Best master's program to get into

[Sed8&Intub8]

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Hello folks,

I am a new member here and had a question

I was pre-med and got bachelors degrees in Religion and Biology. Recently when my brother got diagnosed with cancer is when I got very serious about doing medicine, and performed well my last 2 semesters in school. I didn't do bad in school, finished with a 3.4 GPA, but nothing impressive. I also got C's in a few of my science classes (Orgo 2, Genetics, Physiology, and Biochemistry). I have not taken the MCAT and I am preparing for that now. In the mean time, I also though doing a master's program will help, and I applied, and got into programs in epidemiology, public health, and health administration. I know those are all very similar but out of those, which is the best one to go to, to make my application look more attractive? Any other advice? Thanks a lot

 

[Catalystik]

A traditional masters program like those listed will generally give you little benefit in applying to med schools. It will not repair the low undergrad GPA by which you are initially judged (with MCAT score). A tangential benefit might be due to the research opportunities a degree would offer. If you don't get a high GPA in a masters, doing one could even hurt you. There are a few med schools that would give value to a hard-science masters, which you haven't listed.

You would be better off doing an unofficial postbac by taking more undergrad classes in upper-level science, repeating some of the classes you got a C in or getting an A in a higher level course in the same sequence. Another option would be to consider an SMP (Special Masters Program) if you can get an MCAT over 30. This is a premed option for redemption of a low GPA where you compete with med students in med school classes. Typically, you'd need a 3.5 or better for it to help you, so it is a gamble, and they're expensive. If you got an MCAT score of 33+, you might get into an allo med school with minimal additional coursework. If you get a 26+, you'd have a reasonable chance of getting into a DO med school, but you'd need to repeat any prerequisite with a C or lower.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

I was actually planning on retaking all the classes I got a C in while doing the master's. How much do you think that would help?

 

[Catalystik]

To me, retaking the two chem classes and proving you mastered the material would be the most important. As for the upper-level Bio classes, whether you retake them or just take other upper-level bio classes and get As makes less difference as they aren't prereqs. The result would be the same for your GPA for allopathic schools. If you plan to apply to DO schools, there'd be more impact, as repeating the same class with the same credit hours or more, results in the new grade replacing the old when you apply through AACOMAS, their application system.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

hmm, thanks for the info, but out of the three grad programs that I mentioned, which one would be the best one?

 

[LizzyM]

The adcom's major concerns are whether you can handle the science curriculum and if you have a well tested, well formed reason to choose a career in medicine. The degree programs you describe will not provide evidence that you can handle the natural sciences nor your interest in medicine.

That said, epidemiology is useful in understanding the studies of disease in populations and some of the evidence that goes into evidence based medicine. It could be a helpful degree in and of itself and if medicine doesn't work out for you, it could propel you into a doctoral program in epidemiology and a career in academia. Public health is a useful adjust to medicine and can lead to jobs in public & non-profit organizations if you end up not going into medicine. Health administration has the most employment potential if you don't end up in medicine and if you do go into medicine and wish to combine it with some administrative tasks in your practice group.

 

[tupacshaker]

Indiana University Purdue University Indianapolis actually has a 1 year masters program made specifically for pre-professionals. Here's the link to the brochure: http://www.biology.iupui.edu/PPNTBrochure.pdf

I've also heard Loyola has a similar program.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

LizzyM, are you saying that doing those programs and doing well could even potentially hurt me?

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, are you saying that doing those programs and doing well could even potentially hurt me?

Doing one of those programs has what the economists call an "opportunity cost". The time and money you spend on such a program is time and money not spent on what will really help you get into medical school given your suboptimal performance in the pre-requistite courses for medical school.

A good performance in one of those programs will not impress an adcom because they know that the coursework is tangential, at best, to the basic science courses (e.g. genetics, biochemistry) that are considered predictors of aptitude for medical school.

 

[tennisball80]

Indiana University Purdue University Indianapolis actually has a 1 year masters program made specifically for pre-professionals. Here's the link to the brochure: http://www.biology.iupui.edu/PPNTBrochure.pdf

I've also heard Loyola has a similar program.

I don't understand why they included "Law" in the program.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

So you guys think its best for me just drop the masters program that was about to start and take the rest of the year off studying for the MCAT, take the MCAT and apply for one of those 1 year masters programs which would start August 2010, and after completing that, I should apply to Med school? Thanks

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm sure you've addressed this at some point LizzyM, but how does your school in particular view SMP work? Is it well regarded and actually function to (like the SDN rumor has it) mitigate a good part of undergraduate underachievement?

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

And also, do you think in the mean time I should just go back to my school and retake those classes I got C's in or just not worry about them since I will be doing the SMP? Thanks a lot

 

[Catalystik]

First you'll need to get a good MCAT score to qualify for entry to an SMP. To do that you need a solid grasp of the prerequisites. If you need to retake to get that solid grasp, then retake first. Then MCAT. And if it's 30-32, then SMP. If 33+, then apply with or without the SMP.

 

[LizzyM]

Because I'm at a very highly rated school, we tend not to see people who have gone the smp route so I have very little experience evaluating those applications or seeing how my peers handle them.

🙁 Sorry I couldn't be more help with that question.

 

[nabeel76]

Because I'm at a very highly rated school, we tend not to see people who have gone the smp route so I have very little experience evaluating those applications or seeing how my peers handle them.

🙁 Sorry I couldn't be more help with that question.

How would you say a Masters of Science in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology would be viewed? Not necessarily to replace a poor undergraduate GPA, but more so to add to an acceptable/borderline GPA.

In my case my undergraduate cum gpa over 2 degree's (bio and chem) is a 3.5 (science 3.7). I am doing the masters out of interest in the subject, not for remedial reasons, but if I do well will it actually help me? Thanks.

 

[LizzyM]

How would you say a Masters of Science in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology would be viewed? Not necessarily to replace a poor undergraduate GPA, but more so to add to an acceptable/borderline GPA.

In my case my undergraduate cum gpa over 2 degree's (bio and chem) is a 3.5 (science 3.7). I am doing the masters out of interest in the subject, not for remedial reasons, but if I do well will it actually help me? Thanks.

Meh. Won't hurt, won't help. There is too much grade inflation in most grad programs to interprete the grades earned in a MS program. If you do well it doesn't tell us anything, really. If you do poorly, it tells us something you'd rather we didn't know.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Because I'm at a very highly rated school, we tend not to see people who have gone the smp route so I have very little experience evaluating those applications or seeing how my peers handle them.

🙁 Sorry I couldn't be more help with that question.

that seems to lend a bit of credence to yet another rumor i've heard murmured, that top tier schools tend not to be particularly impressed by smps.

 

[nabeel76]

Meh. Won't hurt, won't help. There is too much grade inflation in most grad programs to interprete the grades earned in a MS program. If you do well it doesn't tell us anything, really. If you do poorly, it tells us something you'd rather we didn't know.

Oh. Thats too bad. It doesn't seem to sound like too fair of a system then, the people that I have known to go on to masters degrees in the sciences have had to work every bit as hard, if not harder, to do well in their respective programs. Well in my case, I hope that my gpa isn't too low for med school admissions, after two undergraduate degrees I would really like to move on to some graduate work and obtain a deeper level of understanding within my choosen field.

Thanks for the info though, its always good to get a realistic perspective of how much certain factors will weigh in the admissions process.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

So, based on what I see. Basically, a low undergrad GPA for any reason is something you can never put behind you no matter what you do?

You can do good in the MCAT, but the GPA will pull you down. You can get a masters in all really hard sciences, but they will still look at your undergrad GPA.

 

[jyb5011]

Hey man, don't be discouraged by what people say on this message board. If you want to get into medical school, you will. Your GPA is fine. I was in the same boat as you last year and decided to do a master degree in Public Health and I am so glad I did. Do something you enjoy doing. If you think an SMP will help you and you are willing to dish out the money, then by all means do it. I considered public health and decided on that program over Temple's post-bacc program for the med school. The reality is that med school is a complete crap-shoot unless you have stellar scores in everything. So why not enjoy yourself and do something you like? When you apply and people see that you were passionate about whatever program you chose to be in, you participated and did good things, you will get in somewhere. If you keep doing everything just to impress medical schools, you become a machine. Just stick to it, if you want more info on what exactly you learn in public health, just shoot me a message. Good luck man.

 

[LizzyM]

So, based on what I see. Basically, a low undergrad GPA for any reason is something you can never put behind you no matter what you do?

You can do good in the MCAT, but the GPA will pull you down. You can get a masters in all really hard sciences, but they will still look at your undergrad GPA.

Everyone has an undergrad gpa and you will be compared to other applicants by gpa and MCAT. Do I want to interview someone with a gpa of 3.4, and M.S. degree with a 3.7, MCAT of 34 or do I want to go with same same major(s) and same school,undergrad gpa of 3.7, MCAT of 34?

On the other hand, an MCAT of 33 or higher (easier to say than do) can give you better than average odds of matriculating with an undergrad gpa of 3.4 so all hope is not lost.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

Everyone has an undergrad gpa and you will be compared to other applicants by gpa and MCAT. Do I want to interview someone with a gpa of 3.4, and M.S. degree with a 3.7, MCAT of 34 or do I want to go with same same major(s) and same school,undergrad gpa of 3.7, MCAT of 34?

Wait, so which one do you want to interview?

 

[LizzyM]

Wait, so which one do you want to interview?

Well I can compare 2 applicants head to head:
Same MCAT, same school, same major(s).
One has a gpa of 3.4 and one has a gpa of 3.7

Which is academically stronger?

Does it matter if one has a master's degree besides? Does that make the applicant with the lower undergrad gpa better than the applicant with the high undergrad gpa? You tell me.

 

[jyb5011]

But aren't there certain outside factors? Like did the person with the lower GPA have a job or do more research or participate in a sport while the higher GPA did not?

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

Well I can compare 2 applicants head to head:
Same MCAT, same school, same major(s).
One has a gpa of 3.4 and one has a gpa of 3.7

Which is academically stronger?

Does it matter if one has a master's degree besides? Does that make the applicant with the lower undergrad gpa better than the applicant with the high undergrad gpa? You tell me.

I would think that the guy with the masters degree would be more likely to get interviewed. The reason I say this is because he has the same GPA in a higher degree than the other guy with the same GPA in a lower degree. Is this a correct way of thinking?

 

[weightyheart]

Well I can compare 2 applicants head to head:
Same MCAT, same school, same major(s).
One has a gpa of 3.4 and one has a gpa of 3.7

Which is academically stronger?

Does it matter if one has a master's degree besides? Does that make the applicant with the lower undergrad gpa better than the applicant with the high undergrad gpa? You tell me.

If medical school academic performance is the main criteria and the reason for accepting high undergraduate GPA and decent MCAT scores, how can administrators and admissions committees rationalize accepting the 5-10% of medical students who fail their classes - students at the bottom of the class who have denied medical school to other applicants of that year. How do you identify the underperforming undergraduate students who might honor their medical school classes, because surely they exist. These are students who are rejected by medical schools year after year, until they are finally accepted, and they honor all their courses.
"Sad story."
"At least they were accepted in the end."
But for some, those interim years were the worst years of their lives. Years they asked, how many times must I be rejected before I give up? My experience has been that admissions committees like to disregard ample evidence of excellence acquired post baccalaureate and instead make their decisions on the undergraduate grades acquired 5 years before.

 

[nabeel76]

Well I can compare 2 applicants head to head:
Same MCAT, same school, same major(s).
One has a gpa of 3.4 and one has a gpa of 3.7

Which is academically stronger?

Does it matter if one has a master's degree besides? Does that make the applicant with the lower undergrad gpa better than the applicant with the high undergrad gpa? You tell me.

Is this scenario proposed on the assumption that both candidates have the same life experiences, extra curricular activities, etc.? Would the student with a 3.4 ever beat the student with a 3.7, especially in cases where the 3.4 student brings diversity, unique experiences, etc?

Excuse me if I am misinterpreting your post, but it sounds like GPA and MCAT are the be-all end-all in regards to your medical school.

Additionally, I don't think that you could directly state that the 3.7 GPA'er is still academically stronger then the 3.4'er with a masters degree. For most students the difference between a 3.4 and 3.7 could be attributed to persistence and time management skills, the 3.7'er might have been more active in obtaining help, studying in advance to get issues resolved, etc. I am sure that these are the qualities that make the 3.7 student more desirable to medical schools and justifiably explain why the 3.7 student is more likely to get accepted.

However, master’s degrees in the hard sciences, regardless of how they may be graded, all demand these exact qualities. In order to be successful in these programs that 3.4'er must have learned to manage his time and make up for any deficiencies that might have contributed to his/her 3.4 in undergrad, or else he/she wouldn't get a 3.7+ in the grad program.

Therefore, when comparing the two students at the time of application that discrepancy should not be as big as I think you make it out to be. These are just my initial thoughts; I would be interested to hear any opposing arguments, as I have no experience in the matter.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

i feel the path of least resistance (and most sense) is to change your mind based on LizzyM's statements, not change her mind based on yours

 

[nabeel76]

i feel the path of least resistance (and most sense) is to change your mind based on LizzyM's statements, not change her mind based on yours

Not sure if this is in reference to my post or not, but I am not in search of remedial coursework for med school admissions. I am doing the masters out of my own interest. I am just trying to pick her brain on whats really the reason for some of the bias that might exist at the admissions level.

I personally don't feel that grade inflation is a fair justification to discredit all of the graduate program GPA's in the major US institutions. If that were the case, well then there are also huge discrepencies between different undergraduate institutions which aren't really taken into account at the admissions level.

 

[LizzyM]

Truth be told, we seldom get applications from identical twins who attended the same school, same major, same ECs but radically different gpas.

gpa is just one of a six or more factors that goes into the assessment of an applicant and while a 3.7 beats a 3.4 + 3.7 there well may be other factors that makes the 3.4 a more desirable candidate.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

LizzyM, I do not quite understand why the person with the 3.7 in undergrad would be more desirable than the person with the 3.4 and 3.7 with a masters. From my understanding, aren't those SMP's that you mentioned very difficult and have much more advanced science classes then the ones that you take in undergrad?

 

[nabeel76]

LizzyM, I do not quite understand why the person with the 3.7 in undergrad would be more desirable than the person with the 3.4 and 3.7 with a masters. From my understanding, aren't those SMP's that you mentioned very difficult and have much more advanced science classes then the ones that you take in undergrad?

I think she is referring to 3.4 undergrad + 3.7 MS, not SMP.

I would venture to say that a 3.7 SMP would be different since it would then provide a direct comparison of how well the student does in medical school classes against other accepted medical students.

 

[nabeel76]

Truth be told, we seldom get applications from identical twins who attended the same school, same major, same ECs but radically different gpas.

gpa is just one of a six or more factors that goes into the assessment of an applicant and while a 3.7 beats a 3.4 + 3.7 there well may be other factors that makes the 3.4 a more desirable candidate.

That makes sense. It does eventually come down to all factors at the end of the day then.

Well I know this is all hypothetical, but in terms of just the GPA factor, what if the 3.4 student has just as high a science GPA? In other words, how does your school view the science GPA in relation to the cGPA?

Would a high undergraduate science GPA combined with a high hard science masters GPA prove to the admissions committee that the student would be able to handle the academic rigors of med school? If I were to propose this scenario for example:

Student A: 3.4 cGPA 3.7 bcmpGPA 3.7 masters hard science GPA
Student B: 3.7 cGPA 3.7 bcmpGPA no masters

Would their still be as large a discrepency in terms of just the GPA factor?

I appreciate your time, I am just curious since my undergrad case would be similiar to student A. I have a 3.5 cGPA but a 3.7 bcmpGPA. My cGPA would be just as high as my bcmp, but I had to drop out of school to work full time and help support my parents (refugees) when I was 18 back in 1995. It resulted in 5 F's that semester - all non-science.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

My cGPA would be just as high as my bcmp, but I had to drop out of school to work full time and help support my parents (refugees) when I was 18 back in 1995. It resulted in 5 F's that semester - all non-science.

If I was on an admissions committee I would look at that soo positively, but I am not, and I don't know if they will. Personally, I would think that they wouldn't care. Just sharing my thoughts here.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

OK. So this is what I have decided to do after a lot of thought.

1. Prepare and go well on the MCAT, take it during the April 2010 test time.
2. Apply to SMP programs
3. During the summer of 2010 repeat Orgo 2 and do well, since it is the only pre-med class that I got a C in. I might also just take another upper level bio class, just to try to fine tune my undergrad GPA a little.
4. Continue volunteering, shadowing and building clinical experience
5. Hopefully get into an SMP program and do well in that program
6. Apply to Med school, and hope for the best.

What do you guys think about this? Thanks

 

[Moonglow]

Look, what Lizzy is saying is that a 3.4 undergrad GPA will get no consideration at her school, nor mine. You do have opportunities at many other programs, both in the US and abroad - but, no matter what else you do, you need to raise that 3.4 GPA.

 

[LizzyM]

In the end, there are 30,000+ unique applications and every one of them has had ups & downs, twists and turns in their path to medical school. A few are superstars, some are academically strong but socially ******ed, some are barely acceptable from an academic perspective but have so much sparkle and energy that they seem like natural leaders. In the end, it takes hours to discuss and debate the merits of the applicants.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

Oh man, I am getting confused. So should I take more undergrad science courses to bring my undergrad GPA up or just do an SMP!? Which one?

 

[nabeel76]

Oh man, I am getting confused. So should I take more undergrad science courses to bring my undergrad GPA up or just do an SMP!? Which one?

I think the decision is ultimately up to you as both options will work if your successful. The plan you have posted above sounds good and I would follow that if I were you.

Georgetown has a good SMP and with a 3.4 GPA along with a 30+ MCAT you'd be golden for their program. I am starting a Masters of Science in Biochem and Molecular Bio at the Medical Center there next semester so I might see you around. If you need any info about the DC area just PM me.

P.S. If you do decide to go the SMP route make sure you get your timeline straight, I believe you need to have an MCAT score prior to applying to these programs, and if you want to start the program this coming fall plan accordingly.

 

[nabeel76]

Oh man, I am getting confused. So should I take more undergrad science courses to bring my undergrad GPA up or just do an SMP!? Which one?

I think the decision is ultimately up to you as both options will work if your successful. The plan you have posted above sounds good and I would follow that if I were you.

Georgetown has a good SMP and with a 3.4 GPA along with a 30+ MCAT you'd be golden for their program. I am starting a Masters of Science in Biochem and Molecular Bio at the Medical Center there next semester so I might see you around. If you need any info about the DC area just PM me.

P.S. If you do decide to go the SMP route make sure you get your timeline straight, I believe you need to have an MCAT score prior to applying to these programs, and if you want to start the program this coming fall plan accordingly.

 

[nabeel76]

Look, what Lizzy is saying is that a 3.4 undergrad GPA will get no consideration at her school, nor mine. You do have opportunities at many other programs, both in the US and abroad - but, no matter what else you do, you need to raise that 3.4 GPA.

I think the OP is confused on how he/she should raise it. Would you recommend him/her raising it via an SMP or post bac undergraduate coursework? If post bac undergraduate work, to what point should he/she raise it to? As I can imagine it would take quit a while to raise the GPA if he/she has over 120 credits.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

I think the OP is confused on how he/she should raise it. Would you recommend him/her raising it via an SMP or post bac undergraduate coursework? If post bac undergraduate work, to what point should he/she raise it to? As I can imagine it would take quit a while to raise the GPA if he/she has over 120 credits.

I actually did a dual degree program so I have 170 credits...

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

I live in Fairfax, so I am familiar with the area...but Georgetown is soo expensive, its like $50,000 for the one year program. That price tag is a big hinderance for me. I would love to go there though because my cousin went there and he raves about their program.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Look, what Lizzy is saying is that a 3.4 undergrad GPA will get no consideration at her school, nor mine. You do have opportunities at many other programs, both in the US and abroad - but, no matter what else you do, you need to raise that 3.4 GPA.

even with a 45 MCAT? harsh.

 

[LizzyM]

I actually did a dual degree program so I have 170 credits...

don't even try to raise your uGPA; it is hopeless given the denominator.

A SMP seems to work for some people but it is going to be the equiavent of a 5th year of medical school. Would you go to a 5 year school if it were your only option? Think of it that way and go to the best school you can get into (measured by proportion who go on to US medical schools).

 

[nabeel76]

I live in Fairfax, so I am familiar with the area...but Georgetown is soo expensive, its like $50,000 for the one year program. That price tag is a big hinderance for me. I would love to go there though because my cousin went there and he raves about their program.

Yeah, if you need room and board you'll be looking at approx 50-60K. However, if you can deal with the commute from Fairfax to DC you can save yourself some money. I think the tuition is about 42K or so. Either way, all of these SMP programs are expensive and your therefore not going to be able to dodge that bullet if you want to go the SMP route - which I personally think is your best bet.

You could always try the post bac route, but with a 170+ credits your probably going to need about 2+ years of straight A coursework to push that up into the 3.6 range. Also keep in mind that as a postbacc student you don't qualify for grants and school scholarships and therefore 2+ years of coursework will also cost you...

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

Yea man, we will see. Money money...why can't education be free. lol