raider

10+ Year Member
Oct 28, 2007
241
3
241
Status
Attending Physician
NOT PATHOLOGY JOB SPECIFIC; BUT VERY RELEVANT:
More adults over age 65 are staying in the work force, which could make it harder for younger workers to find jobs, a private report showed on Friday.
Older workers have delayed retirement because of a drop in household wealth tied to the real estate and stock market falls of the past decade, according to the report released by Thomson Reuters/University of Michigan's Surveys of Consumers.
While employment for older workers remained low compared with the rest of the population, the over-65 group was the only one to increase its employment rate over the past decade, the report said.
"Given the size of the baby-boom generation, if the shift toward later retirement persists it will mean added pressure on the entry of younger workers on the labor force," said Richard Curtin, director of the surveys, in a statement.
Employment among the youngest workers fell substantially from the start of 2008 to the end of 2009 for both men and women. It fell for those aged 18-19 by 8.8 percentage points for men and 9.6 percentage points for women. For those aged 20-24, employment fell by 11.5 percentage points for men and 4.3 percentage points for women.
 

raider

10+ Year Member
Oct 28, 2007
241
3
241
Status
Attending Physician
it is time cap invested in a "real supply and demand analysis" of the job market instead of something hashed out by a couple of residents.
 

Parts Unknown

Fork tender
Jun 26, 2009
1,515
3
0
Status
Attending Physician
NOT PATHOLOGY JOB SPECIFIC; BUT VERY RELEVANT:
More adults over age 65 are staying in the work force, which could make it harder for younger workers to find jobs, a private report showed on Friday.
Older workers have delayed retirement because of a drop in household wealth tied to the real estate and stock market falls of the past decade, according to the report released by Thomson Reuters/University of Michigan's Surveys of Consumers.
While employment for older workers remained low compared with the rest of the population, the over-65 group was the only one to increase its employment rate over the past decade, the report said.
"Given the size of the baby-boom generation, if the shift toward later retirement persists it will mean added pressure on the entry of younger workers on the labor force," said Richard Curtin, director of the surveys, in a statement.
Employment among the youngest workers fell substantially from the start of 2008 to the end of 2009 for both men and women. It fell for those aged 18-19 by 8.8 percentage points for men and 9.6 percentage points for women. For those aged 20-24, employment fell by 11.5 percentage points for men and 4.3 percentage points for women.
Fixed it for you.
 

2121115

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jan 23, 2007
1,667
39
161
Status
Attending Physician
Isn't every thread on this site "bad news for young pathologists"?
 

Ruination

7+ Year Member
Nov 26, 2009
100
8
151
Status
Attending Physician
Yeah, bad news for young pathologists or for physicians in general. I'm a pessimist at heart, but sometimes I am appalled at the level of doom and gloom I see on this site, and not just in the path forum.
 

2121115

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jan 23, 2007
1,667
39
161
Status
Attending Physician
We could merge all of the threads from the path forum into this one. You know, just to clean up the forum a little bit. ;)
 

mikesheree

Lifetime Donor
Gold Donor
7+ Year Member
Feb 27, 2010
1,107
216
181
NOT behind a scope.
Status
Attending Physician
I'm going to be sticking around because it seems the besy way for me to continue to hose pathstudent and his acolytes. After all, what other purpose can I serve? And as an aside, I really appreciated his thoughts that I was the beneficiary of some "benevolence" when I was "allowed" to purchase into a partnership position with my group after a 4 year assotiate sojorne with out ant mention of income at the/ or prior time
 

Animus

I won't deny it...
10+ Year Member
Apr 16, 2007
4,309
99
271
5th floor
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I am a third year about to be fourth and know I am going into pathology, luckily in another 5 years I should be great. :D
 

pathstudent

Sound Kapital
15+ Year Member
Mar 17, 2003
2,986
76
371
42
Visit site
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
I'm going to be sticking around because it seems the besy way for me to continue to hose pathstudent and his acolytes. After all, what other purpose can I serve? And as an aside, I really appreciated his thoughts that I was the beneficiary of some "benevolence" when I was "allowed" to purchase into a partnership position with my group after a 4 year assotiate sojorne with out ant mention of income at the/ or prior time

You can't hose me. I am on a higher plane.

It seems that in the last ten years the job prospects have become grimmer for newly minted pathologists. If you didn't want to do academics you could go on to a lucrative and rewarding career in private practice, but since 2000, pod labs, insourcing of pathology and the selling of private practices have become rampant. Basically if you don't find academics rewarding, the only option is to become an employee of some corporation like Ameripath with them taking a 30-40% cut of what you generate and you don't have the freedom to decide how you are going to practice because you have a boss to answer to. Private practice is almost non-existant in many cities.

People like Nilf think they are going to set up their own lab, not accept medicare and charge what he wants, but good luck competing with Ameripath and APP and the like for outpatient pathology specimens. Good luck trying to get the contract from the established groups owned by a corporation at some po dunk community hospital.
 
Aug 4, 2009
884
3
0
Status
Attending Physician
Dude, the job prospects are dimmer for everyone in every industry in the country (except maybe for political consultant or the field of "natural medicine") compared to 10 years ago. I know a few radiologists who are stressing about the job market now and having trouble finding jobs in certain areas. Any "sky is falling" comments about pathology need to be approached with this in mind.

The above comments do not minimize or trivialize the pathology job market woes. In my opinion comments which treat pathology as having isolated difficulties trivialize it. Hey, guess what? Things are more complicated than dividing everything into "sucks" versus "rocks." Imagine that. Then again, perspective and internet forums almost never go hand in hand. It's much easier to just be inflammatory and wholly convinced of one's position.
 

Osprey

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 24, 2007
4
0
1
Status
Medical Student
Why are there so many path attendings Trolls on this forum? It's nice to see some balanced viewpoints from attendings like Lipomas. While exPCM and pathstudent constant inflammatory ramblings are just ridiculous and make you sound like fools. Maybe if you guys did some meaningful work during the day or just changed careers instead of researching ways to show everyone how horribly crappy your chosen profession is, you would find some happiness that judging from you posts are sorely missing in your miserable lives and save us the broken record headache of your rants.

If path attendings are making less than PAs, then that solution is actually easy (unlike the suggestion for just cancel half of the path training spots, etc). Quit your attending job, start grossing specimines in a PA role, make more $, and stop whining. If you're really worth what you continually gripe that you are then get organized and demand it. Make some change you bunch of crybabies otherwise you and your career will continue to get trounced.

Pathology is a cornerstone field that is intellectually stimulating, challenging, and should be on the cutting edge of continually evolving technology (similar to if not broader than fields like Radiology).

Path needs a voice that demands respect and conveys an intelligent voice. A voice that is certainly missing in this forum.
 

Art

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Dec 7, 2005
70
0
0
Why are there so many path attendings Trolls on this forum? It's nice to see some balanced viewpoints from attendings like Lipomas. While exPCM and pathstudent constant inflammatory ramblings are just ridiculous and make you sound like fools. Maybe if you guys did some meaningful work during the day or just changed careers instead of researching ways to show everyone how horribly crappy your chosen profession is, you would find some happiness that judging from you posts are sorely missing in your miserable lives and save us the broken record headache of your rants.

If path attendings are making less than PAs, then that solution is actually easy (unlike the suggestion for just cancel half of the path training spots, etc). Quit your attending job, start grossing specimines in a PA role, make more $, and stop whining. If you're really worth what you continually gripe that you are then get organized and demand it. Make some change you bunch of crybabies otherwise you and your career will continue to get trounced.

Pathology is a cornerstone field that is intellectually stimulating, challenging, and should be on the cutting edge of continually evolving technology (similar to if not broader than fields like Radiology).

Path needs a voice that demands respect and conveys an intelligent voice. A voice that is certainly missing in this forum.
One problem with these posters is that they never saywho they are, so they could very well be pre-pubescent males who are trolling, rather than actual pathology attendings. No one verifies that they are who they say they are.
 

pathstudent

Sound Kapital
15+ Year Member
Mar 17, 2003
2,986
76
371
42
Visit site
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
I am the polar opposite of PCM. I idealize academics. But I am also a prgmatist and see something wrong with pas making more than mds no matter what the experience of the individual is. Also it is not so easy to organize an demand more money. We already are and it is called cap and they interact with us govt which is the one that runs the show. Moreover it is one thing to demand more money when there are pathologists willing to work for urologists for 10cents on the dollar. Sorry I am not a pollyanna.


Why are there so many path attendings Trolls on this forum? It's nice to see some balanced viewpoints from attendings like Lipomas. While exPCM and pathstudent constant inflammatory ramblings are just ridiculous and make you sound like fools. Maybe if you guys did some meaningful work during the day or just changed careers instead of researching ways to show everyone how horribly crappy your chosen profession is, you would find some happiness that judging from you posts are sorely missing in your miserable lives and save us the broken record headache of your rants.

If path attendings are making less than PAs, then that solution is actually easy (unlike the suggestion for just cancel half of the path training spots, etc). Quit your attending job, start grossing specimines in a PA role, make more $, and stop whining. If you're really worth what you continually gripe that you are then get organized and demand it. Make some change you bunch of crybabies otherwise you and your career will continue to get trounced.

Pathology is a cornerstone field that is intellectually stimulating, challenging, and should be on the cutting edge of continually evolving technology (similar to if not broader than fields like Radiology).

Path needs a voice that demands respect and conveys an intelligent voice. A voice that is certainly missing in this forum.
 

Parts Unknown

Fork tender
Jun 26, 2009
1,515
3
0
Status
Attending Physician
But I am also a prgmatist and see something wrong with pas making more than mds no matter what the experience of the individual is.
So you see something intractably wrong with top earning PAs possibly having income that overlaps with the lowest earning MD pathologists around, despite the fact that said pathologists are in temporary positions at the beginning stages of their careers.

Have you considered doing something more valuable with your time?
 

yaah

Boring
Staff member
Administrator
15+ Year Member
Aug 15, 2003
27,933
306
581
Fixing in 10% neutral buffered formalin
Status
Attending Physician
Path needs a voice that demands respect and conveys an intelligent voice. A voice that is certainly missing in this forum.
We have lots of intelligent and educated voices on this forum - just because they are not always the loudest or most certain of themselves does not mean they are not out there, and that they are not being influential in other ways. I'm sure there are quite a few others who simply don't bother with this forum anymore (which is unfortunate) because of the methods of posting and argument styles of others.

Part of the problem with internet forums is also part of the reason they are valuable. For every helpful discussion you have to put up with inflammatory remarks, obnoxious posters, off topic rambling, etc. Everyone thinks that they are an expert and that everyone else is misguided or uninformed. But you also give people the opportunity to discuss things that they otherwise wouldn't. It can be a balancing act to try to organize it. We tend to let the forums operate themselves, for the most part. Unfortunately sometimes that means the unpleasant and unhelpful stuff can predominate.

I do tend to agree that we have far too much complaining and general irritation on this forum, and lack respect for other opinions, honest discussion, and clear discussion of reality. But such is the way of things.
 

pathstudent

Sound Kapital
15+ Year Member
Mar 17, 2003
2,986
76
371
42
Visit site
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
So you see something intractably wrong with top earning PAs possibly having income that overlaps with the lowest earning MD pathologists around, despite the fact that said pathologists are in temporary positions at the beginning stages of their careers.

Have you considered doing something more valuable with your time?
First off I an well aware of the fact that when I am a seasoned attending I will crush pas in terms of salary. The median salary for pad crushes the salary for academic instructors. Something smells funny about that if you ask me.

But did you know that the reimbursement (88300) for grossing a whipple or radical mastectomy is 4 dollars. The gross and micro is over 100 (88309) So which is more valuable.
 

BU Pathology

10+ Year Member
Sep 10, 2006
586
39
261
Boston
Status
Attending Physician
The salary for a pathology assistant does not exceed that of a new recruited instructor at an academic institution. The highest paid PA with several years of experience still earns substantially less than a first year faculty member. I do not have direct knowledge of the situation in private practice, but I strongly suspect that the pathologists earn more than their assistants.
 

Parts Unknown

Fork tender
Jun 26, 2009
1,515
3
0
Status
Attending Physician
First off I an well aware of the fact that when I am a seasoned attending I will crush pas in terms of salary. The median salary for pad crushes the salary for academic instructors.
Let's see some of this median salary data you speak of.

pathstudent said:
But did you know that the reimbursement (88300) for grossing a whipple or radical mastectomy is 4 dollars. The gross and micro is over 100 (88309) So which is more valuable.
Considering nobody is going to do a gross-only on a Whipple or radical mastectomy, I find this question stupid.

A savvy group will attract and retain a skilled grossing staff, which frees the pathologists to concentrate on microscopic examinations. This increase in overall operational efficiency can more than justify a good PA's salary.

Let's say a solo pathologist grosses and signs out 3,000 cases a year. With a PA that same pathologist signs out 6,000 cases a year. Which scenario is more profitable?
 

oldfatman

5+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2010
152
9
101
Status
Attending Physician
Learn to network. It helps if you are insanely hot, or effortlessly charming. But then you wouldn't be in pathology.
 

earmuff

10+ Year Member
Jul 31, 2008
162
1
0
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Learn to network. It helps if you are insanely hot, or effortlessly charming. But then you wouldn't be in pathology.
Hey! I resemble that remark...:wtf:
 

oldfatman

5+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2010
152
9
101
Status
Attending Physician
Fixed. I too resent that, I am a people person and still love path.
You are claiming that you are insanely hot and/or effortlessly charming?

If I was a people person, I would have strong reservations about spending my career in an office by myself all day with a microscope and a dictaphone.
 

pathstudent

Sound Kapital
15+ Year Member
Mar 17, 2003
2,986
76
371
42
Visit site
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
You are claiming that you are insanely hot and/or effortlessly charming?

If I was a people person, I would have strong reservations about spending my career in an office by myself all day with a microscope and a dictaphone.
Let's face it. Medical training is years of grueling work followed by a career of plugging away 8-10 hours a day to make a good living. If you are insanely hot or charming, you don't go into medicine at all.
 

Euchromatin

7+ Year Member
Oct 15, 2009
322
34
161
Status
Attending Physician
Yeah, all the "insanely" hot and/or charming people in health care get snapped up from college cheerleading squads across the county by the drug companies to work as pharmaceutical reps.
 

TinyFish

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Dec 16, 2005
160
4
0
Status
Wow, you all must have high standards. I mean, if you're going for supermodel hot or Mr. Bingley-type charming, I doubt you're going to find a whole lot of those people regardless of what profession you decided to do. Period.

I think I met quite a few pathology hotties during my travels. Then again, I'm into the nerdy type. :p

On another note (and forgive me for the digression), I always ask myself the following incredibly naive question. Re: the "life sucks for me, pathology sucks, the job market sucks, I can't ever have a good life and pay off my loans, stay away from pathology, etc. etc." people who frequently post here. What on earth made them choose pathology in the first place? I'm sure someone will say that they, and the most recent cohorts of budding pathologists, have fooled themselves into thinking that they will be above the job market troubles, political difficulties, and other obstacles that would potentially prevent them from living the life of their dreams.

From what I have heard and read, however, life was never puppies and rainbows and gajillions of dollars and fame and girls galore for pathologists. For those whose main object is money (and if you're tempted to reply that money is important, well, believe me, I know it is - but people have different desires and situations), I find it hard to believe that anyone would fool themselves into thinking that pathology would be the ticket to their wildest dreams. There have always been more lucrative fields. Loans have always been looming ahead. It doesn't make any sense to me.

It also doesn't make any sense to me that these people would continue to spend so much effort and time in complaining on these boards. What's the goal here? I doubt the goal is to actually effect any change. If that were the case, this is a highly inefficient way to go about it. Is it to scare people away from choosing this specialty? Again, an inefficient way to go about it. Is it to spark a productive discussion about the problems endemic to the field? Doubtful. Most discussions on this board devolve into a polarized frenzy of finger-pointing and argument. Is it to vent their personal frustrations? Probably. Although again, I can't see why this can't be done in a more productive and less inflammatory fashion...which probably speaks to some of the personalities out there. Yikes.

Anyway, I don't know why I wrote such a long and useless post. I also don't know why I keep visiting this place, save to read the well-written, well-reasoned posts of a few people (on both extremes of the job market saga) who frequent this corner of sdn. Good day to you all.
 

path24

7+ Year Member
Sep 29, 2009
287
35
161
Status
Attending Physician
Nothing really changes with online forums discussion.

I just want to make sure that med students understand that jobs are consistently get 40-50+ CVs for one opening and there is a growing number of residents doing multiple fellowships. The oversupply is getting worse and there is a backlog of pathologists.
 

earmuff

10+ Year Member
Jul 31, 2008
162
1
0
Status
Resident [Any Field]

oldfatman

5+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2010
152
9
101
Status
Attending Physician
Nothing really changes with online forums discussion.

I just want to make sure that med students understand that jobs are consistently get 40-50+ CVs for one opening and there is a growing number of residents doing multiple fellowships. The oversupply is getting worse and there is a backlog of pathologists.
That's it in a nutshell. You can still make a good living in path, but you're at the end of the food chain when it comes to hospital politics.
 

oldfatman

5+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2010
152
9
101
Status
Attending Physician
BTW, a fellowship is just a glorified extra year of residency, with specialization.

Reality doesn't set it until you start signing out cases by yourself.
 

levels x3

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 16, 2006
130
1
141
Status
Attending Physician
the end of the food chain when it comes to hospital politics.
Such is the life of a Pathologist. The only time I ever get noticed is when a particularly difficult case takes a day longer then expected due to immunos or peer review...then I get a phone call. The problem with many pathology groups/labs is that they function very well and very efficiently on very little. Our urologists need a million+ dollar DaVinci surgical robot for prostatectomies so that they can do them in 2-3 pieces rather than 1 intact specimen and increase their R1 rates, whereas I manage quite well with good ol' formalin, paraffin, hematoxylin and eosin. We need to become higher maintenance...
 

TinyFish

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Dec 16, 2005
160
4
0
Status
That's it in a nutshell. You can still make a good living in path, but you're at the end of the food chain when it comes to hospital politics.

Yeah. I mean, the past few posts on this thread are completely reasonable and believable. I guess I just don't understand all the exploding animosity and the gross exaggeration that I've seen here at times. It doesn't bother me usually, it's just hard to gauge how dire the situation is by combining what I hear here with what I hear in reality. In any case, as dire as it were, I doubt I would switch specialty, and I think many others would say the same. Although, who knows what the future will bring.

Heh...high maintenance. It doesn't look like we're going to become high maintenance quite yet. And likely never as high maintenance as the folks in the OR.
 
Aug 4, 2009
884
3
0
Status
Attending Physician
Yeah. I mean, the past few posts on this thread are completely reasonable and believable. I guess I just don't understand all the exploding animosity and the gross exaggeration that I've seen here at times. It doesn't bother me usually, it's just hard to gauge how dire the situation is by combining what I hear here with what I hear in reality. In any case, as dire as it were, I doubt I would switch specialty, and I think many others would say the same. Although, who knows what the future will bring.
If you read the internet too much, you will also begin to believe that Obama is going to take your guns away, the government caused 9/11, vaccines cause more disease than they ever will prevent, and the Pope is still a practicing Nazi who is biding his time before beginning a second holocaust. In other words, the world is ending and you had better get your survival shelter built quickly.

From what I have heard and read, however, life was never puppies and rainbows and gajillions of dollars and fame and girls galore for pathologists. For those whose main object is money (and if you're tempted to reply that money is important, well, believe me, I know it is - but people have different desires and situations), I find it hard to believe that anyone would fool themselves into thinking that pathology would be the ticket to their wildest dreams. There have always been more lucrative fields. Loans have always been looming ahead. It doesn't make any sense to me.
For as long as medicine has existed as a profession, some people have been going into it because of money. And for as long as medicine has existed, these same individuals have been telling others to avoid it because it just isn't worth the effort. This is nothing new. There are many reasons why these individuals have continued to flock to medicine as opposed to trying to make money some place else. Medicine is definitely changing, probably for the worse, but it is still a good career for those who enter it for the right reasons.

I mean hell, if I was a college student currently thinking about medicine as a career, I would make damn sure I wanted to do it and that there wasn't something else that I felt more called to. It is not a trivial undertaking. I do not personally think that whether the job market is poor or mediocre should play a huge role into it. That is window dressing. If that's your deciding factor then you probably shouldn't have been considering it anyway. And if you're picking fields of medicine because of the salary and job market that is also a setup for failure. That may be why many posters here are so unhappy. Unfortunately many of us realize these things too late.