Before Starting a Thread About MD vs DO...

[TheBoneDoctah]

Someone, @AlteredScale, needs to put a lock on threads that have the keywords "MD vs DO," "DO bias," "MDs hating DOs," "can a DO become a physician?" No wonder so many people are worried about going into D.O. schools with this kind of advertisement.

Go to the best med school you can, do your best, gain a residency position, get a job, and do your job. Stop worrying about all the "will they like me," "can I get into surgery" b.s. The chances are, by the time you are ready to apply to residency programs, you won't have high enough scores to be a surgeon, ENT, dermatologist ANYWAY (even if you went to an MD school).

If you don't wanna be a doctor, then don't. If you do, go to the best school you can get into, bust your a**, and prove you can compete with the MD students. I am so sick of hearing the complaining from D.O. students about how they can't get into certain residencies because they are a D.O. student. Although this may be 150% true, it doesn't change the fact that you aren't an MD. Sure, it may not be fair if you score a 260 on your USMLE and are a top student, but it's the way it is and it's not gonna change. Instead of wasting hours on SDN bickering and starting a thread with 150+ posts of pre-meds going back and forth saying why MD is better and why DOs won't get this position, and why this PD won't accept you, worry about what you can change...your grades, your board scores, your ECs, yourself, etc. Maybe you won't become a world renowned neurosurgeon or derm doc as a D.O., but you can make a GREAT living doing something fulfilling that you enjoy that 99.99999% of Americans can't and MANY pre-med students would give their left male anatomy to be in your shoes.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

Someone, @AlteredScale, needs to put a lock on threads that have the keywords "MD vs DO," "DO bias," "MDs hating DOs," "can a DO become a physician?" No wonder so many people are worried about going into D.O. schools with this kind of advertisement.

Go to the best med school you can, do your best, gain a residency position, get a job, and do your job. Stop worrying about all the "will they like me," "can I get into surgery" b.s. The chances are, by the time you are ready to apply to residency programs, you won't have high enough scores to be a surgeon, ENT, dermatologist ANYWAY (even if you went to an MD school).

If you don't wanna be a doctor, then don't. If you do, go to the best school you can get into, bust your a**, and prove you can compete with the MD students. I am so sick of hearing the complaining from D.O. students about how they can't get into certain residencies because they are a D.O. student. Although this may be 150% true, it doesn't change the fact that you aren't an MD. Sure, it may not be fair if you score a 260 on your USMLE and are a top student, but it's the way it is and it's not gonna change. Instead of wasting hours on SDN bickering and starting a thread with 150+ posts of pre-meds going back and forth saying why MD is better and why DOs won't get this position, and why this PD won't accept you, worry about what you can change...your grades, your board scores, your ECs, yourself, etc. Maybe you won't become a world renowned neurosurgeon or derm doc as a D.O., but you can make a GREAT living doing something fulfilling that you enjoy that 99.99999% of Americans can't and MANY pre-med students would give their left male anatomy to be in your shoes.

 

[Prairiepalmeri]

The majority of MD's are not renowned neurosurgeons either. Sorry brah, you can't all be renowned! But I know as a D.O., I am going to have every opportunity I need to fulfill my professional goals in my community. And that's all that matters to me.

 

[Dustbowl12]

Myth that DO's can't make it to prestiguous places and don't already do so (like surgeon general) just because a handful of places don't look favorably upon them is comical and inaccurate

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Myth that DO's can't make it to prestiguous places and don't already do so (like surgeon general) just because a handful of places don't look favorably upon them is comical and inaccurate

True and I agree. The point of the post was to stop complaining and do something about it.


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[AlteredScale]

Myth that DO's can't make it to prestiguous places and don't already do so (like surgeon general) just because a handful of places don't look favorably upon them is comical and inaccurate

"Handful" is quite an understatement my friend. You'll come to understand what I mean by either accepting it through what we have said or burying your head till 4th year realizing you didn't match because you shotgunned your application to do ENT or Derm thinking "well I don't believe there's any bias" and ending up unmatched, with 300K of private loans (if you're set on BCOM) sitting on your head. What makes this more upsetting is when people continue to dispel the utter myth that DO's CAN make it to prestigious places and essentially tricking them into believing so. Because not even a 99th percentile USMLE and or COMLEX score will get you an interview at MGH/UCSD/UCSF/UCLA/Stanford/UW/UPMC/NYU/BWH/BMC/UPenn/NYP..... yet a 230 from and MD school could get you interviews from a handful of those places. Pretending the bias doesn't exist and acting like everything is fine only perpetuates this continual bias on our side.

If we as a entity want this bias to go away then cut class sizes, stop sending DO students to podunk community hospitals to do their IM block with a doc who has never had experience teaching medical students, stop hiring minimal faculty to teach students, start creating real research initiatives as supposed to ZERO impact factor output in the JAOA, stop lying on match lists saying a grad went to UChicago for internal medicine when it was NorthShore or landed IM at UPMC when it was the community hospital, stop opening up new schools and start focusing on bettering the schools you have currently.

The issue that both @SynapticDoctah and I are concerned of is that these "MD vs DO" threads are more of simply worrying and or complaining. If you're a DO student, you made that choice. Instead of posting ANOTHER "vs" thread, take action and do something. If you want to do academic medicine then you need to find the right mentors and go out there and work your tail off. At least at that point you can have some self-dignity to say you worked hard to reach for the stars as supposed to cruising and acting shocked because you played naive the whole way through thinking that you were entitled to get "x" residency just because you killed you COMLEX.

 

[68PGunner]

"Handful" is quite an understatement my friend. You'll come to understand what I mean by either accepting it through what we have said or burying your head till 4th year realizing you didn't match because you shotgunned your application to do ENT or Derm thinking "well I don't believe there's any bias" and ending up unmatched, with 300K of private loans (if you're set on BCOM) sitting on your head. What makes this more upsetting is when people continue to dispel the utter myth that DO's CAN make it to prestigious places and essentially tricking them into believing so. Because not even a 99th percentile USMLE and or COMLEX score will get you an interview at MGH/UCSD/UCSF/UCLA/Stanford/UW/UPMC/NYU/BWH/BMC/UPenn/NYP..... yet a 230 from and MD school could get you interviews from a handful of those places. Pretending the bias doesn't exist and acting like everything is fine only perpetuates this continual bias on our side.

If we as a entity want this bias to go away then cut class sizes, stop sending DO students to podunk community hospitals to do their IM block with a doc who has never had experience teaching medical students, stop hiring minimal faculty to teach students, start creating real research initiatives as supposed to ZERO impact factor output in the JAOA, stop lying on match lists saying a grad went to UChicago for internal medicine when it was NorthShore or landed IM at UPMC when it was the community hospital, stop opening up new schools and start focusing on bettering the schools you have currently.

The issue that both @SynapticDoctah and I are concerned of is that these "MD vs DO" threads are more of simply worrying and or complaining. If you're a DO student, you made that choice. Instead of posting ANOTHER "vs" thread, take action and do something. If you want to do academic medicine then you need to find the right mentors and go out there and work your tail off. At least at that point you can have some self-dignity to say you worked hard to reach for the stars as supposed to cruising and acting shocked because you played naive the whole way through thinking that you were entitled to get "x" residency just because you killed you COMLEX.

I have a better option for those superstar DOs out there:

Take the HPSP and join the military.

There's no DO/MD bias when it comes to residency match.

 

[Dustbowl12]

"Handful" is quite an understatement my friend. You'll come to understand what I mean by either accepting it through what we have said or burying your head till 4th year realizing you didn't match because you shotgunned your application to do ENT or Derm thinking "well I don't believe there's any bias" and ending up unmatched, with 300K of private loans (if you're set on BCOM) sitting on your head. What makes this more upsetting is when people continue to dispel the utter myth that DO's CAN make it to prestigious places and essentially tricking them into believing so. Because not even a 99th percentile USMLE and or COMLEX score will get you an interview at MGH/UCSD/UCSF/UCLA/Stanford/UW/UPMC/NYU/BWH/BMC/UPenn/NYP..... yet a 230 from and MD school could get you interviews from a handful of those places. Pretending the bias doesn't exist and acting like everything is fine only perpetuates this continual bias on our side.

If we as a entity want this bias to go away then cut class sizes, stop sending DO students to podunk community hospitals to do their IM block with a doc who has never had experience teaching medical students, stop hiring minimal faculty to teach students, start creating real research initiatives as supposed to ZERO impact factor output in the JAOA, stop lying on match lists saying a grad went to UChicago for internal medicine when it was NorthShore or landed IM at UPMC when it was the community hospital, stop opening up new schools and start focusing on bettering the schools you have currently.

The issue that both @SynapticDoctah and I are concerned of is that these "MD vs DO" threads are more of simply worrying and or complaining. If you're a DO student, you made that choice. Instead of posting ANOTHER "vs" thread, take action and do something. If you want to do academic medicine then you need to find the right mentors and go out there and work your tail off. At least at that point you can have some self-dignity to say you worked hard to reach for the stars as supposed to cruising and acting shocked because you played naive the whole way through thinking that you were entitled to get "x" residency just because you killed you COMLEX.

Yeah because going unmatched is a real possibility for DOs, with their horrible 99% placement rate.

Did you get a chance to look at that horrid DO GME expansion in 2015? Only tens of specialty positions including several neurosurgery, derm, plastics and ortho residenices...

So a DO is blocked out of SOME top residencies, they still make it to Johns Hopkins, Yale, etc....

Things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

Averages and MCAT going up every year, new schools all affiliated with major universities, creating GME and establishing strong rotation sites (except LUCOM)

DO residency and fellowship training has been/is being standardized also

 

[IslandStyle808]

I have kind of posted a lot of gloom and doom stuff lately. I think it is time to look at it from the other side of the fence. There are some residencies where aiming for mid-tier and top-tier are doable, such as PM&R and Anesthesia (Gas is tougher of the two). Now here is the kicker, since DOs are able to match into competitive programs in these two fields, it makes them competitive for even fellowships. And yes there are several competitive fellowships that are under PM&R and Gas, and one of them is pain. They have 1 seat for every 1.4 applicants, which is as hard as cardiology to match. Here is one example of one pain program and their fellows:

Texas Tech
https://www.ttuhsc.edu/som/anesthesiology/fellowship/current.aspx

Yep half of them are DOs. Now the skeptics maybe wondering well this must be a low tier program? Totally incorrect. It is considered to be one of the top programs in pain (so both a competitive fellowship and competitive program). This is what happens when DOs train in the same tier of programs as MDs. They will get the same consideration.

We have to come to reality that DO education needs to be improved for a lot of residency programs to consider DO students as viable candidates. Not only do students need to do well in medical school, but also push leadership for better clinical training, so DOs have a fighting chance for all residency programs. Only then will matching into competitive residencies and fellowships, such as pain, will be plausible.

 

[AlteredScale]

Yeah because going unmatched is a real possibility for DOs, with their horrible 99% placement rate.

Did you get a chance to look at that horrid DO GME expansion in 2015? Only tens of specialty positions including several neurosurgery, derm, plastics and ortho residenices...

So a DO is blocked out of SOME top residencies, they still make it to Johns Hopkins, Yale, etc....

Things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

Averages and MCAT going up every year, new schools all affiliated with major universities, creating GME and establishing strong rotation sites (except LUCOM)

DO residency and fellowship training has been/is being standardized also

You mean the AOA residency spots that will more than likely be forced to shut down because the faculty to resident ratio is too small? How about those ones that won't apply for ACGME accred at all? Yeah I saw those.

No there are no DOs going into IM or any surgical specialty to JHU or Yale. The Yale placement isn't at the university hospital and the ONE time it did happen it was the primary care track. Now do I tell DO students "don't bother"? No way! Sooner or later this ceiling will be broken but we can make that happen if things change.

The MCAT and GPA has risen for a while but it'll never top 30 because guess what, when an applicant with that caliber gets accepted to a MD school you already know what decision they make (hint: they make the smart decision).

NONE of the new DO satellite campuses with horrendous names have been affiliated with a major university. Do you know what a major university is? Affiliated isn't even the right word. It's a public private agreement because a university doesn't even want to deal with working a COM and because it allows the faculty to get paid out the hoo hah without having to report it.

Again, you act as if you have all the evidence to prove that "nothing is wrong everything is better" and yet again, I have shown that is not the case. There IS something wrong and I will argue tooth and nail against you to show that to the general public in order to ensure that the AOA and DOs in general move away from the contempt of their actions and starting a actually improving. So please stop speaking the like the golden child representative for the AOA spewing prepared blanket statements of the entire profession. Save those for the OMED conference.

 

[Mad Jack]

I have a better option for those superstar DOs out there:

Take the HPSP and join the military.

There's no DO/MD bias when it comes to residency match.

There's other biases that come into play there, however, which make specializing difficult for those without prior service unless you are willing to extend your commitment way beyond the 8 years and do a few GMO tours first. And then there's the bias they have toward the MDs that come out of USUHS, which get damn near their pick of residency because of the points they are afforded due to the system.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah because going unmatched is a real possibility for DOs, with their horrible 99% placement rate.

Did you get a chance to look at that horrid DO GME expansion in 2015? Only tens of specialty positions including several neurosurgery, derm, plastics and ortho residenices...

So a DO is blocked out of SOME top residencies, they still make it to Johns Hopkins, Yale, etc....

Things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

Averages and MCAT going up every year, new schools all affiliated with major universities, creating GME and establishing strong rotation sites (except LUCOM)

DO residency and fellowship training has been/is being standardized also

Someone, @AlteredScale, needs to put a lock on threads that have the keywords "MD vs DO," "DO bias," "MDs hating DOs," "can a DO become a physician?" No wonder so many people are worried about going into D.O. schools with this kind of advertisement.

Go to the best med school you can, do your best, gain a residency position, get a job, and do your job. Stop worrying about all the "will they like me," "can I get into surgery" b.s. The chances are, by the time you are ready to apply to residency programs, you won't have high enough scores to be a surgeon, ENT, dermatologist ANYWAY (even if you went to an MD school).

If you don't wanna be a doctor, then don't. If you do, go to the best school you can get into, bust your a**, and prove you can compete with the MD students. I am so sick of hearing the complaining from D.O. students about how they can't get into certain residencies because they are a D.O. student. Although this may be 150% true, it doesn't change the fact that you aren't an MD. Sure, it may not be fair if you score a 260 on your USMLE and are a top student, but it's the way it is and it's not gonna change. Instead of wasting hours on SDN bickering and starting a thread with 150+ posts of pre-meds going back and forth saying why MD is better and why DOs won't get this position, and why this PD won't accept you, worry about what you can change...your grades, your board scores, your ECs, yourself, etc. Maybe you won't become a world renowned neurosurgeon or derm doc as a D.O., but you can make a GREAT living doing something fulfilling that you enjoy that 99.99999% of Americans can't and MANY pre-med students would give their left male anatomy to be in your shoes.

Pretending there is no downside to going DO is disingenuous. These threads must exist for the sake of transparency and accuracy. I don't know why so many pre-DOs and DOs that haven't been through the match yet want the truth to be filtered and only positivity to be allowed. The simple fact is, as a US MD with a 220, you can match into nearly any specialty you want. Derm and plastics may be off the table, but mid-tier IM is easy, General surgery is a very real possibility, and you could sleepwalk your way into IM, EM, rads, or anesthesia. As a DO, you've got to do extremely well to break into these sorts of places/fields, or resign yourself to the middle of nowhere with a score that would've landed an MD a decent low-cost residency in the city. For those of us that aren't picky like myself, that's fine. But for those that are, that is a reality they should be aware of.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Pretending there is no downside to going DO is disingenuous. These threads must exist for the sake of transparency and accuracy. I don't know why so many pre-DOs and DOs that haven't been through the match yet want the truth to be filtered and only positivity to be allowed. The simple fact is, as a US MD with a 220, you can match into nearly any specialty you want. Derm and plastics may be off the table, but mid-tier IM is easy, General surgery is a very real possibility, and you could sleepwalk your way into IM, EM, rads, or anesthesia. As a DO, you've got to do extremely well to break into these sorts of places/fields, or resign yourself to the middle of nowhere with a score that would've landed an MD a decent low-cost residency in the city. For those of us that aren't picky like myself, that's fine. But for those that are, that is a reality they should be aware of.

Right, and I am aware of that. The idea of my post was to tell people that instead of sitting here at their computer complaining about the situation, change what you have control of, which is your grades and board scores. If you don't have a chance to go to an MD school, either make the decision to go DO (and make the best of it), or don't go to med school. It's just annoying to see the SAME posts every single day "Should I go DO?"

And BTW, I never said there wasn't a downside to DO. I know there is.

 

[Mad Jack]

Right, and I am aware of that. The idea of my post was to tell people that instead of sitting here at their computer complaining about the situation, change what you have control of, which is your grades and board scores. If you don't have a chance to go to an MD school, either make the decision to go DO (and make the best of it), or don't go to med school. It's just annoying to see the SAME posts every single day "Should I go DO?"

And BTW, I never said there wasn't a downside to DO. I know there is.

And my point was that those threads are necessary because every case is different. Many would say I made a mistake by not waiting a year and applying MD, for instance, but I know that, for myself, that is simply incorrect. We're here to help people handle this dilemma every year because not all cases play out the same way. And if there weren't constantly new threads on the issue, the old ones would sink into oblivion and become lost to the mythical search function that hardly works as designed.

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

Someone, @AlteredScale, needs to put a lock on threads that have the keywords "MD vs DO," "DO bias," "MDs hating DOs," "can a DO become a physician?" No wonder so many people are worried about going into D.O. schools with this kind of advertisement.

Go to the best med school you can, do your best, gain a residency position, get a job, and do your job. Stop worrying about all the "will they like me," "can I get into surgery" b.s. The chances are, by the time you are ready to apply to residency programs, you won't have high enough scores to be a surgeon, ENT, dermatologist ANYWAY (even if you went to an MD school).

If you don't wanna be a doctor, then don't. If you do, go to the best school you can get into, bust your a**, and prove you can compete with the MD students. I am so sick of hearing the complaining from D.O. students about how they can't get into certain residencies because they are a D.O. student. Although this may be 150% true, it doesn't change the fact that you aren't an MD. Sure, it may not be fair if you score a 260 on your USMLE and are a top student, but it's the way it is and it's not gonna change. Instead of wasting hours on SDN bickering and starting a thread with 150+ posts of pre-meds going back and forth saying why MD is better and why DOs won't get this position, and why this PD won't accept you, worry about what you can change...your grades, your board scores, your ECs, yourself, etc. Maybe you won't become a world renowned neurosurgeon or derm doc as a D.O., but you can make a GREAT living doing something fulfilling that you enjoy that 99.99999% of Americans can't and MANY pre-med students would give their left male anatomy to be in your shoes.

Also, those DO students who complain WILLINGLY CHOSE to go DO. Nobody was forcing them to matriculate to DO, they could've taken more years to improve their MCAT, GPA, App to be more competitive at an MD school. Also, if they did not know the challenges facing them to match in a competitive specialty prior to matriculating as a DO, then that is 100% on them and have no right to complain.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Also, those DO students who complain WILLINGLY CHOSE to go DO. Nobody was forcing them to matriculate to DO, they could've taken more years to improve their MCAT, GPA, App to be more competitive at an MD school. Also, if they did not know the challenges facing them to match in a competitive specialty prior to matriculating as a DO, then that is 100% on them and have no right to complain.

Exactly.


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[GatorsKW14]

As a current DO student, I think that premed students should be aware of the drawbacks of going to a DO school so that they can make an informed decision. Yes, it may be premature and maybe a little overly ambitious to go into medical school thinking that you are going to be in a highly competitive specialty at the number one program in the country. But if that is extremely important to you, I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to go to an MD school to keep every possible door open. Of course DOs match into great specialties and programs as well, but it's not a myth that some programs are biased against DOs. I only have a problem with people spreading false information and using that to discourage people from attending DO schools.

I also wish that some DOs would stop acting so defensive about their profession...it gives the impression that we are compensating for something. There are a few faculty members at my school that constantly say things to imply that the osteopathic philosophy is superior, and then complain about the bias against DOs in the MD world. It goes both ways. When people ask me how a DO and MD are different, I tell them that the only difference is that we learn OMM. Any good physician (MD or DO) realizes that there can be more to a patient's illness than just their obvious symptoms, so I really don't believe that the holistic approach is unique to DOs. I think that we need to work towards a mutual respect for each other, rather than DOs trying to prove some aspect of their profession to be superior to MDs.

I agree with you that your medical education is what you make out of it. If you work hard, you can be successful no matter where you go. If you slack off and do the bare minimum, you probably won't be a neurosurgeon regardless of where you come from. There are no guarantees even for MD grads. I know a recent MD grad who wanted to do emergency medicine and scored above a 260 on step 1, but ended up matching into a small community hospital IM program. You can be extremely bright, go to a good MD school, and still not reach all of your career goals due to some other factor.

 

[AlteredScale]

Also, those DO students who complain WILLINGLY CHOSE to go DO. Nobody was forcing them to matriculate to DO, they could've taken more years to improve their MCAT, GPA, App to be more competitive at an MD school. Also, if they did not know the challenges facing them to match in a competitive specialty prior to matriculating as a DO, then that is 100% on them and have no right to complain.

The fact is many go into this process not understanding the real challenges of going DO because we have users on here who downplay the things that matter (the fact that we have 150 students and 15 faculty to teach them, the fact that 98% of DO schools have not a SINGLE R01 and have now had to beg and grovel with an "agreement" with a MINOR public university so that they can say "see we are research intensive") while up playing the things that don't matter (talking about GME based on the AOA webpage without reading things like faculty to resident ratio or how mans beds the hospital will have).

Every applicant and pre-DO deserves the right to understand the limitation and as I said I will fight tooth and nail to ensure that those that say "there's no limits only opportunity" are shut down.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

The fact is many go into this process not understanding the real challenges of going DO because we have users on here who downplay the things that matter (the fact that we have 150 students and 15 faculty to teach them, the fact that 98% of DO schools have not a SINGLE R01 and have now had to beg and grovel with an "agreement" with a MINOR public university so that they can say "see we are research intensive") while up playing the things that don't matter (talking about GME based on the AOA webpage without reading things like faculty to resident ratio or how mans beds the hospital will have).

Every applicant and pre-DO deserves the right to understand the limitation and as I said I will fight tooth and nail to ensure that those that say "there's no limits only opportunity" are shut down.

Looks like someone didn't go to class today...

 

[AlteredScale]

Looks like someone didn't go to class today...

It's your fault! The comfort of my apt is too good to leave.

 

[cliquesh]

Good job. I have nothing to add.

 

[ortnakas]

I love that a thread about not having MD vs DO threads turned into a MD vs DO thread.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I love that a thread about not having MD vs DO threads turned into a MD vs DO thread.

Right? Just proves my point.


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[0dee]

Are you saying that I will not be able to match into UCSF Derm as a DO? My dreams have been shattered.
On a real note, from past experience, those who try to make the anti-DO bias seem like it is non-existent are the pre MD gunners who couldn't get into MD so they applied to DO. I would take any tier MD acceptance over top DO schools like KCU and PCOM. Does that make the MDs better than DOs? not really, but these two letters "MD" open up more doors and I would have less barriers in my career in the future.

 

[Goro]

Some qualification needed. While NYU IM might have a "no dogs, Irish or DOs need apply" sign hung in the window, their PM&R program takes DOs. And Stanford's PM&R programs takes DOs as well.

I don't know which program it was, but I'm pretty sure some DO's have gone into MGH.

1000% agree with the bolded!

"Handful" is quite an understatement my friend. You'll come to understand what I mean by either accepting it through what we have said or burying your head till 4th year realizing you didn't match because you shotgunned your application to do ENT or Derm thinking "well I don't believe there's any bias" and ending up unmatched, with 300K of private loans (if you're set on BCOM) sitting on your head. What makes this more upsetting is when people continue to dispel the utter myth that DO's CAN make it to prestigious places and essentially tricking them into believing so. Because not even a 99th percentile USMLE and or COMLEX score will get you an interview at MGH/UCSD/UCSF/UCLA/Stanford/UW/UPMC/NYU/BWH/BMC/UPenn/NYP..... yet a 230 from and MD school could get you interviews from a handful of those places. Pretending the bias doesn't exist and acting like everything is fine only perpetuates this continual bias on our side.

If we as a entity want this bias to go away then cut class sizes, stop sending DO students to podunk community hospitals to do their IM block with a doc who has never had experience teaching medical students, stop hiring minimal faculty to teach students, start creating real research initiatives as supposed to ZERO impact factor output in the JAOA, stop lying on match lists saying a grad went to UChicago for internal medicine when it was NorthShore or landed IM at UPMC when it was the community hospital, stop opening up new schools and start focusing on bettering the schools you have currently.

The issue that both @SynapticDoctah and I are concerned of is that these "MD vs DO" threads are more of simply worrying and or complaining. If you're a DO student, you made that choice. Instead of posting ANOTHER "vs" thread, take action and do something. If you want to do academic medicine then you need to find the right mentors and go out there and work your tail off. At least at that point you can have some self-dignity to say you worked hard to reach for the stars as supposed to cruising and acting shocked because you played naive the whole way through thinking that you were entitled to get "x" residency just because you killed you COMLEX.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Some qualification needed. While NYU IM might have a "no dogs, Irish or DOs need apply" sign hung in the window, their PM&R program takes DOs. And Stanford's PM&R programs takes DOs as well.

I don't know which program it was, but I'm pretty sure some DO's have gone into MGH.

1000% agree with the bolded!

So does Harvard/Spaulding PM&R and Mayo/Rochester PM&R (both considered top programs amongst the PM&R sub forums). That door for PM&R is so busted wide open for DOs it can't close anymore.

Harvard/Spaulding
http://pmr.hms.harvard.edu/pages/66/114

Mayo/Rochester
http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residenci...itation-residency-minnesota/resident-profiles

 

[68PGunner]

There's other biases that come into play there, however, which make specializing difficult for those without prior service unless you are willing to extend your commitment way beyond the 8 years and do a few GMO tours first. And then there's the bias they have toward the MDs that come out of USUHS, which get damn near their pick of residency because of the points they are afforded due to the system.

As someone who's very familiar with the system, you're entirely wrong. Neither prior service, GMO, or USUHS matter jack. The biggest factor is the PD rating on you based on your interview which counts for 80% of your points.
Fellowship selection is close to 100% if you decide to stay with the military after your 4 yr obligation. USUHS grads also don't get first dib. That's the biggest load of bs spread by premeds and USUHS students. Ther are plenty of USUHS grads going into internal med and family practice.

 

[Mad Jack]

As someone who's very familiar with the system, you're entirely wrong. Neither prior service, GMO, or USUHS matter jack. The biggest factor is the PD rating on you based on your interview which counts for 80% of your points.
Fellowship selection is close to 100% if you decide to stay with the military after your 4 yr obligation. USUHS grads also don't get first dib. That's the biggest load of bs spread by premeds and USUHS students. Ther are plenty of USUHS grads going into internal med and family practice.

http://www.militarygme.org/3.html

Scoring Sheets
Many programs use the same scoring system for rating GME applications. The Air Force is rumored to be more strict about following the scoring process. The Army and the Navy are less strict about following the system down to the letter. Some residency programs have their own unique criteria. All services try to take into account the entire application, and not just the parts that can be specifically awarded points. Nonetheless, an understanding of the JSGMEB "point system" can be useful when putting together an application. Medical students can earn a maximum of 10 points. Two points for your first two years of medical school and your USMLE Step 1 score, three points for your third year of medical school and your USMLE Step 2 score, and the five remaining points for your interviews/essays/letters of recommendation/etc. "Extra Credit" points are also given for prior military service and research. These same scoring sheets are used for those applying for fellowships, second residencies, and other training opportunities. For a copy of the scoring sheets used by the 2009 JSGMEB, click below. For an explanation of the scoring sheets also click below.

You can only be awarded 10 points (plus some research points) as a student. The interview gets you up to six of those points. A GMO tour gives you up to FIVE bonus points, and prior military service (USUHS used to count as active service but no longer does, so that's no longer an advantage) gets you an extra two points. So you can get seven extra points if you've got service and GMO time, which can put you head and shoulders above a fresh grad.

 

[68PGunner]

http://www.militarygme.org/3.html

Scoring Sheets
Many programs use the same scoring system for rating GME applications. The Air Force is rumored to be more strict about following the scoring process. The Army and the Navy are less strict about following the system down to the letter. Some residency programs have their own unique criteria. All services try to take into account the entire application, and not just the parts that can be specifically awarded points. Nonetheless, an understanding of the JSGMEB "point system" can be useful when putting together an application. Medical students can earn a maximum of 10 points. Two points for your first two years of medical school and your USMLE Step 1 score, three points for your third year of medical school and your USMLE Step 2 score, and the five remaining points for your interviews/essays/letters of recommendation/etc. "Extra Credit" points are also given for prior military service and research. These same scoring sheets are used for those applying for fellowships, second residencies, and other training opportunities. For a copy of the scoring sheets used by the 2009 JSGMEB, click below. For an explanation of the scoring sheets also click below.

You can only be awarded 10 points (plus some research points) as a student. The interview gets you up to six of those points. A GMO tour gives you up to FIVE bonus points, and prior military service (USUHS used to count as active service but no longer does, so that's no longer an advantage) gets you an extra two points. So you can get seven extra points if you've got service and GMO time, which can put you head and shoulders above a fresh grad.

You do realize that a GMO applicant will compete against a GMO applicant and not against fresh med grads, right? For every residency, there's only a limited amount of slots for people with GMO. Therefore, the advantage of a GMO tour is negligible.

It's not really that hard to max out research, USMLE, and grades if you're a solid applicant. The difference maker will be your interview. Again, your interview is the deciding factor.

 

[Dr. Death]

It's your fault! The comfort of my apt is too good to leave.

Remember when you were a cute cat? I miss those days. Now you are terrifying.

 

[gerges]

Because not even a 99th percentile USMLE and or COMLEX score will get you an interview at MGH/UCSD/UCSF/UCLA/Stanford/UW/UPMC/NYU/BWH/BMC/UPenn/NYP..... yet a 230 from and MD school could get you interviews from a handful of those places. Pretending the bias doesn't exist and acting like everything is fine only perpetuates this continual bias on our side.

I agree. Any pre-DO should go into this knowing that they are disadvantaged relative to MDs. But I didn't know that biases existed on the caliber you've presented here. The annoying thing for premeds like myself is that we have no way of knowing this without people like you pointing out specifics. If someone that isn't coming from the DO side of things says something like this we think they're just trying to stir up some dormant neuroticism since someone else will come along and says many of my colleagues are DOs so we find solace in their defense. The point I'm making here though is its very difficult to get any 'quantifiable' idea of what it takes to overcome the disadvantage of this bias. For a given ACGME residency spot, does a DO have to really work 5x as hard as an MD counterpart. Is it to such a degree that if that same DO were an MD he would be regarded as far outclassing the aforementioned MD? We know its tougher, but no one really bothers to give an idea of roughly how much tougher it is.

Generally speaking I feel that I've been fed the idea that these disadvantages have generally vanished in particular when it comes to primary care residencies, but is there a drastic difference in the difficulty for a DO to match in Internal Medicine vs Family Medicine? What if I decide I want to do a subspecialty of Internal Medicine? Will being a DO still be a barrier to me getting into a fellowship in endocrinology? What factors that I can control will best increase my odds of getting into an excellent fellowship program in an IM subspecialty? Is where I do my residency an important factor? In my experience, I have found that the answers to these kinds of questions are generally inaccessible. The people who can give me a good and honest response to these questions are those who are currently in the process of doing these things, and they seem to be too busy (and rightfully so) with trying to get their situation sorted to actually give an answer that has any spec of certainty to a premed pleb like myself.

I personally feel the most important question a premed should ask themselves when considering osteopathic medicine is this: Would you be happy/content (the words are synonymous in my book) with being a primary care physician? For me the answer is yes, but I feel that I have limited ways of knowing if I like something else enough to pursue it and I feel that I won't know that for certain until I'm well into medical school. And to be honest, it would suck knowing that one of the reasons I may or may not pursue it is because of the kind of school I chose to go to, but at least I know I'll still be happy and I've got no right to complain based on the decision I made.

Edit: to add a little sidenote. I understand that schools need to be more proactive in taking the necessary steps to make these biases go away. However, something that I have always had a hard time understanding is if these things matter that much (faculty:student ratio, quality of rotations, opportunities for research, etc) and/or are in someway a testament to the quality of the physicians that osteopathic medical institutions produce why do DOs have no issue when it comes to the matching in the military?

 

[AlteredScale]

I agree. Any pre-DO should go into this knowing that they are disadvantaged relative to MDs. But I didn't know that biases existed on the caliber you've presented here. The annoying thing for premeds like myself is that we have no way of knowing this without people like you pointing out specifics. If someone that isn't coming from the DO side of things says something like this we think they're just trying to stir up some dormant neuroticism since someone else will come along and says many of my colleagues are DOs so we find solace in their defense. The point I'm making here though is its very difficult to get any 'quantifiable' idea of what it takes to overcome the disadvantage of this bias. For a given ACGME residency spot, does a DO have to really work 5x as hard as an MD counterpart. Is it to such a degree that if that same DO were an MD he would be regarded as far outclassing the aforementioned MD? We know its tougher, but no one really bothers to give an idea of roughly how much tougher it is.

Generally speaking I feel that I've been fed the idea that these disadvantages have generally vanished in particular when it comes to primary care residencies, but is there a drastic difference in the difficulty for a DO to match in Internal Medicine vs Family Medicine? What if I decide I want to do a subspecialty of Internal Medicine? Will being a DO still be a barrier to me getting into a fellowship in endocrinology? What factors that I can control will best increase my odds of getting into an excellent fellowship program in an IM subspecialty? Is where I do my residency an important factor? In my experience, I have found that the answers to these kinds of questions are generally inaccessible. The people who can give me a good and honest response to these questions are those who are currently in the process of doing these things, and they seem to be too busy (and rightfully so) with trying to get their situation sorted to actually give an answer that has any spec of certainty to a premed pleb like myself.

I personally feel the most important question a premed should ask themselves when considering osteopathic medicine is this: Would you be happy/content (the words are synonymous in my book) with being a primary care physician? For me the answer is yes, but I feel that I won't know if I like something else enough to pursue it and I feel that I won't know that for certain until I'm well into medical school. And to be honest, it would suck knowing that one of the reasons I may or may not pursue it is because of the kind of school I chose to go to, but at least I know I'll still be happy and I've got no right to complain based on the decision I made.

Having to work harder than someone going to an MD school comes with the fact that there are very limited resources to most DO schools. Want to do some ENT research? Too bad because the school doesnt even have a working surgical department to help you out. Even a "bottom-feeder" MD school will have something of a resource or connection to help them. Under LCME this is a hard requirement.

Fellowship is too far down the line to say how it would affect you, the biggest barrier is getting into a residency thatll provide you with the things you need to get into fellowship and to see the match rates into fellowship from previous residency classes.

Your question regarding IM and/or FM is complex. FM is generally easy for anyone. IM is different. Academic/university hospital, many are open to DOs but theres a large group that just dont consider us. If you are doing IM for primary care than it shouldnt be such a fight.

Just to conclude, no matter what the challenges, we can all work hard to get there. The hard part is trying to figure out who is telling the truth while blindfolded, the one who says the wall is 3 feet tall. or the one who says its 30.

 

[AlteredScale]

Some qualification needed. While NYU IM might have a "no dogs, Irish or DOs need apply" sign hung in the window, their PM&R program takes DOs. And Stanford's PM&R programs takes DOs as well.

I don't know which program it was, but I'm pretty sure some DO's have gone into MGH.

1000% agree with the bolded!

I def have watched this aspect carefully with regards to where DOs are ending up. What I wonde is if DOs simply dont apply to IM, thus perpetuating the fact that no DOs have entered the program!

 

[Medschoolornah]

forget about surgical subspecialties... but if a DO has competitive scores he should be able to get into an allo GS program right?

 

[Goro]

S/he will be among the 5% like literally every other med school.

8% of Mercer grads go into GS. Go figure.

forget about surgical subspecialties... but if a DO has competitive scores he should be able to get into an allo GS program right?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

S/he will be among the 5% like literally every other med school.

8% of Mercer grads go into GS. Go figure.

All it takes is one I&D of a peri-rectal abscess either during third year rotations or before med school to nip any desire to do General surgery in the bud for most applicants. Literally smells up the whole surgical wing of the hospital

 

[Philotic]

I honestly think the only things we need to have in a thread titled any variation of "MD vs DO" are:

1) Reported statistics/outcomes of matches. Yes, numbers can lie, but seriously, if you can find the information that "oh, this match was bogus, it was actually a small tiny hospital and not associated in any way with the big-name institution," then so can any applicant or current student or alumni (unless their google skills are terrible). Present the numbers and let the applicant do the critical thinking and decision making. If they're applying to med school, they should be able to do this at least.

2) Actual testimonies from 4th years & graduates who are trying to match or have already matched. Hearsay is hearsay. Hearing it from the source will only mitigate some of the bias, of course, but in my humble opinion, it's still better than playing a gigantic conjecture game that goes in circles with "oh I heard this one guy say this in the bathroom," or "a friend of a friend of my cousin's brother's friend's boyfriend told me he didn't match into derm at this one school out of 260 students."

It's not up to us to sway the applicant one way or the other. We should present our facts and testimonies so that the applicant can make the best possible informed decision.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I understand the bias against osteopathic physicians, but if your goal is to attend a top university hospital for residency and to participate in ground breaking research, then you shouldn't apply to DO schools at all. I have zero sympathy for MD rejects who use DO schools as a fallback. I am happy with my choice of pursuing Osteopathic medicine, it was a conscientious choice I made and I went into this application cycle knowing my top choice as a DO school. I would honestly choose a DO school over my state MD school call me crazy, but that is my choice and I really could care less about prestige as long as I am happy and the school can provide me with the education I need to succeed. Luckily for me I have an unfair advantage and a desired field that is "easier" for osteopathic physicians to train in. I am 100% content and in no way am I picky about my residency, I am just grateful for the opportunity. However, I do not see the point in making a thread to complain about another type of thread it seems a bit redundant if you ask me.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I agree. Any pre-DO should go into this knowing that they are disadvantaged relative to MDs. But I didn't know that biases existed on the caliber you've presented here. The annoying thing for premeds like myself is that we have no way of knowing this without people like you pointing out specifics. If someone that isn't coming from the DO side of things says something like this we think they're just trying to stir up some dormant neuroticism since someone else will come along and says many of my colleagues are DOs so we find solace in their defense. The point I'm making here though is its very difficult to get any 'quantifiable' idea of what it takes to overcome the disadvantage of this bias. For a given ACGME residency spot, does a DO have to really work 5x as hard as an MD counterpart. Is it to such a degree that if that same DO were an MD he would be regarded as far outclassing the aforementioned MD? We know its tougher, but no one really bothers to give an idea of roughly how much tougher it is.

Generally speaking I feel that I've been fed the idea that these disadvantages have generally vanished in particular when it comes to primary care residencies, but is there a drastic difference in the difficulty for a DO to match in Internal Medicine vs Family Medicine? What if I decide I want to do a subspecialty of Internal Medicine? Will being a DO still be a barrier to me getting into a fellowship in endocrinology? What factors that I can control will best increase my odds of getting into an excellent fellowship program in an IM subspecialty? Is where I do my residency an important factor? In my experience, I have found that the answers to these kinds of questions are generally inaccessible. The people who can give me a good and honest response to these questions are those who are currently in the process of doing these things, and they seem to be too busy (and rightfully so) with trying to get their situation sorted to actually give an answer that has any spec of certainty to a premed pleb like myself.

I personally feel the most important question a premed should ask themselves when considering osteopathic medicine is this: Would you be happy/content (the words are synonymous in my book) with being a primary care physician? For me the answer is yes, but I feel that I have limited ways of knowing if I like something else enough to pursue it and I feel that I won't know that for certain until I'm well into medical school. And to be honest, it would suck knowing that one of the reasons I may or may not pursue it is because of the kind of school I chose to go to, but at least I know I'll still be happy and I've got no right to complain based on the decision I made.

Edit: to add a little sidenote. I understand that schools need to be more proactive in taking the necessary steps to make these biases go away. However, something that I have always had a hard time understanding is if these things matter that much (faculty:student ratio, quality of rotations, opportunities for research, etc) and/or are in someway a testament to the quality of the physicians that osteopathic medical institutions produce why do DOs have no issue when it comes to the matching in the military?

This feels like me several years ago. It is not just working harder unfortunately, it is worse than this. A program director will "filter out" applicants hence caribbean and DO students are out of the mix (you can look at the NRMP survey reports to see which programs interview DOs, this may in part be due to the filter). So if you were that DO student with a 270 USLME score, the program director will not see it. This is the "MD advantage" that you are hearing about. Then you have this limited selection of programs where you will need to work harder to get into. This adds another level of difficulty. However, this is not as true for residencies such as PM&R, Anesthesiology (well currently), Family Med, and I believe Psychiatry (?).

In order to understand this "tier" thing better, go beyond the pre-medical forums and visit allo/osteo/residency forums. My understanding of this just sky rocketed by reading them. You will never be able to even know about how competitive programs are unless you have a one on one session with program directors, as pre-medical students this is not possible. However, SDN is the next best thing because you have the medical students and residents who are or have gone through the process. Just see their responses on the medical school forums and residency forms and you will gain a better understanding of this.

You have mentioned about wanting endocrinology. As mentioned by @AlteredScale, it is quite far down the line to be worried about it. Your mind might change, but I can understand where you are coming from. The main thing is to be comfortable with the residency you want to go into and don't choose your residency based on fellowship alone. You can just as easily want gastro and not match and end up stuck in internal medicine. This is something to consider.

If you want to match into a fellowship, then go as high as you can go. Endocrinology is not as difficult to get a fellowship in as gastro, card, or heme/onc. So it is more possible even from a low tier university hospital (but would be easier to match from a mid tier to high tier hospital). Main thing is to do the best you can in order to make this possible. Read the forums, especially residency and sub specialty forums, to get a better understanding of what it takes to match. This will help you understand "tiers," what makes a quality program, and what you will need to do on your end.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Can a DO use the force?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Can a DO use the force?

Doctor of Jedi Mind Tricks

I'm applying to dual programs, DO/DJMT. Then I'm going I charge up the nose for my intergalactic services

 

[Officer Farva]

The majority of MD's are not renowned neurosurgeons either. Sorry brah, you can't all be renowned! But I know as a D.O., I am going to have every opportunity I need to fulfill my professional goals in my community. And that's all that matters to me.

THIS. I was interviewing at an MD school once, and the interviewer (your average general internist, nothing special) made a condescending comment about DO/IMG docs, which I took with great offense since my family immigrated here. In my mind, I was saying: "If you were a big shot here, you would not be interviewing me. You would be too busy discovering something in the lab or publishing cutting edge clinical findings."

 

[costales]

THIS. I was interviewing at an MD school once, and the interviewer (your average general internist, nothing special) made a condescending comment about DO/IMG docs, which I took with great offense since my family immigrated here.

I once dated a girl who seemed to have a habit of looking at other women's purses and comparing them to her brand. I dated her once.

 

[Medschoolornah]

I once dated a girl who seemed to have a habit of looking at other women's purses and comparing them to her brand. I dated her once.

You dated her too?

 

[OverlyRomantic]

You dated her too?

You guys as well!?

 

[Oh_Gee]

Can a DO use the force?

Just don't use it to destroy the physician computer room when you have a bad day and we're cool

 

[Oh_Gee]

THIS. I was interviewing at an MD school once, and the interviewer (your average general internist, nothing special) made a condescending comment about DO/IMG docs, which I took with great offense since my family immigrated here. In my mind, I was saying: "If you were a big shot here, you would not be interviewing me. You would be too busy discovering something in the lab or publishing cutting edge clinical findings."

how'd the rest of that interview go?

 

[qwerty89]

Here is a post from the Radiology Rank List thread.

USMLE: 256/268
Class Rank: 1/162
Research: 5 "experiences", 3 posters, 1 abstract, 0 pubs
Clinical Grades: all Honors

Rank List:
1. CCF
2. UPMC
3. Dartmouth
4. Penn State
5. Yale
6. UF-Gainesville
7. USF
8. Beaumont
9. Nebraska
10. UF-Jacksonville

Rejections: MIR, Mayo, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, MCW, Wisconsin, Case-UH, UAB, MGH, BWH, NW, Loyola, Rush

He was a DO applicant.

This is a concrete example of the bias others with experience have mentioned. You can choose to put your head in the sand but it is what it is.

MCW did start interviewing DOs this year. But that has more to do with the fact that they matched only 2/8 last year and then 5/8 the year before that.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Here is a post from the Radiology Rank List thread.



He was a DO applicant.

This is a concrete example of the bias others with experience have mentioned. You can choose to put your head in the sand but it is what it is.

MCW did start interviewing DOs this year. But that has more to do with the fact that they matched only 2/8 last year and then 5/8 the year before that.

And not one of them is a top tier program...

 

[AlteredScale]

Here is a post from the Radiology Rank List thread.



He was a DO applicant.

This is a concrete example of the bias others with experience have mentioned. You can choose to put your head in the sand but it is what it is.

MCW did start interviewing DOs this year. But that has more to do with the fact that they matched only 2/8 last year and then 5/8 the year before that.

I know people are gunna say "who cares if it's a top tier program" but seriously, it's like getting a 41 on the MCAT, having great ECs and LORs, and not getting a single ii from a top and some mid tier MD schools simply on the basis that your degree was a B.A. I cannot imagine how hard that must be to score that high on the USMLE and STILL be discounted and discredited.


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