Best Match in the Country

[ToxicFugu]

What medical schools tend to have the best residency matches in the country? I know this is a subjective question, but what have you guys heard?

Also, is there a list somwhere showing the average Step 1 scores of students in various schools?

Thanks.

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[HiddenTruth]

What medical schools tend to have the best residency matches in the country? I know this is a subjective question, but what have you guys heard?

Also, is there a list somwhere showing the average Step 1 scores of students in various schools?

Thanks.

probably the top 10-20 ranked schools -- harvard, washU, hopkins, Penn, stanford, UCSF, UMich, Duke, UCLA, Columbia, Cornell, mayo, etc.

not to say that other's don't have matches into these places, but these are considered some of the "best residency matches" as they are ranked the highest (if that is what u mean by best), so people comming from these places generally place at similar programs.

 

[automaton]

probably the top 10-20 ranked schools -- harvard, washU, hopkins, Penn, stanford, UCSF, UMich, Duke, UCLA, Columbia, Cornell, mayo, etc.

not to say that other's don't have matches into these places, but these are considered some of the "best residency matches" as they are ranked the highest (if that is what u mean by best), so people comming from these places generally place at similar programs.

there's at least one school that doesn't belong on that list................

 

[HiddenTruth]

there's at least one school that doesn't belong on that list................

first of all, that was a very subjective list based on the highest ranked schools as i stated in my post.

But, just so the curiosity doesn't kill the cat, why don't you enthusiaze me with which schools from the list i provided, don't obtain matches into top programs?

HT

 

[fourthyearmed]

The best match is matching where you want to match and there is no way to figure out which school sends the most people to their first choice. If your first choice is in Texas or Tennessee or even North Dakota (just picking a less popular state, no offense to anyone) then that is the best match for you not Hopkins or Harvard. If no one from a certain school WANTS to go to Hopkins then no one will match there. This does not necessarily mean that no one COULD match there.

 

[automaton]

first of all, that was a very subjective list based on the highest ranked schools as i stated in my post.

But, just so the curiosity doesn't kill the cat, why don't you enthusiaze me with which schools from the list i provided, don't obtain matches into top programs?

HT

curiosity kills the cat not because of the curiosity but because it acts upon it.

MICHIGAN.

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

From my understanding, Michigan matches extremely well. They're currently the #7 ranked research school by US News.

In fact, here's their match list.

 

[HiddenTruth]

curiosity kills the cat not because of the curiosity but because it acts upon it.

MICHIGAN.

Last I checked, both UCSF and UMich are highly ranked schools, both being the most matched into places in UMich's match list-- provided by the poster above.

 

[HiddenTruth]

The best match is matching where you want to match and there is no way to figure out which school sends the most people to their first choice. If your first choice is in Texas or Tennessee or even North Dakota (just picking a less popular state, no offense to anyone) then that is the best match for you not Hopkins or Harvard. If no one from a certain school WANTS to go to Hopkins then no one will match there. This does not necessarily mean that no one COULD match there.

Agree with what you said; however, I think the OP meant the "COULD" possibility. Obviously, the term "best" is very subjective. In your case, best is where you wish to be. However, I think the OP is alluding the term, "best" to the most highly and sought out programs/hospitals in the country. Maybe the OP can advise on this matter.

 

[azzarah]

Hopkins and yale from what I noticed during interviews.

 

[automaton]

Hopkins and yale from what I noticed during interviews.

hopkins, yale, and stanford have pretty much the best match i've seen. i'm not familiar with the other top schools, or they don't particularly stand out in my mind.

i think if you look at michigan's matchlist, while it's certainly very good, it's not of the same caliber as the other top 10 schools. compare stanford's or yale's list with michigan's. michigan is higher ranked than both, but its matchlist is clearly inferior.

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

The trick is that most of Michigan's best students stay at Michigan. About half their class stayed. That's a lot, even for the "home team".

 

[b&ierstiefel]

The trick is that most of Michigan's best students stay at Michigan. About half their class stayed. That's a lot, even for the "home team".

Typically 20-30% of Michigan's med students match at UMich. That is a lot...however, the faculty try a lot to keep students here. Some people here think that this is a big success. Other students don't. There is a hypothesis running around that grade deflation is one way Michigan can keep their own med students. For example, on Internal Medicine, 50-60% of the students get a Pass. Here, a Pass is considered a honorable achievement. However, let's face it now...a Pass isn't gonna get you to Brigham, Hopkins, MassGen, UCSF for medicine. But Michigan will understand if you got a pass...and you can easily make it into their medicine program. Grade deflation is not limited to just this clinical rotation either. Generally in each track of 40 students, only 5-6 of them will get Honors during the rotation. Hence, one can see that getting high grades at Michigan is very hard and usually those folks are able to leave the state. When coming up with rank lists, where would one rather go? Michigan hospital is a very good hospital and there aren't too many hospitals ranked above Michigan. However, there are plenty of hospitals ranked lower than Michigan...so one has two choices if one was a Pass/High Pass (no honors) student here...leave the state and go to a hospital ranked lower than Michigan or stay in-state and match into a good hospital. Now...please note that I don't use the word "better" or "worse" when I compare hospitals. The whole diatribe above would in reality apply to a person who ONLY cared about choosing a residency program just based on the institution's reputation and who wanted to disregard other important life issues.

Now on that note, it all depends on where you're coming from...many students here are from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. And I don't mean to sound like a snob but many of us here think that Michigan Hospital is one of THE best hospitals in the midwest.

A bit of whining comes from the California contingent of students here...their whole intention of coming to Michigan is for the "top 10 education" and then returning to their home state afterwards. California is a wonderful place...who can blame them? Many of them do not make it back to CA because matching in California is very competitive...I mean lots of ppl want to match there. I'm from the east coast but I think doing residency out in CA would be a pleasant endeavor.

I'm a student here but I won't lie. If you look at our match list from this past year and going back even a few years, you won't see many of us matching at Hopkins and the Harvard hospitals to name a few of the top places. Personally I don't know if many of them WANTED to match there or whether they didn't even rank some of the "top" places in general. Again, many students here have family in the midwest and don't have as much desire to re-locate to the coasts where some of the more storied programs are.

Automaton, objectively looking at the match lists at several of the other "top 10" schools, I share your sentiments. The lists don't lie. I do think that this is kinda ironic given that Michigan consistently has been ranked #4 in terms of reputation in the residency directors' eyes. But again, you have to take into account the variety of issues that our students take into account when ranking programs. A lot of us here really DO want to stay here for residency. Personally, I wouldn't mind moving out of the state...but I'm applying to residency now so I'll see how things go

Cheers!

 

[automaton]

you're exactly right andy. i couldn't have said it better. just right on the money.

 

[SunnyS81]

I don't think one can understate geographic bias. Here at Michigan, I would say that over 75% of our students are midwesterners (6 in my class are from below the mason-dixie line for perspective....and we might have a total of five people from the major east coast cities).....many of them have no intention of leaving the midwest after med school........I know many of my classmates even as M2's have said, they'll like to be here, at WashU, or some place in Chicago. Being the only state school besides UCSF in the top ten inherently builds this bias into our students. Besides UM, there aren't any other hospitals in the state that you would see and think "wow, that's a great match", unlike UCSF, whose students can go to Stanford, UCLA, UCSD, etc.

I remember Yale's list last year rocked. Anyone have any ideas why?

 

[HiddenTruth]

I don't think one can understate geographic bias. Here at Michigan, I would say that over 75% of our students are midwesterners (6 in my class are from below the mason-dixie line for perspective....and we might have a total of five people from the major east coast cities).....many of them have no intention of leaving the midwest after med school........I know many of my classmates even as M2's have said, they'll like to be here, at WashU, or some place in Chicago.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but is Ann Arbor really that cool? I mean, realistically, how is the city?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Actually Ann Arbor isn't a city...it's more like a town. But it's a fun place to live. You don't have all the big city amenities but there are plenty of things to do. If you spend 4 years in Ann Arbor though, you do get a little bored of it and you may not mind leaving. But overall, it's a great place to have a medical school. Awesome tertiary care hospital and major referral center and you don't have to worry about safety issues that you would in a big urban city (especially those that get bad reputations such as Philly, New Haven, Baltimore). I can walk to or from the lab or hospital late at night and not worry about getting shot or mugged. You won't find many panhandlers begging for fitty cents. Huge student community here in Ann Arbor as well (which of course has its good and bad aspects).

 

[HiddenTruth]

Actually Ann Arbor isn't a city...it's more like a town. But it's a fun place to live. You don't have all the big city amenities but there are plenty of things to do. If you spend 4 years in Ann Arbor though, you do get a little bored of it and you may not mind leaving. But overall, it's a great place to have a medical school. Awesome tertiary care hospital and major referral center and you don't have to worry about safety issues that you would in a big urban city (especially those that get bad reputations such as Philly, New Haven, Baltimore). I can walk to or from the lab or hospital late at night and not worry about getting shot or mugged. You won't find many panhandlers begging for fitty cents. Huge student community here in Ann Arbor as well (which of course has its good and bad aspects).

coo, thanks for the input--never been to mich before.
So I have another question, if Mich inbreeds a lot with it's residents, does that also mean that it is very competetive as an outsider to get into a res. spot? And, as someone said earlier--that they utilize grade deflation--so do "passes" look just as good from elsewhere as they do from Mich to Mich PD's? (I imagine not).

 

[b&ierstiefel]

HT, those are difficult questions to answer from my standpoint since I don't know what goes through the minds of the PDs here My gut feeling would be that it might be a bit harder for an outsider but not impossible. For instance, IM has many spots each year and many of them are outsiders. However a quarter of them are filled by Michigan grads. General surgery usually reserves 2-3 of their 8-10 spots (?) with Michigan grads. Path usually fills 2 of their 6 spots with Michigan grads. Other fields, I'm less sure about but one can just do the math I guess by looking at the actual match lists.

The whole grade deflation hypothesis (or theory depending on the truth of the matter) I mentioned before is something that's going around by mouth. I can't really ascertain the truth behind it. However, IM and pediatrics clerkships are the hardest to even get a high pass let alone honors (again 50-60% of the 40 students doing the rotation at any given time automatically get a Pass). I certainly hope that this is not a scheme to trap people in Michigan for residency. But one can look at this in two ways:
(1) I have lots of P's on my transcript...I'm screwed...I'll never be able to leave Michigan or will be forced to go to what I perceive is a worse institution.
(2) I have lots of P's on my transcript...thank God Michigan understands...at least I'll have a good shot at matching at my home institution!
It all depends on where you're coming from and your mindset I guess

Again, my gut feeling is that Michigan PDs would be more sympathetic toward a Michigan Pass than a Pass from another school. But I qualify myself in saying that I don't know what really goes on in the PDs minds here. Some or all of this may be true...or my statements may all be a load of bunk.

 

[ktat72]

Does anyone have WashU's match list?

 

[HiddenTruth]

HT, those are difficult questions to answer from my standpoint since I don't know what goes through the minds of the PDs here My gut feeling would be that it might be a bit harder for an outsider but not impossible. For instance, IM has many spots each year and many of them are outsiders. However a quarter of them are filled by Michigan grads. General surgery usually reserves 2-3 of their 8-10 spots (?) with Michigan grads. Path usually fills 2 of their 6 spots with Michigan grads. Other fields, I'm less sure about but one can just do the math I guess by looking at the actual match lists.

The whole grade deflation hypothesis (or theory depending on the truth of the matter) I mentioned before is something that's going around by mouth. I can't really ascertain the truth behind it. However, IM and pediatrics clerkships are the hardest to even get a high pass let alone honors (again 50-60% of the 40 students doing the rotation at any given time automatically get a Pass). I certainly hope that this is not a scheme to trap people in Michigan for residency. But one can look at this in two ways:
(1) I have lots of P's on my transcript...I'm screwed...I'll never be able to leave Michigan or will be forced to go to what I perceive is a worse institution.
(2) I have lots of P's on my transcript...thank God Michigan understands...at least I'll have a good shot at matching at my home institution!
It all depends on where you're coming from and your mindset I guess

Again, my gut feeling is that Michigan PDs would be more sympathetic toward a Michigan Pass than a Pass from another school. But I qualify myself in saying that I don't know what really goes on in the PDs minds here. Some or all of this may be true...or my statements may all be a load of bunk.

nice put--good theory, i'll take your word for it

 

[Sohalia]

How can you really tell how good a school's match list is? I mean yes, if a huge number of people went into IM you can go look up what the top ranked programs for IM are, but what about when people are going into a whole bunch of different things: EM, rads, gas, neuro, ortho, path, psych, optho, derm, blah blah blah? I don't know about you, but I don't know what the top programs are for each specialty, just the one(s) I am interested in. So for the most part when I see other schools' match lists I am only able to recognize how many "name brand" schools their students matched at. However, it is my understanding that in some specialties the top programs are not the ones carrying a recognizable name (i.e. they don't have a top 10 med school, and aren't well known as being a top program in a particular specialty outside of those actually applying in that specialty.) Do you guys compare match lists based only on major specialties like IM?

 

[HiddenTruth]

How can you really tell how good a school's match list is? I mean yes, if a huge number of people went into IM you can go look up what the top ranked programs for IM are, but what about when people are going into a whole bunch of different things: EM, rads, gas, neuro, ortho, path, psych, optho, derm, blah blah blah? I don't know about you, but I don't know what the top programs are for each specialty, just the one(s) I am interested in. So for the most part when I see other schools' match lists I am only able to recognize how many "name brand" schools their students matched at. However, it is my understanding that in some specialties the top programs are not the ones carrying a recognizable name (i.e. they don't have a top 10 med school, and aren't well known as being a top program in a particular specialty outside of those actually applying in that specialty.) Do you guys compare match lists based only on major specialties like IM?

I think when most people refer to "best matches" in terms of the match list, they look for the name branded schools. You raise a very interesting point, and you are right, for some highly ranked specialties, the programs are not at a top 10 institute. However, I think a lot of specialty rankings correlate with the medical school rankings, and therefore, matches to SCHOOLS (with recognizable names and rankigns) is what's looked at by most people rather than specific programs for each specialty when generally asking about "best matches" (best referring to highly ranked programs). And when I say a lot of schools correlate with specialty rankings, I mean to say that in a very leanient, subjective manner--i.e Harvard maybe ranked #1 for medical schools--well I am sure a lot of it's specialty rankings are amongst the TOP in the country--so correlation in that sense, not any specifics. But, then again, this is not tru for all top 10-20 medical schools. The answer to the OP's question was answered very subjectively because it was a very vague and subjective q to begin with.