Best dental school? Harvard, UCSF, UCLA, UPenn

[hahadino2771]

I am planning to specialize after graduating from dental school. I got interviews from Harvard, UCSF, UCLA and UPenn. By the way, I got 25 on DAT and 4.0 GPA.

Where would you go if you wanna be an ortho or an OMFS and work in the east coast? Where do you think has very strong academics with comprehensive clinical programs?

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[Maygyver]

I see you trollin', but if you aren't, focus on dental school first. If you do well enough you can think about specializing. Seeing as it isn't December 1st, you aren't assured seats in those schools anyway.

 

[Pennywisdom]

Edit

 

[emu]

.

 

[minoh87]

why money shouldnt really be an issue if someone is willing to go through and do what he really wants to do. and i rarely see oral surgeons or orthos struggling.

 

[hahadino2771]

This is what I think:

Harvard - good chances of getting into specialties + decent clinical program + (it's Harvard. it's IVY)

UCLA - good chances of getting into specialties + excellent clinical program

UCSF - decent chances of getting into specialties + decent clinical program + excellent research opportunities

UPenn - decent chances of getting into specialties + good clinical program

What do you think about those schools? Do you guys think Harvard makes its students solely become researchers? Where would you go to?

 

[Jsizzle]

Honestly dude, ANY of those schools are excellent choices. They will all provide you with great opportunities to build a strong resume for specializing and if you're as stellar as you make it seem, there is no doubt you will do well at any of those schools.

Although you distinguish the schools by clinical experience, none of those programs are particularly known for their clinical programs. But i dont know how important that should be to you if you for sure know you want to specialize. And if you really cared about clinical experience that much you should consider applying to other schools like UoP or Creighton.

 

[rickblas]

I am planning to specialize after graduating from dental school. I got interviews from Harvard, UCSF, UCLA and UPenn. By the way, I got 25 on DAT and 4.0 GPA.

Where would you go if you wanna be an ortho or an OMFS and work in the east coast? Where do you think has very strong academics with comprehensive clinical programs?

If you're smart enough to have those stats you should be smart enough to know that there are much better places to ask/people to ask about this topic than a bunch of fellow predental applicants on a predent forum! .

How about at your interviews ask some students how the specialty rate, clinicals, and academics are and where students usually end up practicing? At my maryland interview i asked the "where do they practice" question and they told me most stay in maryland. I would believe the same would be said about the cali schools (stay in cali) and upenn/harvard.

 

[Maygyver]

If you're smart enough to have those stats you should be smart enough to know that there are much better places to ask/people to ask about this topic than a bunch of fellow predental applicants on a predent forum! .

How about at your interviews ask some students how the specialty rate, clinicals, and academics are and where students usually end up practicing? At my maryland interview i asked the "where do they practice" question and they told me most stay in maryland. I would believe the same would be said about the cali schools (stay in cali) and upenn/harvard.

 

[eringer]

This is what I think:

Harvard - good chances of getting into specialties + decent clinical program + (it's Harvard. it's IVY)

UCLA - good chances of getting into specialties + excellent clinical program

UCSF - decent chances of getting into specialties + decent clinical program + excellent research opportunities

UPenn - decent chances of getting into specialties + good clinical program

What do you think about those schools? Do you guys think Harvard makes its students solely become researchers? Where would you go to?

"chances of getting into specialties" is such an arbitrary characteristic. It really comes down to you...whether or not you think you can be competitive at a school. Specialists come from every school.

 

[Pennywisdom]

Most of us won't be able to answer your question. And that's what the interviews are for. When you go to those schools ask a lot of questions and figure out which school is right for you.

Congrats on your interviews and good luck!

 

[davidae85]

Just make sure to stay away from UCSF. It wont help you reach your ultimate goals as well the other 3 will.....


EDIT: since the above statement was too difficult for people to understand, I have gone ahead and spelled it out below:

i was being sarcastic since that thread's title seemed so pretentious IMO: "Best dental school?" .... who the heck asks thats.... All dental schools are great in their own way and so I found this thread absurd. i dont believe ranking dental school's in a generalized way.

I guess my cynicism was too dry. You guys should really stop reading into what everyone says.

 

[americanpierg]

I see you trollin', but if you aren't, focus on dental school first. If you do well enough you can think about specializing. Seeing as it isn't December 1st, you aren't assured seats in those schools anyway.

It's never, EVER, EVER too early to start thinking about specializing. That's like telling someone in highschool its too early to think about becoming a dentist and focus on college first. With at least an exam or two every week, motivation is your greatest asset in dental school. It's best to have an idea of what you want to do going in so you can start preparing as early as possible anyways. Start getting into research rotations, start building good connections so you can get into good externships later on, rack up those community service hours... its not one of those things that at the end of your third year you suddenly decide, oh hey i suddenly wanna specialize now...im gonna apply for OMFS.

Dental school is not as difficult as people make it out to be. If you came out of undergrad with a 4.0 and 25AA, you will come out near the top of your dental class. The material is not any harder than in undergrad, its just that it moves a little bit faster and you have more classes to juggle at the same time. It's not like you're suddenly making a jump from learning algebra straight to multivariable calculus... the material is all the same, it just comes at you faster.

Anyways, back to the original question, I'd go to harvard out of all of those... assuming you get in. All four are good at putting its students into specialties, but Harvard is hands down the best out of all four. It wont make you any better of a dentist, but it'll give you the best chance to specialize. There's only about 35 students in the class, you can get MUCH more involved in the program and with the faculty on a personal level, endless research and stats padding opportunities. The people who get into Harvard are already smart enough to get the high stats needed to get into specialties...what Harvard provides is the "extra" stuff outside of numbers that really makes an applicant stand out. That's why bascially everyone there ends up getting into a specialty. You can also help build relationships and connections with people around there which might help later on since you said you wanted to work on the east coast as well.

Whatever you choose, I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[JBieber]

Jut make sure to stay away from UCSF. It wont help you reach your ultimate goals as well the other 3 will.....

so you like UCSF that much huh...

 

[minoh87]

whats wrong with ucsf? why wont it help you reach ur goals?

 

[Pennywisdom]

Jut make sure to stay away from UCSF. It wont help you reach your ultimate goals as well the other 3 will.....

If anyone's trolling, it's this guy.

 

[MRSA]

this whole thread is silly.

as one who actually attends one of these "Fancy pants" ivy league dental schools, i can tell you first hand that most of this is non sense. the name of the school isn't as important as you all think. "big name" schools don't create better dentists or offer an advantage over other schools (per say) - they merely collect a specific distribution of applicants (generally > 1.5 standard deviations above the mean0 which really doens't mean s*** as far as your future as a good clinician) . all of the "stuff" at harvard you can find at any school (research, externships, etc). dental school is what you make of it. period.. bust you balls in dental school and you'll do what you want afterward.

and with all due respect americanpie, i can't agree with the statement that "it's never to early to think about specializing". that's is indeed saying "putting the cart before the horse will still make the carriage go". every predent who entertains the notion of specialization merely likes the idea of specialization and their perceived lifestyle that it has to offer without ever having performed any procedure whatsoever. "but wait", you say, "i shadowed an orthodontist for 20 4,520 hours this summer and i KNOW i want to do that". until you place bands/extract a tooth/perform a root canal/strap a screaming kid to a papoose and place an ss crown, everything that preceeds these experiences (e.g. the predental experience) are just notions about a lifestyle. that's part of the dental school experience- -> figuring out what you want to do.

additionally, the average age of matriculating dental students is 23 across the board. it's extermely improbable that one could solidify their entire career path and future for the next 40-60 years with such limited experience/retrospect.

 

[armorshell]

and with all due respect americanpie, i can't agree with the statement that "it's never to early to think about specializing". that's is indeed saying "putting the cart before the horse will still make the carriage go". every predent who entertains the notion of specialization merely likes the idea of specialization and their perceived lifestyle that it has to offer without ever having performed any procedure whatsoever. "but wait", you say, "i shadowed an orthodontist for 20 4,520 hours this summer and i KNOW i want to do that". until you place bands/extract a tooth/perform a root canal/strap a screaming kid to a papoose and place an ss crown, everything that preceeds these experiences (e.g. the predental experience) are just notions about a lifestyle. that's part of the dental school experience- -> figuring out what you want to do.

But yet you'd accept the same shadowing experience as proof someone "knows" they want to do general dentistry? There's no fundamental difference between shadowing a general dentist and shadowing an orthodontist, yet one of the great hypocrisies of the system is basing career decisions on the former is perfectly acceptable but basing them on the latter is the dental education equivalent of burning a flag.

 

[armorshell]

Anyways, back to the original question, I'd go to harvard out of all of those... assuming you get in. All four are good at putting its students into specialties, but Harvard is hands down the best out of all four. It wont make you any better of a dentist, but it'll give you the best chance to specialize. There's only about 35 students in the class, you can get MUCH more involved in the program and with the faculty on a personal level, endless research and stats padding opportunities. The people who get into Harvard are already smart enough to get the high stats needed to get into specialties...what Harvard provides is the "extra" stuff outside of numbers that really makes an applicant stand out. That's why bascially everyone there ends up getting into a specialty. You can also help build relationships and connections with people around there which might help later on since you said you wanted to work on the east coast as well.

You all can believe whatever you want to believe on the subject: that schools like the Ivies will somehow do more to get you in to a specialty or that they won't. It seems a simple thing to me though and I reckon it's completely unsurprising that if you take two chefs, give one of them whole milk and one of them cream, which ones going to end up with the tastier sauce.

Places like the Ivies are storied institutions with a powerful reputation and draw. They can "skim the cream" of the application pool with with ease, and routinely do. Does this mean they function higher than any other institution out there, or do they simply have better ingredients to work with?

 

[americanpierg]

all of the "stuff" at harvard you can find at any school (research, externships, etc). dental school is what you make of it. period.. bust you balls in dental school and you'll do what you want afterward.

Yes, but that "stuff" is MUCH easier to come by at a school that emphasizes it. Heck Harvard even REQUIRES you to do a research project. A school like Harvard already pulls students who can pull high grades and numbers. These students can probably finish in the top 10% of whatever dental schools they went to. What Harvard provides is easier access to the stuff outside of the numbers that helps an individual's application and sets them apart from. Sure they can probably specialize out of any school, but how do argue with a straight face that Harvard does not give them the better chance to do so? This is well known and not some sort of hidden secret among the dental student community. If you know you can already get the grade whereever you go, why not go to a school that you know will try its best to differentiate you outside of numbers? It's not like people are choosing Harvard because they think they'll receive the most amazing clinical preparation and training.

every predent who entertains the notion of specialization merely likes the idea of specialization and their perceived lifestyle that it has to offer without ever having performed any procedure whatsoever.

every predent who entertains the notion of DENTAL SCHOOL merely likes the idea of dentistry and their perceived lifestyle that it has to offer without ever having performed any procedure whatsoever

"but wait", you say, "i shadowed an orthodontist for 20 4,520 hours this summer and i KNOW i want to do that". until you place bands/extract a tooth/perform a root canal/strap a screaming kid to a papoose and place an ss crown, everything that preceeds these experiences (e.g. the predental experience) are just notions about a lifestyle.

"but wait", you say, "i shadowed a general practitioner for 20 4,520 hours this summer and i KNOW i want to do that". until you place bands/extract a tooth/perform a root canal/strap a screaming kid to a papoose and place an ss crown, everything that preceeds these experiences (e.g. the predental experience) are just notions about a lifestyle.

additionally, the average age of matriculating dental students is 23 across the board. it's extermely improbable that one could solidify their entire career path and future for the next 40-60 years with such limited experience/retrospect.

Because thats any different than the decision to become a dentist in the first place....

So... really, I don't understand what you're arguing. Might as well tell people not to pursue dentistry because they've never worked on a patient before.


What's the harm in preparing beforehand if you think you might want to specialize in the future? You can always decide not to specialize and its not like you'll lose anything BUT you can't suddenly make up 3 years of application building if you suddenly decide to specialize at the last minute. I don't know about you but I'd rather take the route that gives me the most opportunities later on even if i end up not pursuing those opportunities.

 

[MRSA]

@ OP, if you are fortunate enough to gain acceptance to all of the above mentioned schools, choose the one that you feel the most comfortable at (e.g. how did you like the campus/preclinic? what do current students think? P/F vs grades? class size? location? PBL vs traditional? etc). you will perform the best if you are happy with your environment rather than the name of a school.

to everyone else, you have reasonable arguments, and though i love me the occasional SDN-pis*sing contest, you must admit that specializing is a step beyond dental school which is why it is ultimately preemptive decision to make before one even begins their professional education. yes, there's nothing wrong with being interested in any of the recognized (or not for that matter) specialties, but to single one out in the beginning is to make a HUGE decision about a career without having the complete framework to decide from, moreover, it precludes the broad scope that GP's already work within.

 

[hopefullyadent]

mit and harvard, etc, and ivies produced the elitist do-uchebags who caused the financial crisis always remember that..and ask yourself: Do you want to be a douch-e?

also a relative of mine turned down ivies for a public for undergrad and got a 43 on the mcat..he's at a top 10 med school (with yet another scholarship) now and thinks its funny how dumb ppl who came from harvard are..he also laughs he got paid to go to college and these idiots had to pay 50k and ended up in the same place and are doing worse lol....so much for doucheba-g producing harvard

 

[jean1120]

mit and harvard, etc, and ivies produced the elitist do-uchebags who caused the financial crisis always remember that..and ask yourself: Do you want to be a douch-e?

also a relative of mine turned down ivies for a public for undergrad and got a 43 on the mcat..he's at a top 10 med school (with yet another scholarship) now and thinks its funny how dumb ppl who came from harvard are..he also laughs he got paid to go to college and these idiots had to pay 50k and ended up in the same place and are doing worse lol....so much for doucheba-g producing harvard

I think that's too much of a generalization. It's true that some people, with their high stats, choose to go to Ivies or other reputable private schools just because of the name value. But there are some who do go in because they truly believe they can get something more out from ivies/privates than from some other school. People your relative met (and I also think it's lame that you're pulling off one of those "my friend thinks...my cousin knows of people...someone I know have seen...etc") might be one of those people who work hard only to get good grades just for the sake of getting good grades and getting into good professional school. But there are people who utilize the world renowned facility/faculty, etc at those private schools (not saying that good public schools don't have such. For instance, UC Berkeley probably has more famous faculties and researches going on than some private schools).
It's definitely a different experience. I also believe that doucheba-gs come from all over the country from every single college that exists out there, so it's unfair to label Harvard as the main source of them (I think you just "notice" them more when they're from Harvard, etc..)
From the tone of your response, I can't help but think that you're compensating for something here. It's wrong for someone to look down on someone from a high pedestal. That may be a defining characteristic of many Harvard doucheba-gs and whatnot...and it's what you're sort of doing here.

 

[jean1120]

I think that's too much of a generalization. It's true that some people, with their high stats, choose to go to Ivies or other reputable private schools just because of the name value. But there are some who do go in because they truly believe they can get something more out from ivies/privates than from some other school. People your relative met (and I also think it's lame that you're pulling off one of those "my friend thinks...my cousin knows of people...someone I know have seen...etc") might be one of those people who work hard only to get good grades just for the sake of getting good grades and getting into good professional school. But there are people who utilize the world renowned facility/faculty, etc at those private schools (not saying that good public schools don't have such. For instance, UC Berkeley probably has more famous faculties and researches going on than some private schools).
It's definitely a different experience. I also believe that doucheba-gs come from all over the country from every single college that exists out there, so it's unfair to label Harvard as the main source of them (I think you just "notice" them more when they're from Harvard, etc..)
From the tone of your response, I can't help but think that you're compensating for something here. It's wrong for someone to look down on someone from a high pedestal. That may be a defining characteristic of many Harvard doucheba-gs and whatnot...and it's what you're sort of doing here.

I correct myself on "truly believe they can get something more out from ivies/privates than from some other school." I meant to say that people believe they can get something different from these schools, not necessarily "more" in terms of the quality of education, etc.

 

[Maygyver]

mit and harvard, etc, and ivies produced the elitist do-uchebags who caused the financial crisis always remember that..and ask yourself: Do you want to be a douch-e?

also a relative of mine turned down ivies for a public for undergrad and got a 43 on the mcat..he's at a top 10 med school (with yet another scholarship) now and thinks its funny how dumb ppl who came from harvard are..he also laughs he got paid to go to college and these idiots had to pay 50k and ended up in the same place and are doing worse lol....so much for doucheba-g producing harvard

Also, your post is pretty useless seeing as this thread is about going to those schools for dental school, not undergrad.

 

[armorshell]

Yes, but that "stuff" is MUCH easier to come by at a school that emphasizes it. Heck Harvard even REQUIRES you to do a research project. A school like Harvard already pulls students who can pull high grades and numbers. These students can probably finish in the top 10% of whatever dental schools they went to. What Harvard provides is easier access to the stuff outside of the numbers that helps an individual's application and sets them apart from.

It's not patently obvious that Harvard (or other highly regarded "specialty schools") provides EC opportunities exceptional from any other dental school. Furthermore, I'd submit that EC's are of almost negligible importance when applying to dental specialties (As compared to say, medical specialties, for some of which a first authored publication is a bare minimum).

Sure they can probably specialize out of any school, but how do argue with a straight face that Harvard does not give them the better chance to do so? This is well known and not some sort of hidden secret among the dental student community. If you know you can already get the grade whereever you go, why not go to a school that you know will try its best to differentiate you outside of numbers? It's not like people are choosing Harvard because they think they'll receive the most amazing clinical preparation and training.

Because even if Harvard did provide some advantage to an applicant who can "make the grade", this advantage is almost certainly minimal, and then you have to balance a subjective, minimal, potential advantage over objective, overt criteria like cost of attendance, clinical experience and quality of life issues (family, location).

What's the harm in preparing beforehand if you think you might want to specialize in the future? You can always decide not to specialize and its not like you'll lose anything BUT you can't suddenly make up 3 years of application building if you suddenly decide to specialize at the last minute. I don't know about you but I'd rather take the route that gives me the most opportunities later on even if i end up not pursuing those opportunities.

Fully agree

 

[armorshell]

to everyone else, you have reasonable arguments, and though i love me the occasional SDN-pis*sing contest, you must admit that specializing is a step beyond dental school which is why it is ultimately preemptive decision to make before one even begins their professional education. yes, there's nothing wrong with being interested in any of the recognized (or not for that matter) specialties, but to single one out in the beginning is to make a HUGE decision about a career without having the complete framework to decide from, moreover, it precludes the broad scope that GP's already work within.

I continue to disagree. As long as you've done the due diligence "required" to choose the profession of dentistry in regards to any specialty of dentistry, in my book you're approved to pursue that even if you haven't pulled a tooth or seen a screaming kid or done a root canal.

How, for example, in your analogy, can anyone possibly become interested in oral surgery? Certainly in dental school one can do extractions and maybe have some experience with implants, but this is only a FRACTION of the total scope of OMFS. Externships are certainly another step, but even in the most trivial of "expanded scope" OMS procedures an externing dental students role will be no more than one would expect from shadowing as a predent. Effectively, as an OMFS extern for anything more than extractions you're functioning as a pre-dent.

Therefore I can conclude what you're describing is a world in which it is impossible for people to truly know if they're interested in OMFS. What we would expect in this situation is a mass exodus from OMFS residencies as people actually get to procedural OMFS and realize they hate it.

This is clearly not the case, therefore your logic is by nature flawed.

quod erat demonstratum

 

[hopefullyadent]

i think the ppl who are vehemently denying my statements are ppl who want to go to ivies..there's nothing wrong with that and im sure u are a good person..you and maygyver both worked hard and prolly deserve to go to harvard..but don't think that just because u went to harvard means ur better than someone else, that tends to happen to a lot of ppl who start out good, normal ppl and then get caught up in this elitist crap when they attend these ivies

and i second armorshell's argument that harvard doesn't provide astounding ECs....hell i myself am a victim of the thing i am criticizing..i went to a school just cause i thought it would have good oppurtunities but the only good research it gives is cleaning test tubes lol.

 

[MRSA]

armorshell, your arguments are compelling and indignantly (jk) submit to your reasoning. however, while i agree with you about 90% (especially your critique about the 'advantages' of ivy/private schools), the statement that "As long as you've done the due diligence "required" to choose the profession of dentistry in regards to any specialty of dentistry, in my book you're approved to pursue that" -- the notion of achieving due diligence is incredibly subjective. how is that even quantified? is it merely shadowing >1000 hrs? reading publications pertaining to a specialty? the threshold is incredibly blurry (if not non-existent).

 

[armorshell]

armorshell, your arguments are compelling and indignantly (jk) submit to your reasoning. however, while i agree with you about 90% (especially your critique about the 'advantages' of ivy/private schools), the statement that "As long as you've done the due diligence "required" to choose the profession of dentistry in regards to any specialty of dentistry, in my book you're approved to pursue that" -- the notion of achieving due diligence is incredibly subjective. how is that even quantified? is it merely shadowing >1000 hrs? reading publications pertaining to a specialty? the threshold is incredibly blurry (if not non-existent).

Subjective is right. Every person is going to differ on ho much they know about themselves and the amount of figuring they need to do to see how much they like something. When I shadowed an OMFS as a predent it lit a spark in me and I spent 100s of hours researching OMFS as a career. I went into dental school knowing that I'd be going into OMFS and here I am today in my first year as an OMFS resident.

However, if the general consensus is someone can spend 100 or so hours shadowing a GP to "know" they want to do dentistry, why is that metric not good enough for a dental specialty?

 

[Montserrat]

Subjective is right. Every person is going to differ on ho much they know about themselves and the amount of figuring they need to do to see how much they like something. When I shadowed an OMFS as a predent it lit a spark in me and I spent 100s of hours researching OMFS as a career. I went into dental school knowing that I'd be going into OMFS and here I am today in my first year as an OMFS resident.

However, if the general consensus is someone can spend 100 or so hours shadowing a GP to "know" they want to do dentistry, why is that metric not good enough for a dental specialty?

It's not so much that shadowing hours is a sufficient metric, but when an applicant chooses to ultimately pursue that route (which can determine the type of exposure to the specialty). I imagine I'm not the only one with classmates who were dead set on an OMFS residency, did an externship and saw how tough it was, and backtracked to square 1. As a pre-dent, shadowing an oral surgeon allows one to examine his professional life. However, the educational experiences that he may relay are typically anecdotal. As a dental student on an externship, getting to see the grind personally is something entirely else. That is my experience anyhow.

It is awesome that you love OMFS and stuck with it. However, once many dental students learn more about the process, many people bug out when they realize the 6 year program is just too much/too long for them to handle.