Salary Question/Concern

Discussion in 'Podiatry Students' started by AnkleGuy, Jul 8, 2017.

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  1. AnkleGuy

    AnkleGuy

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    Why do I see that most salary websites indicate that podiatrists earn $120k a year on average, while every google search of average podiatry salaries at any location in the US range from $160-190k a year? Do salary websites include residency salaries in their calculations?
     
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  3. ill be a doc soon

    ill be a doc soon

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    On the Residents and Physicians section I am seeing people getting private practice jobs with base as low as 70k with atrocious incentives and as high as 275k at Kaiser. I think it really depends where you work (Private Practice vs Hospital/MSG/Ortho group), or if you live near a large city like LA or NYC with alot of pod schools nearby.

    I have also read that it depends on where you do your residency. I guess when it comes to podiatry, it kinda does matter what your class rank is because higher class rank = better residency = better jobs.

    As for the websites reporting different salaries, I have no idea. In fact I have the same question... The lowest is BLS which puts Pods at around 120k and ACFAS puts pods at around 211k. Is there sampling bias?
     
  4. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    You also have to remember, the BLS also includes resident salaries, which are almost 100K less than the average podiatrist salary. There are a little

    Also, there are some podiatrists that are part time instead of retiring, so that is reducing the salary.

    Also, remember that it was less than 10 years ago that pods could get by with a 2 year residency. This would result in lower salaries. Now that all pods have to do a 3 year surgical residency, the average pod salary is around the 130-150K mark. Even more from Hospitals, it isn't uncommon for the starting salary at a hospital to be 220K. Pods can make a lot of money for the hospital.
     
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  5. Robert De Niro

    Robert De Niro 5+ Year Member

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    While the examples you're mentioning do contribute to the low BLS stats, the biggest factor is the fact most pods are still private practice, and only report the income they give themselves and not the returns they receive from their small business (aka their practice)

    If I remember our business seminar correctly, in the state of Ohio s-corps can net up to $250k a year and are taxed free by the state. This would allow Docs to give themselves a lower salary, arbitrarily say $100k, which would then increase their gross, and eventually net income of the practice (again, their small business). This would allow them to see higher returns with little to no state tax on the money their practice (business) generates. In closing, pay state income tax on $100k and hopefully earn another generous amount from your practice (one last time, their business) that's already been taxed at a smaller rate, or in some states, not at all.

    Disclamer: I'm only 1 week into residency and only reporting what's been taught to us during our last month of school. If practicing pods have other examples, or even state my example is wrong, please comment as I'm always willing to learn more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  6. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    I wonder, can you make yourself an LLC/practice and still work for the hospital. Like make urself "foot and ankle surgeons of ______(insert city name)" technically just contract the business out the one employee (yourself) to a hospital, have your salary paid by the hospital as "net collections" for the business(let's say 250k) and/or any other moonlighting gig, and pay yourself 120k as a salaried employee of the company? Then the remaining 130k would be taxed at a lower rate (isn't it like 20% for business gains)?

     
  7. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    No


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  8. AttackNME

    AttackNME Podiatrist 10+ Year Member

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    All of the answers in this thread are discussing the wide range of salaries for podiatrists, but none (including this one) can answer why the different websites cite different averages. Is there anyone savvy enough to answer this question? I'm curious to know too! I agree with illbeadocsoon that the best answer (more of a speculation) is sample bias, obviously acfas would cite a higher average.
     
  9. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    Don't quote me on this, but I remember reading from somewhere the difference btw payscale, salary.com, and bls.gov.

    Payscale uses employer data, so the people giving those ranges would be hiring associates, so the average is a bit lower on average.

    Salary.com uses actual salaries, so it's a combination of associate, hospital, self employed, etc salaries. A much wider range. I feel that this is most accurate since it has the most to pull from.

    Bls uses tax forms to calculate the numbers, which as stated above can be lacking in accuracy if and when LLCs take bonuses and profit sharing into account. It would make sense then that bls would be lowest.


     
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  10. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    IMO the another really helpful resource to determine current trends in salary figures are what's produced by the MGMA (Physician Compensation Physician Salary and Productivity Survey Reports – Medical Doctors Salary – MGMA Survey - MGMA - MGMA)

    To buy the book is expensive. If you are a student rotating at a hospital for a clinical rotation you could try to get MGMA data for podiatry from the people in charge of physician recruitment at that hospital.


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  11. air bud

    air bud 7+ Year Member

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    This is really simple actually. If you work for a facility that has MDs it will be very fairly based on MGMA. If you work for a podiatrist it will be based on what you negotiate.
     
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  12. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    Just say no to working for DPMs

    They will rip you off and tell you their offer is "fair"



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  13. AnkleGuy

    AnkleGuy

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    Not everyone has "control" over where you work. If you're job hunting for 6 months all of the sudden you're getting desperate. Don't you think that the pods getting paid $70k per year haven't tried getting hospital jobs?
     
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  14. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    I agree especially in the larger cities, although I think that there are so many hospitals in rural areas out there that it shouldn't be too hard to get a job. Granted, it might be in an undesirable location like a small 10K town in rural Kentucky, but those are the ones that need providers and are willing to pay handsomely.
     
  15. air bud

    air bud 7+ Year Member

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    It's a free country. You have control. That doesn't mean there are not mitigating factors like family, personal interests, training, personality....

    And also to those of you with less than perfect grades and who didn't go to the Harvard if the Central Ohio Valley residency program, these jobs that pay well are available to you too. Nobody knows anything about our training when it comes to hospital administration. If you know how to debride nails and amputate a toe and have a great personality, there is no reason you are not a candidate for a 200k plus hospital based podiatrist job.
     
  16. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    Agreed. Have a family member that went to one of the "dreadful" podiatry residency programs and ended up getting a hospital job in town that pays 200k+. She only does like 2-3 surgeries per week.

    But to let everyone know, she was offered a job that paid 65k before finding this job. The job market for podiatry seems to be much more volatile than the MD market.

     
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  17. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    Everyone definitely has control over where they work..
     
  18. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    Don't job hunt for only 6 months. Duh


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  19. Sculptura

    Sculptura

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    I want to make this clear from the get-go: I am NOT anti-podiatry. Podiatrists make positive contributions to human well-being, and I have literally nothing but respect for them.

    This is NOT an anti-podiatry post, and I am not "trolling." I'm simply seeking answers.

    ---

    In order to become a podiatrist, you go to school for four years and then complete a three-year residency: seven years of training and $200K+ in debt.

    For a vast majority of pod school grads, the starting salary after residency is $80-100K tops. This salary is comparable to that of a new dentist, optometrist, and pharmacist... except dentists, optometrists, and pharmacists don't need to complete a three-year residency in order to achieve that income level.

    The salary that a podiatrist makes after seven years of graduate education and post-graduate training is comparable to that of a physician's assistant after two years of graduate training.

    Listen, I know that there's much more to choosing a career than just salary, but it honestly surprises me that people can go through seven years of stressful, life-consuming training only to make as much money as a physician's assistant.

    Is podiatry school really financially worth it?
     
  20. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    For some it is and some it isnt. If you make as much as a PA then no. If you make double, like a lot do, then yes... PAs also have to realize they place a ceiling over themselves from day 1. Their autonomy is limited and their income is limited. With podiatry, the only ceiling you have, financially, is what you place on yourself. You could make 80-100k or make 3x that.

    So to answer your question: it depends on how much you make
     
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  21. poditrained

    poditrained

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    Try using the search function/checking out the stickies over in the "Podiatric Residents and Physicians" page. There's a lot of current/accurate information regarding starting salaries.

    Based on what I've read, "80-100k tops" sounds pretty low and can be typically considered a worst case scenario. Bottom line is that Podiatry is worth it if you want it to be.


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  22. Sweatshirt

    Sweatshirt 2+ Year Member

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    I also agree with the poster above, 80-100K is really low. Do some reading over in the Residents and Physicians page. There's pods coming out of residency with salaries ranging from 120K, 150K and some even 200K plus
     
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  23. Sculptura

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    Based on what I've seen on the BLS website, Glassdoor, etc., the average salary for all podiatrists is $120K-130K, so starting salary would be lower than that... unless I'm missing something.

    Does the APMA public official data on this? If so, where is it? If not... why the heck not?

    I've honestly been considering the podiatry track -- but why would I slice through nail fungus and operate on oozing ulcers all day with $250K of debt over my head, all while making as much as a rookie PA or NP? Regardless of how fulfilling and important the job may be, it just doesn't make financial sense to me.

    (Again, I'm not hating on the podiatric profession. Just trying to figure things out.)
     
  24. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    You have a lot of shadowing and researching and googling to do
     
  25. Toadesque

    Toadesque 10+ Year Member

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    Why are you hung up on the starting salary out of residency as deciding factor? The worst offers I've seen in SATURATED markets were around that much for a new graduate, but in many states the offers are far higher and it's not as though someone is going to be locked into that salary for the entirety of their career.
     
  26. Nanocure

    Nanocure 2+ Year Member

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    First, this is a very smart question to ask. I firmly believe that the pod route to becoming a physician and surgeon makes the most financial sense for a very select group of people: those who took no gap years and those who know they'll be inheriting the jackpot once Papa falls over.

    I went straight through undergrad to pod school, which is a rarity in my class at least, and will be finished in just over a year from now. I study and take tests beside people who are 5-40 years older than me with kids and graduate degrees (that's all I'll gonna say about that).

    For ME personally I believe it will be worth it. All my student loans are eligible for PSLF so by the time I'm 36 I may be completely debt free and will likely be pushing $300K+ in salary (I will only accept a hospital job because they go by MGMA and start around $240K). Any MD, DPM, DO would love that trajectory 10 years post-grad. To sum it all up, if you know that the time/money/blood sweat tears won't crack it for YOU in this profession then RUN not walk away.

    At this stage, I rarely think about the money unless probed but I can say is that I am glad that I chose this profession (at the age of 17) because it is an awesome surgical subspecialty and I enjoy doing what we do on a daily basis.
     
  27. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    Which school are you at if you dont mind my asking?
     
  28. Adam Smasher

    Adam Smasher persona non grata 7+ Year Member

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    Is podiatry worth it compared to PA?
    This is going to sound very cynical and politically incorrect, but I'll say it anyway because this is my experience interacting with many (not all) PAs. The PA profession is great for people who want to clock in, do whatever repetitive scutty work the attending tells them to do, clock out, cash your paycheck, and repeat. If you don't want to feel obligated to go above and beyond for your patients in terms of learning, being a PA is sweet. Even if you do go above and beyond, you have to run it by your attending, because you're not the key decision maker, so why bother? And if you ever want a raise, guess what, there's always another hot 24-year-old blonde who can be trained to do your job in a matter of weeks.

    MD/DO/DPM: This is the right treatment because I've read the clinical evidence and this has been shown to work.
    PA: This is the right treatment because my attending says so.

    Yes, I have met hard-working, independent-thinking PAs who probably would have done better advancing their education, maybe that's even how they feel. It's a question of how much responsibility and how much independence do you want on the job.

    Is podiatry worth it compared to anything else?
    I don't know, probably not, or else various news magazines would be writing about podiatry as the #1 career choice. I actually think being a wound-care nurse is a pretty sweet gig once you stop getting grossed out by wounds.

    If you're concerned about finance, consider being a teacher
     
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  29. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    Great source haha no one is going to try and convince you to do podiatry or convince you its a hidden gold mine. The money is there if you work hard for it. For some its worth it and others its not. You can simply decide where you fall
     
  30. Weirdy

    Weirdy

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    You have not read enough on these forums to understand which sources are reliable or what sources you should be looking up salary structures for.
    And if you have them, then you are beating a dead horse you know has been rotting.
    Troll or not, take the time to research before you post questions that have been answered in detail.
    Podiatry is a pretty small circle.
     
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  31. Sculptura

    Sculptura

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    The "answers" on this forum have been across the board. Overly idealistic pod school students are quick to say they'll be starting at $180K/year, while current pods and residents share horror stories about talented new pods settling for $60K/year without benefits.

    It's very easy to dismiss people with the "do your research" line. I've been digging through the Internet for days, and I can't find a straight answer about podiatrist salary.

    Again, I'm not trolling... nor am I "beating a dead horse" (the horse is alive and well). I'm here to figure out if podiatry is a worthwhile investment.

    Would you mind sharing some of your "reliable sources" with me?
     
  32. Adam Smasher

    Adam Smasher persona non grata 7+ Year Member

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    The worst salary I encountered on my (exhaustive) job search was $85k with a bump to $100k+production bonus in year 2. Good jobs are out there, just avoid saturated markets and negotiate well.
     
  33. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    Weve said over and over now that there will be very high paying jobs and very low paying jobs. Thats the answer. Nothing deeper. There are pods making 80-100k and pods making 300k. Im sure they will each give a different answer as to if its financially worth it.
    Thats the answer. The salaries are all different. Some are high and some are low. Thats it
     
  34. CATSandKILOS

    CATSandKILOS 5+ Year Member

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    Have you thought about reaching out to a podiatrist in your area to shadow and discuss your concerns? Sometimes hearing it from the horses mouth is better. A lot of podiatry jobs go by word of mouth.

    We just had a practice management class today and the numbers we were given for averages are above those stated.
     
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  35. heybrother

    heybrother 5+ Year Member

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    If an inarticulate schizophrenic running the ugliest website in the world can convince you to avoid podiatry then I wish you the best in all your future non-podiatry endeavors. Stay strong. Try and marry someone with good judgement or money.
     
  36. AnkleGuy

    AnkleGuy

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    Well that is terrifying. Especially with all of the podiatrists in the comments agreeing with the article. But let's not kid ourselves. We aren't going to make a lot of money as podiatrists. Hospital jobs are probably the safest bets but those are very limited. It also makes sense with the residency shortage as well as the large drop in applicants in recent years. People use common sense. Why not go PA instead? You have to really love podiatry because the attractive pay to endure seven heavy years of training is just not there for the majority of podiatrists even though everyone is telling themselves that they'll be the one that'll be the statistical anomaly and make $170k+. To become a podiatrist you REALLY have to love it and you REALLY have to want to be a doctor. Some will make good money, but most will moderately get by for the rest of their lives and that's a reality. Unless they have rich parents to pay off their $250k loans lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  37. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    Dont fall for that website
    What is up with podpost.us?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
    Weirdy and I post PRN like this.
  38. bobtheweazel

    bobtheweazel 2+ Year Member

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    First of all, I wouldn't take any single persons anecdotal claims as the state of the profession. Let's look to the surveys.

    BLS is a flawed survey in my opinion. A.K.A., BLS is BS.

    BLS puts podiatrists at a mean of $136,180 and a median of $119,340.

    BLS also puts "physicians and surgeons" at a mean of $197,700 and a median of $187,200.

    BLS then goes on to quote the 2014 MGMA survey with median ranges by specialty from $221,419 (family medicine) up to $443,859 (anesthesiology). So if family medicine is just about the lowest paid specialty and they make $221,419 median, then how is BLS getting $187,200 as the median salary for ALL physicians and surgeons? Does anyone think that's a reasonable number for ALL physicians and surgeons?

    BLS is a joke. Their numbers are low for all types of doctors, podiatrists included.

    Podiatry Management 2016
    Median net income non-board certified: $108,750
    Median net income board certified: $151,750
    APMA 2015 Young Physician's Survey
    Mean net income after 1-5 years: $172,577
    Mean net income after 5-10 years: $199,585
    APMA 2014 Survey
    Mean net income: $183,000
    ACFAS 2015 (Surgical Organization)
    Mean base salary: $211,723
    Mean bonuses: $51,108
    MGMA 2015
    General podiatry mean after 8-12 years: $261,104
    Surgical podiatry mean after 8-12 years: $290,000

    I believe that Podiatry Management interpreted a lot of the survey data as newer podiatrists making relatively more compared to older existing podiatrists.

    Podiatrists

    Physicians and Surgeons, All Other

    Physicians and Surgeons : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  39. AnkleGuy

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    It is quite fishy how negative that website is towards podiatry, but regardless if it's fake or not, every pod I shadowed who mentioned anything about compensation or salaries complained to me that the money isn't there. Or at least how it used to be back in the day, and yet pod school tuition has risen up to the cost of MD's and DO's. As for me I don't expect to live the "doctor's lifestyle" (even though I'm a doctor!) with a nice house, a merc/corvette/bmw, and fancy vacations. But I do expect to live somewhat comfortable.
     
  40. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    This is the same for every profession in health care. Salaries have either gone down or remained stagnant while inflation continues to rise.
     
  41. AnkleGuy

    AnkleGuy

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    I've heard this too.
     
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  42. smurfeyD

    smurfeyD 2+ Year Member

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    Its definitely not the good old days of healthcare. However, its still a good life!
     
  43. bobtheweazel

    bobtheweazel 2+ Year Member

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    Yeah, decreasing reimbursements and increasing documentation requirements would impact you no matter what kind of doctor you are. The grass isn't necessarily greener anywhere else in medicine.

    Sent from my Pixel using SDN mobile
     
  44. Sweatshirt

    Sweatshirt 2+ Year Member

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    Did I miss something? People are citing podpost.us again??? Didn't we conclude in like 2013 that that website was 120% fake
     
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  45. Adam Smasher

    Adam Smasher persona non grata 7+ Year Member

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    As another poster on these forums remarked, there is truth on podpost.

    Yes, the site proprietor writes a lot of stupid articles, with the vocabulary and coherence one would expect of a 6th grader, and he has a psychiatric history, and he clearly has a vendetta against Barry Block (most likely for publicizing his license suspension as a result of his psychiatric illness...) along with several other prominent DPMs.

    But there are some open secrets in this profession and he's the only one willing to speak openly about them. If everything you learn about podiatry comes from APMA news releases and PM News, you're in for some disappointment. I suppose the moral of the story is don't believe any of them 100%, balance all the excessive negativity of podpost with the unrealistic optimism of other outlets. Rely on yourself to judge (which I guess means you should also disbelieve my post for good measure).
     
  46. DexterMorganSK

    DexterMorganSK SCPM C/0 2021

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    That's another function of SDN. You ask a question and it turns into another purple monkey dishwasher remark!
    I mean Bob has posted the MGMA (and others) data above in this thread, yet we see a salary/concern related ques almost a week now!
     
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  47. bobtheweazel

    bobtheweazel 2+ Year Member

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    We'll, if OP (sculptura) doesn't respond to the salary surveys I posted, which they asked for, then I'd have to assume they were in fact trolling. Which is yet another function of SDN, lol.

    Sent from my Pixel using SDN mobile
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  48. Weirdy

    Weirdy

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    PM'd them actual numbers I've gotten from my shadowing experiences.

    Havn't heard anything back.

    Pretty sure its the same member feigning dumb and having a little fun.
     
  49. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    Maybe if you were a practicing pod 20-30 years ago, you would just be doing nail fungus and ooze ulcers, but podiatry in the last 10 years has evolved into something very strange and very cool.

    Podiatrists get to experience both Orthopedic surgery (Bunioneictomies, hammertoes, ankle reconstruction) as well as primary care (diabetic wound care).

    More and more pods are becoming associated with big time orthopedic and hospital groups. This really wasn't the case ten years ago. Outside of MD/DO, POD is the safest bet you can make on a healthcare choice. What are the options? NP/PA? I have a feeling that docs are going to start pushing back. Optometry? They keep opening schools and new grads are hobbling together part time gigs, many can't crack the 100K mark. Pharmacy? Saturation. Dental? More like Debt-al.

     
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  50. AnkleGuy

    AnkleGuy

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    I think my post and old OP's post got merged. Who are you talking to
     

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