Best Chicago Reputation

[waterski232002]

Okay... there have been a few people asking for opinions about the chicago programs and nobody in here ever seems to respond. Where are all the chicago people??? Please drop us a line to give us some advice.. Pro's/Con's of programs. This poll is NOT to start a mudfight, just to give people a reason to post their points of views (since they obviously will not do it on their own). Any information helps...

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[Sheerstress]

Here are some old threads that might help you:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=89013

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/sho...&threadid=57627

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/sho...&threadid=70869

 

[Syd Barrett]

Hi everyone:

Wow, we're gettin' killed by U of C!!! WTF? Boy, I bet David Howes is proud as punch......

C'mon everyone....show some love for the Christ peeps down here on the souf side!

In all seriousness, I'm just familiarizing myself with this site. I'm a PGY-2 in EM at Christ. I'm copying my post from another recent thread on Chicago programs. Please feel free to PM me with questions. Best of luck and go Bulls!

-------------------------------------------------------
I am currently a PGY-2 EM resident at Christ in Chicago and I am new to these forums. I am very familiar with all of the EM programs in Chicago - I have lived in the area for 5.5 years (I went to medical school in the city), I rotated in the ED's at Cook County and Resurrection, I rotated at the Illinois Poison Center (run by CCH and UIC), and I interviewed at all six programs.

I concur with the information in the old thread that Dr. Evil attached to his response.

I will try to be as unbiased as possible. All six programs are excellent and very benign. It's been said so many times, but EM is not about rankings and hierarchy - it's about finding a fit. Christ simply was and is the best fit for me.

(1) Christ - far and away, my first choice. I have been tremendously happy here and I sincerely believe that my fellow residents are very pleased as well, both with their training and their quality of life. You had specifically asked about reputation - all I can say is that when I was applying, EM physicians told me that Christ was the best in the city. When I ask around now, I still get the same answer. Why? First, we have a county-size volume (81,000+ visits including 22,000+ peds visits with phenomenal socioeconomic and ethnic diversity) with the perks of being at a community hospital (good ancillary staff, good resources, friendly atmosphere). Christ is now the largest private hospital in Illinois based on admissions (38,881 in 2003). We are one of 4 Level I trauma centers that take Chicago-city trauma (3,000+ level I visits last year). We have one of the oldest EM programs in the city and EM is the oldest program at the hospital (UIC residents in Surgery, OBGYN, Ortho, and many other specialties do up to half of their rotations at Christ). We have one of the oldest ultrasound fellowships in the country, we have 6 ARDMS certified ED attendings (and MANY other attendings who are experienced and use US frequently), we have 3 Peds EM fellowship-trained attendings, and 2 Toxicologists on staff. Our schedule is very benign (18 ten hour shifts per 28 days) and our off-service rotations are very manageable and they include some cool services such as oral surgery, hand surgery, ortho, and we do a dedicated ultrasound rotation. We are able to moonlight starting our intern year (which helps tremendously with autonomy and $$$$ with some residents doubling their salary) in our 8-bed cardiac obs unit - we run the unit by ourselves but we have an attending in the main room who we staff the cases with. The biggest selling point is the extraordinary cameraderie between residents, attendings, and ancillary staff (being a one hospital program enhances this). The only negatives: most of the residents live downtown and the commute to Oak Lawn can be long (30-45 minutes but all of the EM programs in Chicago require SOME long commute times given where all of these hospitals are located) and we have no flight program. Please PM me if you have ANY questions about EM at Christ.

(2) UIC - three hospital system including UIC (tertiary center), Mercy (indigent population), and Illinois Masonic (yuppies, large spanish-speaking pop.). Great academic reputation including many leaders in EM. Phenomenally approachable program director. In addition to their three main hospitals, they also rotate at Christ (trauma, ortho, and PICU). Residents are very happy and they tend to be very gregarious (exemplified on Interview Day). I met several program directors on the interview trail who had trained at UIC (PD's at MCW, Resurrection, UIC, and others).

(3) U of Chicago - I believe U of C is in fact the oldest program in the city (with Christ being#2). Very good academic reputation with many well-funded research projects. Many of their months are at Lutheran General, which draws a very wealthy population. They also rotate at Mount Sinai which draws more of a county population (mostly spanish speaking). It was my impression that they just do a few months of ED and Trauma at Sinai. Their residents tend to be very well-rounded with many diverse interests. Their PD is very unique and eclectic. He rubbed many people the wrong way when I applied but I liked him, and I am told that he is an enormous resident advocate once you become part of the U of C family. As mentioned on the other thread, huge flight emphasis - can be both good and bad.

(4) Resurrection - 3 year program. Very benign. Residents are very happy and they receive many perks at the hospital (unlimited hospital food). I am told that their previous PD was unpleasant, but she is being replaced this year (by whom? I don't know). They primarily rotate at two ED's, both are somewhat low volume. Resurrection (wealthy, very elderly) is at 36,000 and I believe that St. Francis is about the same (also suburban, but indigent, providing a nice complement to the Res pop.). Attendings are super cool, and very laid back. As mentioned before, they didn't fill a few years back - that was more due to an administrative snafu, not due to lack of interest.

(5) Northwestern - Great faculty. They really do seem to be an up and coming program. Four years, and the curriculum includes some heavy off-service months (9 ICU months). In talking to Medicine and Surgery residents there, their reputation is gaining ground within the institution but they still have a ways to go.

(6) Cook County - Enormous county volume. Their new program director (Steve Bowman took over in 2003) is phenomenal - you'll never meet a more cool, laid back, approachable guy. Their last program director was somewhat malignant, and frankly, she made the residents miserable a few years back. Cook County HAD a malignant reputation at the time I was applying, but I think this is changing. I rotated there - the residents didn't seem like the happiest bunch, but again, I think this is improving (they moved into the new Stroger's Hospital shortly after I rotated and it's beautiful). They have some FANTASTIC teaching faculty....and they have some difficult personalities as well. While I saw some bizarre things on my rotation (tertiary syphilis, malaria), I felt like the acuity was missing. They have a large amount of non-clinical requirements (presentations, papers) and they obviously require a pre-lim year - these were just a few of the reasons why I ultimately ranked them lower on my list. It's interesting - Cook has a tremendous NATIONAL reputation.....but for those of us in the city,we see things differently.

So there you have it. If I can answer questions about ANY of the programs (especially Christ, 'cause I know that one the best), please PM me. Best of luck to everyone and I hope you guys rank Chicago highly!

Syd Barrett
PGY-2 Emergency Medicine Resident
Advocate Christ Medical Center
Oak Lawn, IL

 

[waterski232002]

Thanks Syd... Any other opinions would still be helpful....

 

[KungPOWChicken]

Cook county has way too much primary care!!!

 

[waterski232002]

Cook county has way too much primary care!!!

Can you back that up.... How do you know this? Are you a resident, med student, rotator? What was your experience which caused you to believe this, and what programs are you comparing it to?

 

[KungPOWChicken]

I rotated there. And I've never seen so many people come in for med. refills or a freakin' sandwich with some bull**** complaint. I don't have statistics for you, but think about it, any free hospital with hundreds of patients sitting hours in the ER is going to have tons of primary care. Don't go to cook county unless you like primary care. Or if you don't believe me go visit their waiting room.

 

[joaquin13]

i think any county hospital will have tons of primary care. that doesn't necessarily mean it is bad!! for every bull**** complaint, there is one case of crazy pathology, a bad trauma, and patients that are genuinely happy to have received medical care at all.

 

[Sheerstress]

freakin' sandwich with some bull**** complaint

When I rotated there as a medical student, there were always people hanging either around the ED or around the room down the hall with the vending machines (the old Cook County building didn't have a cafeteria, just the room with the machines). I got plenty of requests to get them a sandwich (there was a small stash kept in the ED for patients) or to buy them a drink from one of the machines. Apparently they thought I already had mucho $$ to burn. It doesn't seem that they've gone away with the new hospital. 🙄

Seriously, when I was there, CC was the only ED that I knew of that actually gave patients hot meal trays if they had been there for a long time. The faculty and residents were for the most pretty cool about food in the ED except for the one or two days a month that Dr. Simon was in the department - ANY staff caught with food or drink on his watch would get suspended!

 

[NinerNiner999]

County hospital is a pretty rough place. They do a lot of thoracotomies, many chest tubes, and their code teams always seem to be doing something. they had an excellent pediatrician there - I think his name was Dr. Ross, but he eventually moved to Washington state for a more cush lifestyle. He was really cool and quite the ladies man. I didn't know Carrie Weaver stepped down as PD but I know she is very active in the administration there. They had a vascular surgeon running the ED for a while but he lost his arm in a horrible helicopter accident and was eventually killed by a falling helicopter (they also have a very busy Air EMS system, and students have been known to intubate on the Helipad).

They have a strong international EM department as well. Two of their attendings, one from Croatia and the other from the wealthy suburbs of Chicago have been to Uganda in the Congo and almost lost their lives - you should talk about it if you interview there. They also just beefed up security and have a really cool see-through patient board that slides into the ceiling. I don't know about the ancillary staff, though. I always just see the same people walking around in the back. They never talk or do anything - they just kind of walk around. Gang violence, oxygen explosions - even a small pox outbreak! This place really has it all. I would rank this at the top of my list for the best in Chicago - without a question.

 

[waterski232002]

County hospital is a pretty rough place. They do a lot of thoracotomies, many chest tubes, and their code teams always seem to be doing something. they had an excellent pediatrician there - I think his name was Dr. Ross, but he eventually moved to Washington state for a more cush lifestyle. He was really cool and quite the ladies man. I didn't know Carrie Weaver stepped down as PD but I know she is very active in the administration there. They had a vascular surgeon running the ED for a while but he lost his arm in a horrible helicopter accident and was eventually killed by a falling helicopter (they also have a very busy Air EMS system, and students have been known to intubate on the Helipad).

They have a strong international EM department as well. Two of their attendings, one from Croatia and the other from the wealthy suburbs of Chicago have been to Uganda in the Congo and almost lost their lives - you should talk about it if you interview there. They also just beefed up security and have a really cool see-through patient board that slides into the ceiling. I don't know about the ancillary staff, though. I always just see the same people walking around in the back. They never talk or do anything - they just kind of walk around. Gang violence, oxygen explosions - even a small pox outbreak! This place really has it all. I would rank this at the top of my list for the best in Chicago - without a question.

Don't forget about that time the Tank ran into Emergency Department.... scary stuff!

 

[paisley05]

If this poll is based solely on reputation, I would say that in the Chicago area, Christ has the best reputation. I interivewed everywhere in Chicago except Cook County and the majority of them actually said that their program and Christ were the best two in the city. So, Christ gets a lot of respect from the other Chi-town programs. I don't know if Christ is as well-recognized as some of the others like U of C and Cook on a national level though. There's my two cents.

 

[NinerNiner999]

In all seriousness I would think that Christ is probably more recognized for its easy lifestyle compared to the other Chicago programs (which would explain the interview comparisons and make it a LOCAL favorite. The previous poster was probably correct in suggesting that Cook County and U of C are more nationally known. I could be wrong though.

Oh - and the tank was some pretty scary stuff.

 

[Syd Barrett]

NinerNiner99 - wow, we're known for our easy lifestyle? Not sure that I agree with that. Here's how I see it.

In the ED - it's not easy. It's high acuity, high volume - 82,000+ per year. Unlike many county programs with similar volume who have 18 residents per year, we have 11 per year, almost no outside rotators, no PA's, etc. We see 15-25 patients per 10 hour shift (right now, I average 19). We do have a Fast Track only run by attendings from 1p - 11p which knocks out about 25 easy patients per day, so our acuity per shift has increased (we work even harder seeing slightly fewer patients). We are largely evaluated based on our speed and efficiency...we have IBEX - a computer system that intricately breaks down our productivity. We have an outstanding ancillary staff, which does make things easier.....but we work very hard. It's higher yield - I'm working hard doing what I want to be doing, but I'm pressured to see more patients. Our schedule is 18 10-hour shifts per 28 days. That's about average in Chicago and we have great attending coverage and phenomenal overlap amongst residents.

Out of the ED - I guess you could say that our lifestyle is easy. Everyone is very happy and the atmosphere is benign. Great ancillary staff on off-service definitely makes our life easier in every way, shape, and form. We have PA's on many of the services who do a lot of the dirty work (all that BS work involved in getting people pre-opped, discharged, etc.). Our program is the oldest in the hospital and the only one that is fully established at Christ (almost all of the other residents have UIC as their home-base) which gives us a lot of political power in tailoring our off-service rotations. We have the ability to prevent needless/low yield activities such as pre-rounding, night call (although on stuff like ICU, call is very important and high-yield), and other scut. At many institutions, the boss man says, "hey, ER guys, we need some more labor on OB so giddyup". At Christ, if we believe a rotation has gotten s***ty or we're not being taught, we just say "bye-bye."

Bottomline - I think some people hear "community hospital" and they think "easy" - I personally think many of these hospitals offer the best EM experiences - an overall benign atmosphere with a high volume, high acuity ED volume and minimal friction from other services. (other examples include Carolinas, Christiana, Beaumont, Henry Ford - yes, it is in fact a community hospital supported by the Ford foundation).

Cook County - you know, Cook does get props nationally, but I think that people who know Chicago programs well (these people include EM directors nationally in both academics and community) see things very differently. If you're interested in Cook, try to talk to someone who rotated there (a lot of people have....14 per month). Having rotated there, I was simply not impressed. Again, it's all about finding a fit. Joaquin states, "for every bull**** complaint, there is one case of crazy pathology, a bad trauma, and patients that are genuinely happy to have received medical care at all." I do agree that the patients are amazingly appreciative of the care they get, but the ratio of bull**** to cool stuff (especially sick/unstable people) is literally 10:1. I think that many people have a very idealized view of the acuity within a county ED. I was one of those people. I thought that I would train in the trenches and I would be the biggest bad*ss. I rotated at Cook, and then I ran the other direction. Christ (and Resurrection, Lutheran General, probably Mercy and Masonic, and many others) have a higher percentage of SICK patients - PE, Dissections, Bleeds, f-ed up arrhythmias. Another problem with Cook - stratified responsibility. PGY1 = prelim, 2 = subacute, fast track, asthma, sickle cell, 3 = resusc bay, 4 = pit boss. I met PGY3's who had done ~2 intubations entering the year. (WTF???) They have a few PHENOMENAL faculty members - they don't work much in the ED - lots of administration. The ancillary staff makes things very frustrating....not bad for one month as a student.....but as a resident, c'mon. They have a few of the best EM residents I have EVER seen.....but with 18 per year, they end up with some who are very.....well, scary. Unfortunately, several residents left the program a few years ago - the old program director was reportedly miserable....the new one is outstanding. As for Trauma, it is a separate department. Our trauma volume at Christ is comparable to Cook and it is integrated within the main ED. While we have designated trauma months, we also help out on gangbang nights (when you get 8 at once, the whole staff becomes the trauma team).

I didn't rotate at U of C. I know quite a bit about it....but I'm getting tired.....maybe another time.

Best of luck guys! Congratulations for entering the best field in medicine!

Syd Barrett
PGY-2 Emergency Medicine
Advocate Christ Medical Center

 

[jkl]

Thanks for the info on Christ and Cook County, Syd! I would also love to hear your opinions about U of Chicago when you have time!

 

[pinbor1]

Syd, couldn't have said it better myself (especially since i'm half awake on call). I agree that Christ has a great reputation in Chicago and understandably so, though I am biased towards UIC. They have great pathology and see high acuity patients. Great ancillary staff, and a fun group of residents.

In my experience, a lot of the community hospitals due seem to have a higher amount of acuity, especially on the southside. I'm a UIC resident, and would have to agree that we tend to see a far higher acuity of patients at Mercy. These patients are sick when they come in, you have great autonomy with minimal consultants. I've treated more ICU players here than at UIH (the university hospital), at UIH we definitely have our share of "county patients that come in" When fast track is not running there, I agree that the BS to sick patient ratio can match 10:1. Masonic is similar to Christ, except for less volume and acuity, probably because there is no fast track there, so we see the sick with the BS.

In my personal experience, I would argue that UIC is one of the higher volume programs in the city when it comes to resident to patient coverage. Our total volume (when you add all 3 hospitals) is approximately 130,000 patients. We are single to double resident coverage in the ED, with comprable attending coverage. I would say that I average 1.5-2.5 patients per hour, it tends to be variable. At UIH it is more along 1.5, Mercy 2.0, and Masonic 2.5pts/hr.

I chose UIC mainly for gut feel, but also because it allows me to be at a University Program, while getting outstanding/practical real world training at multiple community hospitals. I figure that I will be well prepared to practice academic medicine if I choose, or to practice community medicine. We have a great national network of alumni, with a number of them being PD's at other residencies. i.e. MCOW, Regions, Resurrection, Univ of Washingon, not to mention a good number of fellowship directors, notably John Hopkins international EM fellowship director.

nuff said, I'm going to bed... hopefully

 

[hello23]

I was not impressed at all with Cook County, and its faculty (the one who interviewed me) and especially the PD. First of all, you are only allowed to handle trauma for 3 months (out of a total of 3 years) only when you are in trauma rotation...otherwise, you don't touch trauma at all. Then why would you go to Cook for the stuff that is most well-known of but now it's not available anymore? Secondly, the word on the street is that either the PD or the chair is leaving the position very very soon. Third, I have seen much better run county program in the country...I am sure anyone can immediately name at least 2 or 3.

 

[waterski232002]

I was not impressed at all with Cook County, and its faculty (the one who interviewed me) and especially the PD. First of all, you are only allowed to handle trauma for 3 months (out of a total of 3 years) only when you are in trauma rotation...otherwise, you don't touch trauma at all. Then why would you go to Cook for the stuff that is most well-known of but now it's not available anymore? Secondly, the word on the street is that either the PD or the chair is leaving the position very very soon. Third, I have seen much better run county program in the country...I am sure anyone can immediately name at least 2 or 3.

The fact that Trauma is triaged through it's own department and that EM only rotates through there is NOT a new concept over there. It is also run like this at UMD Shock/Trauma as well. At Cook County it has been run like this for a very long time (70's I think), and that's why Cook is known for it. They pioneered the system of a separate Trauma ED with a conjoined ICU and a dedicated "Trauma Team". Historically, they have also had some of the highest trauma volumes in the country.

They have never been known for having EM residents run all the traumas themselves, do 12 cric's in a shift, repair AAA's in the ED, and straddle stretchers to do CPR en route to the OR. If you went to the interview only having known Cook County as it is portrayed in the TV show, then maybe that's why you had a skewed opinion of what their "reputation" was and what is "available" to the EM residents.

You are correct that the chair of EM will be stepping down very soon. He is very well known and nationally respected. Although he will no longer be chair of EM, he is not leaving Cook County. I believe he is merely stepping down as chair in order to take over new administrative responsibilities and pursue other EM endeavors. When I spoke with him, he stated that he would remain on faculty.

 

[placebo_B12]

Too bad you can not vote for multiple programs. I would vote a tie between Christ and Cook County. Christ has a fabulous reputation and the attendings are extremely nice. Cook has possibly the best pathology in the country and you actually learn "hands on" by doing. I can not stand waiting around for others to do the work that I went into emergency medicine to do. Community or county is the way to go!!!

Did a rotation at UofC also and was miserable. Attendings were not friendly and the off services gave everyone in the ED a very hard time. Not impressed, especially since there is no adult trauma.

 

[grouptherapy]

from May-June 2004 ICEP
where 2004 graduates will be practicing

UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT CHICAGO
Rush, Chicago, IL
MetroHealth, Cleveland, OH
Lake Forest Hospital, Lake Forest, IL
MacNeal Hospital, Berwyn, IL
Edward Hospital, Naperville, IL
St. Anthony's/UIC, Chicago, IL
(2) St. Anthony's Hospital Chicago, IL
Johns Hopkins, Baltimore, MD
UCSF, San Francisco, CA
St. Elizabeth/St. Mary's, Chicago, IL

UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
Lutheran Gen Hosp, Park Ridge, IL
Rockford Health, Rockford, IL
St. Joseph Health, St. Charles, MO
University of Chicago, Chicago, IL
Morningstar Emergency Physicians, OKC, OK
Medstar Health, Baltimore, MD
Weiss Mem Hosp, Chicago, IL
Methodist Hosp, Chicago, IL
UIC, Chicago, IL
U Chicago Hospitals, Chicago, IL
InPhyNet, Tampa FL
St. Marks Hosp, SLC, UT

RESURRECTION
Bethesda North Hosp, Cincinnati, OH
Loyola, Maywood, IL
Washington County Gen Hosp, Hagerstown, MD
Lake Forest Hosp, Lake Forest, IL
UIC, Chicago, IL
EM Ultrasound Fellowhip, RMC, Chicago, IL
St. Francis Hosp, Evanston, IL/Swedish American Hosp, Rockford, IL
Holy Family Medical Center, Des Plaines, IL
South Baldwin Regional, Foley ,AL
Fort Drum Army Base, Ft Drum, NY
Memorial Hermann/Ft Bend & Katy Hosp, Houston, TX