Baby teeth

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i61164

Polar Bear, MD
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I could punch my dentist in the mouth right now. 😡

About a year ago, I was signing up for my benefits at work. At the time, my daughter was a little over 1 year old and just starting to get her first teeth. Adding my daughter to my dental plan would have cost me about $125 in extra premiums over the course of the year. So I called my dentist's office and asked if she would need to see the dentist at such a young age. They said no, we don't even start seeing children until they are 5 years old.

So I figured since she's not going to see the dentist anyway, why should I spend the $125? Well, now I can tell you why. At about 2 years old, one of my daughter's teeth broke in half. She didn't even hit it on anything. All of a sudden it was just gone and only a little nub remained. Not only that, it looked like the enamel was literally chipping off of her two front teeth. Concerned, we scheduled an appointment with a pediatric dentist.

The dentist wants to do a root canal on the broken tooth and maybe a root canal on one of the others and put porcelain crowns on 4 teeth. We are talking about the 4 front top teeth. Since my daughter is only two, this work will have to be done in a hospital under....GENERAL ANESTHESIA!

As a member of the pretigious "Average American" club, I have never heard of anything like this being done to baby teeth before. This has come as a complete and total shock to me. At first I though maybe we can get this work done in January. By then, I can add her to my dental insurance plan. Nope. The broken tooth hurts. She probably has an infection in the nerve and if we wait it could risk damage to her permanent teeth.

The estimate is $4,500. If I had put her on my dental plan last November, at least $3,000 of that would be covered. Instead I am on the hook for the entire $4,500 and my dentist thinks that you don't need to add your kids to your dental plan until they turn 5.

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You need to visit some other dentists and get some other opinions on what can be done.

One major thing I've learned thus far is that there are always numerous options for patients, and those options are tiered according to price. What the dentist is wanting to do may not coincide with what you and your family are monetarily able to do, and hence it probably shouldn't be done.

Above all, get some more opinions.
 
ItsGavinC said:
You need to visit some other dentists and get some other opinions on what can be done.

One major thing I've learned thus far is that there are always numerous options for patients, and those options are tiered according to price. What the dentist is wanting to do may not coincide with what you and your family are monetarily able to do, and hence it probably shouldn't be done.

Above all, get some more opinions.

We have two opinions and we'll be getting a third tomorrow. The first two want to do the same exact thing. The one difference between them is that one couldn't do until December/January (she only has the hospital once a month) and the other wants to do it in about two weeks. I was totally on board with waiting until January because then I could save myself 3K. But then the other dentist told my wife that if we wait that long, we will risk damaging the permanent tooth underneath. Plus my daughter is crying when we brush her teeth and we think maybe he is right about the nerve. The second dentist said that if we extract the broken tooth, the one underneath may not come in right. I am really upset about this. I want her to have nice teeth and if we don't do the expensive procedure and her permanent teeth get screwed up I'll really be kicking myself.
 
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Sorry to hear about your daughter's teeth and your insurance situation. If esthetics is not a concern and cost is an issue, then I would just extract those teeth. The permanent teeth will erupt around 6 years of age.

When visit for a secondary consult, be sure to visit a general dentist instead of a pediatric dentist (pedodonotist). For me, a pulpectomy and composite build up would do it for me!

Good luck.

Decidous (baby) teeth does not usually direct the direction of eruption of permanent teeth.
 
Yah-E said:
Sorry to hear about your daughter's teeth and your insurance situation. If esthetics is not a concern and cost is an issue, then I would just extract those teeth. The permanent teeth will erupt around 6 years of age.

When visit for a secondary consult, be sure to visit a general dentist instead of a pediatric dentist (pedodonotist). For me, a pulpectomy and composite build up would do it for me!

Good luck.

Decidous (baby) teeth does not usually direct the direction of eruption of permanent teeth.

The two general dentists that I have called say that they don't see patients this young (2 years old).

What's a pulpectomy?
 
I would certainly get the opinion of a pediatric dentist. Generally, traumatic injuries to primary teeth involving the pulp are managed with a calcium hydroxide pulpectomy and a composite build-up crown. Root canal treatment with gutta percha obturation is generally contra-indicated in primary teeth. Furthermore, it is not customary practice to place a porcelain crown on a primary tooth. Have you had a panoramic x-ray taken of your child...it may give your dentist some helpful information regarding the etiology of the enamel breakdown.
 
a pulpectomy is what the word suggest, "removal of the pulp"
the pulp is the nerve and nourishment for the teeth and is the most probable source of pain, but without doing an exam, neither I nor ANY other person is qualified to give you advice, especially over the web (no offence YAH-E). You should listen to what the dentist tells you. If you extract those teeth there could be future problems later on with the permanent teeth that replaces those baby teeth (ortho- braces may be needed) If money is a problem you could consider seeking treatment at a dental school, they have reduced prices.
Please don't "punch your dentist in the mouth" It isn't his/her fault what happened to your daughter and what ever advice they gave you was exactly that, advice. The ultimate choice was yours. You took a gamble by not insuring her. The important thing now is that your child recieve the proper care she needs. especially if she is in pain.
Look in your phone book for PEDIATRIC DENTIST they specialize in treating children.
 
kerrydds06 said:
a pulpectomy is what the word suggest, "removal of the pulp"
the pulp is the nerve and nourishment for the teeth and is the most probable source of pain, but without doing an exam, neither I nor ANY other person is qualified to give you advice, especially over the web (no offence YAH-E). You should listen to what the dentist tells you. If you extract those teeth there could be future problems later on with the permanent teeth that replaces those baby teeth (ortho- braces may be needed) If money is a problem you could consider seeking treatment at a dental school, they have reduced prices.
Please don't "punch your dentist in the mouth" It isn't his/her fault what happened to your daughter and what ever advice they gave you was exactly that, advice. The ultimate choice was yours. You took a gamble by not insuring her. The important thing now is that your child recieve the proper care she needs. especially if she is in pain.
Look in your phone book for PEDIATRIC DENTIST they specialize in treating children.
The interesting thing I'm seeing here is the alleged recommendation from her dentist not to see a dentist until age 5. That runs in direct opposition to what little I've read about pedo; everything I've seen advises getting the kid an exam at some point in the first couple years.
 
Extraction of primary teeth can indeed affect the eruption pattern of perm teeth. One reason is the accumulation of fibrous connective tissue making it difficult to erupt thru. But sometimes, as in this case, there's no other choice. If you have an Ellis Class IV fracture where the entire crown fractures off the appropriate treatment is to extract the tooth/root due to the very real threat of involvement of the perm tooth bud. You would not do a composite build up for this type of fracture of a primary tooth. If the fracture is more of a Class III where the pulp was just exposed (often a diagonal fracture just exposing the pulp horn) you could do a formocresol pulpotomy or pulpectomy (depending on whether the tooth is vital or not) and crown it, but it sounds as if her fracture is quite a bit more involved than that.


I can't suggest anything for the other teeth not having seen them clinically, but I will echo others in that porcelain is not typically used in kids. Usually you're looking at a stainless steel crown possibly an open faced/white front stainless steel crown for esthetics.

I'll echo others and say get another pediatric dentist's opinion. I'd also look for an opinion on the underlying cause for daughter's dental problems. It may be nothing, but teeth (even baby teeth) usually don't fracture off or chip away for no apparent reason.
 
aphistis said:
The interesting thing I'm seeing here is the alleged recommendation from her dentist not to see a dentist until age 5. That runs in direct opposition to what little I've read about pedo; everything I've seen advises getting the kid an exam at some point in the first couple years.

exactly.
 
if a dentist decides to extract a baby tooth, can't they just place space maintenence to hold the spot where the tooth used to be so that the permanent tooth can come in uncrowded? also, if the nub is restorable, couldn't they just to a pulpotomy and steel crown, and just add some composite and smooth the front teeth? i'm surprised two pedo's said they wanted to do root canals with porcelain crowns... but, i am not even a dental student, what do i know 😀 like was said, the docs that actually examined her probably know better than we do and you should probably go with what they recommend.

ps. not seeing kids until 5 is pretty common among general dentists, unfortunately 🙁 when i am a dentist i will start seeing kids at 1, even if in some instances it just ends up being to give them a referral to pedo 👍

edit: as i was writing my message, several other people chimed in and beat me to it 🙂
 
ItsGavinC said:
Bingo. My thoughts also. Build those suckers up to look all nice and purty.

I would only do a composite build up with an Ellis I or II fracture not involving the pulp. Possible a formocresol pulpotomy depending on how much tooth structure remained. In any case a composite build up on a 2 yr old would likely pose quite a challenge.
 
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I haven't done pediatric dentistry since dental school, but I remember hearing a lot of fuss about maintaining the baby teeth (not extracting), not to guide the permanent teeth into eruption, but to maintain enough space for them to erupt. This is because they don't erupt in order from front to back.

I also remember learning that the American Academy of Pediatric Dentists (or whoever) recommends the first exam by 2 years of age. This is for routine care, and does not address emergencies which can happen at any age you have a tooth...which is why I would get the dental coverage even if she's not old enough for "routine" care.

They're definately right about the infection causing discoloration (brown) of the permanent tooth which is generally not bleachable.
 
don't they recommend by 1 years of age, since your first tooth comes in at age 1 and their mouth starts getting colonized at 1 (see the kid if for no other reason than just to educate the parents about colonization and nursing caries and all that)
also, why not start routine axams as soon as they get teeth? i have seen 3 year olds with mouths full of fillings, which would of been crowns and extractons had they not been seen routinely until 5.
 
toofache32 said:
I haven't done pediatric dentistry since dental school, but I remember hearing a lot of fuss about maintaining the baby teeth (not extracting), not to guide the permanent teeth into eruption, but to maintain enough space for them to erupt. This is because they don't erupt in order from front to back.

Yes, under most circumstances, but not when the entire crown has fractured off. You would extract and place her in space maintainers. If really want to restore that tooth, you'd first have to do a pulpotomy to allow the apex to close. Now in order to do this, the tooth must be vital and root relatively healthy (doesn't sound like it from the description). Once the apex has closed up then you're free to do the root canal. Of course given her age, you'll be waiting for a while. And then you can go ahead with a post and crown.
 
Maybe I am mistaken about the porcelain. The estimates from the two pediatric dentists look something like this:

X-Ray $$$
Root Canal $$$
Root Canal (possibly) $$$
Resin Composite Crown $$$
Resin Composite Crown $$$
Resin Composite Crown $$$
Resin Composite Crown $$$

Hospital/Anesthisia $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The crown's might as well be made of porcelain for $350 a piece. Maybe my general dentist skipped class the day they discussed pedo. He's a young guy and probably doesn't have any kids. Anyway, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the general population is totally uneducated about dental care for baby teeth. At the time, my dentist was my trusted advisor for all my dental concerns. Not anymore.

kerrydds06 - Are you going to defend the advice that my dentist gave me? Maybe it was my mistake to think that my "general dentist" could tell me whether or not a 1.5 - 2.5 year old might need to see a dentist. On the other hand, pretty much everyone on this board, even if they don't know much about pedo, thinks it's a no brainer. If I knew about SDN back then, maybe I would have posted the question here and actually gotten good advice.
 
DDSSlave said:
Yes, under most circumstances, but not when the entire crown has fractured off. You would extract and place her in space maintainers. If really want to restore that tooth, you'd first have to do a pulpotomy to allow the apex to close. Now in order to do this, the tooth must be vital and root relatively healthy (doesn't sound like it from the description). Once the apex has closed up then you're free to do the root canal. Of course given her age, you'll be waiting for a while. And then you can go ahead with a post and crown.

Well, we went to see a third dentist. She said that there wasn't really enough tooth left to put a crown on it. She could try, but it might fall off. While the first two dentists wanted to do an x-ray only after general anesthesia had been administered, this one had us do the x-ray immediately. With the x-ray, she had a lot more to go on than the others and she said, without a doubt, that she would not do a root canal (even if it were her own kid). We had the tooth extracted right then and there. She said that we could get a fake tooth if we want, but not until more of her molars come in because they would need to wrap a wire around two molars that haven't come in yet. In her opinion, the spacer is not necessary for this one tooth. She said if it was all four front teeth, she would definitely do something for aesthetic purposes, but for this one it's no big deal (it's not one of the two front teeth, but one right next to them).

So now the most urgent problem is resolved (and it only cost $220 for the consult, x-ray, and extraction). The remaining three front teeth will need crowns, but it can wait until next year. Once my daughter is 2.5 (this coming February), she will be old enough to have it done in the dentist's office with an IV drip instead of going to the hospital.

What a relief.
 
By the way, everyone that said that I needed to get another opinion gets a gold star.
 
Don't be so quick to get upset at your dentist. I think the advice he dentist gave you concerning insurance was pretty sound. He probably didn't know that it would only cost you ~$100 a year - which is a steal by the way. He was probably assuming insurance would cost in the area of a few hundred dollars a year.

It is very unlikely that a child with good homecare would need more than regular exams and possibly a filling or two. For most people insurance on a child that young would have been a total waste. Unfortunately you were not destined to be like most people, but the dentist had no way of knowing this. Having Dr. in front of your name doesn't give you the ability to see the future (wish it did though, Las Vegas here I come 🙂 )

Your dentist gave you reasonable advice; unfortunately you had a situation that was somewhat out of the ordinary. It's too bad that happened, but you certainly can't hold your dentist responsible.
 
Did someone say it was OK just to extract deciduous teeth?! 😱 Not only are you predisposing the child for eruption problems later (even with a space maintainer), but in a child this young you are also setting him up for speech impediments that may last a lifetime or at least into pre- and early teen years. Not to mention several years of social ridicule ---- kids are MEAN! You can't discount the effects these things have on children just because they are young.
 
Erm, not to be mean, Bob, but sometimes dentists blow it, and it looks a lot like that's what happened here. Telling a parent not to take their kids to the dentist until age 5 or after is irresponsible. As for the last dentist, extracting hopeless teeth (primary OR permanent) isn't an uncommon treatment modality, if the patient can't or won't pay up to or beyond a couple big ones to have RCT, post/core, and a crown. I just don't think the original dentist's actions are very defensible.
 
Dr.SpongeBobDDS said:
Did someone say it was OK just to extract deciduous teeth?! 😱 Not only are you predisposing the child for eruption problems later (even with a space maintainer), but in a child this young you are also setting him up for speech impediments that may last a lifetime or at least into pre- and early teen years. Not to mention several years of social ridicule ---- kids are MEAN! You can't discount the effects these things have on children just because they are young.

According to the AAPD and McDonald & Avery extractions are appropriate and necessary in certain situations. First and foremost if the infection has spread past the apical foreman you are in real danger of harming the permanent tooth bud. In such incidents it is almost always indicated to extract. Also, in a class IV fracture where there is almost nothing to restore, extractions are indicated. If you wanted to restore such a tooth, you'd have to use a post and core. Of course to do that you'd have to do RCT which is contraindicated in this 2 yr old due many facts, but most of all her apical foreman has yet to close. It is indeed possible that her extraction may cause problems in the eruption and spacing of perm teeth, but nothing ortho can't fix. On the other hand, to not extract in this case is to place the perm tooth bud in danger and potentially cause problems that are not so easily remedied.
 
i61164 said:
kerrydds06 - Are you going to defend the advice that my dentist gave me? Maybe it was my mistake to think that my "general dentist" could tell me whether or not a 1.5 - 2.5 year old might need to see a dentist. On the other hand, pretty much everyone on this board, even if they don't know much about pedo, thinks it's a no brainer. If I knew about SDN back then, maybe I would have posted the question here and actually gotten good advice.

I'm not defending the advice you got because I was not there. But I stand by what I said that "without doing an exam, neither I nor ANY other person is qualified to give you advice, especially over the web." the dentist(s) with whom you sougth treatment is in the best position to advice you. He/she has a liscence to practice dentistry because they fullfill the requirements to maintain that liscence and they have experience. Which is a whole lot more than the hotshots on this site including myself have. So consider that before you start agreeing with advice that indulges you. You can keep paying for consultations until you get a dentist that tells you what you wan't to hear because eventually someone will. The truth is that dentistry is not an exacting science. There are many different ways to treat the same problem. and different dentist have different methods that they are comfortable with. You have to find a dentist who you trust and is comfortable with to treat your family.

Note to all dental students: Be careful when you critize other dentists' treatment plans unless you have all the facts.
 
DDSSlave said:
In any case a composite build up on a 2 yr old would likely pose quite a challenge.

I have a 2 year old and can vouch that ANYTHING on said kid would pose quite a challenge, much less making anything that looks remotely esthetically pleasing. 😀
 
Dr.SpongeBobDDS said:
Did someone say it was OK just to extract deciduous teeth?! 😱 Not only are you predisposing the child for eruption problems later (even with a space maintainer), but in a child this young you are also setting him up for speech impediments that may last a lifetime or at least into pre- and early teen years. Not to mention several years of social ridicule ---- kids are MEAN! You can't discount the effects these things have on children just because they are young.

Well, the third dentist that we saw felt that the broken could not really be saved. Not only was it broken, but it was actually brown. Remember, this is the only dentist that had an x-ray. The first two didn't want to do the x-ray without putting her to sleep first.

Personally I think that this was the right decision. I am basing this statement on the fact that since the tooth was pulled, about 9 hours ago, my daughter has become so bubbly and happy and energetic. She really hasn't been in this good of a mood all summer and we now suspect that the tooth had been causing her pain for some time now.

The dentist explained to us that if we want, we can get her an aesthetic tooth replacement once the rest of her molars come in. That should prevent the ridicule that you are concerned about. I don't know the whole story on speech impediments, but maybe the fake tooth can prevent that as well.

As for eruption problems, I have heard conflicting information on this very thread about that, so I'm not sure who is right. In any event, as someone else said, even if there are eruption problems it can be fixed and it could have been a lot worse.
 
Sorry guys, maybe I wasn't clear. Of course it is sometimes indicated to extract deciduous teeth. I was referring to the post - and maybe I misread - that seemed to suggest that it was no big deal having them extracted, after all they are just "baby" teeth. Since I have started dental school you don't know how many people back home have asked me questions about their children's teeth and they invariably end with some form of "but they're just baby teeth so it's not a big deal right?" Of course, being the good dental student that I am I tell them to talk to a "real" dentist. 🙂

I was just trying to stress the fact here that it is a HUGE deal to extract deciduous teeth and there are fairly serious consequences that may result.
 
I also found it a little disturbing how quick we all were to jump on this poor dentist. I am not suggesting we protect our own at all costs, but a little professional "benefit of a doubt" wouldn't hurt. Dentistry is as much art as it is science and there is certainly more than one "right" way to approach any case. The treatment plan decided upon in the end is going to be modified by patient's desire, ability to pay, and the one nobody wants to admit ---- ability of the dentist. The dentist who can build up 4 acceptable composite crowns on a two yr old outside of the OR would be a rare find, indeed. 🙂 Every dentist has a different repertoire and restorative treatment is going to fall within those bounds.

As for ripping the dentist for telling her that 5 yr olds don't need to be seen.... She called on the phone; do you really think she talked to the dentist? I'll set a full arch of teeth for you Bill if she talked to anyone beside the office manager or an assistant. And dutifully, the office manager reported that the doctor does not see anyone under the age of 5 - just good office policy for dentists who value their sanity. 😀 Yes, it would be nice if the OM had thought to suggest a pediatric dentist, but for all we know the OM assumed it was just another call about "can I bring in little Susy for a check-up." The person answering the phone in an office is rarely going to know much more than billing, appointments, insurance and office policy. You can't blame the dentist for that.

This poster assumed a lot of things from that one little conversation with someone who probably knows as much about dentistry as I do about turbine engines, no offense i61164. Remember when you see other classmates' or colleagues' patients that what we tell them and what they hear are very often two different things. I think being so quick to criticize only hurts dentistry as a whole by undermining the trust patients have in us as professionals.
 
Dr.SpongeBobDDS said:
I was just trying to stress the fact here that it is a HUGE deal to extract deciduous teeth and there are fairly serious consequences that may result.

👍 Absolutely. It bugs me when people seem apathetic about their kids teeth, since 'after all they're just baby teeth.' We as dentists should do our best to spread the gospel.
 
Just saw this thread and opened it out of curiosity. I am soo glad that you got your daughter's problem resolved! My son has had some serious issues with his baby teeth and we've been through the pulopotomy and crown routine...let's see...on all 4 of his front upper teeth! (International adoptee and our best guess is that his birthmom didn't have the best nutrition during pregnancy and his teeth were just weak from the start).

Anyway, I wanted to offer some support from a mom whose been at the pediatric dentist's office waaaay too many times. First two pulpotomies were before he turned 2. BTW, he was sedated in the dentist's office. Glad I avoided a hospital visit! Like you, though, as soon as those teeth were fixed, I noticed his mood was better and he was more active. I can't even imagine how much pain he had been in before we realized that the entire back side of his tooth has disappeared!

Hope your daughter recovers well! Oh, and you might want to add her to your insurance. 🙂

Willow
 
Dr.SpongeBobDDS said:
Did someone say it was OK just to extract deciduous teeth?! 😱 Not only are you predisposing the child for eruption problems later (even with a space maintainer), but in a child this young you are also setting him up for speech impediments that may last a lifetime or at least into pre- and early teen years. Not to mention several years of social ridicule ---- kids are MEAN! You can't discount the effects these things have on children just because they are young.

read the first post...
anterior teeth...not 2nd primary molars.
(i will just assume the front 4 top teeth described = "the front teeth" (incisors))

outside of esthetics, why the heck would you need to maintain space in the anterior?

(answer--you don't...iirc)



for the OP,
i'd probably want a 2nd opinion form another of your local pedodontists...
 
kerrydds06 said:
I'm not defending the advice you got because I was not there. But I stand by what I said that "without doing an exam, neither I nor ANY other person is qualified to give you advice, especially over the web." the dentist(s) with whom you sougth treatment is in the best position to advice you. He/she has a liscence to practice dentistry because they fullfill the requirements to maintain that liscence and they have experience. Which is a whole lot more than the hotshots on this site including myself have. So consider that before you start agreeing with advice that indulges you. You can keep paying for consultations until you get a dentist that tells you what you wan't to hear because eventually someone will. The truth is that dentistry is not an exacting science. There are many different ways to treat the same problem. and different dentist have different methods that they are comfortable with. You have to find a dentist who you trust and is comfortable with to treat your family.

Note to all dental students: Be careful when you critize other dentists' treatment plans unless you have all the facts.



agreed,

speaking for myself, i try to ignore the personal "my teeth" posts...
however, when there are 'Standard of care issues' involved...you can't really use the "dentistry is not an exact science excuse.
it becomes more black and white.
even then most here treat it is a clinical correlation problem and (personally again) i usually offer a disclaimer that i'm not a dentist nor am i licensed to do or dianose jack...
 
toothcaries said:
read the first post...
anterior teeth...not 2nd primary molars.
(i will just assume the front 4 top teeth described = "the front teeth" (incisors))

outside of esthetics, why the heck would you need to maintain space in the anterior?

(answer--you don't...iirc)

I suppose anterior teeth might erupt completely normally without maintaining the space - I haven't heard that before, but it certainly could be true. I'll have to look it up. But why would habits such as chronic thumbsucking and sippy cups that cause Bucky Beaver teeth still effect the location and angulation of the permanent teeth? I know the palate can be remodeled in younger children, but I've never seen severely overextended anterior maxillae - just protruding teeth.

In any case, there are plenty of reasons outside of esthetics to replace the teeth. Two major ones being the social stigma she is likely to face as she approaches school age and the lack of appropriate anatomy for speech development. I have a friend who is a speech pathologist in the public schools and we have actually talked about this very thing. Sometimes when small children learn to speak with problems such as missing teeth or ankyloglossia they develop abnormal speech habits that can stick with them for many years - even after the underlying problems have been addressed.

There is a reason we have to check phonetics when doing a denture try-in; the anterior teeth are pretty darn important in how we speak. Think about how old people talk without their dentures - it's all "sloppy" and lispy. Why would a two year old be able to cope with that situation any better than an adult?







OK, I'm going off on a tangent here, but I wonder if Sean Connery has ever had a dentist offer to do something about his lisp. He didn't have it when he was younger. Go rent a movie called Darbie O'Gill and the Little People. It's a movie Sean Connery did when he was really young; it's semi-musical and he actually sings. As strange as it sounds, he does a pretty good job. 😀

Anyhow my point is that Sean Connery hasn't always had that lisp and I wonder if it has something to do with his teeth shifting. 😕 🙂
 
I wonder if I could get Sean Connery to let me use him as a case study? "Shifting Teeth and Phonetics: A 40 Year Case Study" How often do you think he has had casts made? If it was with any frequency I could correlate the progression of his occlusal changes with audio from his movies over the years and the development of his verbal eccentricities.

Even with poor presentation, I'd have to be able to get that published in some journal. I mean, it's Sean Connery, right? 😉
 
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