Best way to get into a PhD program: MFT program VERSUS counseling ( LPC) program

[minichka2004]

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Guys,

Still no news from my PhD in Counseling Psychology Program...

So....I would appreciate your advice on the following. What initial degree gives more chances for acceptance into a Counseling Psychology program:

1. MS program in Marriage and Family Therapy (accredited, Oklahoma) which offers an opportunity to be an RA- I am already accepted into it - additional 2+ years of studies.

2. MA degree in Community Counseling (same department, same faculty with the PhD in Counseling Psychology program) - CACREP accredited, no RA positions, but only "maybe" joining research teams - - additional 2+ years of studies

3. MA degree in Community Counseling (TX)- only 48 hours, not CACREP accredited, practically no research possibilities at all.- I am half way though in this program (Texas), but if I decide to accept the MFT spot, I will drop it...or not?

I will appreciate your perspective...

PS I am in TX right now, but will move to Oklahoma, if and when I take a Grad school decision...

 

[minichka2004]

No answer from anyone....🙁

 

[alleycatpsych]

hi there,

i think a good question to ask yourself is what you want to do with a PhD in counseling psychology. if you want to be a researcher, definitely pursue a research-based MA program rather than an applied degree like the MFT. the community counseling program in the psychology department sounds like a great option, esp since you'd get to know the faculty you want to work with. If your interests are solely in clinical work, why do you need a PhD? The MFT is sufficient to do clinical work. I think you would run into some trouble explaining to the school that you are working on an MFT but that your ultimate goal is to earn a PhD so that you can do clinical work. hope that helps! good luck!

 

[minichka2004]

hi there,

i think a good question to ask yourself is what you want to do with a PhD in counseling psychology. if you want to be a researcher, definitely pursue a research-based MA program rather than an applied degree like the MFT. the community counseling program in the psychology department sounds like a great option, esp since you'd get to know the faculty you want to work with. If your interests are solely in clinical work, why do you need a PhD? The MFT is sufficient to do clinical work. I think you would run into some trouble explaining to the school that you are working on an MFT but that your ultimate goal is to earn a PhD so that you can do clinical work. hope that helps! good luck!

Hey alleycatpsych!

Thanks for your reply! 🙂 I am interested in PhD because I would like to combine clinical work with research 50% 50%. The reason why I was thinking about this particular MFT program is that it surprisingly seems to offer MORE research possibilities than the MA in community counseling program.

When I had an interview for the MS MFT program I had an opportunity to meet those professors from HDFS department doctorate program with whom I would like to do research. These professors also teach some MFT courses. Their doctorate program is purely research oriented. Also: it is actually required that MFT students are RAs.

I have also found out that HDFS department has strong links with Psychology department of this University and professors are doing research together. It seems that there no strong links like that between Education department to which Counseling MA program belongs and Psychology department....

 

[Aggieanthony]

hi there,

i think a good question to ask yourself is what you want to do with a PhD in counseling psychology.

Is being called "doctor" not sufficient motivation!?

😉

 

[Jon4PsyD]

I actually would recommend you not do the MFT program. Unless you want to stop at a Master's in MFT or get your Ph.D. in MFT.

If you want a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology - do the Master's in Counseling. If you really feel that this Master's degree is not supplying enough research for you, then look into Master's programs in General/Experimental Psychology. It's important to a lot of programs that you stay within the same discipline. And if you choose not to and go for the Ph.D. in Counseling Psych you are likely to get a lot of "Why not a Ph.D. in MFT? / Why the Master's in MFT?" questions during your interviews which...even if you have the best answer for will still get annoying after awhile.

I did a Master's in Counseling and am now headed into a Ph.D. in Counseling Psych. PM me if you want to talk more about the process.

Jon

 

[wkupmaggie]

Having a Master's degree can be a great opportunity to show that you are able to do graduate level work. I think how you use your degree and the kinds of educational experiences you seek out is much more important than the specifics of the degree itself (ie whether it's in counseling, MFT, Clinical, etc.). For me, going through a Master's program made the difference in giving me the time do develop my research interests and demonstrate the kind of work I was capable of doing.


I've known people with Master's degrees in Clinical, Counseling, MFT etc. who have all gotten in to the PhD programs they wanted (ie Master's in Counseling admitted to Clinical PhD, MFT admitted into Counseling Phd). So look at the curriculum of each program, see what suits you, your interests, and your future plans.


I think either of your first two options look great. As long as you have a degree that gives you the option to get some research experience, for a PhD that is very important. Aside from the other important parts of the application (GRE, LOR, etc), If you do a great job in a Master's program and apply to PhD programs that are a good match for your interests, you will likely be happy with the results.

Good Luck!!!

 

[minichka2004]

Jon4PsyD and wkupmaggie! Thank you. I guess in case I am not accepted to the PhD program in counseling psychology, where I am waitlisted, I will go to their Master's degree program and then to PhD program. Their Master’s degree program in counseling is shorter that the MFT program (2 years vs. 2.5 years). The MFT program gives a more specific training related to systems theory. Master’s degree in counseling offers a more varied coursework and training, which I would definitely prefer to have.

 

[Aggieanthony]

Be careful not to overlook the importance of the RA positions that are a guarantee with the MFT program you mentioned in your original post, compared to the possible existence of RA positions that the MA degree in counseling will offer to you.

Unless you can get a sweetheart deal from the university you get the MA in counseling psych from (I.e., they give you preferential admissions based on your MA curriculum at the same institution), you may face prejudice when applying to even the most strict Clinical-biased PhD program in terms of lack of research.

Or I could be completely wrong! But this has been from both my experience and the product of what I have learned from SDN.

 

[minichka2004]

Be careful not to overlook the importance of the RA positions that are a guarantee with the MFT program you mentioned in your original post, compared to the possible existence of RA positions that the MA degree in counseling will offer to you.

Unless you can get a sweetheart deal from the university you get the MA in counseling psych from (I.e., they give you preferential admissions based on your MA curriculum at the same institution), you may face prejudice when applying to even the most strict Clinical-biased PhD program in terms of lack of research.

Or I could be completely wrong! But this has been from both my experience and the product of what I have learned from SDN.

Aggieanthony, thanks for your message. I absolutely agree with you about the importance of research experience! Unfortunately, as it turned out the MFT program doesn't have any special connections with professors who need RAs, and the situation is getting worse because of the employment crisis in the country . I talked to the program director about this, and I realized that I was mistaken about their research possibilities. They do help students to find jobs on the campus, but not RA positionsp. To be an RA, you need to know the professor and have a relationship with him her, and mutual interests. RA positions wouldn't fall from the sky. However it will be possible to join research teams as a volunteer, same will be possible at the counseling Master's program....

 

[Aggieanthony]

Aggieanthony, thanks for your message. I absolutely agree with you about the importance of research experience! Unfortunately, as it turned out the MFT program doesn't have any special connections with professors who need RAs, and the situation is getting worse because of the employment crisis in the country . I talked to the program director about this, and I realized that I was mistaken about their research possibilities. They do help students to find jobs on the campus, but not RA positionsp. To be an RA, you need to know the professor and have a relationship with him her, and mutual interests. RA positions wouldn't fall from the sky. However it will be possible to join research teams as a volunteer, same will be possible at the counseling Master's program....

Ahhh! I was interested by that, mostly because every MFT program I looked at back when I was considering an "applied" degree like an MFT or MSW seemed to really focus on clinical, "get out there and start counseling" types of academics, with very little mind paid to research and academia.

Since that's the case, I wil defer to the other posters in the thread. The Master's in counseling psych would likely improve your chances for making it into a Ph.D program. In my experience, MFT/MSW candidates in PhD programs have very weak applications, centering again on how their curriculum is built - Practice vs. research.

Now, that said, you mentioned that the folks that run the MFT program also have strong(er) ties to the PhD program than do the folks running the Master's in counseling. If this is quantifiable and accurate, then maybe you should consider the MFT, even if RA ships don't "fall from the sky." This may seem like a silly question, but have you face-to-faced any professors about these decisions? If you can get someone interested in you, they can make wonderful things happen! Graduate psychology has a great deal of politicking that ends up happening because the seats are so damn limited with so many applicants - Anything that makes you stand out (i.e., you've been to the professor's office hours 5 times in a month whereas Applicant B has only sent e-mails) will really factor into your favor.

In any event, you really can't go wrong with either program, really. The desire to polarize everything really makes getting into graduate psych. programs (particularly PhD level ones) seem so freaking complex when it isn't. People can go on and on anecdotally about how Person A got into a top tier PhD program with an MFT, and someone will refute them quickly and say no, that's not really possible. But it can and it does happen!

In my approximation, the biggest factor in the whole enchilada is being mobile. Mobility, or lack of it, really can hurt you. but that doesn't seem like what you're dealing with, at the moment anyway.

Good luck in your decision and please keep us posted!

 

[minichka2004]

Ahhh! I was interested by that, mostly because every MFT program I looked at back when I was considering an "applied" degree like an MFT or MSW seemed to really focus on clinical, "get out there and start counseling" types of academics, with very little mind paid to research and academia.

Since that's the case, I wil defer to the other posters in the thread. The Master's in counseling psych would likely improve your chances for making it into a Ph.D program. In my experience, MFT/MSW candidates in PhD programs have very weak applications, centering again on how their curriculum is built - Practice vs. research.

Now, that said, you mentioned that the folks that run the MFT program also have strong(er) ties to the PhD program than do the folks running the Master's in counseling. If this is quantifiable and accurate, then maybe you should consider the MFT, even if RA ships don't "fall from the sky." This may seem like a silly question, but have you face-to-faced any professors about these decisions? If you can get someone interested in you, they can make wonderful things happen! Graduate psychology has a great deal of politicking that ends up happening because the seats are so damn limited with so many applicants - Anything that makes you stand out (i.e., you've been to the professor's office hours 5 times in a month whereas Applicant B has only sent e-mails) will really factor into your favor.

In any event, you really can't go wrong with either program, really. The desire to polarize everything really makes getting into graduate psych. programs (particularly PhD level ones) seem so freaking complex when it isn't. People can go on and on anecdotally about how Person A got into a top tier PhD program with an MFT, and someone will refute them quickly and say no, that's not really possible. But it can and it does happen!

In my approximation, the biggest factor in the whole enchilada is being mobile. Mobility, or lack of it, really can hurt you. but that doesn't seem like what you're dealing with, at the moment anyway.

Good luck in your decision and please keep us posted!

Aggieanthony, you are right again! The MFT program offers really great clinical training, and students do start to work as clinicians soon after they start the program. They have their clinic of their own....And yes, I had a feeling that practical experience for them is more important than academic training. I still am kind of vague about the research possibilities they have. When I had been interviewed I had an appointment with 2 other professors from the HDFS department who don't belong to MFT department. They were talking about their research, and saying that it is not impossible to join their teams.... However, when I e-mailed the program director and asked him about RA positions, and research experience their students can have, he answered that " research assistantships are going to be hard to find for this fall. In general faculty have already selected the students they would like to work with. .....faculty love to have students work with them on research projects . We are all happy to publish and present research with students so this is very much a possibility. If you decide to attend XXXX when you come in the fall you can talk with different faculty to see where you might want to volunteer your time and what research projects you are most interested in. It will be easier for you to get a research assistantship after the first semester because you can get to know the faculty and possibly work your way into a research assistantship."

Well, seems promising....
Another thing, is that their Master's degree MFT program is terminal . They don't have a PhD MFT program. Their HDFS department has pure research oriented PhD programs: one focuses on human development, another focuses on research related to marriage and family relationships. MFT faculty has only 3 professors. However they seem to have very good contact with their PhD programs faculty....

I haven't asked anything about research possibilities that Master's degree program in Counseling offers. To be more precise, I did ask, but they never gave me an answer, because they still consider me for their PhD program, I am the second alternate on the waiting list....Their PhD program in Counseling Psychology seems to be my perfect match, and they are both clinical and research oriented. Same professors teach on the Master's and Doctorate levels. So, I assume it will also be possible to do some volunteer research with their professors still being in Master's degree program....

As you see, I still haven't decided.... But I think I will finally choose the community counseling program. Furthermore, I need to decide about the MFT program very soon: either at the end of this week, or in the beginning of the next. They gave us 1-2 weeks to decide. Next week I still may be waitlisted in the counseling psychology program....Actually, I may be waitlisted there until April the 15th...So, I think, I will be forced to reject the MFT offer...

Anyway, thanks for your help, I really appreciate it! And what about you? What PhD program program are you in now?