Backing out

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DocToad

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Hey all,

I know this is a crazy question, but I entered into the Army HPSP for a one year scholarship. I was defferred to civilian residency and now having second thoughts. Eventhough I will most likely stay in anyway, is there a out clause? In other words, can I pay back all that the Army paid and then be free of commitment?

I didn't expect to have second thoughts, but here I am! I am sure it is simply a fleeting thing, but I want to know all of my options.

Thanks to all!

Doctoad
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A very interesting question. I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it here yet.

Yes, there is an "out" but it isn't easy. There are 2 ways that this can occur.

#1. The military decides they don't want/need you. This may be due to medical reasons (i.e., you develop some disqualifying medical condition), staffing needs (they decide they just don't need any more docs -- not likely), they find out you're moonlighting at a gay escort service, etc. If that's the case, they let you go scott free with no financial obligation. I have known one person who was dumped from HPSP in her 4th year of med school for medical reasons -- initially they told her she'd have to pay everything back but eventually they just let her go.

#2. If you just decide you want out, and you make a big enough fuss about it, they may let you out, BUT you will have to pay back everything, PLUS a "penalty," which really jacks up the financial cost, probably to a greater extent than you would have incurred just by taking out student loans. I have known 2 people who have done this. They started HPSP in med school, then decided they wanted out. HOWEVER, they were still in school when this happened, not already graduated and in residency. The further along you are in the process of becoming a doc, the less inclined the military will be to let you go, as they have invested more time and $$ in you. If you go this route, be prepared for a long, hard fight.
 
I have heard, but have no documentation, that you will be expected to pay back triple what the military paid in for your education. Also, medical might get you out, though I can hardly think of any conditions that wouldn't be waiverable to still work in a clinic to fulfill your time. As for the "I'm suddenly a homosexual" thing, I'v eheard they'll often sting you for the triple payback, plus they'll likely make you prove it...I personally know Doctors who won't even entertain someone's newfound sexuality without photographic proof. That drastically cuts down on people wasting our time trying to get out of their commitments for free. Medical is often the first place the command sends people, and I've developed a very bad taste for it.

It's a good point to make on this board, so I'll take it easy here. However, you took the scholarship and you're a responsible adult, there was no requirement that you sign the line. You'd be backing out on your country in a time of war, and you'll have to live with that decision forever. More directly relevent to your pocket, it's a big cost. Also, if you fight hard to get out without good reason, you could easily get an "other than honorable" or even just a "general" discharge. This follows you forever on job applications, and there are a lot of veterans out there who would look upon this unfavorably. I personally would never hire someone with an OTH, and not even a general without a REALLY good explanation. And second thoughts don't can't as a good reason.

You only owe 2 years for a 1 year scholarship, halfway through you'd be sending out resumes. You have a chance to be board certified and have experience under your belt when applying, certainly helping you over other new graduates. Start negotiating with the detailer early, and find a decent job. You'll be thankful in the long run that you honored your commitment. Just my $.02 from the other side.
DD
 
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Divedoc,

Your friends are commiting some pretty serious blatant disregard for treatment of those individuals by asking for proof. Only with SECNAV approval can someone investigate and ask for proof. That is not a decision for someone's "Doc" to say show me proof.
 
Originally posted by bucasiabeach
Divedoc,

Your friends are commiting some pretty serious blatant disregard for treatment of those individuals by asking for proof. Only with SECNAV approval can someone investigate and ask for proof. That is not a decision for someone's "Doc" to say show me proof.
Click to expand...

How does one prove it?:eek:
 
Oh simple. Its just a little in and out procedure. No beating around the bush so to say.
 
When I was on active duty in 2001, all it took for the Army to discharge you was for you to claim to be gay. After the murder of the gay soldier on Ft. Campbell, the Army was exceedingly paranoid about that happening again and tended to err on the side of caution and just discharge anyone didn't pass the "don't ask-don't tell" policy.

To the OP: you made a committment. Have some honor and see it through. During the 4 years I spent in the Infantry all I wanted was to go back home and go to college/medical school like all my friends were doing - but I sucked it up and I'm a far better person today for it.
 
There was an AF cat who tried the sudden homosexual epiphany trick just after completing med school a few years ago. The irony is that the policy is don't ask, don't TELL. But anyway, they converted his obligation to PHS and he trooped off to an indian reservation as a GP in what you'd have to call remote duty. I think he did a civilian internship only prior to his payback. This was 97-98 or so.
 
I'm in myth-buster mode.

I've often heard about this "triple" payback. I'm not sure if it was the recruiter that first mentioned this to me or not, but I know that I've heard it frequently over the years from a variety of sources. This is a total myth! There is no such thing as triple payback, triple interest, penalties, etc. The regulations are clear and are based on Title 10 USC (United States Code). I'll summarize the REAL deal.

If you are relieved of your HPSP or FAP obligations for homosexuality, hardship, conscientious objector, and some other miscellaneous reasons, you MAY be required to repay the amount that they actually provided for your education. This means tuition, books, and fees. If they require payback, you will be charged a reasonable interest rate on the balance beginning the date that they determine your payback obligation.

More myths...The interest DOESN'T work retroactively to the date you entered HPSP. They CAN'T require payback of the stipend you received or the acitve duty pay from your 45-day tours.
 
All of this law stuff is kind of a hobby of mine...

The policy on homosexuality is also pretty clear. As mentioned, the catch-phrase is "don't ask, don't tell." The mere statement that one has participated or thought about participating in homosexual acts is enough for separation from military service.

One catch...if you admit to homosexual acts, you can be prosecuted under the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) since sodomy and homosexuality is illegal. So, if you are thinking about having this "epiphany", you should be careful and only admit to having thoughts or the desire to participate in homosexual activity.

Once again, all of the services have their own regulations dealing with this issue, but they are all based on Title 10 USC.
 
Thanks for the myth busting, I've never seen anything in writing one way or the other. As for the Photographic proof, I've never made anyone in my office supply it, but it apparently significantly cut down the traffic to the other Doc's offices. I always let the JAG officer or the Master Chief deal with it, it's not a medical issue.
The Master Chiefs simply pick up the phone and call the sailor's father, then put the guy on the phone to come out to his Dad. Usually, the sailor says hi to his Dad, quickly gets off the phone and doesn't bother the chain of command again. That works pretty well.
Even if you are homosexual, I'd say keep your mouth shut and fulfill your obligation, no one cares what you do in your spare time. Don't get the OTH or General discharge albatross around your neck, it isn't worth it.
DD
 
I'm glad someone initiated this post, because I frequently have lunches w/prospective students at my school, and often talk about the HPSP scholarship. People ask me what would happen if they had a change of heart, and I tell them that depending on what they do/say to try to get out of their obligation, it could either be paying everything back or something as bad as a court marshall. But I really had no idea.....I just wanted to impress upon them that this is a MAJOR life altering decision, not something to be taken lightly. The benefits are great, and I tend to get very excited when I talk about the scholarship and the military, but I try to be sure and also say that this is NOT for everyone, and a LOT of consideration should be given before signing the dotted line.

The whole homosexual deal---i don't know how the other branches are, but I had to sign a form that I attested to never having been in a same sex relationship, never having attempted to marry a person of the same sex, and 7 or 8 other items about not being gay. I have several things to say about this in general. If you say you are gay to get out of the military, they could potentially look back to see if you had any homosexual activity prior to signing that paper, in which case you have committed fraud. That would be very very bad for the military to find out. Then, even if you say that you were just thinking you were gay, or having feelings, and trying to use THAT to get out of the military---I believe that even that is taking away from the very real circumstance of a young person who really has that internal struggle going on. Pretending to be something you are not is a bad idea. Don't pretend to be gay if you aren't. On the flip side of that, it is SO unfortunate that our military thinks there is something wrong w/being gay in the first place, which necessitates our gay servicemembers to pretend they are straight!! Personally, I don't care if my entire base is gay!! It has no affect on me whatsoever.

Anyway.....Doctoad....my advice is to serve your time and be done w/it. You did make a committment, and your country is counting on you.
 
Originally posted by DoctorInSpace

The whole homosexual deal---i don't know how the other branches are, but I had to sign a form that I attested to never having been in a same sex relationship, never having attempted to marry a person of the same sex, and 7 or 8 other items about not being gay.
Click to expand...

I had to sign a similar document.
 
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Not to Hijack this thread, but Andrew- if you were in a MDPhD program, didn't you have your whole way paid during med school? Or is this a committment left over from undergrad or you did you get your PhD Seperately?
 
Originally posted by Goober
Not to Hijack this thread, but Andrew- if you were in a MDPhD program, didn't you have your whole way paid during med school? Or is this a committment left over from undergrad or you did you get your PhD Seperately?
Click to expand...

Yes, I had my medical school paid for. I signed up when I matched for ophthalmology because I wanted to pursue a military career. ;)

I joined via the FAP program:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62983
 
I have recently signed an ARMY HPSP contract and I was not totally sure about it after I signed it. Therefore I talked to a good friend of mine who is a navy recruiter. He told me that like all other military contracts, the first year of the HPSP contract is obligation free. Untill you go to OBC you can opt out, just like an enlisted man can drop out of basic training and have no comitments. I then called my recruiter and he relunctantly confirmed this fact.

I know that this doesn't apply to most of you participating in this thread but I thought that this information may be of some use to somebody.
 
The first year being obligation free in military contracts means that you don't have to pay anything back, you get a year of school free. This was a NAVY recruiter and his experience who confirmed this, it's not my opinion or personal experience on the issue.
 
Look at your HPSP contract, there is nothing in there about the "first year out option". I don't buy it. I saw a huge number of disgruntled SUbmariners in their first year of Naval service who were trying there hardest to just get out. True, if they became a big enough pain in the ass they were administratively separated with a general discharge, but not without some serious pain and a lot of administrative time delay. There was no "oh, you changed your mind, here's your Bus ticket".
Try it during your 4th year of med school on that one year contract, and it's unlikely that you'd be eligible for the NRMP...even if they ley you out, someone will drag the paperwork and be sure that you pay, one way or another. Suck it up, you signed on the line.
 
I'm glad this post is up, because not only is it providing some good information, but for people who are uncertain about the scholarship who are reading this, I believe they will take some extra time to make a final decision before signing their life away. This is a huge, life changing decision, that should not be entered into lightly.

I hope that people who are considering this scholarship are getting that message from these posts. I'm sure it is very difficult to be at a place where you want to back out of a contract, knowing there will be some consequences. I feel bad for those who want out and I would hate for more people to get into that situation.

Talk to people who are doing this, learn the benefits as well as the down side, and make an educated decision.
 
I'm glad this post is up, as well. Weigh all of the pros and cons, there are many of each, but in the end stick with your decision. You're an adult, honor your word and fulfill your contractual obligation, don't back out because of some alleged first year "out clause". You'll regret that decision more than you could possibly regret the 2 years of active duty you owe. That General discharge will follow you for the rest of your life, and you won't be hired by my private practice group. Think long term both before and after you sign on the line.
DD
 
A general discharge isn't the albatross that you make it out to be. And unless you require someone to actually show you their DD-214, you'll never know their Character of Service. I can honestly say that I have never, ever been asked about my Character of Service. I have three different DD-214's and an NGB-55 that have never been out of the file cabinet.

I have been affiliated with the military for 15 years now (since I was 18) and until recently, I had similar views on living up to your committment. In the end, I have come to the conclusion that the "system" is broken...Recruiters lie, cheat, and steal to get everyone inducted...The entrance physical exam is a joke. It's basically a rubber stamp since the MEPS Command will ignore even the most serious medical conditions just to medically qualify you for duty...And don't even get me started on the Assignment Matching System.

The last time that I entered Active Duty, I was already living in a town that had a huge demand for flight surgeons. I wanted to stay there and made that fact known to the assigment officer. The base in that town let the assigment people know that they really wanted me too. When I got my assignment somewhere else, I figured that they just needed me more there and accepted it. Well, when I got to flight surgeon school, I met the two people that got assigned where I wanted to go...neither of them wanted to go there...and one of them never even turned in an assignment preference sheet (rank list). WTF? How's that for a kick in jimmy. Whenever they have the option of making someone happy or screwing them, you better hope that you've got a tube of KY handy. Then they wonder why there's a retention problem. Gee, it baffles me.

I think that if someone has second thoughts and can find a way out, good for them. The cards are stacked against them from the onset, so why not get out if they decide they don't want to be there. I am very proud that I have been able to serve my country in different capacities for the entirety of my adult life, but there's only so much bull**** that one can put up with before becoming so disillusioned that you recognize you need out.
 
The horror stories are everywhere, I know it will be my turn soon enough. I'm not suggesting that these people have to stay in forever, but they received a significant amount of money for an expected amount of service. I would hope people would have the decency and the character to honor that contract. Do your time, get out and move on with your life. Sure the recruiters lie and detailers make unbelievably stupid assignment decisions, that's the system, unfortunately. HPSP folks signed into that system, so they need to make the most of it. It's not like they haven't gained anything from the military, a year or more of med school is a big chunk of money. The boot camp analogy is not appropriate, for those few weeks all that sailor got was a sea bag of clothes and a few meals. What pisses me off now are all the wheels turning in people's heads about ditching their HPSP contract at the 1 year point, having "second thoughts". The main point was that there is NO financial obligation if you leave at the one year point. Something for nothing, screw the military. Suckweasels (spit).

I doubt I'll stay after my oligation is over, because the system is so broken. I've signed on again for training after weighing all of the options, and I realize my payback tours will likely be in Guam or Iceland or some other place I'd never voluntarily live. That's the price I will have to pay to improve my lifestyle as a resident, and I accept that. Will I be disgruntled and pissed off...probably. WIll I seek a way out and work the system to shortchange my obligation...absolutely not.

Enough preaching, I've said what I need to. By the way, if it's my practice looking for an employee, I will ask for a DD214. I'm sure it's not common, but a General can only hurt, not help.

Respectfully submitted,
DD
 
Originally posted by Navy Dive Doc
I saw a huge number of disgruntled SUbmariners in their first year of Naval service who were trying there hardest to just get out.

The obligation free year is not in the first year of service it is on the first year of the contract. In the HPSP case it is in your first year of medical school not your first year of payback.
Click to expand...
 
I won't argue whether it's possible or not, it just pisses me off that people will take advantage of it. My argument stands.
 
Amen Dive Doc!! I agree wholeheartedly.

I've been perusing the boards for quite awhile and usually don't reply, but I must voice my opinion on this topic.

I often ask who held the gun the one's head, forcing one to sign into a contract, such as HPSP or general military service. The draft isn't in effect. If you sign on the dotted line, be a man and serve your time. Those who tried to weasel their way out of contracts show a level of irresponsibility and lack of accountability that is unfortunately common is our current America culture. Seems many will sell out honor and integrity for selfishness. I've been in the Navy for 14 years, several years enlisted, more years as an officer, flew jets, was even a detailer (an assignments officers for the non-Navy folks), and am now in med school on HPSP. I believe the point at which most folks get sour on the military is when they become inflexible. They only want to go to one place and if that falls through, they curse the military, get sour, and make everyone around them miserable, stating how hard they got screwed. I was stationed in Japan for 3 years, I volunteered to go as 2 slots where assigned to my flight training class. Either 2 folks volunteer or 2 will be chosen. I volunteered and the other guy was "forced to". He complained to no end, showed up to the squadron still complaining, it fell on deaf ears, almost labeled him as a "non-team player" (I know a few readers will jump on this point, but get over it, that's reality), but within 2 months he was loving Japan and glad he came here. This occurred over and over as new officers/enlisted showed up who were "forced" to take orders to Japan.

So if you get "sent" somewhere you didn't want to go to, the sooner you get over it the better. Bitching and making others around you miserable only makes you look bad. You signed the contract, no one forced you. Be a man, be responsible for your actions, serve your time, and get out. Oh, one last point, it sure is easy to blame the recruiters and detailers, claiming all lied and screwed you. Unfortunately, there are a few who do, but they are definitely the minority. Simply a weaselly way to throw blame on someone else and off your own shoulders.

Semper Gumbi
 
Originally posted by ToddE
Amen Dive Doc!! I agree wholeheartedly.

I've been perusing the boards for quite awhile and usually don't reply, but I must voice my opinion on this topic.

I often ask who held the gun the one's head, forcing one to sign into a contract, such as HPSP or general military service. The draft isn't in effect. If you sign on the dotted line, be a man and serve your time. Those who tried to weasel their way out of contracts show a level of irresponsibility and lack of accountability that is unfortunately common is our current America culture. Seems many will sell out honor and integrity for selfishness. I've been in the Navy for 14 years, several years enlisted, more years as an officer, flew jets, was even a detailer (an assignments officers for the non-Navy folks), and am now in med school on HPSP. I believe the point at which most folks get sour on the military is when they become inflexible. They only want to go to one place and if that falls through, they curse the military, get sour, and make everyone around them miserable, stating how hard they got screwed. I was stationed in Japan for 3 years, I volunteered to go as 2 slots where assigned to my flight training class. Either 2 folks volunteer or 2 will be chosen. I volunteered and the other guy was "forced to". He complained to no end, showed up to the squadron still complaining, it fell on deaf ears, almost labeled him as a "non-team player" (I know a few readers will jump on this point, but get over it, that's reality), but within 2 months he was loving Japan and glad he came here. This occurred over and over as new officers/enlisted showed up who were "forced" to take orders to Japan.

So if you get "sent" somewhere you didn't want to go to, the sooner you get over it the better. Bitching and making others around you miserable only makes you look bad. You signed the contract, no one forced you. Be a man, be responsible for your actions, serve your time, and get out. Oh, one last point, it sure is easy to blame the recruiters and detailers, claiming all lied and screwed you. Unfortunately, there are a few who do, but they are definitely the minority. Simply a weaselly way to throw blame on someone else and off your own shoulders.

Semper Gumbi
Click to expand...

:thumbup:

Outstanding post!
 
Originally posted by Navy Dive Doc
The horror stories are everywhere, I know it will be my turn soon enough. I'm not suggesting that these people have to stay in forever, but they received a significant amount of money for an expected amount of service. I would hope people would have the decency and the character to honor that contract.

Respectfully submitted,
DD
Click to expand...

This reminded me of my visit to the recruiter last year (I was already in HPSP at the time). They've got pictures of all these high school kids, their future MOS and their incentive. It kills me. Some of these kids were signing up five years and getting $5000. We've got it great compared to them.

Ed
 
Originally posted by Homunculus
i wholeheartedly agree.

as a sidenote, we now know who exactly those a-hole detailers are that militarymd keeps talking about :D just kidding :) again, great post.
Click to expand...

You bet, my constituants (those I detailed) think I'm a law student in New Hampshire.;)

Fortunately I've had good detailers and did my best to be a great detailer, but I had the most difficulty with those who were inflexible and had a "wallet sized view of the big picture." And there's those who will always find something to complain about, even if given the most primo orders in the military.....to all, when you hear someone complaining, take it for face value. Some complaints are valid, our military isn't perfect by a long stretch, but it's pretty damn good. But much is simply complaining by those prone to complain due to personality.

Back to studying US Code. ;)
 
Originally posted by ToddE


If you sign on the dotted line, be a man and serve your time.
Click to expand...

Or be a woman and serve your time....;)
 
Originally posted by FliteSurgn
I'm in myth-buster mode.

I've often heard about this "triple" payback. I'm not sure if it was the recruiter that first mentioned this to me or not, but I know that I've heard it frequently over the years from a variety of sources. This is a total myth! There is no such thing as triple payback, triple interest, penalties, etc. The regulations are clear and are based on Title 10 USC (United States Code). I'll summarize the REAL deal.

If you are relieved of your HPSP or FAP obligations for homosexuality, hardship, conscientious objector, and some other miscellaneous reasons, you MAY be required to repay the amount that they actually provided for your education. This means tuition, books, and fees. If they require payback, you will be charged a reasonable interest rate on the balance beginning the date that they determine your payback obligation.

More myths...The interest DOESN'T work retroactively to the date you entered HPSP. They CAN'T require payback of the stipend you received or the acitve duty pay from your 45-day tours.
Click to expand...

I've heard that the interest is around 20%, roughly like a credit card.
 
Originally posted by Masonator
I've heard that the interest is around 20%, roughly like a credit card.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine just got out of his deal without a cent of interest.

Ed
 
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