Best MD/PhD format?

[DeadCactus]

Obviously a matter of opinion. What layout do you find the best for an MD/PhD program in terms of basic years, clinical years, and research years?

I've seen four layouts:

The standard MSI and II, graduate studies research, MS III and IV.

The similar layout but with graduate classes during MSI and II and then a few clinical type course during the last years of the graduate studies.

MSI, II, and III followed by research, followed by MS IV.

Completion of PhD requirements followed by uninterrupted medical school. (Though I've only seen this as an option at the Military's Medical School.)

Which would you prefer?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gbwillner]

Obviously a matter of opinion. What layout do you find the best for an MD/PhD program in terms of basic years, clinical years, and research years?

I've seen four layouts:

The standard MSI and II, graduate studies research, MS III and IV.

The similar layout but with graduate classes during MSI and II and then a few clinical type course during the last years of the graduate studies.

MSI, II, and III followed by research, followed by MS IV.

Completion of PhD requirements followed by uninterrupted medical school. (Though I've only seen this as an option at the Military's Medical School.)

Which would you prefer?

I think the best set-up is the ones that shorten the basic science MSI and MSII years. Doing clinical rotations before grad school gives you a sense of what medicine is really like, lets you try out potential future training options, and can really save your arse after grad school. This is because you will have 6 Mo. of clinics out of the way, and if your thesis defense gets pushed back, you have a cushion that will still allow you to pick a future career and possibly graduate a year earlier.

 

[Neuronix]

MSI -> MSIII or MSIV, then PhD, then internship/residency. This will never be done with full-funding because programs are too scared we'll run off with med school fully paid for. I've always thought and still do think that doing a PhD before you have much clinical experience doesn't give you enough clinical sense to think about research in clinical terms. Similarly, I think it's better to do a PhD related to your future clinical career rather than just do a PhD and think about your clinical career later. You won't know what your clinical career will be or what it will entail until you've spent some time in it.

 

[meowkat444]

this is why i like duke so much (a year of clinicals before phd). but what do you guys think of pitt, penn, and others that let you do maybe 2 clinical rotations before phd? worth it?

 

[DeadCactus]

MSI -> MSIII or MSIV, then PhD, then internship/residency. This will never be done with full-funding because programs are too scared we'll run off with med school fully paid for.

Actually the whole inspiration for this thread was the discovery the Texas A&M MD/PhD program has the option to begin graduate studies after MS III (and is a fully funded program, though not MSTP).

Though I agree with you and don't see why they just don't add a commitment to finish the PhD or repay the funding to MSTP in order to facilitate a more interwoven MD/PhD program...

 

[Neuronix]

Though I agree with you and don't see why they just don't add a commitment to finish the PhD

How? Under pain of throwing you out of medical school too?

or repay the funding to MSTP in order to facilitate a more interwoven MD/PhD program...

Schools can't force someone to repay the money. The NIGMS doesn't allow programs to give such "contracts", so only the non-MSTPs try to make students sign something, and they're not valid in the courts anyways. Many years ago a MD/PhD program tried to enforce this and a court found that you couldn't sue for that vast sum of back money.

So all the programs are playing defense to some extent. I guess Texas A&M trusts us? Or maybe they just think they can win in a lawsuit or intimidate the heck out of us. Who knows.

The NIGMS's reasoning (and mine as well) is why force someone to continue a bum PhD if it's not going to happen or force someone to continue in a field they hate. I guess the programs figure they can still get two years of med school tuition out of you if you drop the program. They also figure that 2 years of medical school when coming back is enough of a hurdle that it acts as a deterrent to leaving the PhD because you're almost done med school. I think that's kind of silly myself--like why would someone necessarily be more prone to drop out with 1 year vs. 2 years to go?

 

[DeadCactus]

How? Under pain of throwing you out of medical school too?



Schools can't force someone to repay the money. The NIGMS doesn't allow programs to give such "contracts", so only the non-MSTPs try to make students sign something, and they're not valid in the courts anyways. Many years ago a MD/PhD program tried to enforce this and a court found that you couldn't sue for that vast sum of back money.

So all the programs are playing defense to some extent. I guess Texas A&M trusts us? Or maybe they just think they can win in a lawsuit or intimidate the heck out of us. Who knows.

The NIGMS's reasoning (and mine as well) is why force someone to continue a bum PhD if it's not going to happen or force someone to continue in a field they hate. I guess the programs figure they can still get two years of med school tuition out of you if you drop the program. They also figure that 2 years of medical school when coming back is enough of a hurdle that it acts as a deterrent to leaving the PhD because you're almost done med school. I think that's kind of silly myself--like why would someone necessarily be more prone to drop out with 1 year vs. 2 years to go?

That's what I'm saying, why doesn't NIGMS change their policy and allow for the contract? If it won't hold up in court, well then nm. But I don't see the harm in saying here's a loan. If you finish the MD/PhD we pay it all of, if not then you're in the same boat as every other medical student, no biggie.

It seems like the benfit of added efficiency and possible even more MSTP seats (since they don't have to worry about funding attritions) out-weighs the possibility of a few people continuing just to get free tuition...

 

[Neuronix]

That's what I'm saying, why doesn't NIGMS change their policy and allow for the contract? If it won't hold up in court, well then nm. But I don't see the harm in saying here's a loan. If you finish the MD/PhD we pay it all of, if not then you're in the same boat as every other medical student, no biggie.

Personal e-mail communications with the NIGMS MSTP director lead me to believe he feels that one shouldn't have to stay in a PhD or MSTP because they feel trapped by debt if they were to leave that program. What's the point of training a miserable PhD who would never use it and force them to stay so they can avoid a huge bill?

Perhaps that opinion could change, but I agree with it.

 

[Ruz]

Personal e-mail communications with the NIGMS MSTP director lead me to believe he feels that one shouldn't have to stay in a PhD or MSTP because they feel trapped by debt if they were to leave that program. What's the point of training a miserable PhD who would never use it and force them to stay so they can avoid a huge bill?

Perhaps that opinion could change, but I agree with it.

I really see where you are coming from, but I can think of 6 kids that I know personally, who are highly qualified and would sign up for an MSTP just to get med school paid for. So its not that they would feel trapped, its that they are don't mind taking advantage of the system.