Best schools for specializing? Not sure if I should do DO or MD.

[motz]

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I've noticed some DO schools have very few students specializing, and this worries me a bit. Not sure if this is because DO students like primary care more, or if the schools don't have elective rotations for certain specialties.

UNECOM, for instance, had only 1 radiology match. Drexel had 19. UNECOM had 3 anesthesiology matches, Drexel had 18. Ophthalmology, 3 vs. 8. Dermatology, 0 vs. 6. Surgery, 6 vs. 21. Drexel has more students in each class (1.5 to every 1 at UNECOM).

Should I bother applying to schools that focus that much on primary care, or even look at the match lists since it depends on students' preferences? Are students' preferences shaped by the specialties they are exposed to the most?

I like the idea of being a primary care physician now (HIV/ID, psychiatry), but I really like some specialties, too. Should I apply to MD schools only? I really like OMM, actually, since I had it done on me at a pre-med conference, but I'm not sure if applying to only 3-4 DO schools that have a lot of students specializing is a very good strategy for getting into medical school, especially since my stats are borderline (3.55, 31, CA resident).

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

UNECOM really pushes rural primary care in Maine (because of a lack of physicians in that area)... its like in their heading on their website. So UNECOM is not necessarily a good example if you are comparing...

Some schools produce more specialists, some are absolutely more directed towards making primary care physicians. It is their "mission." This is either because of the types of students that apply to these schools WANT to go primary care (ie student preference, as you mentioned), or because there is not quite as extensive clinical sites catering to certain rarer specialties, in comparison to MD schools. This tends to especially be true at the more rural schools. But then again, it is definitely not all up to the school. A lot of it is up to YOU. WVSOM for instance is a very very rural school, yet it has produced the second highest amount of Neurosurgeons of all the DO schools (PCOM being number 1). So what does that mean? It is very much up to the individual to do the hard work pre-clinical years, and do the leg work (ie traveling) during clinical years.

If you are really interested in specialties then apply to some of the schools closer to cities. For example CCOM, PCOM, DMU, KCUMB, NOVA, ROWAN tend to match in more specialties compared to their more rural counterparts. This is more or less because they have the larger healthcare infrastructure to provide those types of specialties. But just be aware that pretty much any school you go to, if its a DO school, it will have some semblance of primary care and/or rural mission. And also be aware that regardless of MD or DO, you will have to kill it in your boards to go into a specialty (if you look at a lot of MD schools, a huge portion definitely go into primary care fields as well).

Now for the question of "whether you should bother applying to schools that focus on primary care?" That is 100% up to you... No one could tell you otherwise... If you KNOW to the depths of your soul that you wont be fulfilled unless you are a specialist of some kind, then sure, going to a DO school closer to a city or an MD school, would be more beneficial to your goals. If you are still sort of figuring it out and could see yourself going primary care if the specialty thing doesnt work, then maybe anywhere is fine. Realistically almost every school will have the opportunities to do whatever. Its up to you to answer that question.

As a CA resident why not go western or some of the schools in Arizona? They definitely have specialty options from those schools...

 

[el_duderino]

It's my understanding that MD will give you a better shot at pretty much every specialty.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

It's my understanding that MD will give you a better shot at pretty much every specialty.

^
As of right now, definitely. To the OP I would suggest to apply to both MD and DO and see what happens. The recent GME merger is going to leave a lot of fuzzy areas for residencies (something I DO NOT thing we should discuss since it is discussed heavily elsewhere). But as of right now, MD is easier for specialties.

 

[drhouse107]

I've noticed some DO schools have very few students specializing, and this worries me a bit. Not sure if this is because DO students like primary care more, or if the schools don't have elective rotations for certain specialties.

UNECOM, for instance, had only 1 radiology match. Drexel had 19. UNECOM had 3 anesthesiology matches, Drexel had 18. Ophthalmology, 3 vs. 8. Dermatology, 0 vs. 6. Surgery, 6 vs. 21. Drexel has more students in each class (1.5 to every 1 at UNECOM).

Should I bother applying to schools that focus that much on primary care, or even look at the match lists since it depends on students' preferences? Are students' preferences shaped by the specialties they are exposed to the most?

I like the idea of being a primary care physician now (HIV/ID, psychiatry), but I really like some specialties, too. Should I apply to MD schools only? I really like OMM, actually, since I had it done on me at a pre-med conference, but I'm not sure if applying to only 3-4 DO schools that have a lot of students specializing is a very good strategy for getting into medical school, especially since my stats are borderline (3.55, 31, CA resident).

I personally know a few UNECOM grads who do radiology now...if you are determined to do your specialty, it can be done...

 

[el_duderino]

OP with your stats you should apply both MD and DO.

 

[Mad Jack]

MD will be better if you want to specialize. UNECOM largely selects for primary care though, for the record. They are very big on PCP focused primaries in student selection. You can rotate through whatever specialties you want though.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Why do these threads keep repeating themselves? Want it easier to specialize? Go MD. Have no other option, go DO. It's simple as that.

 

[el_duderino]

Why do these threads keep repeating themselves? Want it easier to specialize? Go MD. Have no other option, go DO. It's simple as that.

At the risk of throwing this thread to the wolves, I think the bolded portion is why DO programs will retain their current stigma as long as the degree exists. DO programs are, for the most part, where people who couldn't make it to an MD program end up.

 

[motz]

I will be applying to Western, and did an entire tour day there. They seemed to be open to students specializing, almost outright endorsing it, though they did remind us DOs had a philosophy about preventive care and primary care, which made me a bit hesitant. A few other schools that would be awesome are CCOM, AZCOM, and PCOM, but I questioned whether I'd be a good fit for a philosophy that emphasized specialties I wasn't dead set on. I like ID now (after shadowing a doctor), but what about the future?

Honestly, I just like outpatient care the most (surgery the least so far), since you get to know the patients better and there's a sense of continuity of care. The allergy doctor (I think it's IM sub-specialty, so unsure if it's primary care or not?) and ophthalmologist saw the same patients regularly, for instance. It just feels a bit dishonest to apply to schools that have a mission of emphasizing rural, primary care doctors when I'm not sure of what specialty I want to do, and would rather live in an urban/suburban place.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

At the risk of throwing this thread to the wolves, I think the bolded portion is why DO programs will retain their current stigma as long as the degree exists. DO programs are, for the most part, where people who couldn't make it to an MD program end up.

This might be true to a certain extent there are many other reasons to go do:

1) a passion for primary care
2) you want to learn omm
3)You happen to like a specific school
4) Your parents are DOs (I spoke to a physician who turned down vanderbilt med and went DO) ended up in a very competitive specialty and so did his wife (also a DO)
5) Maybe you were in a medical program
6) Maybe you just felt it was a better fit for you

Also this thread is insane it is talked about all the time. If you want to specialize going DO you can. You might have to work harder but its not like it's going to be easy at MD. I have personally met many DOs in some of the most competitive specialties. Everyone please stop making these threads we get it.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I will be applying to Western, and did an entire tour day there. They seemed to be open to students specializing, almost outright endorsing it, though they did remind us DOs had a philosophy about preventive care and primary care, which made me a bit hesitant. A few other schools that would be awesome are CCOM, AZCOM, and PCOM, but I questioned whether I'd be a good fit for a philosophy that emphasized specialties I wasn't dead set on. I like ID now (after shadowing a doctor), but what about the future?

Honestly, I just like outpatient care the most (surgery the least so far), since you get to know the patients better and there's a sense of continuity of care. The allergy doctor (I think it's IM sub-specialty, so unsure if it's primary care or not?) and ophthalmologist saw the same patients regularly, for instance. It just feels a bit dishonest to apply to schools that have a mission of emphasizing rural, primary care doctors when I'm not sure of what specialty I want to do, and would rather live in an urban/suburban place.

Honestly, this thread is annoying me. WE GET IT. You want to go MD. This is honestly trolling at this point. We all know you would take MD in a second and there is no point to this thread. The thread title says not sure if I should go DO or MD but in actuality you are sure you just want to trash DOs. Apply and see where/if you get in.

 

[DrEnderW]

 

[withoutlyrics]

Look at which DO schools have associated residencies in the specialties you listed. PCOM, NYCOM, NSU come mind. Always helps to have a home program.

Across the board, MD students have less difficulty matching into ACGME programs, so MD would be your best bet.

ETA: Cast a wide net, then be hopeful to have a choice to go to the best program that meets your needs. You don't need to justify anything to anyone.

You should be researching (if you haven't already) schools that applicants like you (on the cusp CA applicants) go to. If you haven't already submitted your AMCAS, DO SO!!!

 

[motz]

No need to get all defensive, dude. I am just wondering if certain schools select for people who want to do a certain field, because they are set up for those students to succeed, if there is a big disadvantage for students who aren't certain about doing a specific field. Also worried about the application process, since many schools favor students who will be doctors in rural areas, and will give them priority over me. I'm not sure how I'm trashing a degree, or even judging its value.

It's like if a student who might want to major in English is wondering whether she would do best at a school with a famous engineering program or a school that isn't really famous for a particular program.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

No need to get all defensive, dude. I am just wondering if certain schools select for people who want to do a certain field, because they are set up for those students to succeed, if there is a big disadvantage for students who aren't certain about doing a specific field. Also worried about the application process, since many schools favor students who will be doctors in rural areas, and will give them priority over me. I'm not sure how I'm trashing a degree, or even judging its value.

It's like if a student who might want to major in English is wondering whether she would do best at a school with a famous engineering program or a school that isn't really famous for a particular program.

You know the answers to your questions or if you truly don't you could search it. This has been talked about many times before.


I will help you though because I'm so nice (and hate DO trashing)


Here is some data (Do left percentage MD right percentage):

Table 4-3. U.S. MD vs. DO Residency Match Percentages by
Specialty (2011)
Specialty DO Graduates U.S. MD
Graduates
Family Medicine 19.51% 7.39%
Pediatrics 8.14% 10.04%
General Internal
Medicine
18.66% 16.7%
Emergency
Medicine
11.61% 7.25%
Obstetrics and
Gynecology
5.52% 5.07%
Psychiatry 4.03% 3.65%
Diagnostic
Radiology
2.53% 5.04%
Anesthesiology 4.26% 6.26%
Orthopedic Surgery 2.53% 3.53%
Dermatology 0.71% 1.76%
Neurological
Surgery
0.32% 0.99%


This should answer your question and show being a DO isn't so bad. /endthread

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Awesome post

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

At the risk of throwing this thread to the wolves, I think the bolded portion is why DO programs will retain their current stigma as long as the degree exists. DO programs are, for the most part, where people who couldn't make it to an MD program end up.

I don't know about "will retain." I just know they currently do. It's entirely possible we end up in a situation where MD/DO will be like DDS/DMD if those of us that join the Osteopathic ranks keep breaking barriers.

 

[motz]

I think most people are unsure of it, like me, because DO average GPAs and MCATs are pretty similar to many MD schools. Nobody thinks students who go to state MD schools only go there because they couldn't get into Harvard, though it might be the case that most would have attended Harvard if given the choice. The stigma isn't there. I don't think DOs will be seen similarly simply because the philosophy is emphasized so strongly, but to most of my family, there is a bigger difference image-wise between a surgeon vs. a neurosurgeon, a psychiatrist vs. a family doctor, neurosurgeon and family doctor being "better" than the other. Most of the patients I talked to at the hospital cared about the doctor's age (as a signifier of a good doctor) than anything else.

And yes, I searched threads, but I was conflicted since many posts tell me about the DO philosophy and emphasis on primary care, and others tell me you can do any specialty you want. UNECOM turned out to be a bad comparison, but I picked it since it had similar numbers to Drexel stats-wise.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I don't know about "will retain." I just know they currently do. It's entirely possible we end up in a situation where MD/DO will be like DDS/DMD if those of us that join the Osteopathic ranks keep breaking barriers.

Great comparison. I truly believe do/md is becoming like dmd/dds

@motz

GTFO you picked UNECOM because it is easier to bash DOs that way. If you wanted a fairer comparison you would have picked PCOM and Drexel since they closely located and have similar stats. Instead you picked a DO school that is in a rural area to trash DOs (supporting your point a DO can't get a good residency). I'm seriously done with you.

 

[motz]

You just implied FM/IM residencies aren't good, that rural locations aren't good, that UNECOM is an inherently weaker school because of its match list.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia: "Psychological projection is the act or technique of defending oneself against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in oneself, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude."

I hope my future classmates and colleagues aren't bullies, and are less judgmental and hostile.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

GTFO you picked UNECOM because it is easier to bash DOs that way. If you wanted a fairer comparison you would have picked PCOM and Drexel since they closely located and have similar stats. Instead you picked a DO school that is in a rural area to trash DOs (supporting your point a DO can't get a good residency). I'm seriously done with you.

UNECOM, for instance, had only 1 radiology match. Drexel had 19. UNECOM had 3 anesthesiology matches, Drexel had 18. Ophthalmology, 3 vs. 8. Dermatology, 0 vs. 6. Surgery, 6 vs. 21. Drexel has more students in each class (1.5 to every 1 at UNECOM).

Lets try it with PCOM for the LOLz:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/match-list-2014.1061344/page-9#post-15222231
http://webcampus.drexelmed.edu/cdc/2013-MatchList.asp

Radiology: 3 (PCOM) vs. 13 (Drexel)
Anesthesiology: 9 vs 17
Ophthalmology: 2 vs 8
Dermatology: 0 vs 5
Emergency: 20 vs 20
Neurosurgery: 2 vs 4
Surgery: 10 vs 15
ENT: 1 vs 3
Urology: 4 vs 2

Class sizes are similar. Number of people interested in primary care as DO could potentially be greater, but for sakes of the argument lets say they all had the same career ideas. Conclusion: Yes, being a DO will make it harder, but no evidence to say impossible.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You just implied FM/IM residencies aren't good, that rural locations aren't good, that UNECOM is an inherently weaker school because of its match list.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia: "Psychological projection is the act or technique of defending oneself against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in oneself, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude."

I hope my future classmates and colleagues aren't bullies, and are less judgmental and hostile.

FM/IM are less competitive residencies then other residencies (like surgery) . That being said I'm looking to go into internal medicine. They are important fields but no one will deny that they are less competitive then other specialities. There is nothing wrong in admitting that.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Lets try it with PCOM for the LOLz:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/match-list-2014.1061344/page-9#post-15222231
http://webcampus.drexelmed.edu/cdc/2013-MatchList.asp

Radiology: 3 (PCOM) vs. 13 (Drexel)
Anesthesiology: 9 vs 17
Ophthalmology: 2 vs 8
Dermatology: 0 vs 5
Emergency: 20 vs 20
Neurosurgery: 2 vs 4
Surgery: 10 vs 15
ENT: 1 vs 3
Urology: 4 vs 2

Class sizes are similar. Number of people interested in primary care as DO could potentially be greater, but for sakes of the argument lets say they all had the same career ideas. Conclusion: Yes, being a DO will make it harder, but no evidence to say impossible.

Looks pretty comparable to me... Clearly if you want it you can get it.

 

[csx]

Apply only MD unless you feel strongly about DO's and their philosophy.

 

[Radon XP]

Is EM one of the specialties that is super hard for DO's to get into?

 

[el_duderino]

Definitely not.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Is EM one of the specialties that is super hard for DO's to get into?

look at the stats above, there is actually a higher percentage of DOs matching EM than MDs matching EM.

 

[radkat101]

look at the stats above, there is actually a higher percentage of DOs matching EM than MDs matching EM.

Yeah, TCOM this year had more EM matches than a couple of our state MD schools, and at good programs. There was probably just more interest in it. They also have a rural medicine program (mainly primary care) that a good portion of the class is a part of. I'm not denying that you see more impressive matches from the MD schools, but if you want to specialize, you shouldn't have a problem in most fields.

 

[Goro]

My grads going into competitive specialites, but the majority come ot our school self-selecting for Primary care. this is common at DO schools.

Do not assume that just because you have an MD degree that you can waltz into a Peds Oncology residency.

I've noticed some DO schools have very few students specializing, and this worries me a bit. Not sure if this is because DO students like primary care more, or if the schools don't have elective rotations for certain specialties.

UNECOM, for instance, had only 1 radiology match. Drexel had 19. UNECOM had 3 anesthesiology matches, Drexel had 18. Ophthalmology, 3 vs. 8. Dermatology, 0 vs. 6. Surgery, 6 vs. 21. Drexel has more students in each class (1.5 to every 1 at UNECOM).

Should I bother applying to schools that focus that much on primary care, or even look at the match lists since it depends on students' preferences? Are students' preferences shaped by the specialties they are exposed to the most?

I like the idea of being a primary care physician now (HIV/ID, psychiatry), but I really like some specialties, too. Should I apply to MD schools only? I really like OMM, actually, since I had it done on me at a pre-med conference, but I'm not sure if applying to only 3-4 DO schools that have a lot of students specializing is a very good strategy for getting into medical school, especially since my stats are borderline (3.55, 31, CA resident).

 

[JGimpel]

Ahh, been a while since I enjoyed a good MD vs. DO thread... The politics keep getting worse between the AMA and the AOA over residencies that I would go MD if you want to go to an MD residency and go DO if you want to go to a DO residency. Yeah, everyone sends out memos that things are going to be much better and the merger is going to work out but there are so many people pissed off at the DO world that I would avoid it for that reason, no matter what you want to do. It's true that nobody cares once you're out of residency unless you want to go into MD academics, but there are so many times where you'll be all but forced into DO primary care now, including the way the COMLEX is designed and graded, that you won't have as many choices for what you want to do. It looks like you want to go to an MD school anyways, so go for it.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Ahh, been a while since I enjoyed a good MD vs. DO thread... The politics keep getting worse between the AMA and the AOA over residencies that I would go MD if you want to go to an MD residency and go DO if you want to go to a DO residency. Yeah, everyone sends out memos that things are going to be much better and the merger is going to work out but there are so many people pissed off at the DO world that I would avoid it for that reason, no matter what you want to do. It's true that nobody cares once you're out of residency unless you want to go into MD academics, but there are so many times where you'll be all but forced into DO primary care now, including the way the COMLEX is designed and graded, that you won't have as many choices for what you want to do. It looks like you want to go to an MD school anyways, so go for it.

give links or it didn't happen

I have only heard from attendings that it is a good thing, I have yet to meet someone who is truly against it (that's not a pre-med).





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[JGimpel]

give links or it didn't happen

I have only heard from attendings that it is a good thing, I have yet to meet someone who is truly against it (that's not a pre-med).





Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

Links to what? I've always been for the merger and have high hopes that it will eventually work out, it's the attitudes on the DO side that will continue to plague us. It has absolutely nothing to do with the medicine or acting in the best interests of patient care. You have to realize that our leadership is not acting on the behalf of either of these and the old guard will maintain the status quo for as long as they can, then you can make a truly informed decision. Check out some other parts of the site that have other people with experience weighing in before you make that decision.

I wish you all the best.