Being criticized the whole time during an interview for wearing expensive accessory ($2600 watch)?

[LizzyM]

And I asked where does he say that he's poor.




What? Since when does saying that one's family is not wealthy translate into his family being "poor"?

I didn't come from a wealthy family. I came from a middle class family. But I guess you'd say I came from a poor family if I said that my family isn't wealthy??? What?

"My parents are first generation immigrants and I am a first generation college graduate in my family, .... In addition, a lot about this and my background was mentioned through my essays and overall application, and I even mentioned it during the interview, ..."

The common perception is that "first generation college graduate" is a way of identifying families that are lower SES. This is not always true but it is a perception. Now there are factory workers making $55-62K year in Massachusetts with no more than a HS diploma and a receptionist can be making $36K to put a family's income at ~$90K/yr. That's not "poor" but it if substantially below the families we see where both parents are MDs, JDs, or have big corporate/tech jobs. But if he was trying to give the perception of being "poor" as a hook and then shows up with a pen that costs 800 times the cost of a basic pen, there is a bit of a perception problem that an interviewer might silently note, or might have a question about, so as to not make assumptions.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

I feel the same way about cars. Why spend $80,000 (or more) on a Mercedes or BMW when you can have a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry for less than half that, and the expensive German cars only "perform negligibly better." But, not everyone drives a Honda Accord.

I like fancy pens, and of course I have a Montblanc Meisterstuck 149 ("Diplomat") fountain pen, pictured below. The first one I got was a law school graduation gift from my dad. It is just a gorgeous piece of gear, and sometimes I wear it in my breast pocket even if I don't care to write with it. Fact is, I have no business with fountain pens, being left-handed, but I like them anyway. I just like them.
View attachment 225540

Because not everyone believes a car is just taking you from point A to B. Sit in an M5 and you'll know what I'm talking about

 

[PreMedMissteps]

The 'common perception is that "first generation college graduate" is a way of identifying families that are lower SES. This is not always true but it is a perception

I agree that a common perception is that "first generation" suggests low income. Just as "single mom" suggests the same. However, both do not always equate to that. There are middle-class and affluent first gen immigrant families and there are middle-class and affluent single moms. Imagine the med school applicant putting that he's a child of a single mom, but mom is a highly paid surgeon and the kid shows up in designer duds to the interview. I think that's the sort of disconnect that happened here.

Similarly we see this when high school students use the phrase, "first generation to go to college," which can suggest low income but can really mean anything from the child of a day laborer to the child of the owner of a high income construction or plumbing company who lives in a custom built home.

 

[jazzmetal]

"My parents are first generation immigrants and I am a first generation college graduate in my family, .... In addition, a lot about this and my background was mentioned through my essays and overall application, and I even mentioned it during the interview, ...".

I was just about to post that same excerpt.
One thing that gets me is how fast some people jump from observation ("This applicant is wearing an expensive watch") to conclusion ("This applicant is trying to flaunt his wealth"). I mean, isn't that the definition of non-scientific? If the interviewer wanted to point out how the applicant might be perceived by patients - sure, fine, good point and thank you. But why instantly assume you know what's going on in someone else's mind? Plus just picture this kid's parents reading about this whole episode. Makes me hope that none of it's true.

 

[Terry Toma]

Wait, does this mean I shouldn't drive my Porsche to the interview?
Just kidding. I don't have any interviews.

I had to borrow a car to get to my most recent interview. A family member's BMW convertible ended up being the only vehicle available to me. I'm not gonna complain about someone loaning me a BMW, but I was a bit worried about how it might be perceived. Definitely rolled in early with the top up and exited the car while no other people were immediately visible in the parking lot. The irony is that I was only driving the BMW because I'm too poor to have a car of my own.

 

[DBC03]

I am quite fond of my uniballs.

You can pry my uniballs out of my cold, dead hands...


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

 

[jazzmetal]

the phrase, "first generation to go to college," which can suggest low income

Interesting, I think of it more as someone breaking new ground, whether or not they came from money. Conveys (to me) a sense of self, vs. someone (like me) just following in their parents' footsteps. My dad's parents ran their own business and lived comfortably, but neither went to college. Not sure my grandfather even went to high school. But my dad was one of those people who knew from a young age exactly what he wanted to do and ended up with a college scholarship and a very satisfying career. I wish I'd been more like him in that respect. Haha, maybe I'd already be a doctor, instead of an "ultra" nontrad applicant!

 

[jazzmetal]

I had to borrow a car to get to my most recent interview. A family member's BMW convertible ended up being the only vehicle available to me. I'm not gonna complain about someone loaning me a BMW, but I was a bit worried about how it might be perceived. Definitely rolled in early with the top up and exited the car while no other people were immediately visible in the parking lot. The irony is that I was only driving the BMW because I'm too poor to have a car of my own.

I love it! Don't worry, if you interview in the Bay Area, I'll let you drive my other Porsche.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Interesting, I think of it more as someone breaking new ground, whether or not they came from money. Conveys (to me) a sense of self, vs. someone (like me) just following in their parents' footsteps. My dad's parents ran their own business and lived comfortably, but neither went to college. Not sure my grandfather even went to high school. But my dad was one of those people who knew from a young age exactly what he wanted to do and ended up with a college scholarship and a very satisfying career. I wish I'd been more like him in that respect. Haha, maybe I'd already be a doctor, instead of an "ultra" nontrad applicant!

Some may be misusing these natural assumptions to get advantages. That may have been what the interviewer was getting at. If the applicant's story was full of struggle, coming to a new country, not knowing the language, etc, but didn't include that the family had succeeded in the US and likely had an income where large discretionary expenses like $3k of flashy grad gifts could be affordable, then the interviewer was understandably annoyed.

 

[jazzmetal]

Some may be misusing these natural assumptions to get advantages. That may have been what the interviewer was getting at. If the applicant's story was full of struggle, coming to a new country, not knowing the language, etc, but didn't include that the family had succeeded in the US and likely had an income where large discretionary expenses like $3k of flashy grad gifts could be affordable, then the interviewer was understandably annoyed.

Yeah, maybe. I guess that takes me back to being impressed that he could even pinpoint that watch. I would have had *no* clue.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree that a common perception is that "first generation" suggests low income. Just as "single mom" suggests the same. However, both do not always equate to that. There are middle-class and affluent first gen immigrant families and there are middle-class and affluent single moms. Imagine the med school applicant putting that he's a child of a single mom, but mom is a highly paid surgeon and the kid shows up in designer duds to the interview. I think that's the sort of disconnect that happened here.

Similarly we see this when high school students use the phrase, "first generation to go to college," which can suggest low income but can really mean anything from the child of a day laborer to the child of the owner of a high income construction or plumbing company who lives in a custom built home.

Agreed. My dad was the first to go to college in our family, but he went when he was in his thirties. Before he went, we definitely would not have been considered poor. He made plenty of money as a police officer, and my stepmom was a construction foreman. On my mom’s side, neither of them went to college, but my mom was a legal assistant, and my stepdad owned a body shop. Again, far from poor.

First generation college student doesn’t always mean lower SES. It just gets that association, so I can see why the interviewer could have been thrown off. Still doesn’t excuse his behavior (if it’s real).

 

[Kurk]

Interviewer was out of line. Way to set an example with not controlling their emotions.

 

[Raryn]

Would you wear that watch and use that pen in clinic? Then don't bring them to the interview. With the exception of the suit jacket, what you wear at the interview, I think, should correspond to what you would wear with your white coat in a clinical (outpatient) setting. Nothing flashy, nothing too precious or high fashion.

This is a strange statement, in that lots of people would wear that watch (or one even more expensive) in clinic. I know I'm one of them.

There's not so many accessories a man wears, and many people appreciate a decent watch. When I graduated residency, my parents got me one that retails for ~$5000 (roughly double the OP's), and I've worn it in clinic every day for the last year and a half. Probably two patients and a couple staff members have commented on it that it looks nice. I also primarily see Medicaid patients and there has never been an issue with it.

I know I'm not alone in wearing a decent accessory to work. I have no clue how much most of my peers or attending's watches are worth (I'm not THAT much of a horophile), but I can easily see the jewelry. Even ignoring the faculty, I see plenty of residents (including my own wife) who wear engagement rings easily worth 5 figures and none of them have ever had an issue with it.

If the same watch had been my high school rather than residency graduation present, I probably would have worn it to all my med school interviews as well. I don't see a reasonable negative here, because in my opinion at least, it is something that isn't the least bit ostentatious. Wearing a diamond covered rolex? Probably too much. But a nice mechanical watch? I don't get it. The only people that typically recognize a Tag or Breitling are people who usually appreciate this sort of thing.

That said, I certainly wouldn't use a $400 pen in clinic, mostly because I tend to lose at least a pen a week. I agree with the thought that this may be the OP's downfall.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

I don't think anyone here is critical of a doctor who dresses well (or drives a nicer car). It's one of the perks of the income. As far as wearing CL shoes, unless someone is familiar with the red sole, many wouldn't know whether those were expensive or picked off the clearance rack at Kohl's.

The interviewer seemed to be concerned with the disconnect between the (presumed hint of the) modest income of an immigrant and pricey accessories. Perhaps this applicant had been granted an interview because the adcoms were looking to enroll more lower SES students, and this applicant didn't turn out like they thought. And, let's get real, if "dad" insisted on his son wearing these items, then very likely the applicant was wearing a higher-end well-tailored suit as well. I doubt this was a lipstick on a pig situation.

We also don't know if this student was being interviewed by a state med. If so, then accepting a blinged-out applicant may not gel well with its goal of accepting more future primary care doctors who'll work in the trenches.

 

[DokterMom]

If I saw an applicant with a nice watch I would compliment them. I have no right to speculate on their family situation, or what they value personally (for example in my ethnic background, it is common to have a tiny apartment and little food in your house but drive a Benz because your outward social appearance matters). This interviewer was pretentious and holier-than-thou.

My culture of origin is the exact opposite. Drive the 'so old it's almost vintage' beater car to lunch at the club, but live in the best neighborhood and go to the very best schools. The disapproving looks I got when I bought my first Mercedes were so embarrassing! Drove it for 15 years, so "ok" in the end

 

[Kurk]

The people who actually know how cheaply built Mercedes and other luxury brands have become in past couple years get the last laugh. Their only selling point is the 3 pointed star now.

 

[DoctorCrush]

Poor guy. I was lucky, my interviewer and I spent like 15 mins talking about the shoes I was wearing and sushi!

 

[DoctorCrush]

Completely agree. Dressing well doesn't mean you have to look like Lil Jon and be covered in bling. If I'm not in scrubs, I wear armani suits and louboutins to clinic, it makes me feel good as a woman and it looks good on me. Many of my colleagues dress nicely as well. I also work with all types of patients in terms of economic background, and no one ever had an issue and often I get compliments (oh you look so nice out of scrubs, Doctor--although I admit that most of them see me in scrubs first in the hospital, and maybe that makes the transition easier since they know I'm "in the trenches").

If I saw an applicant with a nice watch I would compliment them. I have no right to speculate on their family situation, or what they value personally (for example in my ethnic background, it is common to have a tiny apartment and little food in your house but drive a Benz because your outward social appearance matters). This interviewer was pretentious and holier-than-thou.
However...yes, maybe the pen broke the camel's back. I think you're right and the pen is the issue.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Goals!!

 

[a_borgia]

I saw a patient wearing a 40k watch - everyone on my team noticed it was nice, but as a horophile I knew the dollar value. We discussed it afterwards as a relevant part of social history...

On an interview, definitely inappropriate to comment, even for FAP. What if the watch was a family heirloom from the old world? There are many reasons someone might have such a piece.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I still giggle at "horophile." ::immature:: reminds me of that scene in the last pirates movie where she tells them she is a horologist


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[lpp06]

Thought experiment: What is the general opinion on the perception of engagement rings within this context? The average engagement ring is around 4k-5k, so comparable to a very expensive watch.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Thought experiment: What is the general opinion on the perception of engagement rings within this context? The average engagement ring is around 4k-5k, so comparable to a very expensive watch.

Well. This might be a little much.

 

[VincentAdultman]

horophile

FAP

I am so immature.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I am so immature.

I always associate that word with someone who is obsessed with horror movies lol.

 

[DBC03]

Thought experiment: What is the general opinion on the perception of engagement rings within this context? The average engagement ring is around 4k-5k, so comparable to a very expensive watch.

There’re actually a few posts about this in one of the female interview attire threads. I think the consensus was that it might be a good idea to leave any large diamond rings or ostentatious jewelry at home. I have a 1/2 carat and platinum engagement ring that is nondescript (and most people can’t tell platinum and white gold apart, so it’s a non-issue. We paid very little for it because of a going out of business sale, so I could definitely comment on the cost if necessary). I’ve been wearing it to my interviews and I haven’t heard any remarks, yet!


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

 

[Raryn]

Thought experiment: What is the general opinion on the perception of engagement rings within this context? The average engagement ring is around 4k-5k, so comparable to a very expensive watch.

My wife's engagement ring was roughly double that (we decided to go for it, knowing that we wanted something for the long term rather than a potential "upgrade" 10 or 20 years in) and no one commented anything negative on it during residency interviews. She wears it to work/clinic routinely without any negatives other than having to take it off (and put it on a necklace she wears for that specific reason) when she needs to glove up for a procedure.

I've seen other residents with rings worth in the same range (~1.5ct with a decent quality setting is around 10 grand and that's not *that* atypical for the residents I see) also without issues.

 

[DokterMom]

My wife's engagement ring was roughly double that (we decided to go for it, knowing that we wanted something for the long term rather than a potential "upgrade" 10 or 20 years in) and no one commented anything negative on it during residency interviews. She wears it to work/clinic routinely without any negatives other than having to take it off (and put it on a necklace she wears for that specific reason) when she needs to glove up for a procedure.

I've seen other residents with rings worth in the same range (~1.5ct with a decent quality setting is around 10 grand and that's not *that* atypical for the residents I see) also without issues.

I think for residency interviews it would be a somewhat different ballgame. I mean, at that point, a woman has clearly already demonstrated her commitment to medicine by making it through medical school. Stopping mid-residency for "I don't really need to work" reasons would be so, so ridiculous. Also, at that point, being engaged to another physician/dentist/lawyer/investment banker would not be at all unusual -- so no real taint of "gold-digger" like there might be at age 22...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think for residency interviews it would be a somewhat different ballgame. I mean, at that point, a woman has clearly already demonstrated her commitment to medicine by making it through medical school. Stopping mid-residency for "I don't really need to work" reasons would be so, so ridiculous. Also, at that point, being engaged to another physician/dentist/lawyer/investment banker would not be at all unusual -- so no real taint of "gold-digger" like there might be at age 22...

Here too, I think it’s a bit hypocritical to assume that a big ring means you’re a gold digger or flaunting wealth. My wife’s ring is worth a good amount of money. It would have taken me quite a while to save for it on a military salary, but I only spent $300 on the setting, since the rock itself has been in my family for a really long time.

I get it—a big ring on a young woman carries a certain image, but aren’t we supposed to be above jumping to conclusions?

 

[DokterMom]

Here too, I think it’s a bit hypocritical to assume that a big ring means you’re a gold digger or flaunting wealth. My wife’s ring is worth a good amount of money. It would have taken me quite a while to save for it on a military salary, but I only spent $300 on the setting, since the rock itself has been in my family for a really long time.

I get it—a big ring on a young woman carries a certain image, but aren’t we supposed to be above jumping to conclusions?

Yeah, we're supposed to be. But as the original post illustrates, not all people are.

In the massive 'weed out' process that is medical school admissions, it's smart to minimize the number of reasons you provide to weed you out.

For residency interviews, it's not so much about 'weed out' (which happens pre-interview more than post) as about 'fit'. For residency interviews, it's better to be who you genuinely are ('fit') than to be as inoffensive as possible.

 

[BombsAway]

Yeah, we're supposed to be. But as the original post illustrates, not all people are.

In the massive 'weed out' process that is medical school admissions, it's smart to minimize the number of reasons you provide to weed you out.

For residency interviews, it's not so much about 'weed out' (which happens pre-interview more than post) as about 'fit'. For residency interviews, it's better to be who you genuinely are ('fit') than to be as inoffensive as possible.

So true. Only reason I drag a razor across my face before every interview. Ruining my glorious ski season beard opportunity.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, we're supposed to be. But as the original post illustrates, not all people are.

In the massive 'weed out' process that is medical school admissions, it's smart to minimize the number of reasons you provide to weed you out.

For residency interviews, it's not so much about 'weed out' (which happens pre-interview more than post) as about 'fit'. For residency interviews, it's better to be who you genuinely are ('fit') than to be as inoffensive as possible.

Yeah, I just think it’s unfortunate. A person shouldn’t have to take off a family heirloom because someone might see it and leap to the conclusion that she’s a gold digger without even so much as asking about it.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Thought experiment: What is the general opinion on the perception of engagement rings within this context? The average engagement ring is around 4k-5k, so comparable to a very expensive watch.

I don't think wedding sets are held to the same standard. A $4k-5k wedding set is not unusual and not off-putting.

That said, I have a friend who sells major appliances. She does not wear her 3 carat center stone diamond ring to work. She fears that it might send the message that the products are over-priced and paying for her jewelry. She wears a simple band to work. In her mind, why take any unnecessary risks.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

So true. Only reason I drag a razor across my face before every interview. Ruining my glorious ski season beard opportunity.

Dude...Being Movember, I WISH I could grow a beard. So envious...

 

[BombsAway]

Dude...Being Movember, I WISH I could grow a beard. So envious...

moustache=/=beard.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

moustache=/=beard.

We are doing a Movember for our class leader who has had some family members with prostate cancer. As much as I support it, I cannot wait to shave this thing. A mustache without the beard feels so wrong.

 

[CDT13]

I think it’s hillarious that the interviewer thought a $2,600 watch was expensive. That doesn’t really move the needle in the watch world. I personally have several that cost more than that and wouldn’t hesitate to wear them to an interview. People shouldn’t be attacked because they have nice things. This to me is just an insecure person.