Back to the Salary Issue!

[cool_vkb]

Hey guys!

all the websites and other info are pretty outdated regarding Salaries issue. The BLS Gov website says its 90000 approx while some say its 168K and i guess AAPM says 110K and so on. iam kind of confused. Can anyone give me what is the current salary range for Pods. just for my knowledge.

And i heard from someone that sometimes insurance doesnt pay for us, is this true. i think he confused us with chiros but still is it true in somecases?

Thank You

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[jonwill]

Hey guys!

all the websites and other info are pretty outdated regarding Salaries issue. The BLS Gov website says its 90000 approx while some say its 168K and i guess AAPM says 110K and so on. iam kind of confused. Can anyone give me what is the current salary range for Pods. just for my knowledge.

And i heard from someone that sometimes insurance doesnt pay for us, is this true. i think he confused us with chiros but still is it true in somecases?

Thank You

Ya, the reports can be confusing and some of them don't take into account the part-timers, training, and some even include resident salary! I've also seen reports that don't take into consideration incentives and only report base salary. On my 2006-2007 US tour, I have been asking every program I visit about the offers their senior residents get and take (all have been PM&S-36). I have seen starting salaries anywhere from 60K to 150K but this can be deceiving.

Multi-specialty and ortho groups seem to offer bigger starting salaries with fewer salary incentives. They can do this because they usually have a large cash flow. However, if you start at 120K, you may receive small bonuses and cash incentives but you probably aren't going to make a whole lot over that your first year out. Docs in these groups seem to top out anywhere from high 100's to mid 200's.

Private practice groups usually offer you a lower starting salary with larger incentives. I believe this is because, in general, they have less cash flow and you are a greater risk to them (especially the smaller practices). However, the more revenue you produce, the bigger your bonuses are. A friend of mine in Florida was hired on at a base of 60K but with huge production incentives and is on track to make well over 100K his first year out. Another guy I know started with a small practice in Michigan at a base of 80K. However, he worked his butt off and made nearly 200k his first year out. As far as topping out goes, the sky is the limit (increase patient load, new locations, more docs, etc).

As I said, I've been talking to various residents at various programs and this seemed to be the case. There are also those crazy guys that graduate from residency and start their own practice from scratch. Obviously they will have lower salaries their first few years out as they are building a patient base (which many salary reports don't take into consideration either). We posted a JAPMA salary survey that seemed pretty darn accurate. It is somewhere on this forum so find it and take a look at it. Hope this helps.

I think the bottom line is that, as long as you are competent, hard working, and get good training, you will do well. I'm sorry to say that there are some in the profession that are none of the above!

 

[ucrs]

when talking salary, do you guys mean gross or net? is the average 100K what podiatrist are taking home after all of the expenses (tax, etc)?

 

[Podman]

when talking salary, do you guys mean gross or net? is the average 100K what podiatrist are taking home after all of the expenses (tax, etc)?

net

 

[oncogene]

hey guys,

Gross income is the total amount of money that comes through the podiatry practice without any expenses taken out of that amount.

Net income is the amount of money that is left after the cost of doing business and educational loans are subtracted from the gross income. Net income is your salary plus incentives and benefits. This is not however after taxes. Taxes will come out of the net income.

I hope this clears up the misconception that net income is after taxes. although i wish that was the case!


I just want to add that all of this is relative to the way the business is setup for example if the business is incorporated or a proprietorship.


oncogene

 

[cool_vkb]

wow thankyou very much! u r great. it was such a detailed explanation. thank u boss!

Ya, the reports can be confusing and some of them don't take into account the part-timers, training, and some even include resident salary! I've also seen reports that don't take into consideration incentives and only report base salary. On my 2006-2007 US tour, I have been asking every program I visit about the offers their senior residents get and take (all have been PM&S-36). I have seen starting salaries anywhere from 60K to 150K but this can be deceiving.

Multi-specialty and ortho groups seem to offer bigger starting salaries with fewer salary incentives. They can do this because they usually have a large cash flow. However, if you start at 120K, you may receive small bonuses and cash incentives but you probably aren't going to make a whole lot over that your first year out. Docs in these groups seem to top out anywhere from high 100's to mid 200's.

Private practice groups usually offer you a lower starting salary with larger incentives. I believe this is because, in general, they have less cash flow and you are a greater risk to them (especially the smaller practices). However, the more revenue you produce, the bigger your bonuses are. A friend of mine in Florida was hired on at a base of 60K but with huge production incentives and is on track to make well over 100K his first year out. Another guy I know started with a small practice in Michigan at a base of 80K. However, he worked his butt off and made nearly 200k his first year out. As far as topping out goes, the sky is the limit (increase patient load, new locations, more docs, etc).

As I said, I've been talking to various residents at various programs and this seemed to be the case. There are also those crazy guys that graduate from residency and start their own practice from scratch. Obviously they will have lower salaries their first few years out as they are building a patient base (which many salary reports don't take into consideration either). We posted a JAPMA salary survey that seemed pretty darn accurate. It is somewhere on this forum so find it and take a look at it. Hope this helps.

I think the bottom line is that, as long as you are competent, hard working, and get good training, you will do well. I'm sorry to say that there are some in the profession that are none of the above!

 

[whiskers]

I think it is dishonest to say that podiatrists make $X, close to X or even above X. The fact is that there is a very large distribution of income based on so many factors that your head will spin. You'll hear so many theories and abstract BS that you'll even get more confused.

I think that there are lots of people who end up disappointed by their starting salary after residency... and some that don't and lots of that disappointment could have been avoided by lowering personal expectations.

But you'll hear lots of +'s from hopeful podiatry students who have a ton of debt. Lol. I think it's just people in general like to believe what they deeply want to be true.

I think we should just be content it is still, in general, a middle class income similar to most other medical and non medical professions.

 

[jonwill]

I think it is dishonest to say that podiatrists make $X, close to X or even above X. The fact is that there is a very large distribution of income based on so many factors that your head will spin. You'll hear so many theories and abstract BS that you'll even get more confused.

I think that there are lots of people who end up disappointed by their starting salary after residency... and some that don't and lots of that disappointment could have been avoided by lowering personal expectations.

But you'll hear lots of +'s from hopeful podiatry students who have a ton of debt. Lol. I think it's just people in general like to believe what they deeply want to be true.

I think we should just be content it is still, in general, a middle class income similar to most other medical and non medical professions.

No...

I pretty much know what I am talking about.

 

[oncogene]

I think it is dishonest to say that podiatrists make $X, close to X or even above X. The fact is that there is a very large distribution of income based on so many factors that your head will spin. You'll hear so many theories and abstract BS that you'll even get more confused.

I think that there are lots of people who end up disappointed by their starting salary after residency... and some that don't and lots of that disappointment could have been avoided by lowering personal expectations.

But you'll hear lots of +'s from hopeful podiatry students who have a ton of debt. Lol. I think it's just people in general like to believe what they deeply want to be true.

I think we should just be content it is still, in general, a middle class income similar to most other medical and non medical professions.

Since when is an $80,000 or more a year a middle class salary? I can tell you that is better than 90% of other earners in the market. See ya.

oncogene

 

[Dr. Foot]

I totally agree with whiskers - as a podiatrist there are many factors that determines your salary. Some will land on a six figure salary and some will be starting less. It is all luck my friends. It doesn't matter what school u went to or which hospital u done ur 3 yrs residency. Some people got a business mind and some don't.

 

[jonwill]

I totally agree with whiskers - as a podiatrist there are many factors that determines your salary. Some will land on a six figure salary and some will be starting less. It is all luck my friends. It doesn't matter what school u went to or which hospital u done ur 3 yrs residency. Some people got a business mind and some don't.

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard

Your training has absolutely everything to do with it. The more qualified you are, the more (and better) job offers you will get. And it is a well known fact that residents from the stronger programs are very heavily recruited. Since the majority of graduating residents will go into multi-specialty groups, ortho groups, and existing practices, a "business mind" isn't necessary.

I don't totally disagree with you though. I have seen podiatrists with mediocre training do very well because they have great business sense. However, I think it hurts our profession.

 

[Dr. Foot]

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard It is for sure ridiculous if you only read the handbook that ur podiatry school give out on day one. But real life experience is different to certain degree. I am talking from experience, I have seen podiatrists who got a 3 yrs residency at an "average" hospital and are making more $ than podiatrist who got out of west penn 3 residency w/ fellowship.

 

[jonwill]

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard It is for sure ridiculous if you only read the handbook that ur podiatry school give out on day one. But real life experience is different to certain degree. I am talking from experience, I have seen podiatrists who got a 3 yrs residency at an "average" hospital and are making more $ than podiatrist who got out of west penn 3 residency w/ fellowship.

Handbook??? There are exceptions to every rule but, for the most part, a better trained pod is going to get better offers and land a better job. This is what I consistantly see. I'm not saying you have to go to a "big name" program because some of them are all hype with OK training. There are plenty of less well known programs that have very good training.

The bottom line is that if you receive poor training in residency, don't expect a lot of job offers!!!

 

[Podman]

Well its definately no secret that you need business skills to succeed in medicine. The fact that our health care and insurance have evolved over the past decades with reimburssments (sp?) varying per procedure with different billing codes getting shuffled around - its no wonder that clinicians need to be very competent in business. As a matter of fact, most of the future employers do look for an associate who has the ability and dedication to make the practice financially grow.

However, I do agree with jonwill that your training has alot to do with this. A strongly trained clinician has an upperhand and a "headstart" in attracting better offers. A podiatric surgeon coming out of a 3-year residency would be offered a better STARTING salary job than a 1 or 2-year residency graduate. This makes alot of sense from a financial perspective as well - think about it, as a surgically trained podiatrist with 3 years of training (+ fellowship), you become board eligible for more procedures - more procedures typically translate to more cases your employer's practice which result in a better payout for the practice. For that reason, it is not unreasonable to see podiatrists starting out with 6 figures after 3 years of residency training.

Another point that I wanted to examine is the fact that residency programs are alot like fraternities in the sense that job opportunities circulate within the network of the program. So, a reputable program with solid training will provide you with an opportunity to be recruited by that same network or group of established doctors.

 

[Dr. Foot]

Great Post!!!