers have mentioned whether you brought your concerns to the administration of the school and if so, how did they respond? The mark of a good educational institution is not that it's perfect right out of the box but that it is willing to listen to its students and adopt changes that improve the student experience. For example, the clinical course that cuts into board study time--that sounds like a dumb idea. AZCOM prides itself on board pass rates. Why would they try to hurt the students that way? What did the school say when you brought this up?

Regarding the OMM curriculum, the same physician has been running the program since the school began, and it has been growing steadily, bringing in residents from around the country. DOs I have spoken to have a high regard for the OMM program, and AZCOM students do very well on the OMM section of their boards. Based on this information, it's hard to believe that it's run poorly. Can you give any examples of how the course could be improved--and have your ideas been heard by the course director?

Thanks for engaging with us during this time when you are studying for your boards, and good luck!
-Therapy Ball

 

[Azcomstud]

Azcom09stud (I like your screen name by-the-way), don't you have boards to be studying for? If you didn't spend so much time here you might not be freaking out so much and scaring future students. You are probably one of those people who crammed for tests, would forget everything after the test and now are crapping your pants because you look back at the first 2 years and realize you didn't learn anything. Is that the school's fault?

None of your arguments are new. The school has pretty much had the same problems since it opened. Tuition has always increased ~2-3K a year and there has always been complaints about the lack of ward-based rotations. The only real new problems might be the new dean (we don't no if this is going to be bad for AZCOM yet), the fact that the school is adding 100 new students in the next couple of years and limiting 3rd year out-of-state rotations. The new students won't effect the next couple of classes all that much. When the class size reaches <200 students or so or when tuition gets so high that enrollment drops then yes AZCOM will go down hill, but until then not much is changing since we were there.

Reading my previous posts, I agree that I may come across as a complete AZCOM lover. I have just had mostly good experiences. Believe me that I have had problems as well. I mentioned specific ones in other posts, but, unlike others, I have also mentioned specific positive things about the school. I truly believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. I don't think it is fair for incoming students to only hear the negative, especially from people that haven't completed all four years yet. The 2 main things future/incoming students should look at when ultimately making a decision on where to go are:

1. students board preparation / board scores and
2. ultimately where their students are getting accepted for training after medical school.

Medical school should be the vehicle to accomplishing these. AZCOM must be doing something right.

 

[theraball]

However, adding hospitals is one thing...adding teaching hospitals with residency programs is entirely different. That's a huge distinction that you failed to make thus your point is meaningless. Yes, I'm aware of a lot of hospitals that being built in the valley. Everyone knows that so you aren't saying anything that we aren't aware of. bla_3x offered a similar response above.

OK you have a valid point. Not every new hospital means 25 new rotation spots. But doesn't it stand to reason that all of this expansion represents an opportunity for AZCOM and the other schools to develop new training programs? AT Still Univ won't be competing with AZCOM, and the new allopathic school will get its own hospital (sigh). It seems like there's plenty of room for expansion, even if the present administration is not taking advantage of it as you are implying.

 

[Sarikate]

Theraball and I are going to rage against the machine! One of my passions!!!

 

[azcom09stud]

OK you have a valid point. Not every new hospital means 25 new rotation spots. But doesn't it stand to reason that all of this expansion represents an opportunity for AZCOM and the other schools to develop new training programs? AT Still Univ won't be competing with AZCOM, and the new allopathic school will get its own hospital (sigh). It seems like there's plenty of room for expansion, even if the present administration is not taking advantage of it as you are implying.

The new allopathic school will be using several of the existing hospitals until it's own hospital is completed which will probably take 5 years to build at the earliest and I'm thinking it will take much longer than that realistically. Dr. O'hare, the director of clinical education, mentioned that Maricopa essentially told him their internal medicine spots would go to the new allopathic students when they arrived. This wasn't a public statement. It was an under-the-table type of discussion but the guy was being candid and didn't want to mislead him. We can't even do third year rotations at St. Joes because they already have some agreement with Creighton in addition to the U of A.

AZCOM is not going to develop new training programs. CCOM had a formal teaching hospital a decade ago and they shut it down for financial reasons. It's too expensive to build your own formal teaching hospital so AZCOM is not going to build one. Yes, ultimately, the state will try to create more residency programs but that will take a long time to establish.

Kirksville already has students that rotate here during their 3rd year clerkships. Have you looked at the residency appointments for local hospitals, aside from AZCOM and U of A, the majority of the other appointments are filled by Kirksville students and that's not a coincidence. What makes you think their sister school that they are building in Arizona has no desire to foster relationships and allow their students to rotate locally like AZCOM? Their current assistant dean, Dr. McWilliams, was the assistant dean at AZCOM for several years and was responsible developing many of the local rotation opportunities that AZCOM has. He is extremely adept at fostering relationships and you can be assured he was hired to do the same for AT Still. Don't believe anything that school tells you. They want a piece of the local market just like us. I wouldn't be suprised if your class competed with some AT Still students for 3 year opportunities regardless of what they are saying now.

 

[bla_3x]

Another 4th year here. Oh, the things I would love to say!!.... but cant. Must graduate first, must show restraint. Lets just say the OP is not far off. My cheerleading classmates are neglecting some very major points. Run kids... forget your $2K deposit and run far away.

Dear God I hope you don't think I am cheerleading for this place 😱

Someone mentioned the idea that "why did we choose to go here if there were x problems, yadda, yadda?"
It is simple, a lot of the really important problems are such that you just cannot fathom the gravity of the problem until your 3rd-4th year.
You entering students and msI-IIs will see. These things that seem trivial or seem like they can be worked with will prove to be as trying to you as they are to us.

And on the topic of have any of us brought our concerns to the admin....hahahhahahahhahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahah!...you'll see😉

 

[Sarikate]

And on the topic of have any of us brought our concerns to the admin....hahahhahahahhahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahah!...you'll see😉

Well, you've tried to "prepare" us, why not share your wealth of knowledge about your experiences talking to the administration?

 

[grinchick5]

Since AZCOM and CCOM are both run by MWU, I'm wondering if CCOM students can comment on any of the issues raised by the OP. Some of the OP's complaints are obviously school-specific (lack of in-state rotations, poor reputation among community physicians, etc.). Is the "money-making" mentality of which the OP complains, high faculty turn over, and the alleged lack of regard for students' best interests isolated to AZCOM or are they systemic throughout MWU?

 

[azcom09stud]

Azcom09stud (I like your screen name by-the-way), don't you have boards to be studying for? If you didn't spend so much time here you might not be freaking out so much and scaring future students. You are probably one of those people who crammed for tests, would forget everything after the test and now are crapping your pants because you look back at the first 2 years and realize you didn't learn anything. Is that the school's fault?

Yes, I was one of those students who crammed as were the rest of the 90% of our class. That comes with the territory when you have 1-2 exams each week. Sorry but not all of us could study 24/7 like you gunners. You can deny reality but in a program that offers multiple exams on a regular basis as opposed to offering them every 6-8 weeks like most medical schools, cramming is routine. And I'm sure you have crammed as well but seeing that your agenda is to defend the school, you will obviously deny ever doing so. And shouldn't you be taking some of your own medicine. How is a gunner like you wasting his time on a forum like this? Did we upset you to the degree that your pride took you away from your usual routine of reading al the time. I'm sorry for that.

Tuition has always increased ~2-3K a year and there has always been complaints about the lack of ward-based rotations.

But we didn't think the rise in tuition would be infinite. The complaints have always been there but there were also promised to alleviate the clinical rotation situation. There have been strides but we also know they will never truly fix it and the reality is that it will become worse once we lose positions to the ASU/UofA' students.

The new students won't effect the next couple of classes all that much. When the class size reaches <200 students or so or when tuition gets so high that enrollment drops then yes AZCOM will go down hill, but until then not much is changing since we were there.

You can't already see changes. Look how many popular professors have left and look who they were replaced by? Ask MS I's what they thought of the new head of physiology? Students in the anatomy lab are limited to dissecting once per week due to the increased class size. What's going to happen when they add another 30 students, are they going to dissect once every other week? Or better yet, are they going to eventually do what most Carribbean schools do in that they will just stare at glass encased pro-sections?

Reading my previous posts, I agree that I may come across as a complete AZCOM lover. I have just had mostly good experiences. Believe me that I have had problems as well. I mentioned specific ones in other posts, but, unlike others, I have also mentioned specific positive things about the school. I truly believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. I don't think it is fair for incoming students to only hear the negative, especially from people that haven't completed all four years yet.

Yes, you have mentioned positives and maybe we should mention more of those. At the same time, you have purposefully denied the obvious criticisms that students have raised or have yet to really endorse those criticisms which are valid. I've had great experiences at AZCOM but mostly because I love my classmates and formed life long friends, you are probably one of them which is why this conversation is probably ironic. 🙂 However, I wouldn't recommend this school to others knowing what I know.

The 2 main things future/incoming students should look at when ultimately making a decision on where to go are:
1. students board preparation / board scores and
2. ultimately where their students are getting accepted for training after medical school.
Medical school should be the vehicle to accomplishing these. AZCOM must be doing something right.

I disagree. I realize now the only two important criteria is location and tuition. A school won't provide a student with a certain board score. A school doesn't help a student match into a program unless that school is Harvard. I think the only thing AZCOM does right is recruit good students. There are a lot of talented students in our class who are highly motivated and self disciplined. Let's be honest, you don't think you would have done better on the boards if you were not busying studying for the multiple clinical classes we had in the Spring. Imagine how much more free time we would have had if we didn't have classes like OCM II. You gunners would have been in the library doing a 4th reading of First Aid.

 

[bla_3x]

Well, you've tried to "prepare" us, why not share your wealth of knowledge about your experiences talking to the administration?

The haha....really explains the process quite well. In bringing up concerns about clinical rotations I have had reactions from rather scornful to outright patronizing. It's like arguing with a car salesman. They have semi-scripted answers for just about every argument.

And hey, I have never been rude here. I am simply a fourth year trying to out some real, battle-tested information out to some people that may need it soon.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I thought the same thing about the fourth years when I was a premed/msI-II. I thought they were self proclaimed know-it-alls. But hey....EVERYTHING they told me was right on! I wish I was not so blind to that when I could have done something about it.
So please, with the "wealth of information" sarcasm, enough.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Since AZCOM and CCOM are both run by MWU, I'm wondering if CCOM students can comment on any of the issues raised by the OP. Some of the OP's complaints are obviously school-specific (lack of in-state rotations, poor reputation among community physicians, etc.). Is the "money-making" mentality of which the OP complains, high faculty turn over, and the alleged lack of regard for students' best interests isolated to AZCOM or are they systemic throughout MWU?

That's a good question. Some of the complaints I've heard here do seem to apply to CCOM as well. I know that the tuition increases are an issue at both schools, and both schools have a very similar model for preclinical years, meaning that both have the frequent tests and possibly excessive labs. I think the big thing is that it matters less to CCOM students because the school is so established -- consequently, the students don't need as much responsiveness from the admins. Their clinicals are already good, so they don't have to worry about pressuring the admin to get them more sites.

 

[Azcomstud]

I'm done arguing. Look at the school's match list, board scores, talk to as many students as you can, then make an informed decision. Decide if you can live with "the problems" that have been discussed.

Azcom09stud, sorry about my comments toward you. I think you're right that I probably do know you. AZCOM was just pretty good to me and I want people to realize that some of us did get a good education there. Maybe I got lucky with most of my rotations. Maybe its that I did 1/4 of my total rotations out-of state so I truly didn't get the full 3rd and 4th year experience.

The school is failing to correct old mistakes and making more mistakes that will eventually lead to its downfall. I knew that 1st years had podiatry students with them, but I was unaware of how crowded the anatomy lab and auditoriums (those were crowded when I was there!!) are now. I heard that when the class size increases that they'll have to video broadcast omm into another building because everyone won't fit into the omm lab.

AZCOM is going in the wrong direction, but its not as bad as some here would say. Okay, now I',m done arguing!🙂

 

[nickstarkey]

I talked to the new dean at the Alumni dinner and she said they pay over $1500 per rotation per student, so I'm confused on why people are saying the school doesn't pay for rotations. I'm not sure if they're miss informed or just trying to bash the school.

Also, I talked to a couple of the new anatomy folks about the professor turn over, they said it's happening because the University expects so much from them, and the old professors don't want to work so hard.

And, I know plenty of people who scored above average last year sooo...
Don't take everything you read as the truth. Read the rest of the current student replies, before making a judgment.

I like AZCOM, it is expensive, they do want to keep you in the Arizona system for most of your 3rd year, but it's so they KNOW that you're getting a quality clinical education. What has happened in the past is that they sent out students to sites the students wanted and they weren't up to par with the educational level we need.

Bottom line AZCOM is a good school, I'm receiving a good education, I don't think I could learn anymore than I already have. And after going to the Alumni dinner this year I'm excited about becoming an AZCOM graduate.

Peace, and good luck

 

[azcom09stud]

As for us that did the majority of our rotations in Arizona, there are good rotations if you do your homework. I let the school set up all my rotations and then I changed them if I was not happy after researching evaluations by other students. THE SCHOOL WILL LET YOU DO THIS!!!

That's a bit misleading. The school will let you change your rotations assuming there is availability in other rotations. And for the popular rotations, there is little availability if any because everyone wants those rotations. That's why there is a lottery. So it's not so easy to just switch if you don't like your rotation. Most of us usually keep what we have because the alternatives are worse. Our only hope is if programs have more spots suddenly available. This occurs but it's not guaranteed nor is it something you can plan for.

I think people are unaware that there are tons of good rotations in Arizona that are not in the lottery and that students can set them up themselves.

People are aware of these so-called "good rotations" but not everyone wants to live in a small town in the boonies for 1 month nor do a preceptor based rotation. This is a matter of opinion. I've heard all the stories. People will do a rotation in Kingman with a preceptor because he allows you a lot of freedom. By good rotations, people are referring to these rotations. Instead of doing that, a lot of people would rather just do an academic based rotation outside the state such as Botsford.

 

[azcom07]

I talked to the new dean at the Alumni dinner and she said they pay over $1500 per rotation per student, so I'm confused on why people are saying the school doesn't pay for rotations. I'm not sure if they're miss informed or just trying to bash the school.

Also, I talked to a couple of the new anatomy folks about the professor turn over, they said it's happening because the University expects so much from them, and the old professors don't want to work so hard.

And, I know plenty of people who scored above average last year sooo...
Don't take everything you read as the truth. Read the rest of the current student replies, before making a judgment.

I like AZCOM, it is expensive, they do want to keep you in the Arizona system for most of your 3rd year, but it's so they KNOW that you're getting a quality clinical education. What has happened in the past is that they sent out students to sites the students wanted and they weren't up to par with the educational level we need.

Bottom line AZCOM is a good school, I'm receiving a good education, I don't think I could learn anymore than I already have. And after going to the Alumni dinner this year I'm excited about becoming an AZCOM graduate.

Peace, and good luck

talk to any precepting physician and ask them how much they get paid. ask any physician that does small group lectures or large group lectures for 3rd and 4th year students what they get paid. the answer is ZERO! i don't know where this quoted $1500 per student for rotations goes, but ask your preceptors what they are paid and they get nothing except for maybe a free paper weight or a pen sent to them by the school. you don't have to take my word for it, ask your preceptors.

 

[azcom07]

for those of you trying to make a decision to come here, i don't know how many times you need to hear the same thing before you finally decide to go someplace else. if you do come to AZCOM and do well on boards and get into a residency of your choice it will not be because of the school. it is because you, like those before you, have overcome every hurdle the school placed before you to keep you from succeeding, and went above and beyond what would be required of most students to get a decent rotation and to get decent letters of recommendations and to learn on your own through board review books what you should have learned during your first 2 years. and the trend is not, that the school is listening to students complaints and trying to fix them. No, the school instead is compounding the problem by ignoring students and bringing in a hundred more students. there are big problems in the future for all of you who decide to come to AZCOM and i don't think it is worth what the school costs for you to have to go throught the hastle of dealing with the horrible 3rd and 4th yr and with the clinical education office in addition to the problems that you will have during your first 2 years with the addition of all those new students in your omm class and anatomy lab and parking, etc. the reason you come on to this forum is to get advice from those who have gone before you. what is the point of getting on here if you will just ignore the sage advice given to you by those who have battled with the clinical education office the last two years and have spent the last 4 years dealing with the school and want to save you from the same hastle when there are better DO schools out there.

 

[Sarikate]

But we're also in a difficult spot - the 2011'ers, I mean - because I, for one, withdrew from six other schools to go to AZCOM and can't get any of those offers back, so heck, I know I'm going to AZCOM. And it doesn't really help to tell us how much the school sucks, at least not the incoming class. We're committed now, for the most part.

I appreciate the fact that people are spending their time trying to give us advice. But "advice" is different from "venting." There's something good that came out of your education; I'd like to hear your thoughts on that as well, not just an attack of the school. Give us both sides! And actual "advice" on how you think future classes can have more voice; how we can be better equipped; etc. That would be the most helpful. Know what I mean?

 

[Azcomstud]

I had three preceptors that flat out told me they were getting paid. My OB/GYN in fact was receiving $500 a month per student. Not much, but at least its something. I agree that these are in the minority. I thought it was funny how the school two years ago told us not to tell preceptors that some of the docs are getting reimbursed. They of course don't want to pay everybody. We have to remember that these physicians are for the most part volunteering to take students. The school can't force them. All but one physician was happy to have me on their service and took time to teach.
That's all, I'm done arguing

 

[StaryMagic]

Actually, we aren't all committed to AZCOM. I, for one, have a provisional acceptance, and am debating whether or not I want to go if they call me this year with an acceptance(which, they told me over e-mail that they are fully expecting to call me, and I'm still guaranteed a spot there next year if they don't). So, thank you to everyone who has submitted responses! I may very well keep my money and RUN.... I am tempted though, to e-mail their office about some of these issues, to ::ahem:: stir up some fun.... I've got nothing to lose. 🙂

 

[azcom07]

I had three preceptors that flat out told me they were getting paid. My OB/GYN in fact was receiving $500 a month per student. Not much, but at least its something. I agree that these are in the minority. I thought it was funny how the school two years ago told us not to tell preceptors that some of the docs are getting reimbursed. They of course don't want to pay everybody. We have to remember that these physicians are for the most part volunteering to take students. The school can't force them. All but one physician was happy to have me on their service and took time to teach.
That's all, I'm done arguing

steve was this the same ob/gyn group where the students got to pick which one of the many ob's you worked with got all the money or how the money was split from the school between the different ob's in the group. crap like this really happens with the school. one of the dr's that actually works for the family practice office on campus and is a faculty member of the school gets no money for having students and gets no money for his small group lectures that he does. and i'm sure you have, as i have, heard from multiple preceptors that they got no money from the school. and the CME credits that preceptors get for having students isn't worth the paper it's printed on, since those CME credits are not the same kind of CME credits that one needs for their licensing. there is no way the school is paying $1500 per student for the entire 3rd or 4th year let alone the $1500 per student per rotation that was quoted earlier on the forum. CUT AND RUN FOLKS! The ship is sinking and you don't want to be on it when it finally sinks. it is not going to get any better, it is only going to get worse.

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

My comments about Mormon culture in no way suggests that students who are not Mormon cannot succeed. The only thing that is unbelievable is that you read into my post and came up with your own insecure conclusion.



Most Mormons in my class would disagree with you.The fact of the matter is that any student regardless of their faith will be better students if they are more mature and can't partake in many outside distractions. The majority of the Mormon students in our class have a great deal of responsibility outside of school so they are emotionally more mature and are forced to prioritizing. Those students will tend to be better students. This in no way states that every Mormon is an excellent student but lets apply a little common sense here and recognize the general trend.

My statement has nothing to do with common sense, and everything to do with science. Correlation does not equate to causation. Just because you happen to know a lot of emotionally mature mormons does not mean thaty are better students. Remember, I am also mormon and see what you are saying. However, you are the kind of student you make yourself out to be. Mormons might have a head start because of their culture, but maybe not.
Scientifically, CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION!

If you have scientific studies showing mormons are better students over and over again, I would gladly change my point of view.

 

[azcom09stud]

Also, I talked to a couple of the new anatomy folks about the professor turn over, they said it's happening because the University expects so much from them, and the old professors don't want to work so hard.

That's an unfair indictment. The school was essentially increasing the responsibility of the professors without fairly compensating them for that increase. There is a dental school class that is starting in the fall of 2008 so it's not just an increase in medical students. They are also trying to increase the podiatry class size as well. The AZCOM students and the dental students will share classes in the fall of 2008 so I really pity the class of 2012. It's crowded enough as it is, it's going to be a trip to see over 200 students each lecture....can we say Ross University!

I personally spoke with one of the professors in regards to this. Is it really fair to the anatomy faculty to force them to teach additional students without compensating them? Do you realize how many more hours they have to work with the increased class size? To simply accuse them of "not wanting to work hard" is assinine. Rather, these professors were intelligent enough to recognize the school was increasing their workload without fairly compensating them for their increased responsibility so they left to join the AT Still school in Mesa. Many of these professors were tenured and had no intention of leaving but chose to do so because they saw the writing on the wall.

If you were a physician and someone asked you to see twice the number of patients but told you that your base salary would remain the same, I'm sure you wouldn't be too thrilled either.

 

[Sarikate]

Actually, we aren't all committed to AZCOM. I, for one, have a provisional acceptance, and am debating whether or not I want to go if they call me this year with an acceptance(which, they told me over e-mail that they are fully expecting to call me, and I'm still guaranteed a spot there next year if they don't). So, thank you to everyone who has submitted responses! I may very well keep my money and RUN.... I am tempted though, to e-mail their office about some of these issues, to ::ahem:: stir up some fun.... I've got nothing to lose. 🙂

Go for it, Stary! See what they say. You don't have anything to lose (at least after they offer you the acceptance!) I mean, any of us could, I suppose...maybe I will too.

 

[azcom09stud]

My statement has nothing to do with common sense, and everything to do with science. Correlation does not equate to causation. Just because you happen to know a lot of emotionally mature mormons does not mean thaty are better students. Remember, I am also mormon and see what you are saying. However, you are the kind of student you make yourself out to be. Mormons might have a head start because of their culture, but maybe not.
Scientifically, CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION!

If you have scientific studies showing mormons are better students over and over again, I would gladly change my point of view.

So what is your opinion of OMM then? I personally don't know of one OMM double blind research study that was conducted on a large population over 10 years that demonstrated causation and was published in the NEJM, JAMA or any other prestigious medical journal. The efficacy of OMM has been correlative. So is OMM complete bunk in your opinion. After all CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION.

Likewise, scientific and empirical evidence does not EQUAL TRUTH. That is a very different principal.

 

[azcom07]

So what is your opinion of OMM then? I personally don't know of one OMM double blind research study that was conducted on a large population over 10 years that demonstrated causation and was published in the NEJM, JAMA or any other prestigious medical journal. The efficacy of OMM has been correlative. So is OMM complete bunk in your opinion. After all CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION.

Likewise, scientific and empirical evidence does not EQUAL TRUTH. That is a very different principal.

do you think there is an allopathic school anywhere in the nation that spends three hours a week teaching its students something that has no scientific merit or any research to back its therapeutic claims. i don't know, but probably not.

 

[azcom09stud]

But we're also in a difficult spot - the 2011'ers, I mean - because I, for one, withdrew from six other schools to go to AZCOM and can't get any of those offers back, so heck, I know I'm going to AZCOM. And it doesn't really help to tell us how much the school sucks, at least not the incoming class. We're committed now, for the most part.

I appreciate the fact that people are spending their time trying to give us advice. But "advice" is different from "venting." There's something good that came out of your education; I'd like to hear your thoughts on that as well, not just an attack of the school. Give us both sides! And actual "advice" on how you think future classes can have more voice; how we can be better equipped; etc. That would be the most helpful. Know what I mean?

How old are you? I have a desire to do plastic surgery so I wish I would have taken a year off to reapply to an allopathic school. Take a year off and do research and reapply or call one of those schools and see if they would accept you. A lot of osteopathic schools accept students off the waitlist so I wouldn't be surpised to see them accept a strong student that was admitted during the regular admission cycle particularly if you have a high MCAT. You can make something up or explain that you have extraneous circumstances and you need to attend school that's close to home. It can't hurt. You aren't going to lose anything.

 

[azcom09stud]

I would agree with you that it's rather dismissive to only say, "Oh, med students always complain" and leave it at that. But you seem to be implying--correct me if I'm wrong--that the AZCOM students who liked their program and said so both here and elsewhere did not have a valid experience compared to yours.

They had the same experience as me but don't want to come forward with the truth for selfish reasons. This is their school. They are alumni. They don't want to give the school a bad name but the things I'm revealing are the facts.

I'm not trying to belittle your experiences, but I do wonder how you could have picked this school if it turned out to be such an inappropriate place for you, and maybe you should ask yourself--would you really have been happier somewhere else?

I picked this school based on the same assumptions that you and most other naive students have. I heard it was expensive but that the basic science years were excellent and the curriculum was well designed. That's been far from the truth. The curriculum during the basic science years involves too many extraneous clinical classes and the weekly testing schedule forces students to cram versus truly learn the material. I was also under the impression that AZCOM's clinical rotation setup would be "fixed"....yes, I was told "fixed" by 2007 and that's hardly been the case.

I've talked to a fair number of AZCOM students and grads and never have I heard such bitterness and disappointment. It's as though we're talking about two different schools here.

I'm not just spewing venom, I have provided facts and details that most pre-med students are unaware of. Also, if I met you in person, I wouldn't reveal all of this information to you. Do you really expect people to express these views openly in person? That is the advantage of an anonymous forum. People can be candid.

I'm also curious--neither you nor the other bashers have mentioned whether you brought your concerns to the administration of the school and if so, how did they respond? The mark of a good educational institution is not that it's perfect right out of the box but that it is willing to listen to its students and adopt changes that improve the student experience.

What you are unaware of is the administration doesn't make these decisions. The people who make the decisions are the President of the school and the board of trustees. Do you really think our Dean wants to add another 100 students to the existing class and stress our current resources? Do you think our clinical education director is unaware of the problems the future classes will experience? Do you think our administration enjoys raising tuition by 3K each year? We have brought these concerns to the administration and they don't act because they are essentially powerless to do so. And they are under no pressure to make changes because AZCOM receives about 3000 applications each year so there are plenty of students who are willing to put up with these inconveniences for the chance to become a physician.

For example, the clinical course that cuts into board study time--that sounds like a dumb idea. AZCOM prides itself on board pass rates. Why would they try to hurt the students that way? What did the school say when you brought this up?

I'll give you an example. OCM II was a despised course. As of now, the class is not even listed for us to evaluate it. I heard people emailed the administration asking why students can't evaluate it. They have not responded. What I have learned is the administration takes a paternalistic view towards these issues. They feel that we don't know whats good for ourselves so regardless of the large number of complaints, they are going to offer these courses because they feel it's in our best interest regardless if it cuts into board study time. That's the truth whether you choose to accept it or not.

Regarding the OMM curriculum, the same physician has been running the program since the school began, and it has been growing steadily, bringing in residents from around the country. DOs I have spoken to have a high regard for the OMM program, and AZCOM students do very well on the OMM section of their boards. Based on this information, it's hard to believe that it's run poorly. Can you give any examples of how the course could be improved--and have your ideas been heard by the course director?

I never criticized our OMM curriculum. I like it but I understand why others don't. OMM is not emphasized here as strongly as it at other DO schools like MSUCOM and Kirksville. I went to college in Tennessee so friends of mine from school have attended Kirksville and they tell me about it. Some students are bothered by that and wish we were more hardcore into OMM. Personally, I like it because it gives us some room to breathe and they don't demand too much. I'm going into surgery so I could care less about OMM

 

[Sarikate]

How old are you? I have a desire to do plastic surgery so I wish I would have taken a year off to reapply to an allopathic school. Take a year off and do research and reapply or call one of those schools and see if they would accept you. A lot of osteopathic schools accept students off the waitlist so I wouldn't be surpised to see them accept a strong student that was admitted during the regular admission cycle particularly if you have a high MCAT. You can make something up or explain that you have extraneous circumstances and you need to attend school that's close to home. It can't hurt. You aren't going to lose anything.

I'm 28, six years out of college, getting married next year, and my man is getting his master's in education. Would've been difficult for him to get his degree in West Virginia, Virginia was too bible-belt for us, Erie was just depressing, New Jersey slightly too close to my parents, Touro-CA just not my style...the only one that I debated AZCOM with was Touro-NV, but we decided Las Vegas wouldn't be the ideal place for us.

I don't know...I'm ready to suck anything up for four years and get the best education I can. My sister's a FM doctor and she tells me over and over again that it doesn't really matter where you go to med school, it's the residency that counts.

 

[Azcomstud]

This is getting ridiculous! Its one opinion versus another. Azcom09stud, you say you are stating the facts yet there are many students (students who are further in their education than you!!) saying the opposite. Your big problems with the school are a lot smaller in many of our eyes. The school does have problems and these have been more of annoyances than major issues that have held me back. I agree that the school is heading in the worng direction (increase in class size, 3rd year restrictions, ect.), but the sky isn't falling yet and probably won't for the next couple of years. I still don't understand the bitterness. You know, Azcom09stud, you can transfer to another DO/MD school for your clinical training.

Azcom07- the preceptor I was with told me that he personally received $500 per student per month. I am unaware if it was just him receiving the $ or if all 5 in the group that took students got cash. PM- i'd like to know who i am talking to

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

So what is your opinion of OMM then? I personally don't know of one OMM double blind research study that was conducted on a large population over 10 years that demonstrated causation and was published in the NEJM, JAMA or any other prestigious medical journal. The efficacy of OMM has been correlative. So is OMM complete bunk in your opinion. After all CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION.

Likewise, scientific and empirical evidence does not EQUAL TRUTH. That is a very different principal.

This is my last response, because this is obviously a touchy subject for you. Your very last statement is very true. Also, the efficacy of omm being correlative MAY indicate a cause, just as being a mature mormon MAY equate to being a better student etc.
My only point is this; statements made as fact should be backed up w/ fact. I do not think it is a FACT (nor has it been proved scientifically) that Mormons are better students than others.
Again, I am mormon, and think there is some validity to your arguement. I just think there are other factors involved. I also don't think you should state mormons are better students factually without hard evidence.

That was my whole point. Hope there are no hard feelings. 👍

 

[StaryMagic]

I'm 28, six years out of college, getting married next year, and my man is getting his master's in education. Would've been difficult for him to get his degree in West Virginia, Virginia was too bible-belt for us, Erie was just depressing, New Jersey slightly too close to my parents, Touro-CA just not my style...the only one that I debated AZCOM with was Touro-NV, but we decided Las Vegas wouldn't be the ideal place for us.

I don't know...I'm ready to suck anything up for four years and get the best education I can. My sister's a FM doctor and she tells me over and over again that it doesn't really matter where you go to med school, it's the residency that counts.

::Ahem:: Okay, well, you got into a bunch of D.O. schools this year...So you have potential for sure. If you improve your App, might you be able to get into one that's a better fit for you? Maybe DMU, PCOM, CCOM or some other? Oh yeah, and while the residency does matter a great deal... if you go to a crappy school, can you get a good residency? Hmmmm.... This school seemed fishy to me from the interview day, and my fears have been confirmed. There were several holes in the info they gave us.. like the fact that they only included the 2001 residency match list... and notice we had to get the newer ones from people on SDN who were current students, because the info is not on the admissions site for prospective students. Wouldnt they want to advertise something good if they had it? Notice that schools like DMU are open with that sort of info, proudly displaying it on their websites, not hidden away.

 

[Doc2007]

::Ahem:: Okay, well, you got into a bunch of D.O. schools this year...So you have potential for sure. If you improve your App, might you be able to get into one that's a better fit for you? Maybe DMU, PCOM, CCOM or some other? Oh yeah, and while the residency does matter a great deal... if you go to a crappy school, can you get a good residency? Hmmmm.... This school seemed fishy to me from the interview day, and my fears have been confirmed. There were several holes in the info they gave us.. like the fact that they only included the 2001 residency match list... and notice we had to get the newer ones from people on SDN who were current students, because the info is not on the admissions site for prospective students. Wouldnt they want to advertise something good if they had it? Notice that schools like DMU are open with that sort of info, proudly displaying it on their websites, not hidden away.

AZCOM's residency placements are listed on their website. Here is the link: http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/azcomDean_Match.htm. So you recommend students to wait a year and apply again. That means you are loosing one year worth of salary. I don't know if that is such a great idea.

 

[LukeWhite]

Whee.

Preclinical

Like Cyndi mentioned, you can get far by not going to class. If AZCOM replaced all its faculty with monkeys in adorable French clown suits, you could still learn what you need. Med school curriculum is largely standardized the first two years because the boards are so Utterly Crucial. I know that my scores in anatomy went up right about when I started skipping out early on labs and studying straight from Rohen.

This isn't to say that AZCOM isn't disturbingly weak in its attempts to build a stable preclinical faculty. Only that it's not that important. Study in a group every once in awhile, memorize your notes, start doing QBank a year ahead of time, and you'll be where you need to be.

Clinical

Cutting out of state rotations down is a bad move, but you can still get a fantastic education. The secret, I think, is getting far away from Phoenix. Here are a few places I did rotations in Arizona:

Tucson TMC (internal medicine)
Sierra Vista (surgery)
Kingman (FP)
Show Low (FP)

These were awesome rotations and with the exception of Tucson and Kingman were pretty hard-core remote. I took advantage of AZCOM's benign neglect and stayed on call 30 hours at a stretch when my allopathic counterparts had to go home because of school work restrictions. I rounded on patients in hospitals where the nurses are not bombarded with dozens of med students and thus have not been conditioned to despise the Short Coat. I (and my classmates) were ronin: freed of the traditional med school's stifling paternalism, we could Daniel Boone it when and where we wanted and actually do stuff.

Then I spent all of fourth year in New York City, and it was a major step backwards. Pulmonary fellows were reluctant to put in subclavians because they'd only done one or two; I did six during my third year IM rotation. I discovered again and again that the expectations of what a med student's abilities are were far lower than what an AZCOM student can manage.

I got into my first choice residency and other folks in my class got into way better ones. The secret to getting your chosen residency is pretty straightforward: stay out of the bottom of the class, get good board scores, impress a few doctors with your enthusiasm, and tell a few good stories.

And this last bit is, in my opinion, where AZCOM shines. You can go to some really, really neat places, learn a lot of fantastic medicine, and pick up awesome tales of Medicine on the Frontier that will serve you well wherever you interview.

I'm starting an IM residency at a Columbia affiliate in Manhattan, a few blocks from Central Park on the upper west side. I'm pretty sure my odds of getting in would have been much worse without the experience I got at AZCOM, and at least at the time could only get at AZCOM. The school's got a ton of very frustrating shortcomings, but it's stumbled into a pretty good formula for getting its students where they need to be.

 

[DocBR]

::Ahem:: Okay, well, you got into a bunch of D.O. schools this year...So you have potential for sure. If you improve your App, might you be able to get into one that's a better fit for you? Maybe DMU, PCOM, CCOM or some other? Oh yeah, and while the residency does matter a great deal... if you go to a crappy school, can you get a good residency? Hmmmm.... This school seemed fishy to me from the interview day, and my fears have been confirmed. There were several holes in the info they gave us.. like the fact that they only included the 2001 residency match list... and notice we had to get the newer ones from people on SDN who were current students, because the info is not on the admissions site for prospective students. Wouldn't they want to advertise something good if they had it? Notice that schools like DMU are open with that sort of info, proudly displaying it on their websites, not hidden away.

On my interview day they said something to this effect: "Enclosed is the match list for 2001. If you goggle MWU match list, you can find the match lists for every year since 2000."

It did not seem like they were hiding anything from me. And if you go to their website the match list for 2001 seems very representative of all years (there was a slightly larger number of surgical residencies in 2001, but other than that it seems to be about the same). In fact, all of the surgical to plastics were in 2002, 2003, 2004. How is it that they are deceiving us by giving us representative match list?

http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/azcomDean_Match.htm

 

[CC81]

Many valid points have been made up to this point. I feel an obligation to intervene and provide at least a little clarification regarding some of the issues discussed. Having been a part of the Student Government at AZCOM this last year, I feel I am in a unique position to do so. I will attempt to be as objective as possible. Take my commentary with a grain of salt, and please arrive at your own educated conclusions.

Concern 1: High tuition
This one has been beaten to death. The administration is well aware that the student body is universally perturbed with the upward trend of tuition at MWU-AZCOM. In fact, this was the single largest concern voiced by students to COCA (Committee on Osteopathic College Accreditation) during the periodic review of our school in February. We have been told that the new schools on the horizon (namely, the dental school) and further growth of the campus are not being funded by AZCOM's tuition dollars. These new degree programs must be "stand-alone" programs with the ability to be self-sufficient. I have not seen specific numbers or the line-items in the MWU budget. I am also unaware as to how the university on the corporate level channels specific funds.

Concern 2: AZCOM's Reluctance to Pay for Rotations
The discussion on this topic in this thread has been largely anecdotal and limited to payment of individual preceptors. It has been openly expressed in osteopathic circles the reluctance to monetarily compensate individual docs for teaching students. Many believe doctors, especially D.O.'s, ought to give back to their profession by voluntarily teaching students, as many of their mentors had done for them during their training. The challenge, of course, lies in securing rotations not only with preceptors, but also with the academic or ward-based facilities in Arizona. I have been told in person by the outgoing Dean that AZCOM does in fact pay for rotations. The figure that I recall being told is $1.5 million, which works out to roughly $2500 per student, or $5000 per rotating MSIII-MSIV student (a previous post quoted $1500 per student, which may in fact be more accurate). Please do not quote me on the exact figure, as I am having to rely on memory, which fails me on occasion. Regardless, for those who say that AZCOM does not pay for rotations period, they are either misinformed or feeding the rumor tree. Also, remember that $2500 in the big scheme of things is still very little. AZCOM simply does not have the type of funding that many state-funded schools, such as the UofA, have at their disposal. That is not to say that AZCOM cannot and should not consider increasing the funding for its rotating students. If it is possible, it should be done.

Concern 3: The State of Clinical Education, Quality Rotations & Growth of Class Sizes
Having spoken with students that have come before me, the last several years have seen significant improvements with the quantity and quality of rotations available to AZCOM students in Arizona. AZCOM has secured spots at Phx Children's, Maricopa County, the VA, and within the Banner Healthcare network, which were largely unavailable to our students in years past. This was the impetus behind limiting the number of out-of-state rotations that 3rd year students are allowed. These affiliations simply would not be feasible if many of our students continued to leave Arizona to do their rotations. AZCOM has needed to provide assurances that these spots would indeed be filled by its students. This is definitely one of the issues that has been met with mixed reviews by students. Many still favor the flexibility to rotate elsewhere during the 3rd year, while others like the idea of continuity and better rotations in-state. Please keep in mind that 4th year students are still able to do as many away rotations as they desire.

There is certainly a shortage of quality ward-based rotations, but we must also recognize that the scope of this problem extends beyond the Clinical Education Department. There are simply not enough teaching facilities in the state currently to accomodate all of our students. This shortfall will be further amplified when class sizes increase at AZCOM. The incoming class of 2011 will stand at about 151, but the university still plans to increase enrollment to 250 per class in the next several years.

In response to a previous post, information provided at a Dean's Council meeting a couple of months ago indicates the dental school students will NOT share classes with AZCOM students. This was deemed unfeasible and unreasonable. So unless your information is more accurate or more current than what I have been told, the previous post is false.

Concern 4: Turnover of Professors
AZCOM has been highly regarded for its outstanding basic science curriculum and high-quality faculty. We have seen a number of great professors over the last couple years leave to pursue other opportunities. I cannot comment on their reasons for leaving, but we have also seen an influx of well-qualified faculty at AZCOM. There may be a larger problem underlying the departure of certain professors, but I hesitate to guess, conjecture, or propagate rumors. However, this is an area that should be looked at to make sure that the school is doing everything in its power to recruit and retain talented professors.

Concern 5: New Dean's Qualifications
The school announced that Dr. Lori Kemper, D.O., will serve as the new Dean of AZCOM effective this summer. Several have questioned her credentials. I have met with her on several occasions and came away impressed. She is indeed a practicing physician in the Valley, but will be giving up her practice for her new position. Dr. Kemper has not only served as the Associate Dean of Graduate Medical Education at AZCOM, but she has also been a DME, Chief of Staff, and FP Residency Program Director at St. Luke's Hospital. She is the President-Elect of the Arizona Osteopathic Medical Association, and she has been instrumental (along with Dr. Finch, Dr. Cole, and others) in fighting for equal access for AZCOM students to hospitals traditionally reserved for the UofA.

I hope some of you find the information above helpful. To give further perspective, I have just completed my 2nd year of study and am overall very pleased with my experience at AZCOM. Our faculty and students are the school's greatest assets. With that said, there is still a lot of room for improvement. The school must continue to work toward expanding clinical opportunities for our students. I feel the administration should also promote responsible growth as it moves to expand MWU because as it currently stands, I believe the school has neither the facilities nor the faculty to accommodate the planned increase in enrollment. And more time to study for Board exams would be a huge plus! Best of luck to all of you in your future endeavors. 👍

 

[theraball]

I'm 28, six years out of college, getting married next year, and my man is getting his master's in education. Would've been difficult for him to get his degree in West Virginia, Virginia was too bible-belt for us, Erie was just depressing, New Jersey slightly too close to my parents, Touro-CA just not my style...the only one that I debated AZCOM with was Touro-NV, but we decided Las Vegas wouldn't be the ideal place for us.

I don't know...I'm ready to suck anything up for four years and get the best education I can. My sister's a FM doctor and she tells me over and over again that it doesn't really matter where you go to med school, it's the residency that counts.

Sarikate,
We're so alike it's scary! I got into some of the same schools and turned them down for similar reasons. I really liked WVSOM the best, followed by Touro-NV and AZCOM, and I was unimpressed by Touro-CA and the LECOMs. My wife and I compromised on Phoenix. It's a lifestyle decision--maybe for younger single students the arguments azcom09stud is making against going to AZCOM are compelling, but I also come from a medical family and I've always been told that the bottom line is to do well on boards and get into the right residency which is where you really learn medicine.

I'm really sorry to hear about the negative experiences that azcom09stud and others have had, and this is convincing me to get involved with the student government and at least try to help move the school in the right direction even if I can only budge it a micrometer or two during my short time there. I am also going to network as much as possible before MS3 and set up some really useful rotations in Phoenix and elsewhere and work so hard that my preceptors will be sorry to see my rotation end. That's all I can do at this point.

Therapy Ball

 

[azcom07]

I'm really sorry to hear about the negative experiences that azcom09stud and others have had, and this is convincing me to get involved with the student government and at least try to help move the school in the right direction even if I can only budge it a micrometer or two during my short time there. I am also going to network as much as possible before MS3 and set up some really useful rotations in Phoenix and elsewhere and work so hard that my preceptors will be sorry to see my rotation end. That's all I can do at this point.

Therapy Ball

you certainly are naive. good luck. i'm sure your cries will fall on deaf ears as have the complaints of all those before you. the best you can hope for is forget the student government and bend over and take it like the rest of us have. just skip your classes and study for boards and try to get some good letters of recommendations during your audition rotations 4th year. trying to change the school is useless and will only lead to your getting more frustrated. the school sucks. make the most of it if you are all ready here, and if you are lucky enough to have the option, then go someplace else. i only wish i could be there in a few years when all you who label myself and others as "complainers" who are trying to alert you to the pitfall of attending this university realize that we were in fact giving you a fair assesment of what your experience will be like at azcom. by the time that happens though you will all ready be >$100,000 in debt and in the middle doing the clinical education offices job for them by having to set up your own rotations. except the difference between me and you is you will be setting up and traveling to crap rotations in kingman vs i was at least able to go out of state to university hospitals and get letters from people that are known in university cirlces. if the best rotation you can get is something in some DO residency in case grande or kingman then just do a crappy preceptor rotation in phoenix, cause in the end a letter of recommendation from kingman is about as useless as a letter from a precepting physician.

 

[MDmiracle]

I am a entering fourth year with alot of experience in dealing with the administration.

#1. We were allowed 4 out of state rotations as compared to the class below me, which is now allowed 3. You can petition for more if needed.

#2. There are so many partial truths in some of these post that they cannot all be corrected.

Many of the faculty members that are leaving are retiring, It happens that this also occurs when 3-4 have left to start programs at other schools. Yes AZCOM has it's problems, and believe me I have dealt with my share, But with all of those problems I'd come here again in a heart beat.

I think the OP's concern about rotations is valid, but is not based on experiences. We can have as good of a clerkship as we want. we may have to put in more work, but it is usually worth it, and is not usually that much extra anyway.

I was well prepared for both the COMLEX, and USMLE. I think that alot of the underclassmen feel that they should be able to take the boards immediately after classes second year with no additional study. I worked my butt off and scored well into the 90th %ile on both exams.

Also, financially if you have questions about MWU's finances and how they use our money ask the CFO, they are very open. The information I have is that each program must stand alone and pay for itself. The new buildings are built with bond money not tuition dollars.

Now for some of the bad,
Post-rotation exams are a joke, we should take the shelf. Some of the classes in the first years are redundant and unnecessary, but for the most part are not bad.

You do have to do a good portion of the leg work in your clinical years, but IMO this allows you to tailor your education somewhat.

Be wary what you read on these forums, everyone has their opinion, but as always it is just an opinion. Many more people are glad they came here despite the somewhat minor shortcomings, but there are those that are not happy with their choice.

Good Luck to all in your rotations and clinical years. Things are much more fun when you are seeing patients.

Just my .02

 

[jgrady]

Just a few personal observations from another soon-to-be MSIV.

Staff changes
The losses of AZCOM Professors to head departments at the new ASU/UofA and Kirksville campus speaks volumes to the quality of our teaching staff. Stars get hired away. However, I believe we still have a better than average cadre.

Clinical Education
While I think Clin Ed classes are frequently a big waste of time, there are some stars. Linda, the MSIII coordinator, is a superstar. In my schizophrenic switching of specialty choices all year long, she's continually gone to batt rearranging my schedule to get the best possible rotations (quality of Attending, exposure, facility, etc.). I spent four rotations of out state, but don't think three would have made any difference - for me.

Didactics
On rotations I have consistently felt as well or better prepared as students from schools. AZCOM does very well didactically because the tests force you to continually study. It's a very stressful two years with roughly 150 major tests. You become a good test taker and a habitual studier. On the downside, I was burned out for Boards and resented having less study time than some schools but still managed to score well above the means (USMLE and COMLEX).

OMM
Our OMM is very good, especially on soft tissue techniques. I've had Attendings compare my training to students from OUCOM and LECOM and I received many compliments. Of course the Dept. could always do better, especially their testing methodology.

My biggest complaint is with the AOA and Osteopathic education in general, nothing to do with AZCOM. Most DO schools charge twice or more the tuition of state schools, don't teach enough for the USMLE and don't give extra time needed to make up for the 200 hours of OMM lectures. I'm OK with my choice, but given any DO school vs an MD school at $17k a year and I would have a very tough time justifying the value of OMM to myself.

The other negatives discussed are just as true now as they when I started here three years. Or, in the case of class size, can't be judged until we see how they are implemented.

Congrats to the new 2011 class. It's up to you to make the best of your education opportunities.

 

[azrose08grad]

I was well prepared for both the COMLEX, and USMLE. I think that alot of the underclassmen feel that they should be able to take the boards immediately after classes second year with no additional study. I worked my butt off and scored well into the 90th %ile on both exams.

Speaking of partial truths, why don't you tell everyone how you skipped classes to study for boards. I'm in your class and we all know how you never went to class and let your grades slip so that you could do well on the boards. How is it that AZCOM prepared you well if you had to skip all your classes to acquire enough time to study? I'm in your class so I can attest to this. I'm just jealous because I wish I would have listened to you and done the same 😍