Best Way Not To Get Military Residency!?!

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

rtmcad2319

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 3, 2004
Messages
520
Reaction score
0
Hello,
I will probably take a HSPS for 2-3 years w/ the Army. My only concern is that if I get into neurosurg. I would not want to be stuck for SEVEN years in the military. Good news is that there is only 1 neurosurg. residency spot in the Army that I'm aware of, so could I just do a rotation there and totally suck ass (so they don't rank me that high)? Any thoughts or comments? Is it hard to get a civilian waiver?

Thank you.

Members don't see this ad.
 
How about, if you don't want to be in the Army...don't join.
 
If you're already dreading having to serve in the military, DO NOT take the scholarship. And I say that personally as a very pro-military person.

You are right that the army only has one neurosurg residency... but applying for the military match you are REQUIRED to rank a minimum of 4-5 programs. So guess what? You don't rank at Walter Reed because you deliberatly did a crappy job, and you get put in a TRANSITIONAL INTERNSHIP for one year, and then sent out as a GMO popping pimples for your 4 year payback before you can even THINK about applying for another residency.

Forget about it.

Every year we hear about people who try to "game the system" to get a civilian deferment, and get screwed.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you are serious about neurosurgery, why on earth would you want to join the military? I was in your shoes (wanting to enter neurosurgery) going into HPSP, did not get a deferment for it and ended up spending 4 years as a GMO after a transitional internship. If I had it to do over again, I would have stayed a civilian and had more control over my future. You will become a NS only if the branch of the military you are in needs you to become one at that point in time based upon projected future needs.

If you are serious about NS, avoid the military. You do not need the scholarship money, as a NS you will earn more than enough to pay off any loans and still live very comfortably. But, do what you want...
 
rtmcad2319 said:
so could I just do a rotation there and totally suck ass (so they don't rank me that high)? Any thoughts or comments?
Thank you.

Rule 1 in life: NEVER try purposely to suck ass. It never works out to your benefit. Life is hard enough even when you're trying your best.
 
Globus P said:
Rule 1 in life: NEVER try purposely to suck ass. It never works out to your benefit. Life is hard enough even when you're trying your best.


Definitely dont purposely do bad. The only people I know who got FDs did school orders for all their At months. then in the Military match they put FD only. They were essentially an unknown entity to the military match. I would talk to the Neurosurgery specialty advisor as well.

But seriously if you havent signed up yet. DONT you will have much better options if you stay civilian.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Hello,
I will probably take a HSPS for 2-3 years w/ the Army. My only concern is that if I get into neurosurg. I would not want to be stuck for SEVEN years in the military. Good news is that there is only 1 neurosurg. residency spot in the Army that I'm aware of, so could I just do a rotation there and totally suck ass (so they don't rank me that high)? Any thoughts or comments? Is it hard to get a civilian waiver?

Thank you.

yep, gotta say that this sounds like a really bad idea.
 
colbgw02 said:
yep, gotta say that this sounds like a really bad idea.

i agree.

every once in awhile people play the system and win, but trust me, the percentages don't play out in the long run. if anything, you'd want to rock the ADT neurosurg rotation and play it straight, and convince them you're *so* good that a civilian residency would be a no-brainer. grease the wheels and maybe they'll let you go.

your stated strategy seems a little short sighted. if you do suck on your rotation, don't you think you may create a reputation for yourself that may be hard to get rid of come payback time? the military world, especially neurosurg, is a small one.

--your friendly neighborhood the house always wins caveman
 
One of my personal acquaintances (first assisted with) is currently the Chair/PD of NS at Bethesda. His pathway into military NS was by going the civilian residency route.

Another military NS I know did go through the program at Walter Reed and he was, until recently, the commander of an army community hospital without the ancillary surgical support to perform his specialty. Alot of training then wasted in my opinion.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Hello,
I will probably take a HSPS for 2-3 years w/ the Army. My only concern is that if I get into neurosurg. I would not want to be stuck for SEVEN years in the military. Good news is that there is only 1 neurosurg. residency spot in the Army that I'm aware of, so could I just do a rotation there and totally suck ass (so they don't rank me that high)? Any thoughts or comments? Is it hard to get a civilian waiver?

Thank you.

You can't be serious.

If you want neurosurgery anywhere, you had better work hard everywhere you go and hope that in the end you do well enough to get noticed somewhere. If you do not want a military residency in neurosurgery, then either don't go into the military at all (highest probability of avoiding that one Army spot you want to avoid) or tell them you would prefer a deferment for NS (and be good enough to get a civilian slot, O/W you become a GMO) or
avoid HPSP, match in NS and then consider whatever available post-medical-school affiliation programs are around at the time. Even if FAP is gone, something will replace it. You would also have an upper hand in negotiating assignment terms with no med school scholarship to repay.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Hello,
I will probably take a HSPS for 2-3 years w/ the Army. My only concern is that if I get into neurosurg. I would not want to be stuck for SEVEN years in the military. Good news is that there is only 1 neurosurg. residency spot in the Army that I'm aware of, so could I just do a rotation there and totally suck ass (so they don't rank me that high)? Any thoughts or comments? Is it hard to get a civilian waiver?

Thank you.


Don't even think about the military. It's not for you.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Is it hard to get a civilian waiver?

Yes, it is. The military doesn't need tons of neurosurgeons. You'll only get a civilian deferrment for neurosurg if they like you. Therefore, you can't do poorly.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I wouldn't be one to "try and play the game" about NOT getting a military residency b/c the small number of NS in the military and the need for GMO/FS and such are high so likely your plan will come out to 2-4 years of GMO time and then you can apply for NS after giving up an additional couple of years.

If you are a gamblin' man, you could try this, but chances are you will end up disgruntled... If NS is the ONLY thing you desire, then do it in the civilian world and you'll likely be much happier.
 
RichL025 said:
If you're already dreading having to serve in the military, DO NOT take the scholarship. And I say that personally as a very pro-military person.

You are right that the army only has one neurosurg residency... but applying for the military match you are REQUIRED to rank a minimum of 4-5 programs. So guess what? You don't rank at Walter Reed because you deliberatly did a crappy job, and you get put in a TRANSITIONAL INTERNSHIP for one year, and then sent out as a GMO popping pimples for your 4 year payback before you can even THINK about applying for another residency.

Forget about it.

Every year we hear about people who try to "game the system" to get a civilian deferment, and get screwed.

Ok, first off I want to serve in the military!! I just feel that this HPSP is misleading, due to this residency CRAP! I want to take a 2-3 scholarship, and then serve for 2-3 years. I'm sorry but that is what this scholarship is suppose to be a year for year deal! What I don't understand is that if I rank, say, 10-15 programs and Walter Reed doesn't rank/pick me why would I get stuck w/ a transitional internship and not just to a civilian residency that ranked me say, for example, my 3rd choice?
Is that what you must automatically do? If you don't match into the military residency for your respected field then you MUST do a transitional year in the military? Why then would you interview at any other programs? That just seems unrealistic.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
I want to take a 2-3 scholarship, and then serve for 2-3 years. I'm sorry but that is what this scholarship is suppose to be a year for year deal!

What I don't understand is that if I rank, say, 10-15 programs and Walter Reed doesn't rank/pick me why would I get stuck w/ a transitional internship and not just to a civilian residency that ranked me say, for example, my 3rd choice?

1 - It's not about what you want/need/think. When you sign on the dotted line, they own you.

2 - You only rank 5 military programs. I have a feeling that you don't understand how the military match thing works. I suggest that you read through the stickies before you proceed.

As far as getting a full deferral, there seem to be 3 ways of getting it
1 - Rotate with MTFs/MEDCENs, impress the attendings, give them a good reason for why you want to train in the civilian world
2 - Do in-school ADTs, then rank the best army program
3 - Complete, random luck
 
idq1i said:
1 - It's not about what you want/need/think. When you sign on the dotted line, they own you.

2 - You only rank 5 military programs. I have a feeling that you don't understand how the military match thing works. I suggest that you read through the stickies before you proceed.


OK. I agree, I'm lost. The military match is seperate from both the SF match and the regular civilian match?
 
rtmcad2319 said:
OK. I agree, I'm lost. The military match is seperate from both the SF match and the regular civilian match?

See my edit.

You apply to the Military match sometime in September. You rank 5 spots (CAN'T rank any civ programs!). If your field of interest has <5 spots, you'll have to rank transitional programs.

As the military match process is proceeding, you apply for the regular match. On Dec 15th, you find out if you matched with the army. If you did, you'd then withdraw from the regular match. If you didn't, you go on with the regular match.

In the past, ~ 85% of people matched with the army (across all specialties). Now, I think that the number is higher because while the number of residency spots stayed the same, the HPSP class has become smaller
 
rtmcad2319 said:
OK. I agree, I'm lost. The military match is seperate from both the SF match and the regular civilian match?

yes, but you still do ERAS and NRMP, although you must withdraw from NRMP if you match with the military. deadline for submission of materials for the military match is mid-october, to include your rank order list. match results are available middle of december. you are required to rank at least five military programs; if your chosen specialty doesn't have five programs, then you make up the difference with transitional year internship programs. so, if you didn't match with the army neurosurgery program, the overwhelming likelihood is that you'd end up doing an internship, then a GMO tour, serve your 2-3 years, get out, and do a civilian residency. keep in mind you're still several years away from all this, so the army could change its system at any point.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
What I don't understand is that if I rank, say, 10-15 programs and Walter Reed doesn't rank/pick me why would I get stuck w/ a transitional internship and not just to a civilian residency that ranked me say, for example, my 3rd choice?

The military only has a need for X number of neurosurgeons. So if you don't impress them, you won't be one of those "X" people who gets either a military residency or a deferrment for civilian residency. Your only hope of getting either one is to impress the military people. However, you can't just go for a civilian deferrment.
 
Mirror Form said:
The military only has a need for X number of neurosurgeons. So if you don't impress them, you won't be one of those "X" people who gets either a military residency or a deferrment for civilian residency. Your only hope of getting either one is to impress the military people. However, you can't just go for a civilian deferrment.

I understand what you are saying now. Those recruiters are really misleading and should make it clear that one could get really screwed by choosing a specialty that is either really comp. or not needed by the military. They make it seem as if it really doesn't matter. They also seem to make out as if they need doctors in all fields, with as many as they can get.

AND THANK U!
 
rtmcad2319 said:
I understand what you are saying now. Those recruiters are really misleading and should make it clear that one could get really screwed by choosing a specialty that is either really comp. or not needed by the military. They make it seem as if it really doesn't matter. They also seem to make out as if they need doctors in all fields, with as many as they can get.

AND THANK U!

You are correct on all points here.
 
Remember there are statistics, and damn statistics and lies (sic)

The military has any where from 85-90% claim of matching someone in their specialty, but it is somewhat misleading....

a "match" counts as anything on your list-- for instance if you ask for surgery/transitional and Radiology..... you may only match for surgery only and that is a match....

Doesn't matter they didn't match you for RADs or anesthesia or whatever you were applying for-- you are still considered a match....
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Ok, first off I want to serve in the military!!

Super, and I applaud your answer (it's really the only right one).

If you feel strongly that you want to do neurosurgery, I suggest you avoid the HPSP scholarship entirely, live off loans, match to a civilian residency. Then, after graduating, if you still wish to serve in the military, you can come in as a BC/BE neurosurgeon and they'd be glad to have you. Read the stickies on a program called FAP for more info - there is also a loan-repayment involved.

Trying to game the system is just a recipe for heartbreak.

Best of luck,
 
Does anyone know how long you have to "sign" once you have been accepted for the scholarship? And what do you sign: a contract, etc??

Thanx.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Does anyone know how long you have to "sign" once you have been accepted for the scholarship? And what do you sign: a contract, etc??

Thanx.

Yes, you do have to sign a legal contract. As I have mentioned in previous posts, which I will repeat again here for your benefit: Do not even think about signing a contract until your attorney has reviewed it and you have consulted with your attorney regarding it. It is an employment contract which will govern your practice as a physician, and will have a tremendous impact upon your future personal and professional life. It is more than worth it to have your attorney review it. Not doing so, is sadly, a very common mistake among prospective HPSP students.

Going further, do not sign any documents which obligate you to anything without first consulting your attorney.

Lastly, speaking as one who was in your shoes many years ago, if you have your heart set upon a career in neurological surgery, I strongly encourage you to postpone any decision concerning military service until after you have completed a civilian residency in neurological surgery. This approach will increase the likelihood of you realizing your dream. In other words, if you obligate yourself to the military now, you will decrease your opportunity to accomplish your goal, simply because your becoming a neurological surgeon would be entirely dependent upon the "needs of the military" at the time, and you have no way of projecting that. Certainly not now.
 
Ok, two things.

First, current Army policy is not to force someone into a residency they do not want to do. You are required to list your specialty of choice on your match form. If you are not selected into that specialty, you are supposed to get a civilian deferment. People are definately doing this. The army has deferred several peds applicants in the past few years. Now peds is a 3 year contract rather than a 1+2 like some. I'm not sure if they are still deferring for 1 year of internship and pulling you back in to do GMO.

Second, If you go and tank you ADT this could kill you in the civilian match. Program directors talk to each other. If a given civilian program wants to rank you high after interviewing you, they may just call the military PD and ask them what they think of you?

Ed
 
edmadison said:
Ok, two things.

First, current Army policy is not to force someone into a residency they do not want to do.
That's correct in the sense that everybody has the option of doing a transitional internship and then a gmo tour afterward.

edmadison said:
You are required to list your specialty of choice on your match form. If you are not selected into that specialty, you are supposed to get a civilian deferment. People are definately doing this. The army has deferred several peds applicants in the past few years. Now peds is a 3 year contract rather than a 1+2 like some. I'm not sure if they are still deferring for 1 year of internship and pulling you back in to do GMO.

The army recruiters tell hpsp applicants that if they don't match into their preferred specialty in the army, that they'll then get a civilian deferrment. In reality, the army will only give those deferrments out if they have a specific need for them. Yes, there are some people who get deferrments, and that's b/c the military has a need in those areas. However, if 10 people want to do PM&R (as has been the case recently), and the army only thinks it needs 3, then the other 7 will be doing GMO tours (not getting automatic deferrments).

Furthemore, if they were going to give civ deferrments out, they'd give them out to the unmatched applicants that they liked the best. So somebody who tried gaming the system to not match within the military would be playing a very dangerous game.
 
rtmcad2319 said:
Ok, first off I want to serve in the military!! I just feel that this HPSP is misleading, due to this residency CRAP! I want to take a 2-3 scholarship, and then serve for 2-3 years. I'm sorry but that is what this scholarship is suppose to be a year for year deal! What I don't understand is that if I rank, say, 10-15 programs and Walter Reed doesn't rank/pick me why would I get stuck w/ a transitional internship and not just to a civilian residency that ranked me say, for example, my 3rd choice?
Is that what you must automatically do? If you don't match into the military residency for your respected field then you MUST do a transitional year in the military? Why then would you interview at any other programs? That just seems unrealistic.

The needs of the service do and will come first, no matter your specialty. If there is a need for Neurosurgeons over and above the supply now, then you have a chance. If the NS needs are met and other fields are in demand (FP, flight surgeon, etc) then that will be what gets filled.
 
Does anybody know where I can go to find some information about the military match? When I ask advisors here on campus, nobody seems to be able to help me.
 
Does being near the top of my class (AOA, Honors, 250's) give me any more pull with the selection board (Army) when I ask for a full deferral on the JS application? I don't have prior service.
 
idq1i said:
Does being near the top of my class (AOA, Honors, 250's) give me any more pull with the selection board (Army) when I ask for a full deferral on the JS application? I don't have prior service.

think the opposite. it makes you more likely to get picked up by an army program, unless maybe you had a really, really good reason for a deferral. for instance, your spouse has cancer and can't leave her/his oncologist, etc., etc., etc.

wasn't there a future anesthesiologist on here just a few weeks ago pretty upset because he was all set to make it into Duke but got picked up by the Army anyway?
 
Mirror Form said:
That's correct in the sense that everybody has the option of doing a transitional internship and then a gmo tour afterward.

Thats only the Navy.

The Army did not give out its Neuro last year. No one wanted it I guess. I would recommend taking a hard look inward to determine if you even have what it takes to match for that speciality on the civilian side.
 
Top