betrayed by PI

[nancy0223]

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Although the title might sound a lil harsher than how others may judge from my story, I feel very disappointed and personally betrayed from this research experience.
I've been working in this lab at a prestigious research institution, where the PI is what ppl could call "a rising star" in his field, as an undergraduate researcher. Since I joined the lab, I was delegated an independent, multi-stage project for which I was the lead under the support of an experienced PhD student. The project has taken me 2nd half of my junior yr, one summer, and my senior year thus far and I'm currently stuck in a particular stage which is crucial to overcome for the success of the whole thing.
My PI has recently decided, after having me worked on the project for the past year and half, to hand it over to a postdoc who has recently joined the lab. Even though I could see the reasoning behind his decision, I sacrificed too much for this project to just easily let it go. Because of this project, I was distracted from my MCAT studying, caused conflicts with some of my teammates, ans sacrificed both my summer & winter working on expts. Now I don't know if everything that I've given up for it has been worthwhile. And the PI was simply using me as a research tool. When someone better comes along, ie the postdoc who has extensive experience working w/ similar systems to ours, he just ditched me w/o hesitance.
I'm sorry for the long post, but just need a place to vent. Come and discuss if u're interested.

 

[GliaGirl]

So are you off the project entirely, or are you now working under the postdoc? The former is absolute bull****. The latter is still not cool, but less crappy.

 

[nancy0223]

So are you off the project entirely, or are you now working under the postdoc? The former is absolute bull****. The latter is still not cool, but less crappy.

he actually offered to keep me as a 3rd supporting person on the project in addition to the PhD student who was assisting me. But I really don't know if I still want to do this anymore at all.

 

[itsallthesame]

Sadly, most people in this world look out for themselves.
Your PI is probably thinking that it's been almost 2 years, (s)he needs this published because chances are good it could get scooped and (s)he needs to get more grant money if tenure is going to be a possibility.
The downside is that you feel like you are losing a project that you owned before. BUT! The upside is that you now have an extra established researcher who is going to help you get over this hump. AND... with that comes the possibility that maybe you'll get to submit a paper for publication before applications go out.

Maybe you are the exception, but few undergrads can devote the hours that a post doc does to research and few have the research savy. Yes, this situation sucks; however, if you get a paper out of it quicker in the long run it may help you more. Especially when your PI writes your rec and it says exactly how for a long time you took the lead in this project, contributed this idea and that experiment and! look, it lead to this great publication.

That aside, you should probably do a realistic assesment of the situation yourself. How much did your original ideas contribute to the goal of the project. To the design of idividual experiements. To the interpretation of results and design of follow up experiments. How much did the student and PI contribute relative to you in those regards? In terms of what remains to be done with the project, how does that part compare in terms of scientific significance and overall work. Then, have a frank discussion with your PI and discuss how adding the post doc will affect the authorship order, etc. Regardless, stick with the project and welcome to science.

Edit: I know it seems like you've been on this project forever, but one particular project a friend worked on as a post doc and resulted in a nature paper took 2 post docs the better part of 5 years and recieved contributions from 3 established top five med school PIs, and 6 other grad students/post docs. This may have seemed like a long year, but simply the fact that chances are decent that you simply won't be around to finish the it may require the PI to add someone else.

 

[GWD]

p00p

 

[GWD]

From what I read.. concentrate on your MCAT.

It's way too early to get wrapped up in all the bull**** of a thesis as an undergrad..

Time is on your side, just spend as much time as you can in the lab, and don't sweat the rest.

Focus on doing the best you can on the MCAT.

They'll be plenty of time to deal with the thesis stuff once you get accepted.

 

[Vlaves]

I certainly feel your pain, but all is not lost. Things may actually go faster this way, and you will still receive substantial credit for what you have achieved. Moreover, you will also know more about the project, something you can exhibit to other researchers (or interviewers).

I also got betrayed a bit... I spent two months on a project (I had to develop a biosensor into an adenovirus for easier delivery into cells). I finished everything but the last step -- to spin down and purify the virus. At the time, I had to go to an interview, so my PI purified the virus himself (takes an hour or so). He then took the credit for it, published the use of this virus, gave 0 credit to me =/. So yeah, most PIs try to look out for themselves, as itsallthesame says. But I say whatever, I gained the experience, I have other multiple projects, and if things go right, I will be leaving soon anyway. I wouldn't let these things that are pretty short run get you down, since this will all be left behind when you move on. The hardest thing you could do is stay there another 1 or 2 years. It's obviously not 4 or 5, so I wouldn't worry too much. If you had to stay there for like 10 years, though...

 

[Neuronix]

Get used to it. I've been jerked around so many times and seen similar things happen to my graduate student and undergrad colleagues.

The positive side is: this doesn't really matter. This is why MD/PhD programs don't expect that undergrads will publish. There are too many factors out of your control. You still put in significant time there, you'll probably end up as third author (even if that is unfair), and your admissions will come down to that time and your GPA/MCAT. In the long run, you being first vs not first author on your project as an undergrad doesn't matter.

The negative side is: Get used to it. This kind of crap happens all the time. I've heard it put this way to me many times, and I hate repeating it, but it's true that... If you don't like it, get out of research.

And try not to burn any bridges with your dissatisfaction. Your PI's letter matters more than anything you could gain from being too confrontational, so you're liable to piss people off while standing up for yourself AND shoot yourself in the foot. I mean I stand up for myself and piss people off in the process all the time, but I don't recommend it. You might want to at least talk to your PI about what happened, let them know you are dissatisifed, and if that doesn't sway them, there's really nothing you can do. I've seen this exact same situation happen to PhD and MD/PhD students and it's held them a year or two extra in graduate school. Even a graduate student or MD/PhD student in this situation has absolutely zero recourse. Many PIs simply don't care. As long as the work gets done, they get funding, they succeed.

Expect that similar things can and will happen in graduate school. Just hope they're minor things and don't sink your career or hold you back a year or more when they do.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, I mean this in the gentlest possible way: don't be a fool. I know you're disappointed with how things turned out, but the best thing you can do is take a step back and focus on the big picture here. A year from now when you're in med school, this PI will have zero importance in your life, but right now he can really help or hurt you. Also, after 1.5 years in the lab, even part-time, you deserve something for your work. Accept your PI's offer to make you the third person on the project, and don't let your hurt pride stand in the way of getting a good research LOR and maybe your name on a paper. The latter will give you a leg up over other applicants, and the former is absolutely essential if you want to go to a research-oriented med school or an MD/PhD program. You could also consider writing up what you have done in the lab for an honors thesis.

Look at the situation this way: your relationship with your PI is one of mutual convenience. Working in his lab is a stepping stone for your career, so both of you are using each other. Best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[Neuronix]

I wouldn't really bother with an honors thesis to be honest. Nobody pays any attention to them and nobody cares whether you graduated honors or not in the med school or MD/PhD admissions game.

 

[QofQuimica]

I wouldn't really bother with an honors thesis to be honest. Nobody pays any attention to them and nobody cares whether you graduated honors or not in the med school or MD/PhD admissions game.

You can't make such a strong blanket statement, Neuro. Some schools and programs won't care, but others will, especially for an UG with no other research experience. I'll grant that most of my interviewers were only interested in my PhD work, but I still got asked about my ten-year-old UG thesis. It was in agricultural science, and I rather doubt the interviewer was fascinated by our efforts to prevent black rot on tomatoes. He wanted to hear me explain the hypothesis and my role on that project even though I had already told him about my MS work, PhD work, and clinical trial work. Fortunately, I had reviewed my project info before going to that interview. 😉

It can't hurt the OP to get some experience with writing up his/her work and going before a committee in a relatively low-pressure environment, either.

 

[gstrub]

Betrayed? Please...(unless he omits your name from the final publication and you have figures which appear in the manuscript). You are an undergraduate. You may not have even been 1st author had you overcome this stage in the research, and if your PI is a "rising star" than he needs it published, and likely needs more work than you can do at this point to submit it to a good journal.

So:
1. Don't piss off your PI or give him an attitude about this, as others have said, this crap happens ALL THE TIME. Make sure you don't jeopardize your LOR.

2. Maximize your other areas of your application (MCAT etc).

3. Make sure to see a final draft of the manuscript before it is submitted and see what figures, if any, you have put together yourself that are included. Then judge what kind of contribution you have made to the project. Remember, hours spent in a lab working on a project does not an author make.

 

[Neuronix]

You can't make such a strong blanket statement, Neuro. Some schools and programs won't care, but others will, especially for an UG with no other research experience.

The op has several years in a lab. That's what matters. Whether they wrote it up as an undergrad thesis is pretty much irrelevant. If they got abstracts/posters/publications, that is relevant.

It can't hurt the OP to get some experience with writing up his/her work and going before a committee in a relatively low-pressure environment, either.

Assuming the committee even reads it 😉 I still think the honors thesis is kind of a lot of time spent for something that doesn't really matter. Your interviewer probably just didn't know what to talk about and asked since you did one and was on the topic of research. I ask about all sorts of goofy things when I interview that I don't really care about or aren't going to make a difference on the application. It's hard to make conversation sometimes.

Of course I can't say your undergrad thesis matters nothing to nobody. But it's one of those gazillion things that pre-meds seem to think matters but don't. Courseload, undergrad rep, major choice, honors thesis... All pretty much a big shrug. Do they matter sometimes some small amount to some people? Probably. Do they matter a lot to a lot of people? Very unlikely. Is your time better spent improving your GPA/MCAT score/time in lab/other ECs? You bet.

3. Make sure to see a final draft of the manuscript before it is submitted and see what figures, if any, you have put together yourself that are included. Then judge what kind of contribution you have made to the project. Remember, hours spent in a lab working on a project does not an author make.

Yeah, my undergrad pub doesn't even have my middle initial with my name. The grad student who published it never even showed it to me or asked my feedback. The MD/PhD in my year who got his thesis project scooped by a post-doc in his lab did get an acknoledgement on the paper, with his last name misspelled. So try to get your hands on the paper if possible 😉 Hopefully you still end up an author and hopefully your name is correct.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Although the title might sound a lil harsher than how others may judge from my story, I feel very disappointed and personally betrayed from this research experience.
I've been working in this lab at a prestigious research institution, where the PI is what ppl could call "a rising star" in his field, as an undergraduate researcher. Since I joined the lab, I was delegated an independent, multi-stage project for which I was the lead under the support of an experienced PhD student. The project has taken me 2nd half of my junior yr, one summer, and my senior year thus far and I'm currently stuck in a particular stage which is crucial to overcome for the success of the whole thing.
My PI has recently decided, after having me worked on the project for the past year and half, to hand it over to a postdoc who has recently joined the lab. Even though I could see the reasoning behind his decision, I sacrificed too much for this project to just easily let it go. Because of this project, I was distracted from my MCAT studying, caused conflicts with some of my teammates, ans sacrificed both my summer & winter working on expts. Now I don't know if everything that I've given up for it has been worthwhile. And the PI was simply using me as a research tool. When someone better comes along, ie the postdoc who has extensive experience working w/ similar systems to ours, he just ditched me w/o hesitance.
I'm sorry for the long post, but just need a place to vent. Come and discuss if u're interested.

This is an unfortunate situation that we see posted on SDN now and again. A few important rules in this field: NEVER make enemies, never burn bridges, and never make trouble. As others have said, we've all been there; more than once for me (as an undergraduate, then again as a graduate student, and again as a postdoc.). It boils down to getting the most (that doesn't mean everything) out of the experience and (even though unjust), it's a huge lesson in humility if you're willing to accept it. Again, that doesn't make it right, moral, or acceptable, and I don't agree with it at all. It's just the way it is.

As an undergraduate student (and more so for premed), it's usually clear to PIs that your primary goal is to gain research experiences, a letter of recommendation, and to strengthen your CV. His/her goal is to get the data and publication as fast as possible to get the next grant, win tenure, and to avoid being scooped by competitive researchers in other labs who I promise you are working just as feverishly to beat to you to the finish line. The PI also sees that the experiment you run cost thousands of dollars more than hired labor and (again, believe it or not), they see it is a privilege that you are there and not a right. Two totally different ways to look at it, that's all.

Gaining a publication at this level of the game is actually rarer than people think, and much more deserving than most undergraduates want to believe. Sometimes, the PI will throw you a bone and make you first author on a manuscript of a project that they have devised, and after the lab has taught you the techniques needed to execute the project, but it's rare.

The most important thing is that you got the experience, you'll probably get a strong letter of recommendation and, if you make sure you stay involved (offer to present data and to write up the part of the manuscript you contributed to), you'll get co-authorship. It NEVER pays to whine about authorship in this field because, ultimately, those above yoi and alongside of you will ONLY remember the whining.

It's a sad fact that scientific productivity and short-term goals are often at the forefront of the minds of PIs, and that usually means that undergraduates (and graduate students) don't get treated as fairly as their hard work and dedication deserves but, as others here have stated, that's just the way this field roles. The one thing that you can do (and this is the best part from my own experience) is that you get to decide never to be this way when you've gained your training, and you're in the position to help others along the way.

 

[Neuronix]

NEVER make enemies, never burn bridges, and never make trouble.

Ahhh, if it were only possible to have completed my PhD without causing trouble. What happens when your PI uses you as a shield in the middle of their political battles and expects you to solve them with no political standing just so you can do your experiments?

The one thing that you can do (and this is the best part from my own experience) is that you get to decided never to be this way when you've gained your training, and you're in the position to help others along the way.

I hear this from my MD/PhD director a lot. "Well now you've learned what not to do when you're a PI." No, what I've learned is, this whole game sucks and I don't want to be a PI anymore. By not protecting our students from abuse, that's what we're getting, a lot of MD/PhDs choosing a clinical world, and only the most dedicated, most likely to step on everyone in their path, reject their competetors papers for no good reason, are what's left.

So what will it be for you nancy? That is the decision you will have to make. You have no choice, no recourse, but to accept it as just another part of academic medicine. If you keep getting screwed long enough and persist to the detriment of all other logic (i.e. better hours, better pay, less stress, etc...), you might be the PI some day yourself. That is, if you have enough good letters of recommendation from the people you worked under before and other people in the field.

If you want to get tenure (which probably won't even exist when you get there) in a hard funding environment, you might have to put multiple students on the same project yourself, because you'll have to compete with everyone else doing the same thing. Strange system isn't it? That's what it takes to be a big name lab, and I'm not sure I'd recommend training in a big name lab for these kinds of reasons. Of course not every big name PI does unethical things, but enough do that it makes you a bit jaded after awhile.

As an aside, I do think it's wrong for a PI to put multiple people on the same project without making it clear what the authorship roles will be. It is wrong to bring someone new into the lab and have them take the lead on a project instead of people who have been working on it for years. There's simply no justification for this in my mind. It is unethical. If you have a project that is too big for or is too important for an undergrad, don't put the undergrad on the project. Unfortunately, ethics are almost never enforced in the world of research. Only the rare cases where someone is caught faking data--but even that is usually written off as "sloppy science". I've seen all of these things repeatedly, and it makes me sick. Unfortunately, like in many things, acting ethically is not in the best interests of your own career.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Ahhh, if it were only possible to have completed my PhD without causing trouble.

Nobody is perfect. Oh, I've made my mistake, too - trust me. This is one area, though, you must be careful navigating if you want to stay in competitive research.

 

[Neuronix]

Nobody is perfect. Oh, I've made my mistake, too - trust me. This is one area, though, you must be careful navigating if you want to stay in competitive research.

😀 or you can get caught in a political schism as a tenure track professor and thus be forever forbidden from getting a tenure track anywhere. Been there seen that 😱.

 

[nancy0223]

I certainly feel your pain, but all is not lost. Things may actually go faster this way, and you will still receive substantial credit for what you have achieved. Moreover, you will also know more about the project, something you can exhibit to other researchers (or interviewers).

I also got betrayed a bit... I spent two months on a project (I had to develop a biosensor into an adenovirus for easier delivery into cells). I finished everything but the last step -- to spin down and purify the virus. At the time, I had to go to an interview, so my PI purified the virus himself (takes an hour or so). He then took the credit for it, published the use of this virus, gave 0 credit to me =/. So yeah, most PIs try to look out for themselves, as itsallthesame says. But I say whatever, I gained the experience, I have other multiple projects, and if things go right, I will be leaving soon anyway. I wouldn't let these things that are pretty short run get you down, since this will all be left behind when you move on. The hardest thing you could do is stay there another 1 or 2 years. It's obviously not 4 or 5, so I wouldn't worry too much. If you had to stay there for like 10 years, though...

dude, what happened to u is definitely worse than my experience...
after all, my PI promised to credit me for my work (but probably not as a first/2nd author tho.)

 

[Scottish Chap]

By not protecting our students from abuse, that's what we're getting, a lot of MD/PhDs choosing a clinical world, and only the most dedicated, most likely to step on everyone in their path, reject their competetors papers for no good reason, are what's left.

100% agreed. So, if you can think of a better way, please share it.

 

[Neuronix]

100% agreed. So, if you can think of a better way, please share it.

I'd love to write a book on this topic based on my own experiences and those of my classmates with plenty of suggestions. I can't do that at this stage of my career (or any?) because of the bridges I would light on fire, demolish, cause a flood behind the bridge, wipe out a few neighboring villages, and then no matter where I was standing be wiped out in the ensuing flood or at least by a hitman who's pissed because their mother's brother's uncle was caught in the flood too.

 

[fairalexfield]

I hear this from my MD/PhD director a lot. "Well now you've learned what not to do when you're a PI." No, what I've learned is, this whole game sucks and I don't want to be a PI anymore. By not protecting our students from abuse, that's what we're getting, a lot of MD/PhDs choosing a clinical world, and only the most dedicated, most likely to step on everyone in their path, reject their competetors papers for no good reason, are what's left.

Neuronix: you seem to have had a horrible experience that has left you forever jaded with the idea of going into academic research. I'm a realist when it comes to the politics/road blocks that I will approach as a graduate student, but it can't really be all that bad. My former PI made a great career for himself (tenure at an ivy league university) and he never stepped on anyone else or mistreated his graduate students. Sure maybe the 'big guys' labs are like this, but take your average lab and I think you'll find a lot of honest, hard working PI's who treat their students well. Yes, there are bullies out there and you'll always have to play politics, but honestly, you're a moderator for an MD/PhD forum and it seems that you've made it your sole purpose to disuade anyone from getting a graduate degree and just going the MD path (you haven't said this explicitly but based on most of your posts it definitely sounds this way). A lot of these situations can be avoided by asking the right questions before joining a lab and taking on a project, but obviously it's difficult to know what questions to ask as a new student.

All I'm trying to say is that there're plenty of people who've had positive experiences with research who end up becoming successful PIs who aren't complete *******s . I agree it's important to know the drawbacks of this career path and I appreciate these kinds of posts, but honestly, any of you MD/PhD students who read this stuff, let's here from someone who had a positive experience and who plans on going the PI route.

edit: also, I've found that there is a separate MD/PhD committee at many schools that help students choose the right mentor (has a good reputation for getting kids out quickly, good training experience, etc.) who can help us avoid joining labs like this.

 

[Neuronix]

I really like your post. I don't mean to write it off and it's an important perspective to keep in mind. But I'll ask you to go look up the MD/PhD forum about... I dunno... 5-6 years ago when I was a new mod. You'll find posts I made that sound almost exactly like yours. There were a bunch of now long gone senior students griping and a few pre-meds/1st years (we have a few now) saying, "stop being so bitter! It's not really like this!" That was me. I was Mr. Optimism. I annoyed the senior students right off this board with my constant little nitpicky posts about how you should hang in there and things are great and why are you people so bitter? The real world isn't like this, it's just you gripers love to flock to SDN. I was Mr. MD/PhD is the best way to train for a research career and if you just plan things out the right way and pay attention and work hard all things will work out for you in life.

Unfortunately, I'm Dr. MD/PhD now. I've watched a whole class of students go from definitely/probably doing research to never/unlikely doing research. When I get together with my classmates, I'm probably the most upbeat and optimistic about a research career. The last time we got together, before I took my year out, my classmates were really surprised to hear I was having issues with my PI and my committee because I seemed very successful, very happy, and always so upbeat about doing research forever and ever.

What I'm NOT saying is don't do this. What I am saying is, this is reality. If you want to ignore reality or live in your own world, that's your choice. Maybe things will line up well for you and you won't have any significant roadblocks on the road to tenure (yeah right). You'll probably get very screwed over more than once. The stuff that's out of your control could potentially stifle or kill your career. I've seen it happen to good people over and over again. I've seen other optimistic first years end up in private practice. You can't ignore reality forever. You can't ignore that well less than half of MD/PhD graduates actually end up in a majority research career. And I'm of the belief that MD/PhD students don't start MD/PhD programs to be clinicians. We're all reasonably sure we want to be researchers. We're the most qualified and talented and have the most experience coming in. What happens on the way through that makes us like this? I have a lot of good ideas, but nobody wants to talk about it. Instead the 6th years talk to the 6th years, the 1st years talk to the first years, and we all look at our MSTP grants and make them sound as great as possible to get the best workers... errr students and keep those grants funded.

What's happening? You'll see. Maybe you'll be lucky. Maybe you'll take it all in stride. Maybe you'll end up like me. It's hard to say. My fuel is fired by the incoming students to med school and grad school who once told me I as cynical/pessimistic/bitter who become more bitter than myself. But you won't see them posting on SDN. They don't want to be labelled as bitter. They don't want to see themselves as cynical. I mean, why would they try to tell the incoming students what's up? You won't listen anyways. So you have only a handful of senior students (myself, sluox, gstrub, gbwillner, others) and you can see what we sound like. We don't disagree that much.

It's reality. It's academic medicine. It's a recommendation-based hierarchy that lends itself to abuse of those under them. The politics that come out from that is a nightmare. Output (money) is the most rewarded no matter what the means of that output. In today's funding environment, to get ANY output only the strong survive. And when you pick a lab, you don't know who's taking the steroids. You only find out too late and either drop the PhD or fight like hell on out of there.

Don't get me wrong... MD isn't much better. Output is rewarded. Is residency at all about education? No. Could you be fired from your residency program for any reason? Yep. Is the 80 hour work week largely ignored? Pretty much. Is this cynical? It's reality, regardless of the personal judgements.

Come back in another 6 years or so. Keep in touch and stick around. I hope you have a happy and productive life. If the funding situation improves we probably won't need the steroids anymore. We might all start sounding like optimistic MD/PhDs who never had to battle through single digit funding rates to start a career. We might not feel the acute pressure of a PI whose grants and/or job might run out and thus beats you and everyone else in the lab to get MORE DATA MORE DATA NOW NOW NOW. And that's the optimistic part of the post.

But don't be surprised if some of us will continue to be scarred from the trauma. I know one MD/PhD who's very successful at research who came through in the last bad funding cycle of the 80s. He's very insistant everyone should do residency, preferably in something that's got a good gig clinically. Everyone knows this whole career is unstable. That you might work hard and things may not work out regardless. That no matter what you do if you try to start your career on a bad cycle you won't get those R01s in the three years your department requires and be screwed. These scars and experiences stay with you. The scars of the assistant profs you look up to getting fired, while the ones who are most abusive and least knowledgeable stay on. Or the grad students who got so depressed they sit in their room in their underwear for months because they put in months of all night work only to get yelled at by their PI for not working hard enough. Of the other grad student who wants to kill his PI or kill himself because he just constantly gets beaten and can't deal with the constant political struggle just to survive. The worst scars are the recently hired professors who were so fed up with it all for the same reasons as me that they ran as far from here as they could. But still they spent all those years and years trying oh so hard to bang their square peg into that round hole. All those years training in research... It has to be good for something right?? Right???? I can't just throw it all away? Are all those people really smarter than me? But my grants aren't getting funded? My papers take forever to get published? It's a constant battle just to do my job. I'm so unhappy and it never seems to be getting better??? And then one of the unhappy ones, the one I looked up to most, dies one night in his sleep, having fought all that time for their career and never getting there.

It's all there in my head and I can't get rid of it. It's kind of like when I was growing up and I was hungry and had to bum money from my friends to eat. It's all in there. You can't expect it not to color our perspectives. You can try to isolate me as being one dissatisifed MD/PhD student who's alone in this. But I'm not alone. I'm just vocal. Scratch some more senior students, and not the few cheerleaders an MD/PhD program will recommend. You'll see what I mean.

Good luck.

 

[gstrub]

Two great points were just brought up:

1. Picking the right lab. At our program, they won't just let you join any old lab. Even more so now with the addition of a new MD/PhD Dean. You want a lab that is well funded, productive, and with experience (if not then CLEAR understanding) with MD/PhD students.

2. Authorship order. I've found, at least in my department, that before the manuscript is finished, all promises/allusions about authorship order are anecdotal. Example: a friend of mine in another lab spent 6 months cloning mutants of a protein we were going to use. He succeeded, but the results didn't make the paper stronger, and thus they weren't included, and neither was his name. On the other hand, I did one experiment that worked beautifully for a post-doc in our lab and got the western into the paper. It took me 1 day. 3rd author, TOP tier journal. Bottom line: if you haven't authored a figure, don't figure on being an author.

 

[gbwillner]

I've been working in this lab at a prestigious research institution, where the PI is what ppl could call "a rising star" in his field, as an undergraduate researcher. Since I joined the lab, I was delegated an independent, multi-stage project for which I was the lead under the support of an experienced PhD student. The project has taken me 2nd half of my junior yr, one summer, and my senior year thus far and I'm currently stuck in a particular stage which is crucial to overcome for the success of the whole thing.

Nancy,
First, as others said, try not to take things so personally. We have all experienced bad things like this, were our egos get shattered a bit. Really that's part of the process. We all start out thinking how awesome we are, but our PIs and peers know that we are nothing until we acutally achieve something. And in science the work speaks for itself.
As I read your above description of the process, I see that this is not really your project. First, you didn't design it, and second, you are working under a grad student. Chances are the grad student designed this project if you are working under their supervision- like their scut monkey. The PI has a vested interest in finishing the project and gettting it published- and both of those things are likely to happen after you are gone.
Getting your name on a paper is a great thing for an undergrad. I wouldn't take that for granted. It's pretty awesome. I think you may have set your expectations a little high. Now, if the PI promised you first authorship on the paper, you planned all the experiments, and did all the work; you would have a really good reason to be pissed. In fact i would bring it up before the ethics committee at your institution. But I doubt any of these things happened.
When I was an undergrad I was also in a similar position. I was in a project that was ultimately published in PNAS, where I did most of the data collection. I even think some of my work was televised in a National Geographic special. But I didn't conceive of the project and I didn't write the paper. In the end, I wasn't even listed as an author on the paper (I was mentioned in the acknowledgements). Unlike you, I was happy when the paper came out and saw my name in it.
Don't worry. Your time will come. For now, be thankful for the opportunities you get.

 

[Neuronix]

edit: also, I've found that there is a separate MD/PhD committee at many schools that help students choose the right mentor (has a good reputation for getting kids out quickly, good training experience, etc.) who can help us avoid joining labs like this.

Edit reply: BTW, we have that. It's one of the reasons I had to interview with ~20 labs to find my second rotation since so many ended up being disqualified (that or the lab wasn't taking students). But there's a few PIs who have dropped off the approved list due to the experiences of my classmates. There's the new PIs who are wildcards, though with funding the way it is and the hiring freezes, they're hard to find. It's good to listen to your program's advice on this. It's not a perfect protection.

Would I say a new student shouldn't join the lab I did my thesis in? No. There's not many to choose from in my area, and the others either have no funding, aren't taking grad students, or are more toxic. But my experiences are a little unusual in that I didn't do mine in the typical call & molecular biology. The further you get from the typical blots and gels, the odder things seem to get.

 

[dmantooth]

This thread is so on the mark it's scary. I'm finishing up my MD/PhD (8 years) in a few months but these stories ring so true that I don't know if I can read this forum anymore. I remember the other grad student in my small lab. He said I reminded him of the movie Good Will Hunting. He said he had to do research, but I had the choice to leave and get my MD only. He kept waiting for me not to show up one day and be gone forever like Will Hunting. We both finished around the same time and kept our promise that we wouldn't contact each other again. It would bring back too many "scars" and "experiences."

 

[gbwillner]

I remember the other grad student in my small lab. He said I reminded him of the movie Good Will Hunting. He said he had to do research, but I had the choice to leave and get my MD only. He kept waiting for me not to show up one day and be gone forever like Will Hunting. We both finished around the same time and kept our promise that we wouldn't contact each other again. It would bring back too many "scars" and "experiences."

your sentence here wants us hearing more.... Like what happened that one night? Were you both drunk? Who took advantage of whom?

😉

 

[nancy0223]

Nancy,
First, as others said, try not to take things so personally. We have all experienced bad things like this, were our egos get shattered a bit. Really that's part of the process. We all start out thinking how awesome we are, but our PIs and peers know that we are nothing until we acutally achieve something. And in science the work speaks for itself.
As I read your above description of the process, I see that this is not really your project. First, you didn't design it, and second, you are working under a grad student. Chances are the grad student designed this project if you are working under their supervision- like their scut monkey. The PI has a vested interest in finishing the project and gettting it published- and both of those things are likely to happen after you are gone.
Getting your name on a paper is a great thing for an undergrad. I wouldn't take that for granted. It's pretty awesome. I think you may have set your expectations a little high. Now, if the PI promised you first authorship on the paper, you planned all the experiments, and did all the work; you would have a really good reason to be pissed. In fact i would bring it up before the ethics committee at your institution. But I doubt any of these things happened.
When I was an undergrad I was also in a similar position. I was in a project that was ultimately published in PNAS, where I did most of the data collection. I even think some of my work was televised in a National Geographic special. But I didn't conceive of the project and I didn't write the paper. In the end, I wasn't even listed as an author on the paper (I was mentioned in the acknowledgements). Unlike you, I was happy when the paper came out and saw my name in it.
Don't worry. Your time will come. For now, be thankful for the opportunities you get.

Although I worked under the supervision of a grad student, all he did was to get me started on the project b/c I was unfamiliar w/ the system. I did >90% of all the work & planned all experiments w/ the grad student. Even he feels bad about the PI's decision but I guess there's really not much we can do.

 

[ohioguyo]

As a current MSTPer, I actually mostly agree w gwillner.. Look at it this way, five years from now what will be the big difference between you having been on the project with the grad student and being on with grad student plus the new postdoc? Next to nothing. If you are honest with yourself you may realize it is not totally "your" project and yours alone; unless you truly did design, implement, analyze, write up, and acquire funding for it all by your lonesome.

In my years in labs I've seen lots of drama & come to realize that much of it is often self-generated. Hours run long and anyone can begin to feel posessive of something they've worked on and a bit paranoid they're being "edged out"; when in reality most successfully science is a team effort and adding authors to the soup doesn't detract from anyone else's contribution. I once knew a grad student who thought his PI had a hidden agenda to get him to drop out & steal all his work - really, are thoughts like that realistic? Perhaps the postdoc's involvement will make it into a stronger publication, one you can be proud to have your name on too.

Anyway, consider the possibility that PI's offer to have you on the project along with the grad student/postdoc was a sincere attempt to enhance the project as a whole & actually not a plan to diminish you in any way. Have a positive attitude that will get you a great LOR, but do look out for your own interest (you're a student, dont sacrifice tooo much MCAT study time) and make sure its clear you're still a part of the project and paper & its personally important to you to still be involved. Good luck!

 

[Scottish Chap]

Hours run long and anyone can begin to feel posessive of something they've worked on and a bit paranoid they're being "edged out"; when in reality most successfully science is a team effort and adding authors to the soup doesn't detract from anyone else's contribution.

What an impressive response! I can't articulate it any better.

 

[alacast]

All I have to say is I'm so thankful I've happened to only work with tenured, older, kindly professors. They've been very generous in letting me strike out on my own projects, take credit for the findings, and generally give me a place to be my own PI. Their perspective is that they don't need any more name recognition for themselves and have plenty of resources to study what they want, in addition to supply my projects.

Of course, something could be said for having missed out on being with a younger researcher, who possibly has a different energy level, pace, etc. But as an undergrad, I've been very happy with it. 🙂

 

[Jorje286]

Of course, something could be said for having missed out on being with a younger researcher, who possibly has a different energy level, pace, etc. But as an undergrad, I've been very happy with it.

I've been (as an undergraduate) with a young researcher who was just starting out and my experience is very different from the OP's and most people here. I got my own project, and even though there were periods where I was slacking, I kept on my own project and now it's basically done. On top of it, he gave me first authorship for a paper even though he was the one who came up with the project idea. I did all of the work, but tbh I'm not sure that's even fair.

It really all comes down to the people you pick and chose. There's from everything out there.

 

[JHopRevisit]

Seeing Nix go off the handle and post an eight-paragraph response to someone else's optimism made me smile. Just like old times. It's funnier when I'm not the target of the response.
And Neuro, if you're the most optimistic of all the students in your class, dear god almighty, I don't even know what to say. And I still haven't been worn down by research, but I'm waiting for it. 🙂

 

[Neuronix]

😀

Sometimes the bull hits ya, sometimes it don't.

 

[Neuronix]

You know I posted that and about an hour later the good luck bull hit me smack in the head. Wooooooooooooo!

My fortune: Good karma.

 

[Vader]

Seeing Nix go off the handle and post an eight-paragraph response to someone else's optimism made me smile. Just like old times. It's funnier when I'm not the target of the response.
And Neuro, if you're the most optimistic of all the students in your class, dear god almighty, I don't even know what to say. And I still haven't been worn down by research, but I'm waiting for it. 🙂

Ditto! 😉👍

 

[fairalexfield]

I annoyed the senior students right off this board with my constant little nitpicky posts about how you should hang in there and things are great and why are you people so bitter?

So not much has changed then, now you're chasing people away with your pessimism

...but honestly, you're being a bit melodramatic. There's heaping piles of bullpoo that comes along with this career path. I'm just trying to say that not everyone who's successful is someone who will "most likely to step on everyone in their path, reject their competitors papers for no good reason"...there are plenty of good people out there

I'm also not trying to write you off as just one angry student, there are plenty of others who're just as upset and jaded. But as you said yourself, about 50% of people go into a majority research career, it just depends on how you want to spin the statistic.

 

[Neuronix]

All valid points. This is why I've been in the process of getting someone a little more optimistic promoted to moderator... Vader. Also, it's why I promoted gbwillner. I'd like to have a balance of perspectives.

My good luck bull hit me in the forehead and I'm still delirious from that, so cheers 👍

 

[dragonfly99]

Medicine doctor/research fellow here:
I agree with Q
and itsallthesame
They are totally right.

 

[greg12345]

Stop being so naive. Put yourself in your PI's shoes. If the NIH funding line is @ 11% and you are young faculty and trying to establish yourself, you better believe you need a PhD postdoc heading up an important project rather than an undergrad who has other time commitments. Welcome to science (and reality). If you don't like getting thrown under the bus you should stay out of science (and medicine as well). Love the jaded cynicism in this thread, telling it like it is but so few of the young ones willing to listen!

 

[gbwillner]

If you don't like getting thrown under the bus you should stay out of science (and medicine as well). Love the jaded cynicism in this thread, telling it like it is but so few of the young ones willing to listen!

Well... that's one way to put things.

I would prefer to say to get over yourself and appreciate the exposure you are getting and be part of the science. No one owes you anything at this point, and you have to earn your way up the food chain. Politics are part of the game, unfortunately. But if you lighten up and take things with a grain of salt you can come through it relatively unscathed. If you are bitter and take everything personally you will come out jaded and may regret your decision to pursue this degree.

 

[Vader]

Welcome to science (and reality). If you don't like getting thrown under the bus you should stay out of science (and medicine as well). Love the jaded cynicism in this thread, telling it like it is but so few of the young ones willing to listen!

And folks... you have been in this pathway for too long when you begin having to qualify "cynicism" with the word "jaded". 😉

 

[QofQuimica]

I would prefer to say to get over yourself and appreciate the exposure you are getting and be part of the science. No one owes you anything at this point, and you have to earn your way up the food chain. Politics are part of the game, unfortunately. But if you lighten up and take things with a grain of salt you can come through it relatively unscathed. If you are bitter and take everything personally you will come out jaded and may regret your decision to pursue this degree.

Agree completely. This is basically what I was trying to say before: UG students are using the PI also. And truth be told, an UG is probably taking more from the PI than vice versa.

 

[Red Leader]

Agree completely. This is basically what I was trying to say before: UG students are using the PI also. And truth be told, an UG is probably taking more from the PI than vice versa.

I agree. So many undergrads come into the lab for the sole purpose of getting a recommendation from a PI to say they "did research" and have very little output. Most do not even push for a paper and just want to use the PI for the recc.

An inexperienced undergrad in the lab is a huge liability and must be taught from the ground up, which consumes time and resources. The irrational sense of entitlement that somehow the PI or the lab owes YOU is backwards. You are there to LEARN, to ABSORB EXPERIENCE, and if you're lucky or you run into a super nice PI, then maybe get a pub.

When a PI gives you responsibility they expect something back, namely results. Whining, crying, causing drama, etc. is not what they asked for. Also there is a clear heirarchy in research. As undergrads we are expendable and can be cut at a moment's notice.

It's all about politics. Play your cards right, play them close to your chest. To beat the game you gotta play the game.

I would prefer to say to get over yourself and appreciate the exposure you are getting and be part of the science. No one owes you anything at this point, and you have to earn your way up the food chain. Politics are part of the game, unfortunately. But if you lighten up and take things with a grain of salt you can come through it relatively unscathed. If you are bitter and take everything personally you will come out jaded and may regret your decision to pursue this degree.

I love this post!!! 👍

 

[greg12345]

My hats are off to you guys in residency who still have the same fresh mentality I had as an undergrad. You must be pathologists or dermatologists! I've actually had a very smooth ride with everything working out as it "was supposed to", have seen plenty of my good friends thrown under the bus by politics and the vagaries of science in general, not to mention residency.

 

[nancy0223]

Hi all,

I really appreciated all the helpful advises that u guys provided when I started this thread a while go. Since then, I decided to keep my head down and take up my PI's offer as the 3rd person in the project. However, things did not really work out from there. Although I'm still technically part of the team, my two "bosses" never really bothered to voluntarily involve me in any discussion of the proj nor bothered to notify me of their plans. Because I was also loaded with my senior eng. design proj at the meantime, I decided to take some time off from lab and come back when one of my "bosses" contacts me for help.
Finally, after a month & half, I was asked to notify my PI the progress of "my" project. As soon as I told him I was absent from lab for a while, my PI insisted that I reduce the # of credits I'm currently taking for this research project. When I explained the communication prob btw my bosses and I, the PI simply assumed I quitted because I was unhappy with his decision to kick me off the leadership role. Since changing credits is impossible this late in the semester, while my PI insists on it be done, I'm really lost on what to do. What I'm most disappointed with was the fact that literally no one in the lab grp bothered to contact me while I was not around although every single person noticed my absence 🙁.

 

[QofQuimica]

Obviously, your PI is pissed. You should talk to your academic advisor. At this point, you need to do some damage control so that your PI doesn't blow your GPA. After things settle down, do your best to make peace with the PI, because it sounds like you put a lot of time and effort into this lab/project. Are you planning to keep working for him over the summer? If so, hopefully you can smooth things out.

Also, I'm sure you don't mean to come across this way, but your post seems to suggest that you are blaming other people for the communication problem and not taking any responsibility for your part in it. In other words, you want the "bosses" to "voluntarily" contact you when they need something or to tell you their plans. But to be fair, you didn't go out of your way to assert yourself and find out what the plans were, either. This is your education and your career on the line here, not theirs. No one cares as much about your future as you do, so you can't rely on other people to make things happen for you. In my experience, people often interpret this passivity as you being uninterested. I'm finishing my third year of med school right now, and it works the same way on the wards as it does in the lab. Some residents really like having students, but plenty of them would just as soon forget about me if I didn't continuously go out of my way to remind them of my existence. Just something for you to think about for the next time you're in a situation like this. Hope you can work things out, and best of luck to you.

 

[Red Leader]

Hi all,

I really appreciated all the helpful advises that u guys provided when I started this thread a while go. Since then, I decided to keep my head down and take up my PI's offer as the 3rd person in the project. However, things did not really work out from there. Although I'm still technically part of the team, my two "bosses" never really bothered to voluntarily involve me in any discussion of the proj nor bothered to notify me of their plans. Because I was also loaded with my senior eng. design proj at the meantime, I decided to take some time off from lab and come back when one of my "bosses" contacts me for help.
Finally, after a month & half, I was asked to notify my PI the progress of "my" project. As soon as I told him I was absent from lab for a while, my PI insisted that I reduce the # of credits I'm currently taking for this research project. When I explained the communication prob btw my bosses and I, the PI simply assumed I quitted because I was unhappy with his decision to kick me off the leadership role. Since changing credits is impossible this late in the semester, while my PI insists on it be done, I'm really lost on what to do. What I'm most disappointed with was the fact that literally no one in the lab grp bothered to contact me while I was not around although every single person noticed my absence 🙁.

Here's some advice, stop playing the victim all the time. It's the same thing in your original post.

Take some responsibility for your life. Yes, you like the freedom that comes with being an adult but want to shed all responsibility for yourself. The world does not revolve around you, get that through our head. Then maybe next time you will be proactive enough to assert your presence in the lab instead of waiting for people to find you and push you to do something.

Everyone starts off at the bottom of the chain, some move up because they are proactive and seek things to do actively even though they are constantly shunned or rejected the first few (hundred) times, eventually their persistence will pay off and grad students/post docs in the lab will realize that and come to like you (I speak from personal experience here). Others at the bottom of the chain will not recognize their place and expect to be treated like an equal, and they will stay at the bottom or just quit.

 

[nancy0223]

Obviously, your PI is pissed. You should talk to your academic advisor. At this point, you need to do some damage control so that your PI doesn't blow your GPA. After things settle down, do your best to make peace with the PI, because it sounds like you put a lot of time and effort into this lab/project. Are you planning to keep working for him over the summer? If so, hopefully you can smooth things out.

Also, I'm sure you don't mean to come across this way, but your post seems to suggest that you are blaming other people for the communication problem and not taking any responsibility for your part in it. In other words, you want the "bosses" to "voluntarily" contact you when they need something or to tell you their plans. But to be fair, you didn't go out of your way to assert yourself and find out what the plans were, either. This is your education and your career on the line here, not theirs. No one cares as much about your future as you do, so you can't rely on other people to make things happen for you. In my experience, people often interpret this passivity as you being uninterested. I'm finishing my third year of med school right now, and it works the same way on the wards as it does in the lab. Some residents really like having students, but plenty of them would just as soon forget about me if I didn't continuously go out of my way to remind them of my existence. Just something for you to think about for the next time you're in a situation like this. Hope you can work things out, and best of luck to you.

Thanks for your kind words. I'm just tired of continuously asserting for myself for the entire year and half while I was in the lab. I honestly thought I've gotten along w/ ppl close enough there for at least one person to get concerned of my absence. And it was really hard for me to remain motivated while no one even cares abt my existence especially since I was carrying a heavy courseload at the same time. What I have done so far is basically letting the PI know how I felt abt this whole situation and hopefully something will work out from there. Although I could technically work in the lab for the summer, I'm not sure if that is the best soln at this pt especially since my collaboration with my "bosses" have not gone particularly well.

 

[QofQuimica]

Here's some advice, stop playing the victim all the time. It's the same thing in your original post.

Take some responsibility for your life. Yes, you like the freedom that comes with being an adult but want to shed all responsibility for yourself. The world does not revolve around you, get that through our head. Then maybe next time you will be proactive enough to assert your presence in the lab instead of waiting for people to find you and push you to do something.

Everyone starts off at the bottom of the chain, some move up because they are proactive and seek things to do actively even though they are constantly shunned or rejected the first few (hundred) times, eventually their persistence will pay off and grad students/post docs in the lab will realize that and come to like you (I speak from personal experience here). Others at the bottom of the chain will not recognize their place and expect to be treated like an equal, and they will stay at the bottom or just quit.

Come on, dude, that's pretty harsh. No need to kick the poor girl while she's down. Especially if she comes from a different country/culture, these skills aren't always easy to develop, and there are plenty of people who are innately shy. It's great if being outgoing and assertive comes naturally to you, but some people really have to work at it.