Best PM&R Programs in New York State?

[medgirl89]

Hello everyone!

I'm a 4th year med student applying for PM&R programs on the East Coast this year, and I wanted to hear your opinions of the programs in New York state (including NYC). Which ones are the best and which ones should I skip? Which ones are the most competitive?

Living in New York City isn't my first choice on the East Coast, but I don't want to miss out on any truly great programs there.

From reading older threads, it seems like some good programs to consider are New York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia and Cornell Campus) Program and Stony Brook...?

I'd love to live in a suburban area, so Stony Brook (Long Island) definitely seems like a great place to check out.

Thanks in advance!

Update: I'm submitting my application as early as possible, which is tomorrow morning, so I've decided on Stony Brook, U of Rochester, NYU (Rusk), and New York Presbyterian. Let me know if there's a great program I've missed and I may add it to the application later. Thanks!

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[j4pac]

Kessler and JFK are both excellent...not NY...but close enough

 

[RangerBob]

Another vote for Kessler.

I don't know too much about the other programs in NYC -- I haven't heard much good or bad, other than there are a few programs to stay away from (not sure which ones). But that doesn't really say much considering how many programs NYC has (more than the state of CA--of which there are some programs to avoid as well unless location is your primary concern).

 

[medgirl89]

Thank you both! I definitely added Kessler and JFK to my list, and I'd much rather live in New Jersey than New York City.
I guess I will think of the four New York programs as backups...

 

[Baritonebass]

Mt Sinai in the upper east side and Einstein should be on you list as well if NY area is your goal remember everyone from NY wants to stay in NY and everyone not in NY wants to go to NY, Cali and Miami.

 

[j4pac]

If you don't want to live in NYC...don't apply there. There are tons of good (and likely better) options elsewhere. You have to at least consider cost of living. For example...Stony Brook had the highest income of all of the sites I applied...but when I calculated cost of living I discovered that it would be difficult to survive with a family of five in Northport, NY on $60-65K per year. NYC is much of the same. There is more affordable housing in NJ...with more reputable programs. The Midwest is littered with very strong programs....all with low cost of living.

 

[medgirl89]

Thanks for the input!

 

[ampaphb]

If you don't want to live in NYC...don't apply there. There are tons of good (and likely better) options elsewhere. You have to at least consider cost of living. For example...Stony Brook had the highest income of all of the sites I applied...but when I calculated cost of living I discovered that it would be difficult to survive with a family of five in Northport, NY on $60-65K per year. NYC is much of the same. There is more affordable housing in NJ...with more reputable programs. The Midwest is littered with very strong programs....all with low cost of living.

Completely the wrong approach. You need to take a long term view. Do u want to live in NY when you are through with training? Then the connections you make doing a local residency will be invaluable, and well worth the extra money you had to lay out for rent during training. Do u want to be close to family? Have an affinity for the beach, great pizza, Broadway, and two to three pro sports teams in every major sport?

If you are happier, do well, and get a more competitive fellowship, how much more will you make during the course of your 50 yr carrier?

 

[j4pac]

Completely the wrong approach. You need to take a long term view. Do u want to live in NY when you are through with training? Then the connections you make doing a local residency will be invaluable, and well worth the extra money you had to lay out for rent during training. Do u want to be close to family? Have an affinity for the beach, great pizza, Broadway, and two to three pro sports teams in every major sport?

If you are happier, do well, and get a more competitive fellowship, how much more will you make during the course of your 50 yr carrier?

I understand your point...go to residency for the education.

She doesn't want to go to NY. She said that in one of her first few threads. If she is hesitant to do residency training there I'm willing to bet that she doesn't have any future plans of practicing in the big apple.

I don't see how there is a correlation between doing a residency in NY and getting a better practice or fellowship. None of the big six residencies are in NY. The cost of living in NY is suffocating. I would wager that worrying about putting food on the table could be a distraction for a resident...or at least for me it would. I'm not trying to dump on NY...and I know plenty of people who love the place and got quality PM&R educations there...but the OP seemingly was looking for reasons to not apply there. There are tons of good (if not better) programs elsewhere that will set you up well for employment and fellowship.

 

[Baritonebass]

I understand your point...go to residency for the education.

She doesn't want to go to NY. She said that in one of her first few threads. If she is hesitant to do residency training there I'm willing to bet that she doesn't have any future plans of practicing in the big apple.

I don't see how there is a correlation between doing a residency in NY and getting a better practice or fellowship. None of the big six residencies are in NY. The cost of living in NY is suffocating. I would wager that worrying about putting food on the table could be a distraction for a resident...or at least for me it would. I'm not trying to dump on NY...and I know plenty of people who love the place and got quality PM&R educations there...but the OP seemingly was looking for reasons to not apply there. There are tons of good (if not better) programs elsewhere that will set you up well for employment and fellowship.

She didn't ask about other programs she asked about New York programs if she wants a comparison she could ask for it. I would never advise applying to less programs when matching. Weighing all of those factors are something you do after your invited and interview at the number needed to match.

 

[j4pac]

She didn't ask about other programs she asked about New York programs if she wants a comparison she could ask for it. I would never advise applying to less programs when matching. Weighing all of those factors are something you do after your invited and interview at the number needed to match.

I guess I did get side tracked a bit. I agree that applicants should apply broadly. She should probably apply to all of the NY programs unless she has a very good reason not to (collocation issues, family, etc).

 

[diesel2101]

If you don't want to live in NYC...don't apply there. There are tons of good (and likely better) options elsewhere. You have to at least consider cost of living. For example...Stony Brook had the highest income of all of the sites I applied...but when I calculated cost of living I discovered that it would be difficult to survive with a family of five in Northport, NY on $60-65K per year. NYC is much of the same. There is more affordable housing in NJ...with more reputable programs. The Midwest is littered with very strong programs....all with low cost of living.

That's your problem right there! Northport is upper middle class, and a move of literally 20 minutes in any direction, particularly south, would find you in a much more affordable area.

 

[j4pac]

That's your problem right there! Northport is upper middle class, and a move of literally 20 minutes in any direction, particularly south, would find you in a much more affordable area.

Affordable is a relative term. And the cost of housing is only one small part of the high cost of living in NY. The cost of living was notable, but I ended up ranking and believe that I would have made it work in Stony Brook anyway. And don't get me wrong...Northport is beautiful and very livable for families.

Long Island is doable with a family...but NYC is a bit tougher. It would be next to impossible to find a suburban area while doing a residency in NYC. For people from NYC I am sure that it is no sweat...but for people who are not...it could be an enormous distraction. I have hard enough time herding my children like cattle in the morning living in a low traffic area. I didn't apply to any NYC programs...it just wasn't worth it for me and my family.

 

[SSdoc33]

Completely the wrong approach. You need to take a long term view. Do u want to live in NY when you are through with training? Then the connections you make doing a local residency will be invaluable, and well worth the extra money you had to lay out for rent during training. Do u want to be close to family? Have an affinity for the beach, great pizza, Broadway, and two to three pro sports teams in every major sport?

If you are happier, do well, and get a more competitive fellowship, how much more will you make during the course of your 50 yr carrier?

this would be great advice if there were any good programs in NYC.

kessler is good. columbia and sinai are passable. the rest are junk. FWIW, rochester and stony brook are nothing to write home about, either.

one of the bigger problems in our specialty is that the best training programs arent where you would expect them (houston/baylor is a great program, but houston? who goes to the south to become educated?) your real choice is: good program or program where i want to live. its difficult to have both.

 

[RUOkie]

one of the bigger problems in our specialty is that the best training programs arent where you would expect them (houston/baylor is a great program, but houston? who goes to the south to become educated?) .

The Texas Medical Center is the largest collection of hospitals on a single campus in the world (Texas Heart, Methodist, MD Anderson, Ben Taub, Memorial Hermann, TIRR). Who goes to Houston to receive medical education? CV surgeons, neurologists, Internal Medicine, Plastic and Reconstructive surgeons, Trauma, Oncology, Neurosurgery... (etc). There is no better place in the world for medical education than Houston.

In addition, the atmosphere amongst different medical specialties is collegial (Unlike what I experienced in the northeast).

Your comment reeks of Northeastern elitism.

Many people actually like living in Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Seattle, and even Minnesota.

 

[SSdoc33]

The Texas Medical Center is the largest collection of hospitals on a single campus in the world (Texas Heart, Methodist, MD Anderson, Ben Taub, Memorial Hermann, TIRR). Who goes to Houston to receive medical education? CV surgeons, neurologists, Internal Medicine, Plastic and Reconstructive surgeons, Trauma, Oncology, Neurosurgery... (etc). There is no better place in the world for medical education than Houston.

In addition, the atmosphere amongst different medical specialties is collegial (Unlike what I experienced in the northeast).

Your comment reeks of Northeastern elitism.

Many people actually like living in Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Seattle, and even Minnesota.

guilty as charged. i know you are from oklahoma. dont take it personally, but the south is not exactly bastion of intellectualism.

the physical size of medical campus has little to do with its quality.

"There is no better place in the world for medical education than Houston" is a pretty silly thing to say from an objective standpoint. honestly. boston, tel aviv, san francisco, mogadishu, just to name a few.

lets not forget that i listed TIRR as one of the top programs in the country anyway....

 

[j4pac]

guilty as charged. i know you are from oklahoma. dont take it personally, but the south is not exactly bastion of intellectualism.

the physical size of medical campus has little to do with its quality.

"There is no better place in the world for medical education than Houston" is a pretty silly thing to say from an objective standpoint. honestly. boston, tel aviv, san francisco, mogadishu, just to name a few.

lets not forget that i listed TIRR as one of the top programs in the country anyway....

Good point...the Northeast does seem to have the highly concentrated crime centers, for which rehabilitation is very important. Houston is the armpit of the south...sharing many characteristics with major cities from the northeast to tack on the smell of fuel and demoralizing heat/humidity.

 

[Kissmyabjj]

I think Stony Brook has a pretty solid program and it is unique in that you learn how to perform muscle biopsies. The inpatient unit is in a really nice area to live and not to outrageously expensive. It is also the big academic program on LI that has a contract with the VA. North Shore/LIJ has no VA exposure.

 

[SSdoc33]

I think Stony Brook has a pretty solid program and it is unique in that you learn how to perform muscle biopsies. The inpatient unit is in a really nice area to live and not to outrageously expensive. It is also the big academic program on LI that has a contract with the VA. North Shore/LIJ has no VA exposure.

muscle biopsies VA exposure are not exactly ringing endorsements of a program....

 

[SSdoc33]

muscle biopsies and VA exposure are not exactly ringing endorsements of a program....

 

[j4pac]

muscle biopsies VA exposure are not exactly ringing endorsements of a program....

You get to work with a MSK Radiologist while you get your biopsy exposure. I think that biggest benefit could come with experience in MSK ultrasound. It's something that just isn't standard curriculum at all programs...but it is absolutely a tool that I would want in my tool bag considering the direction of outpatient PM&R. Without the know-how of MSK Ultrasound, you really take tons of potential treatment options off the table, including regenerative therapies.

I think that the benefit of VA exposure is that you generally have patients who are very willing to be evaluated by residents. For that reason, I would imagine that the EMG and outpatient exposure is pretty strong. Stony Brook has a rep of being a quality outpatient PM&R program.

I had two concerns about the program on my visit last year. 1) Inpatient exposure did not look great. Very small. 2) only got the chance to meet one resident during my visit. I saw that as a potential red flag...enough for me to drop the program on my list. But the outpatient exposure wasn't a concern at all.

 

[Kissmyabjj]

muscle biopsies VA exposure are not exactly ringing endorsements of a program....

Classy....

 

[Kissmyabjj]

The whole point of the post was to respond to someone who was looking for a NY program outside of the city. Since I spend my internship year on LI, I thought I would try to be helpful.

VA exposure is very important to me for exactly the reason j4pac mentioned. I was very disappointed to find out that at NS/LIJAlso you do not get to work within the VA system. I interviewed at 18 different programs last year and Stony Brook was the only program that had the opportunity to perform muscle biopsies, which I thought was pretty cool. I did forget to mention what j4pac stated, which was the opportunity to do these with an MSK radiologist.

 

[RangerBob]

I agree--VA exposure is really beneficial. It was actually one of my criteria in looking at programs. Aside from the patients being more willing for residents to evaluate them "sure, do whatever you gotta do doc," and being a great population to work with, the VA does rehab different (and very well), so it's an incredibly valuable learning experience.

The ancillary staff can sometimes leave a lot to be desired (our clinic nurses and all the therapists are fantastic, but some of the inpatient nurses and social workers can be a different story...). And CPRS could use a face-lift (and a search function for orders). But I love the VA and am considering working for one when I finish residency.

 

[SSdoc33]

The whole point of the post was to respond to someone who was looking for a NY program outside of the city. Since I spend my internship year on LI, I thought I would try to be helpful.

VA exposure is very important to me for exactly the reason j4pac mentioned. I was very disappointed to find out that at NS/LIJAlso you do not get to work within the VA system. I interviewed at 18 different programs last year and Stony Brook was the only program that had the opportunity to perform muscle biopsies, which I thought was pretty cool. I did forget to mention what j4pac stated, which was the opportunity to do these with an MSK radiologist.

exceptionally few physiatrists do muscle biopsies. time pretty much wasted. that is a very rare procedure.

ive worked in a few VAs, and i have not found it to be a great rehab experience.

an applicant should focus on the overall quality of a program (skill of faculty, quality of didactics, board pass rate, available jobs after training, inpt vs. outpatient, spine and u/s exposure) rather than esoteric minutiae like muscle biopsies.

im glad you like long island, though.

my overall point -- NY training programs outside of kessler are relatively weak.

 

[ampaphb]

Your overall point is poorly informed. Sinai, NY U, and Columbia/Cornell are well above average.

 

[SSdoc33]

Your overall point is poorly informed. Sinai, NY U, and Columbia/Cornell are well above average.

its not poorly informed. i am very familiar with the programs. in my OPINION, they are average at best. never are any of them mentioned among the top tier programs. at NYU in particular, you will have a hard time getting a good outpatient experience.

 

[Baritonebass]

its not poorly informed. i am very familiar with the programs. in my OPINION, they are average at best. never are any of them mentioned among the top tier programs. at NYU in particular, you will have a hard time getting a good outpatient experience.

False graduated NYU greater than 50% of my time was outpatient spent 10 month total outpatient at the Va alone. Additional 2 month sport and spine, 4 month EMG(outpatient service) with 2 month elective. Additionally inpatient rotations have clinic time. Good diagnostic ultrasound experience, Msk injection clinic still in the works and we matched 4 to sports last year including our own acgme fellowship. You can also get acupuncture training from tri-state college for free. Not average at all. Culturally all Manhattan programs are lean on procedures so a fellowship would be required for spine. My. Sinai, Cornell, NYU, and Monte will give you a good foundation for u/s that you can improve in practice. I'll say it again when applying consider them all then once blessed with lots of interviews you can be picky.

 

[SSdoc33]

False graduated NYU greater than 50% of my time was outpatient spent 10 month total outpatient at the Va alone. Additional 2 month sport and spine, 4 month EMG(outpatient service) with 2 month elective. Additionally inpatient rotations have clinic time. Good diagnostic ultrasound experience, Msk injection clinic still in the works and we matched 4 to sports last year including our own acgme fellowship. You can also get acupuncture training from tri-state college for free. Not average at all. Culturally all Manhattan programs are lean on procedures so a fellowship would be required for spine. My. Sinai, Cornell, NYU, and Monte will give you a good foundation for u/s that you can improve in practice. I'll say it again when applying consider them all then once blessed with lots of interviews you can be picky.

if all the programs are good.... which ones are bad? all of these threads are all sunshine and lollipops. the fact is that quality training programs in PMR are few and far between. Kessler is the only one on the map. sorry

 

[Baritonebass]

Didn't say all... I left off at least 3 programs NY. Also outpatient experience is only part of the evaluation. I agree Kessler is better academically but they come to hang out with us cause living in NJ sucks. Family, living situation and quality of program all play a role in the choice my point if you are geographically limited you could do worse than those programs.i can only think of six programs in the country better those programs in Manhattan and NJ so I don't get your crusade against NYC programs. Considering all the programs I named are more or less Ranked.

 

[SSdoc33]

Didn't say all... I left off at least 3 programs NY. Also outpatient experience is only part of the evaluation. I agree Kessler is better academically but they come to hang out with us cause living in NJ sucks. Family, living situation and quality of program all play a role in the choice my point if you are geographically limited you could do worse than those programs.i can only think of six programs in the country better those programs in Manhattan and NJ so I don't get your crusade against NYC programs. Considering all the programs I named are more or less Ranked.

Only 6 programs better than NYU, Sinai, Einstein, and Cornell/columbia? you must be joking

of course, living in manhattan is generally more desireable than, say, rochester minnesota. we are talking about the quality of the training programs, not where to get the best slice of pizza.

its not a crusade. its honestly.

 

[ampaphb]

SSdoc33, you keep moving the goalposts. So which is it? Are new York programs "junk"? "relatively weak"? "average at best"? Or, as your last post seems to indicate, not as good as one of the top 5 in the nation?

We all acknowledge Kessler is the best in the area by a wide margin. But in a ranking of all the PM&R training programs in the nation, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Mt. Sinai, Cornell, and NYU would be above the 50th percentile.

 

[medgirl89]

Hey guys! Original poster here...I am actually trying to trade my interview date at the U of Rochester with someone. I'm supposed to be there Dec 19...does anyone have an earlier or later interview date they wouldn't mind trading? I know Rochester is interviewing on Dec 4 and 18 but I can't do those dates either unfortunately...