Other than the top schools (Bryn Mawr, Goucher, Mills, Scripps, Tufts) what are some programs anyone would recommend? Finances and geographical location are a non-issue. Willing to relocate wherever. I am looking for programs with very strong advising and small class sizes.
Best Stuctured Postbac Premed Programs
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How is your GPA? Big name and linked programs are a lot less important for non trads who have a solid GPA and just need the pre reqs. If your GPA is solid, I would recommend a DIY post Bach, possibly as a second degree seeking student, at any cost effective and convenient university. Save your money and/or debt for med school, lol.
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I thought the Penn post-bac was pretty structured though the support at the time I was there wasn't all that great and their administration was up in the air but that was over 5 years ago. The great thing about Penn is that you have access to opportunities at their hospitals which offers you tuition reimbursement which is how I went through the program with minimal debt and started without any debt once I hit med school. And it's Penn so you have access to a ton of classes! My only issue is that because most post-bac classes are held at night, the faculty can be hit or miss.
Harvard Extension is big name, well-structured, and not ridiculously expensive. I found their classes to be top notch, with lots of support from teachers and TAs. OChem especially was very well-taught. The premed community is active and supportive. If you want to go somewhere, this is the place. The downside is the cost of living in the area, plus the ridiculous cost of their summer courses. However, you could do your humanities courses at University of Massachusetts - Boston over the summer and do the science courses through Harvard. There's my plug for the program.
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I was thinking about Doing upenns post bac premed program... I only need 4 more classes physics 1&2 and organic chem 1&2 I wa going to take then at a cc to save money but keep thinking I should do their program.... Hmmmm
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Wouldn't touch the Columbia program with a 10 foot pole. All the alumni of it I know agree with me -- we had terrible advising, they sent out committee letters so late for many of us that we had to reapply the next year (and they still sent them late-ish), and I've met multiple people whose committee letter they botched (wrong name, etc.).
They also make Bio a weed out class graded harshly like Orgo, and you're only graded against other post baccs. It makes it unnecessarily hard for bright people to get a decent gpa when all the post baccs are bright & hard working . . . I disagree with curves in this context. They then write luke warm committee letters if you're not in the top, which by nature of curves, most people won't be. Everybody knows this, so the environment is unnecessarily uncomfortable (people do collaborate but it is not the same as a truly collaborative environ).
They also do accept people who have no business on this path, take their money while they strugggle through the first semester or two, and then either fail them out (now in debt) or refuse to support them with a committee letter. We could identify these people on day 1, which means the program could, too...I hate that I supported an unethical program that allowed people w no chance of success to take on their ridiculous debt.
Class sizes don't facilitate getting LORs, so I ended up paying to take extra classes (some at SUNY Downstate) to get close enough for my instructor to recognize me.
Falsifying success rates...we'd see the published data in their promo materials, and realize the # of us reapplicants sitting there in disbelief made the numbers factually impossible (I'm sure they justify it w some sort of running tally, but many reapplicants were successful after applying without the committee letter, so they know nothing of the disposition of our apps).
<sigh>
I'm sure my feelings are clear. Lest you think I'm disgruntled . . . I went on to a good med school and a very well regarded residency in my chosen field. There are people who were more successful than I was after that place, but too many who weren't, and who I feel would have fared better (in hindsight) w a DIY postbacc. The thing is, there's no reason that any of us in particular should have been singled out to be screwed by late committee letters, etc., so it's just too random, and you can't position yourself to be sure you're one of the several who do extremely well out of that program -- it's an unnecessary gamble when there are places with a different MO.
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Yeah that was the problem several years ago and not sure they have resolved it. I have heard great things about Bryn Mawr - incredibly structured and rigid but great matriculation with a lot of support.
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So if they still have the same physics teacher, he's crap. He's a Villanova guy that just sucks I think but I also really struggled with Physics because I just didn't get it. On the other hand, O-Chem which people really struggled with, I rocked. I also got myself a really good O-Chem tutor which made all the difference!
I would love to attend Bryn Mawr's program, I am just unsure with my stats that I could get in. I was looking for some back-up options if I don't get into the top programs that I listed originally + JHU.
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So I know when I applied to BM, the reason they didn't take me is because I didn't have the relevant ECs, not the grades. The post-bacs know that you are there to boost up your stats so unless you have super low stats, I would take a shot and just apply to those that you think would be good for you. I had NO science background/ECs whatsoever when I applied and I got into a lot of good programs.
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I just finished up the Columbia Postbac program in May 2014. I agree with a few of the points here, but given this post was made in 2012 when Plecopotamus was a resident, there has certainly been enough time for the program to change.
I interviewed at several postbac programs on the East Coast, but settled on Columbia because my wife had a job in NYC and we couldn't move. The top programs pick the best students who will get into medical school no matter where they go. Absolutely nothing wrong with this. It reduces the risk of lower matriculation rates and they are able to advertise the amazing med schools all their students go to. Columbia is different, it's definitely perceived to be a step-down from top tier and has a much larger class. This means they admit a broader range of students, and thus have lower matriculation rates into medical school. That's just the nature of the beast when everyone in the program doesn't have a 4.o from Harvard with three year of clinical research experience. I would hardly describe Columbia's admission's policy as predatory, though. They provide the opportunity for students to prove themselves in the sciences, albeit at a high cost. Make no mistake about it, postbac programs offer virtually no student aid other than loans (if you can call that aid). They are money makers for pretty much all private schools that offer them. At the end of the day applicants are responsible for their own decisions, and need to know if they are ready for the rigors of a postbac curriculum.
Like several other private schools, you're pretty much guaranteed a B or above in most classes if you apply yourself (one of my professors straight out admitted this in class), so I don't think the curves are that terrible. People sometimes complain that a class is meant to weed out students, but what do you think traditional pre-med students went though? I hate the idea that a school should hold a student's hand through a program and give him/her all A's just because they paid tuition. Yea, some of the classes take a lot of time and effort to do well in, but they should!
Some of the professors weren't amazing, but at the end of they day they all got the job done and I learned exactly what I needed to know to do well on the MCAT. I will say my biology professor (the dreaded Dr. Mowshowitz) was one of the best lecturers I've ever had - she was fantastic at explaining difficult concepts. Her class was hard because it challenged students to approach biology in a different way. You couldn't just memorize material, you had to be able to apply it. Well that's how jobs in the real world work - you apply what you know to new situations, so it's best to get used to it as a student. In my opinion more classes should be taught in this manner.
I think the advising department has gotten a lot better in the past few years. Most complaints I heard about the advising boiled down to my peers being too lazy to look up information on their own. Yes, you can ask your adviser and then complain that they don't know the average MCAT score of students admitted to P&S in 2013, or you can spend two minutes on Google and figure it out yourself. The advisers here expect you to read your emails and pay attention to the deadlines they set. They expect you to do your research and know what the med school process involves. They expect you to work your ass off to do well in class if necessary. Ultimately, they expect you do act like an adult who is responsible for your own destiny. I hardly think that is too much to ask, but if you want your hand held there are probably better options out there.
I have been told numerous times during med school interviews what a great job my adviser did with my recommendation packet. It was submitted on time and without incident. The only people I heard complain about late letters were those who turned in their application materials weeks after the advising department's deadline. If that's the case, I hardly think you have the right to complain when your letter is a few weeks late.
Things certainly might have been different at Columbia 5-10 years ago, but I think they have made constant improvements to their program and a lot of complaints people had in the past just don't hold up anymore.
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This is a well-informed response coming from a Columbia post-bacc premed graduate especially when you said that the the admission policy of Columbia is predatory and the school let the students prove themselves in sciences. And I am closely drawn to pursue an application at Columbia however, I am a little skeptical about how they would consider my application when I come a from a university outside the US and does not have a competitive GPA (but within the required grade) and with no science researches but had some from my degree.So, what do you think my competency is? And in your experience, did you have classmates who were least likely to be accepted at Columbia's postbacc premed program?
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The added benefit of Harvard Extension is that you can work full time while doing it if you want to stretch it out a bit longer. That way you can get more experience before you apply. I would caution against spreading out the credits over too many institutions as this makes getting everything together nightmarish from what I've heard.
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I would second what RocketRyne said about Columbia. We just had our Medical School Fair and the deans of admission for NJMS, NYU, UVA and Weil Cornell were quick to point out that we are lucky to have the advisors that we do because they ensure our package is polished and ready to go before it is shipped. This echoes my experience thus far.
Yes, my advisor absolutely expects me to meet deadlines and do a little research before going to see him. For those that have never held a professional-level job, I can tell you that this is exactly how the real world works; no one holds your hand and you're expected to invest some time before you take time from others. That's just the expected standard.
Yes, Columbia is full of really smart kids and that makes the curve tough. None-the-less, about 1/3 of any science class with get an A- or A so it is doable. This is coming from a guy who had a 2.8 and a math degree the first go around 12 years ago. Also, unlike some other big name programs (Northwestern, I'm looking at you) Columbia doesn't treat it's post-bacs like second rate citizens by separating them from the rest of the student body and relegating them to night classes and such. Everyone is mixed in together so it's a true sampling of capability.
I have no idea how Columbia gets this reputation as a second rate post-bac program here on SDN. It just doesn't add up, unless you would consider Columbia University a second rate undergraduate institution. In that case, I'd point you to this year's US News and World Reports rankings. I don't know what else to say.
Yes, my advisor absolutely expects me to meet deadlines and do a little research before going to see him. For those that have never held a professional-level job, I can tell you that this is exactly how the real world works; no one holds your hand and you're expected to invest some time before you take time from others. That's just the expected standard.
Yes, Columbia is full of really smart kids and that makes the curve tough. None-the-less, about 1/3 of any science class with get an A- or A so it is doable. This is coming from a guy who had a 2.8 and a math degree the first go around 12 years ago. Also, unlike some other big name programs (Northwestern, I'm looking at you) Columbia doesn't treat it's post-bacs like second rate citizens by separating them from the rest of the student body and relegating them to night classes and such. Everyone is mixed in together so it's a true sampling of capability.
I have no idea how Columbia gets this reputation as a second rate post-bac program here on SDN. It just doesn't add up, unless you would consider Columbia University a second rate undergraduate institution. In that case, I'd point you to this year's US News and World Reports rankings. I don't know what else to say.
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the only useful measure of an expensive postbac is the percentage of grads who go straight into US MD schools. ranking of an entire institution doesn't make any difference at all in this decision.
not that i know what columbia's results are. but if i cared, i'd go look in SDN's postbac forum for that info.
not that i know what columbia's results are. but if i cared, i'd go look in SDN's postbac forum for that info.
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Reputation of the post-bacc program and the reputation of the undergrad are not necessarily related. Conflated the two is not a correct action. You will find the same to be true of medical schools as well.
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What Dr. Midlife has said is certainly true and he definitely has better perspective than I do. I didn't even consider cost so that is a great point. If you can get into one of those BM/Goucher programs that only takes ~30 students a year and has a near 100% success rate, I think it's a no brainer. Unfortunately, there is probably only 100 or so slots at those top programs across the country, so for all the rest of us that aren't top 100 national post-bac candidates, we had to look elsewhere. I would have definitely gone to BM or Goucher had I made the decision prior to their application deadline and been accepted (a long shot anyway).
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My apologies; I was simply following literary convention. If there's an indicator of sex on here I missed it. I meant no offense.
Question: I've been in the Air Force (currently an Officer) for almost a decade, and I've had to make that my #1 priority throughout the entirety of my undergrad career. I'm finally at a point where I can devote myself to medicine in the manner I've always wanted to and was wondering if you'd grant me some perspective. I have two main concerns:
1) at first glance, do my current stats warrant further education or am I screwed (barring MCAT score)/My terrible undergrad cumulative was a direct result of my service commitment. I was generally wondering if that holds any weight with adcoms.
2) should I pursue a masters of some sort...literally for material mastery before med school
Current Stats:
Tulane Undergrad Major (Neuroscience) GPA: 3.9
Tulane Undergraduate Cumulative GPA (at univ where deg was earned): 3.1
Emory Univ Undergrad Clinical Neurology Summer Internship GPA: 4.0
University of Louisiana at Lafayette GPA (roughly 50 earned credits...xferred): 3.7
Thanks a ton!
Question: I've been in the Air Force (currently an Officer) for almost a decade, and I've had to make that my #1 priority throughout the entirety of my undergrad career. I'm finally at a point where I can devote myself to medicine in the manner I've always wanted to and was wondering if you'd grant me some perspective. I have two main concerns:
1) at first glance, do my current stats warrant further education or am I screwed (barring MCAT score)/My terrible undergrad cumulative was a direct result of my service commitment. I was generally wondering if that holds any weight with adcoms.
2) should I pursue a masters of some sort...literally for material mastery before med school
Current Stats:
Tulane Undergrad Major (Neuroscience) GPA: 3.9
Tulane Undergraduate Cumulative GPA (at univ where deg was earned): 3.1
Emory Univ Undergrad Clinical Neurology Summer Internship GPA: 4.0
University of Louisiana at Lafayette GPA (roughly 50 earned credits...xferred): 3.7
Thanks a ton!
