Bad news for UMDNJ students?

[cpants]

http://www.newswise.com/articles/um...artnership-to-assist-students-training-in-n-j

The University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey (UMDNJ) and St. George’s University School of Medicine, Grenada, West Indies, announced today that they are negotiating a partnership agreement under which UMDNJ would actively collaborate in the education and training of third- and fourth-year St. George’s medical students in rotations at New Jersey hospitals. UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School will assume the lead role for the University in developing and executing this agreement.

Downfall of UMDNJ or a good way to control the caribbean infiltration of NJ hospitals?

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[RapplixGmed]

As long as this doesn't displace existing UMDNJ students, this is probably a good thing. Their students should petition to have the funds received go towards subsidizing their tuition. I would be totally for allowing carribean students to train at my institution if I got 2 free years out of it.

 

[searun]

As long as this doesn't displace existing UMDNJ students, this is probably a good thing. Their students should petition to have the funds received go towards subsidizing their tuition. I would be totally for allowing carribean students to train at my institution if I got 2 free years out of it.

Your tuition will never be lower. Never going happen. Personally, I think it is a bad idea - makes the medical school seem like it is willing to sell its soul for a quick buck, definitely lowers the US med school's reputation.

 

[Miscbrah]

Your tuition will never be lower. Never going happen. Personally, I think it is a bad idea - makes the medical school seem like it is willing to sell its soul for a quick buck, definitely lowers the US med school's reputation.

if it will improve the clinical training of caribbean medical students, then i'm all for it. the reason caribbean medical education is looked down on is because their education is inferior to ours. any steps taken to improve that without hurting existing US medical students should be encouraged.

 

[Hah]

I have a feeling UMDNJ will get broken up fairly soon so this maybe moot.

 

[mlw47]

With any luck, RWJMS and the School of Public Health will be broken off into Rutgers (but RWJ would still keep its name) in 12 mo time. UMDNJ is a misnomer, it's not only a university on paper. It's really 8 individual schools with no beneficial ties to each other.

 

[hopeinternist]

The state of NJ has always failed to serve its own residents especially when it comes to medical education. Whether it be terrible wastage of funds across the entire UMDNJ network, uneven tuition hikes or not initiating a sensible system for students to declare in state residency for tuition purposes ( what other state with over a $10 billion budget deficit allows out of state students to save tens of thousands of dollars per year ( by paying instate tuition) after the first year without any sort of contract to repay the state??@#%%)

I m all for working together to reduce tuition across medical schools around the country, but when you live in a state your whole life and plan to work as a physician there, its very frustrating to watch out of state students use NJ for their medical education, take advantage of the low tuition and leave after they graduate. All this does is raise tuition for everyone and especially screws over actual NJ medical students since the medical schools gets less money from the state for graduating fewer physicians who actually want to stay and work to reduce the the projected physician shortage in NJ.

Now onto the Caribbean news.. wonderful.. seeing as how they re facing quite the situation over rotation sites in NYS..why not hop over into NJ and try to screw over some more students who actually went through the system ,go to medical school in the U.S. and plan to come back for rotations to their home state. The article is also quite vague, which is somewhat scarier as to what exactly this committee is trying to achieve, but either way theres enough pre meds/medical students in the tri state area.. go somewhere else. The dean of NJMS mentions increasing the number of physicians to increase the physician supply for the entire state. If this means something along the lines of rotation sites for SGU in exchange for 5 years of practice in the state (along the lines of OU-COMs 5 year contract) I might be in support for that.

I m not here to question the quality of graduates from the Caribbean, but if they have enough money to buy out/(outbid U.S. schools) hospitals for rotation sites.. why not focus on improving/creating quality rotations in the Caribbean..and eventually proving to residency PDs in the U.S. that you can complete a full professional competent medical education in one place and be just as good if not better than a U.S. MD/DO. Just a thought.

 

[DocEspana]

As long as this doesn't displace existing UMDNJ students, this is probably a good thing. Their students should petition to have the funds received go towards subsidizing their tuition. I would be totally for allowing carribean students to train at my institution if I got 2 free years out of it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA. And your dean will fly down on his Pegasus to personally deliver you access to his secret stripper factory and beer volcano.

In all seriousness: NYS for the last 4 years has been a testing grounds for this from SGU. They greatly increased their enrollment, which lead to an obvious increase in clinical training demand. Rather than seek new locations across america, they purchased an entire medical system that was highly utilized by american students. It wasn't even like they put 'some' students in. They put in more students than there were room, leading to american students losing their spots. This then snowballed terribly fast as Ross and AUC tried to compete by doing the same thing at isolated private hospitals. NY schools boiled over with rage. We went crying to our mommies, and now there is legislation being made by the state which will begin cutting back the offshore students to pre-2008 numbers (aka: still plenty, just no longer displacing locally trained students, and limiting in-state school growth)

I didn't read the article all that closely (since im mostly listening to DiT video lectures right now), but it looks extremely vague. and vague was how the NY-HHC deal got done. If they don't displace american students, then cool for them. It is possible. But I find the odds about the same as the odds of dean + unicorn + key to a pastafarian nirvana. It is far too lucrative for St. George's to ever cut down on class size, and as long as that is the case, they will have 600 clinical students, per class, trying to fit into a system that, in 2007, was supporting about 200 students. They have all the room they need now in NYC, but I think they see the writing is on the wall and they need a new place to put that extra 400 (I guess 800 if we're doing both years) students to now that they face a decently severe cutback in the next couple years in NY. I can't imagine it will end differently for NJ than it did for NY. It snowballs out of control very quickly and US schools aren't used to having to respond to this bargaining and buying game.

Obvious but necessary addendum/warranter: The students from the carib who make it to the US, from my experience, seem like great students. But the system they come from is deeply flawed and somewhat predatory (not referring to on the island, I mean in their clinical acquisitions). I hate the ethics they've shown in NYC and NY in general. This isn't about the students in any direct way.

Full disclosure: I wrote the MSSNY policy and am involved with the NY legislation's writing. I clearly am a massively biased and involved source. I consider myself fair and factual, but feel free to douse me and my comments in salt. Whatever.

 

[DocEspana]

Actually I just read that a bit closer.... they might also be trying to create a clinical oversight committee. Well obviously, since that's what they said they were making. But I mean to point out that three of the major reasons why the LCME will not accredit the school (and the school has petitioned for it multiple times) is that:

1) it's not in the US. Gotta start with the easy, obvious ones. But this is not actually a requirement for LCME accreditation since they technically are 'Dual campus'. They built administration buildings in the US to qualify for LCME accreditation. Technically they do qualify, but I don't think the LCME cares if they followed the word of the requirement, but not the spirit.

2) They are for-profit. The other easy one. I dont see this every changing. which is why I am suprised they'd try to accomplish number...

3) they don't have a formal quality control and curriculum evaluation for the clinical years. This would give them that.

St. George's figures if they are LCME accredited they are immune to any shenanigans people like myself try to pull when we define schools as either American (specifically: LCME or COCA) vs foreign. And they're right. If the LCME recognized them, it would get around other standing rules on foreign schools (and it would impress the hell out of me. Honestly). But I don't think this will get them any closer, but it occurred to me that this may be part of the reason they're approaching it the way they are. To get more spots in jersey and to appease the LCME's requirement for a true, controlled, clinical curriculum at the same time.

 

[Ok2Panic]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA. And your dean will fly down on his Pegasus to personally deliver you access to his secret stripper factory and beer volcano.

I knew I should have gone to school in New Jersey! First MMA, now stripper factories and beer volcanoes. Damn.

 

[cpants]

Just to play the devil's advocate, maybe this is a good thing for UMDNJ. Instead of letting the Caribbeans buy spots out from under them hospital by hospital, they take the cash and agree to manage their clinical experiences in Jersey. They can control who goes where, preserving key spots for their own students and pocketing the cash. In exchange SGU gets some added legitimacy for their program and possibly some residency contacts for students.

 

[Gavanshir]

A lot of the above posts demonstrate the attitude of elitism and prejudice based on unfounded perceptions that are widespread among the premed and medical student community. Would you raise the same questions if students from the recently established Hofstra or let's say a DO school like Touro from New York were rotating with UMDNJ?

SGU has been steadily providing well-trained physicians to the US since 1979 and has a wide network of top physicians on the East coast and particularly in the tri-state area. Its students receive top quality education from world renowned visiting professors and have the opportunity to gain an international aspect of medical education.

SGU has also been bailing out underfunded NY and NJ hospitals for years now and it is about time that US medical schools acknowledge the value of SGU's role in the US. This new agreement will benefit both UMDNJ and SGU students by increasing spots, funding and quality of education that UMDNJ students receive as well. SGU is a well-funded university and it does not fail to invest in the future of its students. This is the best thing that could have happened to a struggling university like UMDNJ and depending on the details of the agreement, should see a lot of investments coming its way.

I would encourage all of you future physicians to learn early on to shed narrow-minded perceptions because you'll soon find that your colleagues, attendings and program directors will likely be IMGs, from the Caribbean or not.

 

[Slack3r]

the state of nj has always failed as a state.

ftfy.

 

[VoiceofReason]

A lot of the above posts demonstrate the attitude of elitism and prejudice based on unfounded perceptions that are widespread among the premed and medical student community. Would you raise the same questions if students from the recently established Hofstra or let's say a DO school like Touro from New York were rotating with UMDNJ?

SGU has been steadily providing well-trained physicians to the US since 1979 and has a wide network of top physicians on the East coast and particularly in the tri-state area. Its students receive top quality education from world renowned visiting professors and have the opportunity to gain an international aspect of medical education.

SGU has also been bailing out underfunded NY and NJ hospitals for years now and it is about time that US medical schools acknowledge the value of SGU's role in the US. This new agreement will benefit both UMDNJ and SGU students by increasing spots, funding and quality of education that UMDNJ students receive as well. SGU is a well-funded university and it does not fail to invest in the future of its students. This is the best thing that could have happened to a struggling university like UMDNJ and depending on the details of the agreement, should see a lot of investments coming its way.

I would encourage all of you future physicians to learn early on to shed narrow-minded perceptions because you'll soon find that your colleagues, attendings and program directors will likely be IMGs, from the Caribbean or not.

SGU sux

 

[cpants]

A lot of the above posts demonstrate the attitude of elitism and prejudice based on unfounded perceptions that are widespread among the premed and medical student community. Would you raise the same questions if students from the recently established Hofstra or let's say a DO school like Touro from New York were rotating with UMDNJ?

SGU has been steadily providing well-trained physicians to the US since 1979 and has a wide network of top physicians on the East coast and particularly in the tri-state area. Its students receive top quality education from world renowned visiting professors and have the opportunity to gain an international aspect of medical education.

SGU has also been bailing out underfunded NY and NJ hospitals for years now and it is about time that US medical schools acknowledge the value of SGU's role in the US. This new agreement will benefit both UMDNJ and SGU students by increasing spots, funding and quality of education that UMDNJ students receive as well. SGU is a well-funded university and it does not fail to invest in the future of its students. This is the best thing that could have happened to a struggling university like UMDNJ and depending on the details of the agreement, should see a lot of investments coming its way.

I would encourage all of you future physicians to learn early on to shed narrow-minded perceptions because you'll soon find that your colleagues, attendings and program directors will likely be IMGs, from the Caribbean or not.

1. UMDNJ is not a struggling university that was waiting on a carribean bailout.
2. Colleagues and attendings maybe. Program directors...not so much.

 

[hopeinternist]

A lot of the above posts demonstrate the attitude of elitism and prejudice based on unfounded perceptions that are widespread among the premed and medical student community. Would you raise the same questions if students from the recently established Hofstra or let's say a DO school like Touro from New York were rotating with UMDNJ?

SGU has been steadily providing well-trained physicians to the US since 1979 and has a wide network of top physicians on the East coast and particularly in the tri-state area. Its students receive top quality education from world renowned visiting professors and have the opportunity to gain an international aspect of medical education.

SGU has also been bailing out underfunded NY and NJ hospitals for years now and it is about time that US medical schools acknowledge the value of SGU's role in the US. This new agreement will benefit both UMDNJ and SGU students by increasing spots, funding and quality of education that UMDNJ students receive as well. SGU is a well-funded university and it does not fail to invest in the future of its students. This is the best thing that could have happened to a struggling university like UMDNJ and depending on the details of the agreement, should see a lot of investments coming its way.

I would encourage all of you future physicians to learn early on to shed narrow-minded perceptions because you'll soon find that your colleagues, attendings and program directors will likely be IMGs, from the Caribbean or not.

SGU can take its philanthropy elsewhere. If it means that I cant find rotations anywhere in my home state and end up in Ohio to scramble for positions, please send SGU students to a state that actually needs students to rotate at hospitals. Like I said before, NJ has more than enough pre meds and budding doctors competing for acceptances, rotation spots and of course residencies. Why not set up partnership with another for profit medical school..um Rocky Vista comes to mind..

I dont know see where any of the previous posters questioned the quality of graduates from the caribs, and I would be more than happy to work with a competent professional physician ( no matter where he/she graduated from).

 

[Gavanshir]

SGU can take its philanthropy elsewhere. If it means that I cant find rotations anywhere in my home state and end up in Ohio to scramble for positions, please send SGU students to a state that actually needs students to rotate at hospitals. Like I said before, NJ has more than enough pre meds and budding doctors competing for acceptances, rotation spots and of course residencies. Why not set up partnership with another for profit medical school..um Rocky Vista comes to mind..

I dont know see where any of the previous posters questioned the quality of graduates from the caribs, and I would be more than happy to work with a competent professional physician ( no matter where he/she graduated from).

To say that this agreement will displace US medical students is a false notion, it's a scare-tactic used by certain politicians with something at stake as an excuse to drive away Caribbean medstudents altogether. No medical school would sign an agreement that would displace ITS OWN students from rotations.

The topic of SGU students in NY has been discussed thoroughly on another thread, not a single medstudent came forward saying that they have been displaced, it simply isn't realistic. SGU has in the past clearly that even the agreements with private NY hospitals have always given priority to the local students for spots.

I'm a New Jersey resident and couldn't be happier about this agreement as it'll improve my chances for returning to my state to practice.

 

[cpants]

To say that this agreement will displace US medical students is a false notion, it's a scare-tactic used by certain politicians with something at stake as an excuse to drive away Caribbean medstudents altogether. No medical school would sign an agreement that would displace ITS OWN students from rotations.

The topic of SGU students in NY has been discussed thoroughly on another thread, not a single medstudent came forward saying that they have been displaced, it simply isn't realistic. SGU has in the past clearly that even the agreements with private NY hospitals have always given priority to the local students for spots.

I'm a New Jersey resident and couldn't be happier about this agreement as it'll improve my chances for returning to my state to practice.

You don't have to physically displace a student to dilute their education, but I have seen several posters say that spots are now unavailable for them in NYC due to caribbean students buying the spots. Everyone understands why you are happy about this. It is good for you and SGU. You don't seem to understand why UMDNJ or NY students would be unhappy about this.

 

[DocEspana]

The topic of SGU students in NY has been discussed thoroughly on another thread, not a single medstudent came forward saying that they have been displaced, it simply isn't realistic.

My roommate was displaced. I'm obviously not going to list his name online, but Gavanshir can feel free to PM me and I'll give you his personal contact information to have a conversation with him if you so wish. Was rotating in Bronx-Lebanon in July, August, and September. Was told in October he no longer had a spot for November-June, as well as 17 other students in my school, despite having contracted rotations with them for the full july-june academic year. Yes that's Ross's hospital now, not SGUs. I agree. But that might have something to do with SGU kicking Ross out of every public hospital in NY 1 year prior to them purchasing up Bronx-Lebanon spots that had Touro and Einstein students in them. And then there are the Touro students (current 4th year students, but at the time 3rd year) at Woodhull who had a spot then lost it to SGU. I can PM you at least one specific person who was kicked out of his rotation that way.

I can't promise it will happen to UMDNJ. This is a different offer than what happened with HHC. I'm just saying: be careful. Stuff snowballs. The original HHC offer wasn't that bad. Then it was suddenly 600 students with "fill bonuses". Even then, it was annoying and it was problematic here and there... but it was the retaliation by Ross (and at some non-HHC sites re-retaliation by SGU) that has been so damaging to NY school interests. Deals aren't inherantly bad, and people from these schools DO need training. Its that the NY deal was too greedy, too aggressive, and too antagonistic to any other institution that it led to a small turf war by Ross and SGU.... except it was on the turf held by other schools, not turf either of them historically occupied. No one stopped this (I mean all schools. NY or Carib) from spiraling out of control and now its the mess some of us talk about.

 

[LesBois88]

I also know students that were directly displaced, by both SGU and Ross.

In addition, at TouroCOM the future classes have all been displaced, in some sense. The rotation sites that were agreed upon when the school was new are not where we'll be rotating.

 

[FF430]

The state of NJ has always failed to serve its own residents especially when it comes to medical education. Whether it be terrible wastage of funds across the entire UMDNJ network, uneven tuition hikes or not initiating a sensible system for students to declare in state residency for tuition purposes ( what other state with over a $10 billion budget deficit allows out of state students to save tens of thousands of dollars per year ( by paying instate tuition) after the first year without any sort of contract to repay the state??@#%%)

NY, OH...im sure there are more.

 

[DocEspana]

NY, OH...im sure there are more.

Unless I misunderstood you, Ohio is the one example you should not have given. They either charge an arm and two legs for tuition (the most insane you've ever seen) if you're out of state, or you agree to stay in state for residency or 5 post-grad years, whatever is longer. IDK how many public schools Ohio has, but thats the deal at the only public medical school I know of in Ohio

Most states make it hard to 'become a resident of the state.' Plenty make it streamlined. I guess NJ is one of those streamlined states. Cant really speak on that cause I just know, anecdotally, most states have some decent hoops to jump through. I went to undergrad in jersey, so I know state resident status requires a rent inside the state, and thats nearly the whole requirement.

 

[motomed]

Unless I misunderstood you, Ohio is the one example you should not have given. They either charge an arm and two legs for tuition (the most insane you've ever seen) if you're out of state, or you agree to stay in state for residency or 5 post-grad years, whatever is longer. IDK how many public schools Ohio has, but thats the deal at the only public medical school I know of in Ohio

Most states make it hard to 'become a resident of the state.' Plenty make it streamlined. I guess NJ is one of those streamlined states. Cant really speak on that cause I just know, anecdotally, most states have some decent hoops to jump through. I went to undergrad in jersey, so I know state resident status requires a rent inside the state, and thats nearly the whole requirement.

not so much, new ohio resident here. all the state schools have the same policy. OOS tuition the first year is ~$20,000 more than in state first year, and it's fairly easy to get in state tuition the remaining years with no strings attached at all. basically if you live off loans only your first year and don't rely on income from another source outside the state, and you get a drivers license, you're set. there are a handful of ways to basically pay in state tuition all four years. have your wife get a job, even if it's at mcdonalds long enough for you to fill out the paperwork, and you're in. use the metro tuition rate at the schools on the border, live in the other state, fill out the paperwork, and pay in state plus a small premium all four years.

Missouri is the same. ~$20,000 more for first year if you're OOS, easy to get in state the remaining years, no strings attached. I don't think this is uncommon at all.

 

[DocEspana]

not so much, new ohio resident here. all the state schools have the same policy. OOS tuition the first year is ~$20,000 more than in state first year, and it's fairly easy to get in state tuition the remaining years with no strings attached at all. basically if you live off loans only your first year and don't rely on income from another source outside the state, and you get a drivers license, you're set. there are a handful of ways to basically pay in state tuition all four years. have your wife get a job, even if it's at mcdonalds long enough for you to fill out the paperwork, and you're in. use the metro tuition rate at the schools on the border, live in the other state, fill out the paperwork, and pay in state plus a small premium all four years.

Missouri is the same. ~$20,000 more for first year if you're OOS, easy to get in state the remaining years, no strings attached. I don't think this is uncommon at all.

OUCOM has a crazy rule where you need to jump through a lot of hoops to prove long term residency, and if you cant you can either pay out of state tuition or pledge the 5 years or all of residency. Clearly they're the oddity, not the normal rule then

 

[hopeinternist]

not so much, new ohio resident here. all the state schools have the same policy. OOS tuition the first year is ~$20,000 more than in state first year, and it's fairly easy to get in state tuition the remaining years with no strings attached at all. basically if you live off loans only your first year and don't rely on income from another source outside the state, and you get a drivers license, you're set. there are a handful of ways to basically pay in state tuition all four years. have your wife get a job, even if it's at mcdonalds long enough for you to fill out the paperwork, and you're in. use the metro tuition rate at the schools on the border, live in the other state, fill out the paperwork, and pay in state plus a small premium all four years.

Missouri is the same. ~$20,000 more for first year if you're OOS, easy to get in state the remaining years, no strings attached. I don't think this is uncommon at all.

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/saffairs/survival_manual/out_of_state_admission_contract.htm

"Furthermore, the signee understands that any changes in his/her residency status to that of an Ohio resident will not affect the binding nature of the contract."

Also although the average age of students entering medical school is approximately 25 I would venture to guess majority of them are NOT married thus "having your wife get a job at McDonalds" isn't very feasible.

Also I'm not sure which schools you are referring to, but at least for OU COM- your residency is determined at the time of application. So when you apply as out of state, you sign the 5 year contract to practice in the state after you graduate or do residency at an approved location in Ohio and even that doesn't shorten the term, it only can be used to fulfill a few years out of the 5 year requirement. Even if your residency status changes the next year, and you become instate you are STILL under contract to practice for 5 years since you entered the school as an out of state student.

So yes you can try and save some money in the long run becoming instate in the second year of med school, but you still owe the state 5 years of practice after you graduate. This I guess is worth much more to the state than the tuition cuts they give you, in an effort to tackle the physician shortage in the area.

As I pointed out earlier in my post, I would be more in favor of the state of NJ having some sort of similar contract for SGU grads to be forced to either buy out of the contract ( approx $40k, which OU COM charges, which goes to the state) or practice for 5 years before they can choose to stay or leave in return for clinical rotations.

 

[Gavanshir]

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/saffairs/survival_manual/out_of_state_admission_contract.htm

As I pointed out earlier in my post, I would be more in favor of the state of NJ having some sort of similar contract for SGU grads to be forced to either buy out of the contract ( approx $40k, which OU COM charges, which goes to the state) or practice for 5 years before they can choose to stay or leave in return for clinical rotations.

I agree. It should also be said that there are already MANY SGU graduates practicing in New Jersey. I don't have any figures but I personally know of many that I've met through family contacts, hospitals, etc. SGU has been rotating in New York and New Jersey since the early 80s and has been supplying physicians to to the states.

This one EM program has 7 SGU residents, more than any other schools, and there are many other programs like this. The majority of the residents end up staying.

http://www.saintbarnabas.com/education/nbi/newarkbethem/residents.html

 

[motomed]

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/saffairs/survival_manual/out_of_state_admission_contract.htm

"Furthermore, the signee understands that any changes in his/her residency status to that of an Ohio resident will not affect the binding nature of the contract."

Also although the average age of students entering medical school is approximately 25 I would venture to guess majority of them are NOT married thus "having your wife get a job at McDonalds" isn't very feasible.

Also I'm not sure which schools you are referring to, but at least for OU COM- your residency is determined at the time of application. So when you apply as out of state, you sign the 5 year contract to practice in the state after you graduate or do residency at an approved location in Ohio and even that doesn't shorten the term, it only can be used to fulfill a few years out of the 5 year requirement. Even if your residency status changes the next year, and you become instate you are STILL under contract to practice for 5 years since you entered the school as an out of state student.

So yes you can try and save some money in the long run becoming instate in the second year of med school, but you still owe the state 5 years of practice after you graduate. This I guess is worth much more to the state than the tuition cuts they give you, in an effort to tackle the physician shortage in the area.

As I pointed out earlier in my post, I would be more in favor of the state of NJ having some sort of similar contract for SGU grads to be forced to either buy out of the contract ( approx $40k, which OU COM charges, which goes to the state) or practice for 5 years before they can choose to stay or leave in return for clinical rotations.

UC
http://med.uc.edu/StudentServices/FinancialServices/OhioResidency.aspx

Toledo and OSU have the exact same policy. can't speak to the other schools, but the OU policy must be something they came up with. the UC policy is dictated by state law.

 

[hopeinternist]

So i guess it must not be a public school rule then.. since I thought OU-COM was public.

In my opinion.. kudos to them.. I support their initiative all the way. They re looking out for themselves which I cant blame them for and if you like OUCOM enough, or thats your only option for medical school.. its a great way to get a solid medical education and give back to the state (financially or through service) that offered you a chance to study in the U.S. and not get shipped off somewhere else.

 

[Donkeykiss]

So i guess it must not be a public school rule then.. since I thought OU-COM was public.

In my opinion.. kudos to them.. I support their initiative all the way. They re looking out for themselves which I cant blame them for and if you like OUCOM enough, or thats your only option for medical school.. its a great way to get a solid medical education and give back to the state (financially or through service) that offered you a chance to study in the U.S. and not get shipped off somewhere else.

the associated hospital runs on an annual $2-4 mill deficit
they are corrupt as none other, 20 schools, 30 deans
how does raising tuition 14% one year then taking money to adminis/teach an entire separate med school on your dime/time/space not some type of fraud?
they arent doing it for free, everything is njms resources, dean-other admin-rotation sites-residents
and theyll increase tuition at least 5% this year

 

[DocReadyToRock]

1. UMDNJ is not a struggling university that was waiting on a carribean bailout.
2. Colleagues and attendings maybe. Program directors...not so much.

You know this how?

Several of the PD's I met on the interview trail were IMG. 3 from the Caribbean, including one at CORNELL

 

[tigress]

not so much, new ohio resident here. all the state schools have the same policy. OOS tuition the first year is ~$20,000 more than in state first year, and it's fairly easy to get in state tuition the remaining years with no strings attached at all. basically if you live off loans only your first year and don't rely on income from another source outside the state, and you get a drivers license, you're set. there are a handful of ways to basically pay in state tuition all four years. have your wife get a job, even if it's at mcdonalds long enough for you to fill out the paperwork, and you're in. use the metro tuition rate at the schools on the border, live in the other state, fill out the paperwork, and pay in state plus a small premium all four years.

Missouri is the same. ~$20,000 more for first year if you're OOS, easy to get in state the remaining years, no strings attached. I don't think this is uncommon at all.

Not all. Where I am, if you start on out-of-state tuition, you have to continue as out-of-state the entire 4 years. And out-of-state is $60k. I have a number of classmates paying that. This is a recent change for us, though. You used to be able to get in-state after 1 year but they changed the rules.

As far as students being displaced, this happens not only with Caribbean students but with any new schools created in the US. My school is faced with a new school (technically a division of an existing school in a different city) in our state that will be taking away a number of rotation spots (all the spots in one hospital system). This is just the reality of trying to train more doctors.

 

[DocReadyToRock]

.

 

[DocReadyToRock]

if it will improve the clinical training of caribbean medical students, then i'm all for it. the reason caribbean medical education is looked down on is because their education is inferior to ours. any steps taken to improve that without hurting existing US medical students should be encouraged.

Oh really?

You must be premed. Your blatant ignorance is forgiven

 

[theWUbear]

Downfall of UMDNJ or a good way to control the caribbean infiltration of NJ hospitals?

Yes, UMDNJ voluntarily signed a deal that will be its downfall

I have a feeling UMDNJ will get broken up fairly soon so this maybe moot.

I have a feeling you don't understand sufficiently what you're speculating about

With any luck, RWJMS and the School of Public Health will be broken off into Rutgers (but RWJ would still keep its name) in 12 mo time. UMDNJ is a misnomer, it's not only a university on paper. It's really 8 individual schools with no beneficial ties to each other.

Yeah, like the University of Texas. And the University of California.

The state of NJ has always failed to serve its own residents especially when it comes to medical education.

Training more M3's and M4's in NJ is failing to serve NJ's residents? Hmm....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA. And your dean will fly down on his Pegasus to personally deliver you access to his secret stripper factory and beer volcano.

In all seriousness: NYS for the last 4 years has been a testing grounds for this from SGU. (Blah blah blah...)

I'm sorry about what happened to your beloved New York when them foreign students invaded (Cue "they took arrr jobbbz!"). Keep fightin the good fight. Despite your maniacal laughing with no regard to the facts regarding the situation in NJ, the deal will not be taking spots from NJMS students, and will not affect University Hospital. There is a surplus of spots and this is a deal to organize them and give them to SGU over other foreign schools. Source: conversation with NJMS administration, so take it how you want to

 

[Gavanshir]

Yes, UMDNJ voluntarily signed a deal that will be its downfall



I have a feeling you don't understand sufficiently what you're speculating about



Yeah, like the University of Texas. And the University of California.



Training more M3's and M4's in NJ is failing to serve NJ's residents? Hmm....


I'm sorry about what happened to your beloved New York when them foreign students invaded (Cue: they took arrr jobbbz!). Keep fightin the good fight. Despite your maniacal laughing with no regard to the facts regarding the situation in NJ, the deal will not be taking spots from NJMS students, and will not affect University Hospital. There is a surplus of spots and this is a deal to organize them and give them to SGU over other foreign schools. Source: conversation with NJMS administration, so take it how you want to

Oh man. I'm glad to see seen a dismantling of ***** SDN statements, it's been a while. Thank you theWUbear, thank you.

 

[cpants]

Yes, UMDNJ voluntarily signed a deal that will be its downfall

Obviously I didn't mean it would literally be the end of the school. UMDNJ's best asset has always been its amazing clinical experience in the hospitals of Newark and around North Jersey. As someone who recently graduated from the school, I can tell you that the infiltration of Carib students has already degraded that experience.

 

[theWUbear]

As someone who recently graduated from the school, I can tell you that the infiltration of Carib students has already degraded that experience.

Can you elaborate on the prevalence of foreign med students on rotations at NJMS? I can certainly understand rotations with a larger number of students, and perhaps rotations with students of poorer quality, taking away from the clinical experience.

 

[soeagerun2or]

Your tuition will never be lower. Never going happen. Personally, I think it is a bad idea - makes the medical school seem like it is willing to sell its soul for a quick buck, definitely lowers the US med school's reputation.

Medical schools are entirely a scheme to make money.

The only reason they keep class sizes at current levels and keep research staff employed is because the AAMC requires it. If they could enroll at will, have online learning for M1/M2, correspondence M3/M4 they would. So long as the tuition checks clear they do not care.

 

[sanityonleave]

I think students going to the Caribbean are going to face a changing climate as enrollment for US allo and DO schools expand.

The fact is, there's no reason for US students to go to the Caribbean except AAMC (and to a much lesser extent the AOA) artificially kept enrollment in the US low for a period of time, and thus there was a lack of enough grads to fill residency spots -- therefore, people were pulled in from the Caribbean.

Now that enrollment is going up and that's changing, I don't see any reason for the system to continue to support students trained at facilities outside LCME control and standardization, so I think that Caribbean schools have a limited lifespan. I could certainly be wrong about that.


In response to OP: it's all about the benjamins. Just like there's no reason for anyone who is able to get into a US school to go to the Caribbean, there's no reason for UMDNJ to allow Caribbean students to rotate at their affiliated institutions except they got paid a lot of money. People can obfuscate all they want, but ^ is simply fact.

 

[tigress]

Medical schools are entirely a scheme to make money.

The only reason they keep class sizes at current levels and keep research staff employed is because the AAMC requires it. If they could enroll at will, have online learning for M1/M2, correspondence M3/M4 they would. So long as the tuition checks clear they do not care.

um, right

 

[richse]

With any luck, RWJMS and the School of Public Health will be broken off into Rutgers (but RWJ would still keep its name) in 12 mo time. UMDNJ is a misnomer, it's not only a university on paper. It's really 8 individual schools with no beneficial ties to each other.

I really doubt RWJ will go back to being Rutgers Medical School. It didn't work the first time so it seems unlikely they would try again.

 

[cpants]

Can you elaborate on the prevalence of foreign med students on rotations at NJMS? I can certainly understand rotations with a larger number of students, and perhaps rotations with students of poorer quality, taking away from the clinical experience.

They are in Barnabas and Hackensack, two of the core hospitals for NJMS. Enrollment has gone way up in the past two years. Where you used to have 6 NJMS students on peds at Hack for example, you now have 6 NJMS plus 6 Carib students. It's not so much the quality of the students. They aren't that bad. It's that there is a limited number of patients and learning experiences to go around. When you double the number of students rotating at a site, you degrade the experience.

 

[ArcGurren]

....

 

[ArcGurren]

....

 

[Nymphicus]

Does anybody know if this is affecting RWJ as well? Or only UMDNJ-Newark?

 

[ArcGurren]

Does anybody know if this is affecting RWJ as well? Or only UMDNJ-Newark?

Both schools are going to be somewhat affected by the Kean Report, but this is primarily an NJMS thing

 

[pbribbonmd]

the Caribbean students are so crappy that they've made one the Chief in the Medicine department:
http://njms.umdnj.edu/departments/medicine/internal_medicine/chief_residents.cfm

god, i hope you didn't learn anything from him...

 

[Substance]

SGU sux

lawl.

Jonathan Frakes should apply to medical school.

 

[jerseytrash]

the Caribbean students are so crappy that they've made one the Chief in the Medicine department:
http://njms.umdnj.edu/departments/medicine/internal_medicine/chief_residents.cfm

god, i hope you didn't learn anything from him...

*raises hand* NJMS student.

A lot of students from the Caribbean make amazing and excellent doctors. Nobody's knocking their abilities. However the overcrowding in places like Hack and Morristown dilute the learning experience for EVERYONE since there's not as much personal attention given by the residents to each student.

 

[pbribbonmd]

*raises hand* NJMS student.

A lot of students from the Caribbean make amazing and excellent doctors. Nobody's knocking their abilities. However the overcrowding in places like Hack and Morristown dilute the learning experience for EVERYONE since there's not as much personal attention given by the residents to each student.

right. so more SGU students in NJ will yield more residents. as far as the student:resident ratio is concerned, both the numerator and denominator can be changed.