Becoming a pharmacist for a 40YO.

[deltaforce]

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Hello folks,

This question is for someone I know closely.

This person has a child with autism. Although he is happy with his current career path, solely for the financial reasons, he is thinking of taking pharmacy exams. The guy is originally from India (his pharmacy degree as well) and has worked for his PhD in some European country. He had to cut everything short/put everything on hold after his son's autism diagnosis. After successful completion of his PhD, he planned to pursue a post-doc in autism research. With NIH salary guidelines, he is not going to make more than $45K per year. So essentially a well educated slave. With money so tight in research, personally I don't think its a great career path.

With Autistic child and the therapy expenses, this kind of salary is not going to cut it. Hence, he is looking into Pharmacy options. He is currently in NY (around NYC area, but not exactly in NYC), and plans to stay there (for his son's needs), but can move if the circumstances warrant. So the questions are
- How advisable it is for someone close to 40, to take this chance and get into the market of Pharmacists, when the market seems to be flooded with new grads.
- What is the time frame expected for a person like him to pass Pharmacy exams, and get a proper job? Of course, it primarily depends on him on how much time he can put into the study, still a rough estimate, if he has only 4 or so hours a day to study.
- Any word of advice from your personal experience for him.

I am going to send him link to this thread so that he can take a look at the comments and ask questions, if any.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Edit (added after Dalteparin's reply): This guy's wife works and earns a good amount that they can make it through her salary. This is how they are doing it for last couple of years. So financially, he can work without pay for the experience, and may be able to afford childcare part time.

 

[Dalteparin]

Since he graduated from a foreign pharmacy school, he needs to take the FPGEE and then get volunteer experience in a pharmacy before he can even think about taking his licensing exams. The amount of experience needed varies from state to state, but most states require about 1500 hours, which works out to about nine months of full time experience - for which he can NOT be paid. If he has to go part-time and work elsewhere to support his family, it will be considerably longer. If he has family/friends who can help support him and his son while he's getting pharmacy experience, it might be doable, but if he's a single parent with no help, it might be better for him to stick with his PhD.

 

[Sparda29]

Since he graduated from a foreign pharmacy school, he needs to take the FPGEE and then get volunteer experience in a pharmacy before he can even think about taking his licensing exams. The amount of experience needed varies from state to state, but most states require about 1500 hours, which works out to about nine months of full time experience - for which he can NOT be paid. If he has to go part-time and work elsewhere to support his family, it will be considerably longer. If he has family/friends who can help support him and his son while he's getting pharmacy experience, it might be doable, but if he's a single parent with no help, it might be better for him to stick with his PhD.

I know a pharmacy who will give them 40 hours a week but pay them like $12/hr off the books.

 

[deltaforce]

Thanks Dalteparin,
You got the question correctly. If he manages to pass FPGEE and then NAPLEX and rest of the bureaucratic stuff, how is the job market currently? With repeated posts, I notice that there is factory for pharmacist production so the point is more towards saturation of the market. We can't talk about the future, as no one knows how the situation will be, but with the current scenario, how does it look like?

If you were to advise someone, in similar shoes (with the information you have from this thread), what would you advice? I suggested him to go for it, because his wife's job is pretty stable and her boss doesn't want to replace her in near future, so making both ends meet is not an issue for him. The therapies are also getting paid from her salary, so the status quo is good as long as she is working. But looking at the future and if their son fails live independently after his teens, that is going to be a HUGE financial burden on the family. When we discussed, my point was more like, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Age is another factor, if that is taken into account by the potential employers, how that will affect his chances of employment, if any.

I know a pharmacy who will give them 40 hours a week but pay them like $12/hr off the books.

Thanks for the reply. At this moment, he is looking at, if he should go for pharmacist certification at all. I personally don't think he wants to work off the books. The guy is pretty straight forward, law fearing person.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Is he a Phd or a PharmD? big difference (which may not be obvious to a foreign grad)

 

[Transformer]

If the pharmacy degree earned in India is acceptable in the U.S., he may still need to complete his experiential hours here, take the FPGEE, and the NAPLEX.

For pharmacist licensure in New York state, he needs to pass the MPJE (law exam for NY), and the part III compounding exam.

Also, consider pharmacist licensure in New Jersey and Connecticut since compounding exam is not a requirement there. Work a full year as a licensed pharmacist in NJ or CT, and transfer his pharmacist license to New York state. Many people do this. Good Luck!

 

[M0df]

I would suggest finding out how obtainable position of foreign grad intern really is. Chains don't even want to convert their current employees into grad interns all that much. The easiest way to go is what Sparda suggested, which in turn might lead to being employed after becoming licensed. I would approach a few places and see how realistic this is. 1500 hours can be done in as little as 9 months but to train someone from scratch, give them the experience, only to have them leave after 9 months is hardly worth it.

Also, his current job will probably provide better lifestyle as he gets older.

 

[BidingMyTime]

He needs to find out if his pharmacy degree from India is acceptable in the US (it probably is NOT, unless his degree required 5+ years college, it will not be acceptable in the US. Bachelor's in pharmacy or 4-year or less programs are NOT acceptable in the US.)

If his pharmacy license is not acceptable, I would say at 40, it is NOT worth the hassle, risk, & expense to go back to college (which could take anywhere from 4 - 8 years depending on how many of his classes would transfer over.) IF his license is acceptable, then I would say yes, he should go about getting licensed in the US. As others have said, he will have first have to pass the FPGEE (which people say is harder than the NAPLEX), then he work on getting his internship hours (amount will vary by state), then passing the Naplex. How long this takes, will just depend on how fast he is at studying for the exams, and how much he can work to get in the internship.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Oh, to the other part of your question, once he is licensed in the US, I assume he is a permanent legal resident, then I think his chances of getting a job are as good as anyone else's (which will vary on the local job market.) Most places will not discriminate against him (and it wouldn't be legal to.)

If he is not a legal resident, and would require an employee to put in for a work visa for him....in that case, his chances will be slim to none. Employees for the most part, are not doing work visa's for pharmacists.

 

[deltaforce]

Thanks folks,

He has a 4 year degree and what he gathered from other Indian friends, the degree is valid but do have to take FPGEE to make it at par with Pharm D. PhD is not in pharmaceutical sciences, so I guess, it is not relevant to the discussion.

@M0df,
Since his degree is valid, he is not going back to the college. This was never on the table. Having a child with autism significantly restricts the options.

@Transformer,
The point you raised is under consideration. He is aiming for CT license in the beginning.

@BidingMyTime,
You touched a very important piece that I was thinking about too. His wife has H1B (so his is dependent H4 visa) and her employer just filed for her permanent residency, which I assume will take anywhere from 5 to 10 years. So he doesn't have a work permit at this moment. If the employees do not apply for a work visa, then its absolutely not worth going this route. He will need someone to apply for his H1B, or whatever visa he may need.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Thanks folks,
He has a 4 year degree and what he gathered from other Indian friends, the degree is valid but do have to take FPGEE to make it at par with Pharm D. PhD is not in pharmaceutical sciences, so I guess, it is not relevant to the discussion.

This is incorrect. The FPGEE is only taken IF one is determined to have a Pharm D equivalent degree. If his degree is only 4 years, then it is NOT equivalent, and he would not be able to be licensed in the US without getting a Pharm D (or equivalent) degree. This is unfortunate for your friend, he can verify this information here:

http://www.nabp.net/programs/examination/fpgec/

Foreign Pharmacy Graduate Equivalency Examination (FPGEE)

• You may not take the FPGEE until your education and licensure and/or registration have been reviewed and approved.

Graduated on or after January 1, 2003
If you graduated from an accredited school of pharmacy on or after January 1, 2003, you must have completed at least a five-year pharmacy curriculum. For example, a five-year BSc in pharmacy, a five-year BPharm, or a five or six-year PharmD.



Now if your friend actually graduated before January 1, 2003, then the standards are different, I am assuming he graduated after January 1, 2003.

 

[deltaforce]

Thanks for pointing this out BidingMyTime. From what I know, foreign grads need their degrees evaluated before applying for FPGEE, and the evaluations turn out to be equivalent then things can proceed. I don't know exact terminology in this, but this will be taken into account.

The more stress or the reason of this thread is the latter part, what are the chances of getting a job after going through all this. As you pointed out, the employers are rather unwilling to file a work permit, he is looking responses more on this line.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Thanks for pointing this out BidingMyTime. From what I know, foreign grads need their degrees evaluated before applying for FPGEE, and the evaluations turn out to be equivalent then things can proceed. I don't know exact terminology in this, but this will be taken into account.

The more stress or the reason of this thread is the latter part, what are the chances of getting a job after going through all this. As you pointed out, the employers are rather unwilling to file a work permit, he is looking responses more on this line.

I understand what you are saying, but the fact is he MUST have a 5+ year degree for the FPGEE to consider his application. This is a hard requirement. Yes, even if he does have a 5+ year degree, they will still evaluate it for equivalency, but the FPGEE is specific, if his degree is only 4 years, he will NOT be allowed to be an RPH in the US. Which makes the rest of his worries non-applicable, since you've said he is not going to go back to get his PharmD degree (a wise move I would say.)

 

[anewmanx]

A lot of bad information here.

A 4 year degree is acceptable if they graduated before 2003. See here

If you graduated from an accredited school of pharmacy before January 1, 2003, you must have completed at least a four-year pharmacy curriculum.

A 4 year degree is acceptable if you can prove that there was sufficient prerequisite work to equal the fifth year in order to be admitted to the program. It has been done before. This is how pharmacists from the UK have been getting over the pond to practice in the US. They cannot get into their 4 year program without what equates to a year of college level prerequisite work.

You must be currently licensed or registered for unrestricted practice in a foreign country to get the FPGEC which allows you to take the FPGEE. See here

All candidates must also provide documentation that they are licensed and/or registered for the unrestricted practice of pharmacy in a foreign country or jurisdiction. Please refer to page 18 for complete details on providing documentation.

If you were in some oddball program that awards a Bpharm but requires another year of coursework and clinical practice to obtain a license, such as in many Spanish speaking countries (Licenciatura después to Bachillerato,) then that can, which administrative approval, qualify as a 5 year degree.

Consideration of post-baccalaureate degrees and whether such a degree may be applicable to the five-year pharmacy curriculum requirement will be determined on a case-by-case basis at the discretion of the FPGEC. Post-baccalaureate degrees (such as a MSc or PhD) will not be considered except under limited circumstances where the degree obtained and coursework completed to obtain the degree satisfactorily show that the candidate obtained experience in patient care in a clinical pharmacy practice setting.

 

[297point1]

With NIH salary guidelines, he is not going to make more than $45K per year. So essentially a well educated slave.

Do you know how many people in this country would be thrilled to earn $45,000/year?

Anyways, to answer the question at hand: I don't question this guy's aptitude; regardless of where it is earned, PhD's aren't handed out like Pez. The bigger issue is can this guy commit the time necessary to be successful in pharmacy school? Whether or not he finds the course materials challenging, it takes a major time commitment to be successful, from attending classroom and laboratory sessions, writing papers, completing assignments, and studying for exams.

A colleague of mine at another school ran an analysis and found that being a parent was a negative predictor of success among pharmacy students (ie. if the student is also a parent, they were more likely to drop out or flunk out compared to students who are not parents). I can only imagine that being a parent of a special needs child would make it that much more difficult.

 

[Dalteparin]

Thanks Dalteparin,
You got the question correctly. If he manages to pass FPGEE and then NAPLEX and rest of the bureaucratic stuff, how is the job market currently? With repeated posts, I notice that there is factory for pharmacist production so the point is more towards saturation of the market. We can't talk about the future, as no one knows how the situation will be, but with the current scenario, how does it look like?

Search for "job market saturation" in this forum and you'll see what your friend is up against. It's not pretty.

 

[sosoo]

cvs doesn't hire foreign grads anymore i heard, and that may go with other chain pharmacies as well. anyone wanna correct me on this? so job prospect for foreign grad is very very very dim.

 

[baronzb]

Do the chains still sponsor current H1bs?

 

[Mcat14]

Nope

 

[sosoo]

just to put this out there, cvs will not sponsor foreign pharmacists. i know a PIC who graduated at a pharmacy school in the u.s. and was a PIC at a particular store since 2009. she was employed through work visa upon graduation, and just last year they will not renew the visa for her. she was a great PIC at a low volume store since 2009. but they won't renew her work visa. so foreign pharmacists beware. cvs may not be an option.

 

[baronzb]

edit

 

[BidingMyTime]

I don't know of any workplaces, chains, hospitals, or otherwise, that will sponsor H1B for pharmacists. The need is completely gone. Why pay even $5,000 (and risk that pharmacist deciding to move back to their home country), when one can fairly easily hire a legal resident/citizen pharmacist to work?