Beating the system - fake URM status?

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dbeast

dbeast

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EDIT: Disclaimer for those of you who found this through twitter- the following is clearly sketchy and deceptive (and "dumb", as some have appropriately called it). What it is *not* is an argument about the role of URM status in admissions. In reality, I just used to watch way too much 24 back in the day and like to find conspiracy theories in everything, including possible ridiculous loopholes in the AMCAS system that I hope nobody would ever attempt. Now that this thread has hit the big time, I'd like to remind everyone to try and resist the SDN-induced compulsion to flame one another, and keep the pro/anti-URM debate to a minimum.

This is for hypothetical purposes only, but...

Do you guys think this would work? And if so, would it be too immoral to try to pull it off? On your ACMAS, mark "decline to state" for ethnicity and then join a bunch of URM-interest groups (MEChA, AKPsi, etc.) on campus and get super involved throughout undergrad. I personally think it may score you one or two extra interviews, although it would be a lot of work joining those groups. Bonus points is that interviewers cannot ask about race so you may just get away with it.
 
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dbeast said:
This is for hypothetical purposes only, but...

Do you guys think this would work? And if so, would it be too immoral to try to pull it off? On your ACMAS, mark "decline to state" for ethnicity and then join a bunch of URM-interest groups (MEChA, AKPsi, etc.) on campus and get super involved throughout undergrad. I personally think it may score you one or two extra interviews, although it would be a lot of work joining those groups. Bonus points is that interviewers cannot ask about race so you may just get away with it.
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They can ask you why you joined the club, and if not that, they can definitely look at you and hopefully detect something.
 
But they can ask you about your URM groups...

This is deceptive and says really terrible things about your moral conscience.
 
Horrible idea. You would be faking a major part of who you are and it would blow up in your face big time come interviews, if you even got there.

I like a comment LizzyM made a while back that I now paraphrase: Just because you are brown and your parents immigrated from Guatemala 5 years before you were born does not make you a URM. Rather, it is things like growing up in a primarily Spanish-speaking community and really being from the underserved world. And on top of that you need to be genuinely involved, long-term, in activities geared towards helping these communities. You may ethnically be a URM, but its being URM culturally that can catch the eye of an adcom. Because it is the cultural URMs who are most likely to actually devote their career to increasing access to quality healthcare for those groups.
 
Morzh said:
Horrible idea. You would be faking a major part of who you are and it would blow up in your face big time come interviews, if you even got there.

I like a comment LizzyM made a while back that I now paraphrase: Just because you are brown and your parents immigrated from Guatemala 5 years before you were born does not make you a URM. Rather, it is things like growing up in a primarily Spanish-speaking community and really being from the underserved world. And on top of that you need to be genuinely involved, long-term, in activities geared towards helping these communities. You may ethnically be a URM, but its being URM culturally that can catch the eye of an adcom. Because it is the cultural URMs who are most likely to actually devote their career to increasing access to quality healthcare for those groups.
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I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, but technically, if the OP was involved in all of these URM clubs, and didn't particularly look like an URM, he could pass off as one if what LizzyM says is true. Of course, this is if they don't ask them about their history and where they came from, or why the joined the groups.
Then again, there's really no way to be 'caught' by the system since the OP never consider himself an URM, and it would only be the speculation of the adcoms.
Whatever. Don't do it. Bad news.
 
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OP....There is something seriously wrong with you. You must think of this whole admissions process as a joke to come up with something this distasteful. 👎
 
eco3385 said:
OP....There is something seriously wrong with you. You must think of this whole admissions process as a joke to come up with something this distasteful. 👎
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Been a member over a year, 2 posts, and you drop this on an obviously hypothetical, if not blatantly tongue-in-cheek, thread? Come on...
 
Pons Asinorum said:
Been a member over a year, 2 posts, and you drop this on an obviously hypothetical, if not blatantly tongue-in-cheek, thread? Come on...
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Thanks Pons, I seem to have ruffled the feathers of a few single-digit post count members.

Yes this is hypothetical. My application process is over. I would obviously never do the above. I'm on a slow overnight shift and could use an entertaining debate. I'll be trollolololol-ing all the way into the morning on this one... 😀

Anyways, back to the original question--- Besides it obviously being deceptive and sketchy, anybody think it would work?
 
dbeast said:
Thanks Pons, I seem to have ruffled the feathers of a few single-digit post count members.

Yes this is hypothetical. My application process is over. I would obviously never do the above. I'm on a slow overnight shift and could use an entertaining debate. I'll be trollolololol-ing all the way into the morning on this one... 😀

Anyways, back to the original question--- Besides it obviously being deceptive and sketchy, anybody think it would work?
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i dont think it would work as stated, but given you could state that your parents are URM? maybe adopted? or step-parents? you need some way to link URM to your family
 
dbeast said:
...anybody think it would work?
Click to expand...

Yes. Just ask this dude:

deusch.jpg
 
dbeast said:

Do you guys think this would work?
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If you're determined enough, sure. But I would think that if you had the skills to pull it off, you'd be making bank as a con artist and not pursuing medicine.
 
Anecdotal evidence time!

I was aquainted with a girl from undergrad who was a class ahead of me and claimed URM status because, as she explained to me, "I grew up pretty wealthy but my mom has been poor since the divorce." I don't know if that's what she said on her application or if she hammed up her mom's current income. She didn't get accepted anywhere (her stats were also less than stellar).
 
eco3385 said:
OP....There is something seriously wrong with you. You must think of this whole admissions process as a joke to come up with something this distasteful. 👎
Click to expand...

The admissions process is a joke. I can't believe anyone thinks otherwise.
 
A couple years ago one of my friends in high school (blonde hair, fair skin, and blue eyes) got into Columbia and we were all fairly surprised. He had ok grades and test scores and was captain of the basketball team, was in our schools gospel choir, ran track, and had done a summer program at Howard. A few weeks after he got accepted at Columbia he got a call from the Black Students Union welcoming him to the school. Apparently, he had marked other under race on his application and they just assumed he was African American.
 
waterpolo480586 said:
A couple years ago one of my friends in high school (blonde hair, fair skin, and blue eyes) got into Columbia and we were all fairly surprised. He had ok grades and test scores and was captain of the basketball team, was in our schools gospel choir, ran track, and had done a summer program at Howard. A few weeks after he got accepted at Columbia he got a call from the Black Students Union welcoming him to the school. Apparently, he had marked other under race on his application and they just assumed he was African American.
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Don't they interview? 😕
 
NickNaylor said:
Don't they interview? 😕
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I'm pretty sure they request a photo too.

I'm guessing (if this story is true) that admissions just gives the student groups a list of accepted students plus short profiles about each of them, then lets them recruit at their own discretion.
 
circulus vitios said:
The admissions process is a joke. I can't believe anyone thinks otherwise.
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Sure is. Nothing but a bunch of meaningless hoops to jump through, which is really unfortunate.

Out of curiosity, what are the advantages/disadvantages of declining to state ethnicity if you're not URM? Or do they just have to put that on there so nobody can play the affirmative action card?
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Did you check out how fast that thread was shut down? Kind of like how this one should be.

Plus I'm all for joke threads. Half my posts are totally useless. Most of this isn't funny at all though, people always take this super serial and start arguing about the best ways to fake being a URM/how the one kid at their school really wasn't a URM but said he was/what SHOULD count as URM/etc.
Click to expand...

And when this one does all that bad stuff, it will suffer the same fate. Right now, most people are realizing this one in non-cereal. I think a little mocking is ok for everybody.
 
gettheleadout said:
There actually is a reason for everything that is required or expected, you know.
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This. At least medicine has the courtesy of weeding out (for the most part) those who can't cut it BEFORE they take out 200k in debt.
 
BushidoBrown said:
This. At least medicine has the courtesy of weeding out (for the most part) those who can't cut it BEFORE they take out 200k in debt.
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How many of those who were weeded out would have been unable to cut it if they were accepted?
 
This idea is brilliant!! The OP is simply letting other draw their own conclusions (maybe he should go to law school). Also, you can join URM groups without being in that minority. I was a member of a gay advocacy group in undergrad and I am a straight guy, I just simply care to show solidarity with the gay community on campus. Good heads up thinking...
 
Interesting thread. Which brings up to me another point: What other things could one lie about to improve one's chances?

My thoughts:

1) Completely Inventing BS ECs.

2) Fudging volunteer hours.

3) Fabricating an event in a PS to make you a more interesting applicant.

4) Faking Disadvantaged status.

5) Making up a fake reason to explain bad grades.

Seems like there are a bunch of ways to bs your way into medical school.
 
gettheleadout said:
There actually is a reason for everything that is required or expected, you know.
Click to expand...

No, there's not. It's just another inefficient crap system that survives because the medical education system has too much at stake. Why would they want to get rid of a system that gives them thousands of dollars per applicant just for the chance of an acceptance, which is really putting an applicant at the mercy of some most likely overpaid lazy administrator orchestrating this dog-and-pony freakshow. Jump through the hoop: join your dozen clubs, do your hundred hours of boring and fulfilling volunteer work, go pay $2000 to save babies in Africa so you can write about your 'interesting and unique' experiences. Wait, no, I mean you have to show your passion...just like the other 40,000 applicants.
 
circulus vitios said:
No, there's not. It's just another inefficient crap system that survives because the medical education system has too much at stake. Why would they want to get rid of a system that gives them thousands of dollars per applicant just for the chance of an acceptance, which is really putting an applicant at the mercy of some most likely overpaid lazy administrator orchestrating this dog-and-pony freakshow. Jump through the hoop: join your dozen clubs, do your hundred hours of boring and fulfilling volunteer work, go pay $2000 to save babies in Africa so you can write about your 'interesting and unique' experiences. Wait, no, I mean you have to show your passion...just like the other 40,000 applicants.
Click to expand...

I'll bite. What does your vision of a more effective application process entail?
 
circulus vitios said:
No, there's not. It's just another inefficient crap system that survives because the medical education system has too much at stake. Why would they want to get rid of a system that gives them thousands of dollars per applicant just for the chance of an acceptance, which is really putting an applicant at the mercy of some most likely overpaid lazy administrator orchestrating this dog-and-pony freakshow. Jump through the hoop: join your dozen clubs, do your hundred hours of boring and fulfilling volunteer work, go pay $2000 to save babies in Africa so you can write about your 'interesting and unique' experiences. Wait, no, I mean you have to show your passion...just like the other 40,000 applicants.
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I love this guy :laugh:
 
mauberley said:
I'll bite. What does your vision of a more effective application process entail?
Click to expand...

I don't know exactly, but it's far from the system we have now that focuses on hypercompetitive sycophantic asskissery while at the same time contradicting itself and encouraging "passionate individualism" or whatever they want to call it.
 
circulus vitios said:
Be unique.
Follow these unwritten rules.
Click to expand...

Not really all that unique to medicine. Law, business and finance all require a high degree of conformity but like people who are passionate and do great things from within the system.

I see both sides, sometimes I felt like I was just hoop jumping but I see how the system is set up to exclude most of the people who have no business in medicine. The system is far from perfect, it favors the wealthy and some passionate and qualified applicants slip through the cracks. Again, not unique to medicine, but it's a problem.
 
circulus vitios said:
No, there's not. It's just another inefficient crap system that survives because the medical education system has too much at stake. Why would they want to get rid of a system that gives them thousands of dollars per applicant just for the chance of an acceptance, which is really putting an applicant at the mercy of some most likely overpaid lazy administrator orchestrating this dog-and-pony freakshow. Jump through the hoop: join your dozen clubs, do your hundred hours of boring and fulfilling volunteer work, go pay $2000 to save babies in Africa so you can write about your 'interesting and unique' experiences. Wait, no, I mean you have to show your passion...just like the other 40,000 applicants.
Click to expand...
Hoops only exist if you see them as such. If you can't understand why demonstrating:

  • a willingness to be of service to others (volunteerism)
  • that you're comfortable with the medical setting (clinical experience)
  • your understanding that science is the most reliable way to try and heal people (research)
  • that you merit the chance to be in the leading position of a healthcare team over someone else more proactive/hardworking/etc... (leadership)
  • that you can handle the academic rigor of the 50,000-pancake-stack that is M1 and M2 (GPA)
  • that you can handle taking an intense test, like the USMLE, and represent your knowledge and understanding through your results (MCAT)
then I don't know what you think shows that you deserve a spot in medical school over any of the other 40,000 applicants. Every applicant might as well be assumed to be after a spot just for the money, prestige, job security, etc... and thus every applicant must have a background, represented on their application, that demonstrates their merit and passion to the contrary. Processing all of these applications and paying the salaries of people that take time out of their teaching, research, or whatever to review them and interview applicants costs money, and thus the application process is far from free. Deal with it or don't apply, but don't pretend it's all a conspiracy to entertain the administration.
 
circulus vitios said:
No, there's not. It's just another inefficient crap system that survives because the medical education system has too much at stake. Why would they want to get rid of a system that gives them thousands of dollars per applicant just for the chance of an acceptance, which is really putting an applicant at the mercy of some most likely overpaid lazy administrator orchestrating this dog-and-pony freakshow. Jump through the hoop: join your dozen clubs, do your hundred hours of boring and fulfilling volunteer work, go pay $2000 to save babies in Africa so you can write about your 'interesting and unique' experiences. Wait, no, I mean you have to show your passion...just like the other 40,000 applicants.
Click to expand...

Have you seen real life? What job doesn't require stupid hoops, *** kissing, and competition? I'm also puzzled what you find so outrageous about a field focused on serving the sick in the public having frequent expectations of it's applicants having served the public before in some sense.

Don't be so naive. You get an applicant pool of hundreds of thousands of students over the course of a few years and you weed it down to a few thousand somehow. The more there are and the better they get, the more hoops they invent.

When you've got multiple people that can do the same stuff, what else do you do? Flip coins? Why not pick one out the them that can do a little more. Multiply that by the thousands of applicants. It's not any different than any other selection process be it Ms. America or the Rhodes Scholarship.
 
gettheleadout said:
Hoops only exist if you see them as such. If you can't understand why demonstrating:

  • a willingness to be of service to others (volunteerism)
  • that you're comfortable with the medical setting (clinical experience)
  • your understanding that science is the most reliable way to try and heal people (research)
  • that you merit the chance to be in the leading position of a healthcare team over someone else more proactive/hardworking/etc... (leadership)
  • that you can handle the academic rigor of the 50,000-pancake-stack that is M1 and M2 (GPA)
  • that you can handle taking an intense test, like the USMLE, and represent your knowledge and understanding through your results (MCAT)
then I don't know what you think shows that you deserve a spot in medical school over any of the other 40,000 applicants. Every applicant might as well be assumed to be after a spot just for the money, prestige, job security, etc... and thus every applicant must have a background, represented on their application, that demonstrates their merit and passion to the contrary. Processing all of these applications and paying the salaries of people that take time out of their teaching, research, or whatever to review them and interview applicants costs money, and thus the application process is far from free. Deal with it or don't apply, but don't pretend it's all a conspiracy to entertain the administration.
Click to expand...

Wow we should sticky this for all the "So discouraged... etc. etc." threads. I BELIEVE!
 
gettheleadout said:
Hoops only exist if you see them as such. If you can't understand why demonstrating:

  • a willingness to be of service to others (volunteerism)
  • that you're comfortable with the medical setting (clinical experience)
  • your understanding that science is the most reliable way to try and heal people (research)
  • that you merit the chance to be in the leading position of a healthcare team over someone else more proactive/hardworking/etc... (leadership)
  • that you can handle the academic rigor of the 50,000-pancake-stack that is M1 and M2 (GPA)
  • that you can handle taking an intense test, like the USMLE, and represent your knowledge and understanding through your results (MCAT)
then I don't know what you think shows that you deserve a spot in medical school over any of the other 40,000 applicants. Every applicant might as well be assumed to be after a spot just for the money, prestige, job security, etc... and thus every applicant must have a background, represented on their application, that demonstrates their merit and passion to the contrary. Processing all of these applications and paying the salaries of people that take time out of their teaching, research, or whatever to review them and interview applicants costs money, and thus the application process is far from free. Deal with it or don't apply, but don't pretend it's all a conspiracy to entertain the administration.
Click to expand...
Yeah this.

Its not a perfect system, but there isn't really a better alternative to determine which 17,000 people to admit out of the 35,000 who apply.

And really like he said - its only hoops if you look at it that way, and I feel bad for you. I enjoyed everything I did in undergrad and would have done it whether I was applying to med school or not.
 
gettheleadout said:
Hoops only exist if you see them as such. If you can't understand why demonstrating:

  • a willingness to be of service to others (volunteerism)
  • that you're comfortable with the medical setting (clinical experience)
  • your understanding that science is the most reliable way to try and heal people (research)
  • that you merit the chance to be in the leading position of a healthcare team over someone else more proactive/hardworking/etc... (leadership)
  • that you can handle the academic rigor of the 50,000-pancake-stack that is M1 and M2 (GPA)
  • that you can handle taking an intense test, like the USMLE, and represent your knowledge and understanding through your results (MCAT)
then I don't know what you think shows that you deserve a spot in medical school over any of the other 40,000 applicants. Every applicant might as well be assumed to be after a spot just for the money, prestige, job security, etc... and thus every applicant must have a background, represented on their application, that demonstrates their merit and passion to the contrary. Processing all of these applications and paying the salaries of people that take time out of their teaching, research, or whatever to review them and interview applicants costs money, and thus the application process is far from free. Deal with it or don't apply, but don't pretend it's all a conspiracy to entertain the administration.
Click to expand...

Being in a service to others? It's a profession, not the priesthood. Standing in a corner for 20 hours does nothing to familiarize you with the inner workings of a hospital or the American health care system. Understanding of science and evidence of hard work are shown through good grades in the prerequisites and a competitive MCAT score. Leadership is a valid point, I'll give you that.

It's not a conspiracy. It's just the byproduct of a system that worked fine at one time. But, instead of improving and scaling the system to fit the now 40,000 yearly applicants, the stupid, lazy, and ignorant people who run "the system" do nothing. See: Hanlon's razor.
 
circulus vitios said:
Being in a service to others? It's a profession, not the priesthood.
Click to expand...
It's a service profession. You will constantly deal with people who are demanding, unsympathetic, and look to you to fulfill their need at any cost to yourself, not to mention the leadership role that many physicians play in smaller communities.
Standing in a corner for 20 hours does nothing to familiarize you with the inner workings of a hospital or the American health care system.
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This is why interviewers ask about your experience and what you've learned from it, as well as occasional questions about the politics and ethics of health care as a system.
Understanding of science and evidence of hard work are shown through good grades in the prerequisites and a competitive MCAT score.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Courses are way too variable across colleges, for one, not to mention the fact that learning about a part of science doesn't give you firsthand experience of the scientific method or an understanding of what has been done to advance medicine to the point it's at today. The MCAT specifically is meant to be a gauge of test performance as well as an equalizing factor for measuring requisite knowledge of the sciences. In any case research is only a major factor for schools concerned with putting out physicians that will continue to advance the field through their work other than just keeping people healthy. Research is not a prerequisite for admission anywhere, and if you have a problem with getting involved in it, simply don't and don't apply to schools that heavily value the experience.
Leadership is a valid point, I'll give you that.

It's not a conspiracy. It's just the byproduct of a system that worked fine at one time. But, instead of improving and scaling the system to fit the now 40,000 yearly applicants, the stupid, lazy, and ignorant people who run "the system" do nothing. See: Hanlon's razor.
Click to expand...
I'm not totally sure what position you are in to make this judgment.
 
circulus vitios said:
Being in a service to others? It's a profession, not the priesthood.
Click to expand...

Its a profession that due to its nature requires quite a bit of self sacrifice and pretty constant service to others (often for little to no gratitude).

So yes, showing you want to serve others is more valuable than knowing the inner workings of the healthcare system. That will come later.
 
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