Before starting the surgery rotation...

[PoorMD]

...what would you have studied to make life easier? I have about 5 days off thanks to a scheduling loop, and I wanted to use the time to freshen up.

I want to focus on strictly one thing, i.e. anatomy of the pelvis, anatomy of the abdomen, medicine type review, or should i just dig into the NMS Surgery cases book?

im trying to do well on this rotation. thanks

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[Ashers]

I'm just getting off surgery. I had CT and the guts and butts service at the main hospital for my school. What you study depends on what rotations you have. I never saw any surgery involving the pancreas, liver, etc. I saw bariatric surgeries, small bowel disease (100% Crohn's), and some colon stuff (mix of crohn's, cancer, diverticulosis).

In the 5 days, SLEEP! My friends have told me I look perpetually tired since January when I started. I'm counting down the days I'm done partially because I haven't liked the rotations (bowel = nasty to me), also because of some bad residents, students. However, I want to go into something surgical (ortho -- no guts), so that made it extra hard. Review that anatomy stuff if you want. The first day of the service, at least here, they don't expect you to know anything, but they do want you to be reading at night, and reviewing for upcoming cases.

 

[Top Gun]

...what would you have studied to make life easier? I have about 5 days off thanks to a scheduling loop, and I wanted to use the time to freshen up.

I want to focus on strictly one thing, i.e. anatomy of the pelvis, anatomy of the abdomen, medicine type review, or should i just dig into the NMS Surgery cases book?

im trying to do well on this rotation. thanks

I studied Lawrence's Essentials of General Surgery. It was the recommended textbook for our rotation. Anyway, it worked for me. I ended up getting an A in my surgery rotation.

 

[Blade28]

I studied Lawrence's Essentials of General Surgery. It was the recommended textbook for our rotation. Anyway, it worked for me. I ended up getting an A in my surgery rotation.

I second that.

I Xeroxed my copy and had a chapter with me at all times (in the back pocket of my scrubs). I'd read a few pages whenever I had downtime.

 

[smq123]

...what would you have studied to make life easier? I have about 5 days off thanks to a scheduling loop, and I wanted to use the time to freshen up.

I want to focus on strictly one thing, i.e. anatomy of the pelvis, anatomy of the abdomen, medicine type review, or should i just dig into the NMS Surgery cases book?

im trying to do well on this rotation. thanks

I'd take a day and review the surgical instruments. (There are good websites with pictures.) I'd also practice opening and closing a needle driver, and tying two-handed knots.

In those five days, if you can just review some of the most frequent scenarios on the shelf exam and how they're treated, that will help - trauma, cholecystitis, appendicitis, surgical abdomen, SBO, post-op complications (atelectasis, ileus), shock.

A lot of the stuff that I was pimped on involved those above scenarios, particularly trauma. The other stuff that I was pimped on was stuff that I would never have been able to study - i.e., "Who won Wimbledon in 1987?"

Doing well on the surgery rotation really involves mostly being easy to get along with, working hard, volunteering to help the team out, and not complaining. (Because no matter how bad you have it, the residents always have it worse!) This is stuff that you can't really study up on.

Review the anatomy the night before the case. That way it will be freshest in your mind.

 

[Anka]

I was lucky enough to start on a subspecialty rotation, so I just read up heavily on that -- relevant section from Lawrence, and very high yeild stuff from Sabiston and Spencer (I was starting with thoracic, and read up on the lung cancer staging stuff). It was extremely helpful.

Anka

 

[Blade28]

The other stuff that I was pimped on was stuff that I would never have been able to study - i.e., "Who won Wimbledon in 1987?"

I actually happen to know that one! For the men's, it was Pat Cash - I remember this because the very next year my idol, Stefan Edberg, won the first of his two titles (beating rival Boris Becker both times, no less!).

For the women's, it was still Martina Navratilova, I believe. She was on a tear in the mid-80s until Steffi Graf came along.

 

[velo]

I agree with the earlier posters advise to just sleep. I tried to read a lot of the surgery review books before the rotation and I don't think it helped me a lick. I got asked very few questions during my rotations and they were usually obscure enough questions that it would have been unlikely for me to come across them in my reading (Said one attending, "well I'm not going to ask you something I think you'll know!")

At the end of the day I discovered that I didn't really like surgery, BUT I got honors across the board doing the following.
#1 NEVER complaining about ANYTHING and (no matter how much I hated being there that day) acting super enthusiastic about everything, as in, "What, there's room for me in that 12hr thoracic outlet syndrome case? Great, yeah I'd love to go!!" While thinking 'oh my god I hate the OR that sounds horrible i'm going to spend the next half hour eating...'

#2 Doing as much little chicken **** work as I could do, like getting charts together in the morning, filling out as much of the notes as I was able to, changing dressings, doing post op checks, blah blah blah. This is not stuff you can really "prepare" for because it doesn't take a lot of know-how and you'll figure out how to do it pretty quick on service, but it means less work for the rest of your over-worked team and they'll love you for it

#3 Not asking questions during cases. This is not medicine. I didn't meet a lot of people on my surgery rotation who valued an inquisitive mind. In general, they took asking questions as a sign that I didn't know things and proceeded to ask me about other things I don't know whenever I did it. Just keep your mouth shut, there are stupid questions in surgery. Oh and if you're asked a question and you don't know the answer, just stall until something happens in the case that requires their attention and they'll forget you were talking....used that all the time, worked like a charm...

#4 Rock the shelf. Pretty self explanatory. Like all rotations you should take advantage of this one purely objective portion of your grading.

velo

 

[njbmd]

Studying specific areas of anatomy are pretty low-yield unless you know exactly which areas of surgery you will be rotating through. Even then, you need to know the surgical anatomy and not the gross anatomy.

As others have mentioned, learn to tie (and be comfortable with) at least a two-handed knot. You can get a knot-tying board from Ethicon by doing a Google Search and practice.

The best way to stay motivated and less fatigued is to be in good physical condition. Get some regular aerobic exercise and stay with it. Don't forget to strengthen your abs (prevents back strain) too.

Avoid high fat foods and dehydration secondary to too much caffeine (too much coffee/Mountain Dew/Rock Star). Caffeine is a great diuretic so flooding your system with it can cause you to be miserable during a long case. Drink water period and realize that if you keep caffeine in moderation,urinate before you start a case, that you will likely not need to "go" during the case.

Eat good protein before you enter the OR. This is not the rotation to skip breakfast/lunch on. You will end up lightheaded and feeling miserable.

Ask the scrub personnel for unused/expired sutures and ties so you can practice with these. Ask your residents to show you the fine points of closing skin and volunteer to do this at every case. Ask to write the brief op note and do this correctly and efficiently.

Learn how to drive camera on laparoscopic cases. There is a short learning curve but this is a great skill that will earn many points if you do it well.

Develop a "thick skin" and don't take anything personally. For most people, this is the only opportunity you will have to learn anything about surgery. Make the most of your experience. If you are thoroughly miserable, the clock ticks and soon the rotation will end but don't underestimate the learning potential here. You get one shot at this so get your tuition money's worth of learning (be proactive).

Don't lie. If you didn't look at something, say you didn't examine it. If you see anything peculiar about a wound (learn how to peek under a dressing), let your intern/resident know. You need to know more about your patients than anyone else on the team.

Learn to give a good surgical presentation(short and to the point) without reading your note for AM rounds. Try to do anything that helps the team (especially helping your fellow medical students). If the resident tells you to go home and read then go home and read.

Good rotation books are:
Lawrence - as mentioned above. You can keep this in your locker to use for daily reading. Read the introductory chapter on Trauma, Fluid Balance and general care of the surgical patient. Read every day even if it's 30 minutes and you are post call tired. Learn to read when you are tired as this is a good skill for any rotation.
Surgical Recall- this can go in your pocket for quick reference between cases.
Use the library's copies of Schwartz, Sabiston or Greenfield if you need to do a report or presentation. If you are planning on going into surgery, don't purchase one of these texts until you find out what your residency uses.

 

[PoorMD]

Very helpful advice. Thanks to all

 

[vtucci]

I am doing my surgery clerkship now but I will be happy to pass along the advice given to me by my intern....

Sleep when you can, eat when you can and sit when you can.

 

[Top Gun]

I am doing my surgery clerkship now but I will be happy to pass along the advice given to me by my intern....

Sleep when you can, eat when you can and sit when you can.

You forgot, go to the bathroom when you can.

 

[waterlily]

I have a few days free before I start my surgery rotation too. Everyone recommends surgical recall and lawrence to studying throughout the rotation, but BEFORE the rotation starts, do you recommend that Lawrence would be the text to read to just learn the pertinent topics before starting surgery or should I use Recall, FA for the Wards, or anything else?

 

[getunconcsious]

I'd recommend getting used to being berated, belittled, abused, and just generally $hit on. I don't know how you can practice for that or read ahead tho. Maybe recruit someone to tell you how awful you are, don't know anything, and can't do anything right. I bet you could ask Tired from SDN. He'd probably jump at the chance to help you in this way.

But seriously, good luck, it's going to be a very LOOOOONG month. I'm on surgery now and kinda want to die.

 

[smq123]

I have a few days free before I start my surgery rotation too. Everyone recommends surgical recall and lawrence to studying throughout the rotation, but BEFORE the rotation starts, do you recommend that Lawrence would be the text to read to just learn the pertinent topics before starting surgery or should I use Recall, FA for the Wards, or anything else?

I actually didn't like Lawrence OR Surgical Recall.

I had surgical subspecialties before general surgery. The subspecialties were theoretically supposed to be less demanding than the general surgery part, so it was recommended that we "pre-study" during that time.

I tried reading Lawrence, and got drowned in the details. I just didn't know which topics were important, so I kind of had a hard time focusing. It's hard to know what's important unless you're actually ON the rotation, so I thought pre-reading Lawrence was totally useless.

Read Pestana (you can download it from somewhere on SDN), and flip through Case Files. The topics that they focus on are really the important topics for the 3rd year surgery rotation - how to run a trauma, how to work up an acute abdomen, etc. The rest you'll be encouraged to read up on as you encounter it on your rotation.

 

[DrDre311]

#3 Not asking questions during cases. This is not medicine. I didn't meet a lot of people on my surgery rotation who valued an inquisitive mind. In general, they took asking questions as a sign that I didn't know things and proceeded to ask me about other things I don't know whenever I did it. Just keep your mouth shut, there are stupid questions in surgery. Oh and if you're asked a question and you don't know the answer, just stall until something happens in the case that requires their attention and they'll forget you were talking....used that all the time, worked like a charm...

This is an interesting way to look at things. I disagree, but it does raise a point worth talking about. It is a fact that in surgery you are judged for what you don't know. Sometimes you will be made to feel stupid for not knowing things that you could only have known by already having done the rotation/seen the case/whatever.

Unfortunately, if you are interested in surgery, you have to be able to get around this mentality. The best way to show interest/knowledge is to ask questions during cases. As Velo points out, if you ask a question then you make yourself fair game for pimping. So you have to be careful about what questions you ask and when you ask them. A good way to approach this is to make sure you have pre-read for the case using whatever book/atlas you prefer--and then you have to set your questions up in such a fashion that you reveal that you have read for the case. I always tried to ask questions that were a little "beyond medical student level" and phrase them in such a way that I could predict what questions I would be asked as a result.

It's difficult, and requires you to take care with how you choose your words. You don't want to ask extremely basic questions that reveal that you haven't read for the case, but you have to have a way to show off your knowledge without seeming like a know-it-all if you want to shine in front of surgeons. It also goes without saying that you shouldn't ask a question during a difficult/stressful part of the case because you won't get a good response.

Let's say you're doing a total thyroid: read over the anatomy, know the indications for a thyroidectomy (thyroididities, cancer, Graves, etc.), differences in outcomes for total vs. partial resections, potential complications and how to monitor/manage them postoperatively. During the case, you should realize that it's important not to injure the recurrent laryngeal nerve.

So you might ask, "Dr. General, I haven't seen this case before and I'd like to reinforce the anatomy. When you get a chance, would you mind letting me have a look when you expose the recurrent laryngeal nerve?" The expected follow-up question would be "What nerve does the recurrent laryngeal branch off?" then "What would you expect to happen if we damage the nerve?" then "What do you mean, paralyzed vocal cords? Are they flaccid, or rigid, or what happens?" and so on. You could also ask the attending to point out the parathyroid glands and then be asked about hypocalcemia, Chvostek's and Trousseau's signs, where you can reimplant a parathyroid gland should it be accidentally removed, intraoperative PTH, etc.

Even if you do figure out a way to ask questions in such a fashion that you get to sound smart without revealing that this was your goal in asking the question, you should be aware that in general you will be asked successive questions until you cannot answer one. It's just the way surgery works--your elders will get the last word and they do know things that you don't. You just have to get used to it.

 

[DrDre311]

I actually didn't like Lawrence OR Surgical Recall.

I had surgical subspecialties before general surgery. The subspecialties were theoretically supposed to be less demanding than the general surgery part, so it was recommended that we "pre-study" during that time.

I tried reading Lawrence, and got drowned in the details. I just didn't know which topics were important, so I kind of had a hard time focusing. It's hard to know what's important unless you're actually ON the rotation, so I thought pre-reading Lawrence was totally useless.

Read Pestana (you can download it from somewhere on SDN), and flip through Case Files. The topics that they focus on are really the important topics for the 3rd year surgery rotation - how to run a trauma, how to work up an acute abdomen, etc. The rest you'll be encouraged to read up on as you encounter it on your rotation.

Recall is good for OR pimp questions. It is not perfect and it's not good for the shelf, but it fits in your pocket and it's great for a quick read right before a case.

For studying I recommend NMS Surgery and the questions at the end of each chapter. It can be dry but it's pretty good for most things.

 

[lil pook]

ditto what getunconscious said

if you are unlucky enough to land a malignant team (which odds are you probably will) the best things to do are not piss anyone off, not give anyone fuel and ammo to use against you, and if pimped appear somewhat well read.

this can be achieved by

1) zipping your lips- nobody cares about what you think, so keep your mouth shut and only speak when spoken to

2)do what you're told- screwing up gives em ammo and you don't want that...believe me

3)check your attitude at the door. DO NOT EVER appear miserable even though you just wish you could jump off a bridge. because no matter how bad you think you have it, some resident has it 10 times worse.

another useful tidbit is try to make yourself present but scarce. this is hard to achieve but very useful to your survival. you wanna be around for what you're supposed to be around for, but not always within sight.

trust me, your role as a student rotating through surgery is nothing. the less you are around, the better...just don't be absent when you should be present....hope that makes sense. if not, you'll see what i mean.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

So you might ask, "Dr. General, I haven't seen this case before and I'd like to reinforce the anatomy. When you get a chance, would you mind letting me have a look when you expose the recurrent laryngeal nerve?" The expected follow-up question would be "What nerve does the recurrent laryngeal branch off?" then "What would you expect to happen if we damage the nerve?" then "What do you mean, paralyzed vocal cords? Are they flaccid, or rigid, or what happens?" and so on. You could also ask the attending to point out the parathyroid glands and then be asked about hypocalcemia, Chvostek's and Trousseau's signs, where you can reimplant a parathyroid gland should it be accidentally removed, intraoperative PTH, etc.

Haha, it's funny you picked that question...I actually asked this question to my surgery attending, phrased almost exactly the same way, on the FIRST DAY of my rotation. Literally, it was the FIRST CASE I'd ever scrubbed in on. Anyway, the attending said, "Are you F-ing kidding me? For F's sake, you're the one at this table closest to their anatomy class, and you're telling me you can't identify the recurrent laryngeal nerve? It sickens me how little you care about your education and you come into my OR and expect me to spoon feed you. Get the F out of here." Not only that, but being my first day, I didn't really know what to do with myself after getting kicked out of the OR (since we didn't have any patients assigned yet), so I paged my junior resident (who I hadn't met yet) who was on the floor. He then proceded to chew me out about how rule #1 of surgery is DO NOT speak unless spoken to. Not good morning, not how are you, not good night, and certainly not to ask some dumb a$$ question in the OR. He was pretty peeved about showing me around on the floor.

Now mind you, this was a particularly malignant personality at what I later learned is a particularly malignant program, so I guess it might be different where others are. But I have tons of stories like the above that happened to me or classmates, so it's definitely not unheard of. I'd encourage you to start out by not speaking unless spoken to, until you get a sense of who you're dealing with. I hear there are surgeons out there who actually don't mind questions and don't constantly berate others, and I'm sure you'd get a lot out of interacting with them, but I think just assuming no one cares what your think or wants to answer your questions is a better place to start. That way, perhaps you'll be pleasantly surprised!

Also, about Recall....there's one attending at our main hospital who hates that book. He hates that there's no 'why' in it and insists that it's filled with errors and oversimplifications. If he catches you with this book in your pocket, he will take it out and throw it on the ground while screaming at you. I saw it once from afar, and it was pretty ridiculous. A friend at another school says her course director also hates it. Perhaps this is a widespead phenomenon?

I really liked the NMS casebook (although it didn't fit in my pocket) and pretest for the shelf. I thought attending rounds was good as well.

Good luck on surgery...despite getting screamed at every day, called more names than I can remember, and sleeping like 4 hours a night, I found the actual field of surgery to be pretty awesome. And even if you don't, it's only a few weeks out of your life. You can do anything for a few weeks!

 

[lil pook]

haha..awesome post. brings back great memories.

but back to the OPs original q.,

i liked Case FIles. its a quick read and touches on most important points.

good luck

 

[leagueelbow]

Good lord I'd wet my pants daily if I worked in an environment like that

 

[DrDre311]

Haha, it's funny you picked that question...I actually asked this question to my surgery attending, phrased almost exactly the same way, on the FIRST DAY of my rotation. Literally, it was the FIRST CASE I'd ever scrubbed in on. Anyway, the attending said, "Are you F-ing kidding me? For F's sake, you're the one at this table closest to their anatomy class, and you're telling me you can't identify the recurrent laryngeal nerve? It sickens me how little you care about your education and you come into my OR and expect me to spoon feed you. Get the F out of here." Not only that, but being my first day, I didn't really know what to do with myself after getting kicked out of the OR (since we didn't have any patients assigned yet), so I paged my junior resident (who I hadn't met yet) who was on the floor. He then proceded to chew me out about how rule #1 of surgery is DO NOT speak unless spoken to. Not good morning, not how are you, not good night, and certainly not to ask some dumb a$$ question in the OR. He was pretty peeved about showing me around on the floor.

Now mind you, this was a particularly malignant personality at what I later learned is a particularly malignant program, so I guess it might be different where others are. But I have tons of stories like the above that happened to me or classmates, so it's definitely not unheard of. I'd encourage you to start out by not speaking unless spoken to, until you get a sense of who you're dealing with. I hear there are surgeons out there who actually don't mind questions and don't constantly berate others, and I'm sure you'd get a lot out of interacting with them, but I think just assuming no one cares what your think or wants to answer your questions is a better place to start. That way, perhaps you'll be pleasantly surprised!

Also, about Recall....there's one attending at our main hospital who hates that book. He hates that there's no 'why' in it and insists that it's filled with errors and oversimplifications. If he catches you with this book in your pocket, he will take it out and throw it on the ground while screaming at you. I saw it once from afar, and it was pretty ridiculous. A friend at another school says her course director also hates it. Perhaps this is a widespead phenomenon?

I really liked the NMS casebook (although it didn't fit in my pocket) and pretest for the shelf. I thought attending rounds was good as well.

Good luck on surgery...despite getting screamed at every day, called more names than I can remember, and sleeping like 4 hours a night, I found the actual field of surgery to be pretty awesome. And even if you don't, it's only a few weeks out of your life. You can do anything for a few weeks!

It's unfortunate that you had to try to learn in an environment like that. I went to med school at a place with a notoriously malignant GS program, and nothing like that ever happened to me--although I did have one attending and a chief resident who hated Recall also. There is an element of the whole "don't speak unless spoken to" thing with general surgeons, but there's also an unwritten corollary to that rule, which is that you have to know when it's OK to break the rule.

Surgeons are going to get their shots in on you and you will get hazed, but if you just take your lumps and show dedication/knowledge/ability, eventually the hazing stops (except maybe at your med school--apparently the hazing goes on and on and on). You just can't let it hurt your feelings.

 

[MJB]

Haha, it's funny you picked that question...I actually asked this question to my surgery attending, phrased almost exactly the same way, on the FIRST DAY of my rotation. Literally, it was the FIRST CASE I'd ever scrubbed in on. Anyway, the attending said, "Are you F-ing kidding me? For F's sake, you're the one at this table closest to their anatomy class, and you're telling me you can't identify the recurrent laryngeal nerve? It sickens me how little you care about your education and you come into my OR and expect me to spoon feed you. Get the F out of here." Not only that, but being my first day, I didn't really know what to do with myself after getting kicked out of the OR (since we didn't have any patients assigned yet), so I paged my junior resident (who I hadn't met yet) who was on the floor. He then proceded to chew me out about how rule #1 of surgery is DO NOT speak unless spoken to. Not good morning, not how are you, not good night, and certainly not to ask some dumb a$$ question in the OR. He was pretty peeved about showing me around on the floor.

Now mind you, this was a particularly malignant personality at what I later learned is a particularly malignant program, so I guess it might be different where others are. But I have tons of stories like the above that happened to me or classmates, so it's definitely not unheard of. I'd encourage you to start out by not speaking unless spoken to, until you get a sense of who you're dealing with. I hear there are surgeons out there who actually don't mind questions and don't constantly berate others, and I'm sure you'd get a lot out of interacting with them, but I think just assuming no one cares what your think or wants to answer your questions is a better place to start. That way, perhaps you'll be pleasantly surprised!

Also, about Recall....there's one attending at our main hospital who hates that book. He hates that there's no 'why' in it and insists that it's filled with errors and oversimplifications. If he catches you with this book in your pocket, he will take it out and throw it on the ground while screaming at you. I saw it once from afar, and it was pretty ridiculous. A friend at another school says her course director also hates it. Perhaps this is a widespead phenomenon?

I really liked the NMS casebook (although it didn't fit in my pocket) and pretest for the shelf. I thought attending rounds was good as well.

Good luck on surgery...despite getting screamed at every day, called more names than I can remember, and sleeping like 4 hours a night, I found the actual field of surgery to be pretty awesome. And even if you don't, it's only a few weeks out of your life. You can do anything for a few weeks!

Sounds like a great learning environment. Exactly how much do you pay to be taught by glorified frat boys?

 

[kate0834tkjn]

It's unfortunate that you had to try to learn in an environment like that. I went to med school at a place with a notoriously malignant GS program, and nothing like that ever happened to me--although I did have one attending and a chief resident who hated Recall also. There is an element of the whole "don't speak unless spoken to" thing with general surgeons, but there's also an unwritten corollary to that rule, which is that you have to know when it's OK to break the rule.

Surgeons are going to get their shots in on you and you will get hazed, but if you just take your lumps and show dedication/knowledge/ability, eventually the hazing stops (except maybe at your med school--apparently the hazing goes on and on and on). You just can't let it hurt your feelings.

Yeah, it was kind of a bummer, especially as the first rotation of third year. The silver lining is that my expectations for people being nice to me got so low after that rotation that people could say pretty much anything to me and it would roll off my back.

At the end of the day, I actually ended up enjoying the actual surgery part of the rotation...I liked the OR, I liked suturing skin with the residents, I liked that it was fast paced, I liked all the peri-op stuff, didn't really mind the hours, even liked clinic OK. I think that if I'd let the attending get me down too much, I would have just sort of cursed surgery and surgeons rather than trying to grin and bear it and get as much out of it as I could. (Although I think I cried at least 3 days a week--privately!)

And even here, the hazing wasn't constant...it was just quite excessive when it was there. In fact, I saw the surgery attending I described above in the elevator the other month and he asked me what specialty I was going in to (I was shocked he remembered me, but apparently, he remembers all his students). I told him I was going into peds and in true form, he was like, "well, I knew you were an f-ing idiot, but I thought even you were too smart for peds..." I think that was the closest thing I ever got to a compliment from him....

Sorry to derail the thread......

 

[kate0834tkjn]

Sounds like a great learning environment. Exactly how much do you pay to be taught by glorified frat boys?

Way,way, way too much....plus interest!

 

[leagueelbow]

Out of curiousity, are you going into surgery? It's amazing someone could stomach all that without ultimately wanting to go into surgery!

 

[dilated]

And even here, the hazing wasn't constant...it was just quite excessive when it was there. In fact, I saw the surgery attending I described above in the elevator the other month and he asked me what specialty I was going in to (I was shocked he remembered me, but apparently, he remembers all his students). I told him I was going into peds and in true form, he was like, "well, I knew you were an f-ing idiot, but I thought even you were too smart for peds..." I think that was the closest thing I ever got to a compliment from him....

Did you ever say anything about it to the administration? If attendings regularly abuse med students on core clerkships at my school they'll stop putting students on their service (and then soon enough you read "Dr. X has left to pursue other opportunities"). I suppose it depends on how much pull the school has with the hospital.

 

[DrDre311]

And even here, the hazing wasn't constant...it was just quite excessive when it was there. In fact, I saw the surgery attending I described above in the elevator the other month and he asked me what specialty I was going in to (I was shocked he remembered me, but apparently, he remembers all his students). I told him I was going into peds and in true form, he was like, "well, I knew you were an f-ing idiot, but I thought even you were too smart for peds..." I think that was the closest thing I ever got to a compliment from him....

Sorry to derail the thread......

I got similar reactions from my GS and medicine attendings when they found out I was doing plastics. Only instead of accusing me of being dumb they accused me of being a sellout.

I just grinned.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

Did you ever say anything about it to the administration? If attendings regularly abuse med students on core clerkships at my school they'll stop putting students on their service (and then soon enough you read "Dr. X has left to pursue other opportunities"). I suppose it depends on how much pull the school has with the hospital.

Yea, sort of....I mean, I let him have it on a lot of parts of my evaluation. I definitely made the clerkship director and dean aware of the story I told above, but they said they've heard it before. I don't tihnk much will change in the future, just because this guy has been there forever and actually claims to enjoy teaching. (Which may be true...I jut think he defines 'teaching' a little differently than most others!)

 

[kate0834tkjn]

I got similar reactions from my GS and medicine attendings when they found out I was doing plastics. Only instead of accusing me of being dumb they accused me of being a sellout.

I just grinned.

Haha, I grinned too! Then walked out of the elevator on the peds floor and didn't look back!

 

[kate0834tkjn]

Out of curiousity, are you going into surgery? It's amazing someone could stomach all that without ultimately wanting to go into surgery!

Not sure if you were asking me or not, but I'm planning on going into peds. I originally wanted to do IM or FP, but when I did surgery, despite the mean attendings, I really liked it. But, at the end of the day, I can't handle the attitudes.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Where I work, the students love their attending surgeons, and we don't have a surgery residency (although its only a matter of time), so there is only one person to chew you out.

We have two surgeons, Harshaw and Ross, who can be grumpy old men. On the other hand, they have been doing this for a long time, and they are complete badasses. I'm not sure what goes on with these guys and their students in the OR or behind the scenes, but everyone seems to get along.

I think my hospital is unusual though.

 

[vtucci]

Wow I am sorry that so many of you had such malignant environments. I loved my general surgery and trauma surgery teams. Gyn surgery was another story mind you but that was only 2 weeks and I survived.

I felt that without exception, the attendings seemed to love being asked questions and felt that that showed interest by the student. There was definitely none of that don't speak unless spoken to rule at my program. Naturally, students need to pick the right time to ask questions. If there is a problem with the surgery or patient on the floor, then might not be the most opportune time to ask but other than that. Our trauma attending had some of the best clinical teaching that I had all 3rd year.

As for reading before the clerkship starts, Lawrence is worthwhile. I also liked Surgical Secrets and Surgery Recall. I would particularly recommend fluids and electrolytes chapters for those of you who have not had medicine yet.