Better residency = better pay?

[Mayssy]

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So I know I'm a long way away from thinking about residency, but I was reading through some threads and wondered if getting a 'better' more prestigious residency (Hopkins, etc) is more pay than say a residency in inner city Camden.

I would personally pick the latter because I would rather serve where I'm needed the most, but is there a fiscal difference?

 

[TexasPhysician]

Haven't you heard the famous quote:
Top 1/3 of your med school class make the best teachers/researchers
Middle 1/3 are the best doctors
Bottom 1/3 make the most money

If this is the case, you might make more money NOT going to a top school.

 

[RxnMan]

No. Frequently the most prestidigious residencies have a glut of applicants, so they can skimp on bennies and pay, whereas less-well-known residencies may struggle to fill, and have to use higher pay and better benefits (free food at cafeterias) to lure applicants.

 

[ZagDoc]

Resident salaries are much, much more dependent on location of said residency and cost of living than any "prestige" the residency may hold.

And you'll feel a bit different about said salary when you have $200,000 in debt and a 6.8% interest rate staring you down than "serving where you're needed most." And really, residency is not about service at all. You do that as a fully licensed physician if you're so inclined. Residency is about getting the training you need to do what you want with your career.

< /soapbox >

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

No. Frequently the most prestidigious residencies have a glut of applicants, so they can skimp on bennies and pay, whereas less-well-known residencies may struggle to fill, and have to use higher pay and better benefits (free food at cafeterias) to lure applicants.

I know it was a typo but it made me and reminded me of one of my all-time favorite movies.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bd5YUEOwlE[/YOUTUBE]

Post is spot on though. Plus you gotta consider the fact that your $45K has a lot more buying power in Montgomery, AL than it does in Boston, MA.

But talking longterm, your better residency program puts you in a position to get a better fellowship and thus an exponentially higher salary over the course of your lifetime. Note that I say 'puts you in a position', because like everything else this ultimately depends on your performance.

 

[Mayssy]

Haven't you heard the famous quote:
Top 1/3 of your med school class make the best teachers/researchers
Middle 1/3 are the best doctors
Bottom 1/3 make the most money

If this is the case, you might make more money NOT going to a top school.

Nah I've never heard of that lol

Resident salaries are much, much more dependent on location of said residency and cost of living than any "prestige" the residency may hold.

And you'll feel a bit different about said salary when you have $200,000 in debt and a 6.8% interest rate staring you down than "serving where you're needed most." And really, residency is not about service at all. You do that as a fully licensed physician if you're so inclined. Residency is about getting the training you need to do what you want with your career.

$200,000 and 7% interest...
Aren't there programs that will repay your tuition if you agree to 'serve' at their specific hospital? Doesn't that mean that some places really need the residents 😕

 

[chessknt]

So do better residencies=land higher paying jobs after residency?

Aren't there programs that will repay your tuition if you agree to 'serve' at their specific hospital? Doesn't that mean that some places really need the residents 😕

Unless you do military or NHSC program (where you are forced into primary care), then no. There are various programs that will pay some loans back, but I think full payment of your loans in exchange for service is almost nonexistent.

 

[Mayssy]

Haha, well I guess I can waste less time looking for stuff like that when the time comes then 🙂

 

[njbmd]

So I know I'm a long way away from thinking about residency, but I was reading through some threads and wondered if getting a 'better' more prestigious residency (Hopkins, etc) is more pay than say a residency in inner city Camden.

I would personally pick the latter because I would rather serve where I'm needed the most, but is there a fiscal difference?

In general, residency pay is linked to cost of living where the residency program is located. Places like New York City where the cost of a studio apartment in Manhattan is in the $2600/month range (if you can find one) will generally have a "living allowance tacked onto the residency earnings.

You can actually forget about paying back your loans on residency pay because most residency programs start around $43K - $47K. You will barely have enough to pay for housing and food let alone much else. .

In the meantime, the interest on those loans that you took out will be accruing so that you have nice payment when you complete your training. The longer your training, the more you have to pay back with the interest included. Will you be able to do this? Probably but you won't have the country club lifestyle while you are paying back your loans.

 

[Mobius1985]

As an anecdote: A student two years above me matched into a Boston teaching hospital and his salary will be $54,000. He found a one-bedroom apartment three blocks away for $1900/month (I have no idea if this is typical for the area, or what a studio would have cost). If he'd matched in my smaller city, he'd have gotten $45,000, but a brand new one-bedroom apt would be $600.

 

[badasshairday]

In the meantime, the interest on those loans that you took out will be accruing so that you have nice payment when you complete your training. The longer your training, the more you have to pay back with the interest included. Will you be able to do this? Probably but you won't have the country club lifestyle while you are paying back your loans.

So true, and this current generation of students are getting screwed big time. At least when you finished med school and training you had less than 100k in debt and interest rates of 2-3%. We are now at 6.8%, and going on in the range of 150-200K or even higher debt. Plus, as we know, they keep cutting reimbursement.

My advice to all pre-meds, go to the cheaper school and be extremely frugal to minimize your soon to be massive debt.

 

[ngkats]

So true, and this current generation of students are getting screwed big time. At least when you finished med school and training you had less than 100k in debt and interest rates of 2-3%. We are now at 6.8%, and going on in the range of 150-200K or even higher debt. Plus, as we know, they keep cutting reimbursement.

My advice to all pre-meds, go to the cheaper school and be extremely frugal to minimize your soon to be massive debt.

I think we're forgetting about the 8.5% GradPLUS loans. I'll have about 50k of those by the time I'm done (on top of nearly 200k 6.8% stafford).

 

[muireinin]

what cracks me up about this is that my roommates want to hire a maid to clean our tiny apartment (we're all medstudents). i think some people are comfortable with a lot of debt. it's mind-boggling

 

[synapse lapse]

Nope, residency salary depends mostly on location. You can go to FREIDA (https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/viewProgramSearch.do) and search for your specialty/desired location, click under employment, and see the salaries for each year (these are not always 100% accurate and can change, but are roughly accurate). Anyhow, most places pay $40k-50k starting with about 3% raise per year.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Yeah...resident pay, roughly equal - to the point that a lot of people don't even consider it a factor in their decision. I did look at two programs in the same city though and one paid close to $7k more per year than the other, which I definitely took notice of. Fringe benefits can be widely variable though and things like how much residents have to pay for health insurance, on-call meal allowances, and parking and so on can be significant. Most programs also have some sort of unique benefits - at Utah, residents get discounted season passes to the ski resorts, at Ohio State residents have a faculty appointment which means access to football tickets, and other attractions in Columbus (like the Jack Nicklaus designed Alumni golf courses).

On the back side though: for fellowship - fellows make the same salary as the concurrent residents in other fields make. If you're in the second year of your Cardiology fellowship (PGY-5), you're going to make the same as the 5th year general surgery resident.

For attendings - payscales continue to be very location dependent. Regional differences are pronounced. But good residency and fellowship programs are found throughout the country, with little correlation to salary trends. Of note, since the 'prestige' question is generally limited to those in academic settings, those salaries are lower than those for private practice physicians. Further, I don't believe I've ever seen anything where more prestigious medical centers pay more than less prestigious ones...especially if you were to control for cost of living differences.

 

[Mr hawkings]

what cracks me up about this is that my roommates want to hire a maid to clean our tiny apartment (we're all medstudents). i think some people are comfortable with a lot of debt. it's mind-boggling

 

[deleted244469]

In general, residency pay is linked to cost of living where the residency program is located. Places like New York City where the cost of a studio apartment in Manhattan is in the $2600/month range (if you can find one) will generally have a "living allowance tacked onto the residency earnings.

You can actually forget about paying back your loans on residency pay because most residency programs start around $43K - $47K. You will barely have enough to pay for housing and food let alone much else. .

In the meantime, the interest on those loans that you took out will be accruing so that you have nice payment when you complete your training. The longer your training, the more you have to pay back with the interest included. Will you be able to do this? Probably but you won't have the country club lifestyle while you are paying back your loans.

If you dont mind me asking, how is it difficult to eat and be housed with $43-47k? Unless you are talking about living in Manhattan? That is a lot of money, considering people live and are housed with half of that.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

If you dont mind me asking, how is it difficult to eat and be housed with $43-47k? Unless you are talking about living in Manhattan? That is a lot of money, considering people live and are housed with half of that.

WHat if they have a family, student loans, maybe they have to buy all new furniture, maybe they need a new car....it all depends.

 

[durty]

i think some people are comfortable with a lot of debt. it's mind-boggling

mind bottling?

If you dont mind me asking, how is it difficult to eat and be housed with $43-47k? Unless you are talking about living in Manhattan? That is a lot of money, considering people live and are housed with half of that.

+1. I feel like $47k is a lot. I was under the impression that residents made more like $30-$35k and I was comfortable with that because lots of teachers make around that their whole lives and get by just fine.

People just need to learn to save and then pay what they can afford off their loans; instead of throwing in the towel and saying "its too much I'll just put it off a few more years until I'm making full doctor pay". Just my 2 cents.

 

[tdittyx2x3]

I feel like $47k is a lot. I was under the impression that residents made more like $30-$35k and I was comfortable with that because lots of teachers make around that their whole lives and get by just fine.

47k is NOT a lot. 5k for taxes. Plus take into account the kind of education you'll have had behind you.. 8 years of higher education. Then factor in the number of hours you'll be putting in and it comes out to somewhere around $10/hr. For the importance of your work, that is pennies. Now take into account age during that time.. late 20's early 30's for most people. You'll begin to want things. A new car, a home. Family starting time. Life gets more expensive every year after that.

People just need to learn to save and then pay what they can afford off their loans; instead of throwing in the towel and saying "its too much I'll just put it off a few more years until I'm making full doctor pay". Just my 2 cents.

What?? Even if you chipped away at it with say a $1000/month.. which would be pretty impressive, you'd barely be making a dent and your lifestyle would suffer tremendously. You're going to get a 300-600% raise in 3-4 years where you'll be able to pay off much bigger chunks with little to zero lifestyle impact.

 

[nogolfinsnow]

mind bottling?



+1. I feel like $47k is a lot. I was under the impression that residents made more like $30-$35k and I was comfortable with that because lots of teachers make around that their whole lives and get by just fine.

People just need to learn to save and then pay what they can afford off their loans; instead of throwing in the towel and saying "its too much I'll just put it off a few more years until I'm making full doctor pay". Just my 2 cents.

Reasons my mom likes being a teacher:
1) she definitely makes >35k, even being a public school teacher at an inner-city school
2) Week off at Thanksgiving, 3 weeks off at Xmas, Week off at spring break
3) SUMMER VACATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When during residency do you not work for 2-3 months and still get paid? Oh, you don't?
4) Not having $250,000 debt incurred to become a teacher
5) Dinner at home every night with the family (read no overnight call)
6) No 80hr work week, even when she brings a lot of work home.

45k isn't jack with a family and massive debt and working 80hrs/week. What if a company dependent on unionized labor tried to get their employees to average 80hrs/week after making them pay several hundred thousand dollars for the privilege of working there and then paid them about ten bucks an hour? My guess is it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[heysexylady]

47k is NOT a lot. 5k for taxes. Plus take into account the kind of education you'll have had behind you.. 8 years of higher education. Then factor in the number of hours you'll be putting in and it comes out to somewhere around $10/hr. For the importance of your work, that is pennies. Now take into account age during that time.. late 20's early 30's for most people. You'll begin to want things. A new car, a home. Family starting time. Life gets more expensive every year after that.



What?? Even if you chipped away at it with say a $1000/month.. which would be pretty impressive, you'd barely be making a dent and your lifestyle would suffer tremendously. You're going to get a 300-600% raise in 3-4 years where you'll be able to pay off much bigger chunks with little to zero lifestyle impact.

Why do you need a new car...used one is just fine or just drive the one that you have now.

New home....renting is perfectly fine and if you can't afford to have a family don't have one.

If you do decided to have a family....why should all the financial burden be placed on you....let your partner get a job.

Honestly, if both of you guys are make 45 grand a year...you come out at 90 grand/yr before takes and so after taxes you make around 60 grand a year.

Honestly...you guys need to stop crying 45 grand a year is good money and if you can't live cheaply well its your problem and you are going to have more issues than just student loans.

 

[flip26]

I know it was a typo but it made me and reminded me of one of my all-time favorite movies.
[YOUTUBE]7bd5YUEOwlE[/YOUTUBE]

Post is spot on though. Plus you gotta consider the fact that your $45K has a lot more buying power in Montgomery, AL than it does in Boston, MA.

But talking longterm, your better residency program puts you in a position to get a better fellowship and thus an exponentially higher salary over the course of your lifetime. Note that I say 'puts you in a position', because like everything else this ultimately depends on your performance.

Umm, citations, please?

 

[dilated]

+1. I feel like $47k is a lot. I was under the impression that residents made more like $30-$35k and I was comfortable with that because lots of teachers make around that their whole lives and get by just fine.

People just need to learn to save and then pay what they can afford off their loans; instead of throwing in the towel and saying "its too much I'll just put it off a few more years until I'm making full doctor pay". Just my 2 cents.

Have you noticed that it's the medical students saying 47k is a lot and the residents saying it's not? Perhaps they have slightly more information than you do. Don't worry, you'll have your chance to realize it's not that much in a few years.

 

[SoCuteMD]

mind bottling?



+1. I feel like $47k is a lot. I was under the impression that residents made more like $30-$35k and I was comfortable with that because lots of teachers make around that their whole lives and get by just fine.

People just need to learn to save and then pay what they can afford off their loans; instead of throwing in the towel and saying "its too much I'll just put it off a few more years until I'm making full doctor pay". Just my 2 cents.

Oh, yes. I should save. Instead of, you know, paying off (little bits of) my student loans. And, you know, paying my rent/mortgage, car insurance. And eating? Who needs to eat?

47k is NOT a lot. 5k for taxes. Plus take into account the kind of education you'll have had behind you.. 8 years of higher education. Then factor in the number of hours you'll be putting in and it comes out to somewhere around $10/hr. For the importance of your work, that is pennies. Now take into account age during that time.. late 20's early 30's for most people. You'll begin to want things. A new car, a home. Family starting time. Life gets more expensive every year after that.



What?? Even if you chipped away at it with say a $1000/month.. which would be pretty impressive, you'd barely be making a dent and your lifestyle would suffer tremendously. You're going to get a 300-600% raise in 3-4 years where you'll be able to pay off much bigger chunks with little to zero lifestyle impact.

Try 12k in taxes, social security and medicare per yr. Granted I'm living in a state with high taxes, but 5k would be incredibly low!

Why do you need a new car...used one is just fine or just drive the one that you have now.

New home....renting is perfectly fine and if you can't afford to have a family don't have one.

If you do decided to have a family....why should all the financial burden be placed on you....let your partner get a job.

Honestly, if both of you guys are make 45 grand a year...you come out at 90 grand/yr before takes and so after taxes you make around 60 grand a year.

Honestly...you guys need to stop crying 45 grand a year is good money and if you can't live cheaply well its your problem and you are going to have more issues than just student loans.

1) used car/new car - still have to pay for it. Actually a new car that is leased might cost you the least of all those but it's going to be at least 200/month for something reliable.

2) Rent or own, you still have to pay. Where I live now it's cheaper to own but it's still not cheap (1k/mo for a 1 bedroom)

3) If you do have a family and both spouses go to work, childcare is very $$$$$. Your partner will have to make at least 30k after taxes, etc. are taken out to justify going to work in order to cover childcare, commuting (2nd car + gas and insurance), additional food expenses.

45k a year is ok, but not great considering that we're no longer fresh out of college. It's certainly not fair compensation for the amount of education we've completed. Essentially we've delayed the onset of financial maturity - it's now time to catch up on investments, retirement savings, etc. Even if we don't have families NOW, for most of us that is coming down the pike (rapidly) as a significant expenditure.

Certainly it's possible to live on 45k (my program pays a bit more), but it's more of a challenge now than it was in my early 20s. As one of my friends said, "If my 30 year-old self had told my 21 year-old self what I'd be making at 30, my 21 year-old self would have jumped for joy. My 30 year-old self wishes she still had that optimism." Every month there are surprise expenses - fixing my 10 year-old car (at least it's long since paid off!), a plane ticket and wedding present for a friend, a birthday gift for mom/dad/sister (my friends and I have a "no gifts" agreement, the only exception being weddings), an unexpected electric bill (stupid central air), etc.

 

[Lanvin]

Have you noticed that it's the medical students saying 47k is a lot and the residents saying it's not? Perhaps they have slightly more information than you do. Don't worry, you'll have your chance to realize it's not that much in a few years.

Perhaps it's because residents are more aware of the need to pay back a large educational debt, while medical students are more concerned with finding some spare cash in their 12-15k/year in living allowance so they can go out with their friends.

So 45-50k may be a lot of money, but it just isn't enough to dampen the stress of a 200k+ education and starting a family. The key is understanding that this is a relative figure. Relative to the amount on money you are used to living on vs. the amount of money you feel is reasonable for 7yr+ post-graduate education.

 

[heysexylady]

Oh, yes. I should save. Instead of, you know, paying off (little bits of) my student loans. And, you know, paying my rent/mortgage, car insurance. And eating? Who needs to eat?


Every month there are surprise expenses - fixing my 10 year-old car (at least it's long since paid off!), a plane ticket and wedding present for a friend, a birthday gift for mom/dad/sister (my friends and I have a "no gifts" agreement, the only exception being weddings), an unexpected electric bill (stupid central air), etc.

If you can't afford it...don't buy it your true friends and family would understand it if you don't get anything.

cook in...food is cheap .....go to some cheap food place stay away from whole foods or krogers.

What would you need a plane ticket for...if you can't afford it don't fly.

How can you have an expected electrical bill...don't use the A/c if you know you are broke and in debt.

Half of the stuff that you mentioned are unnecessary costs....but the stuff about day car and insurance I agree can be expensive.

If house insurance is too much....rent!!

It is so simple people.

 

[SoCuteMD]

If you can't afford it...don't buy it your true friends and family would understand it if you don't get anything.

cook in...food is cheap .....go to some cheap food place stay away from whole foods or krogers.

What would you need a plane ticket for...if you can't afford it don't fly.

How can you have an expected electrical bill...don't use the A/c if you know you are broke and in debt.

Half of the stuff that you mentioned are unnecessary costs....but the stuff about day car and insurance I agree can be expensive.

If house insurance is too much....rent!!

It is so simple people.

Thanks for the financial counseling. You'll notice that NOWHERE did I say i was broke. I'm not, actually. You keep saying "don't buy a home" but I have to say that is the single best financial decision I have made in the lats 4 years. I bought a small, underpriced condo which I'm now selling for a profit.


a) It's poor etiquette not to acknowledge an invitation with a gift. When I have the time, I get creative. I helped my friend paint and decorate her house as my wedding gift to them. Unfortunately as a resident I will no longer have the time to do so.

b) I'd like to see my family at some point, so plane tickets are a necessity. Do I have to buy plane tickets to a wedding? No. Do I want to enjoy the chance to see my friends on some of the happiest, most exciting days of their lives? Yes. While you may argue that these things are a "luxury," I believe that friends are a necessity. Part of maintaining friendships is reaching out to show you care, so yes - these things do cost money, but I definitely put them in the necessity category.

c) You are clearly clueless. Although I cut back on the A/C and heat as much as I possibly can, as a resident (or clinical medical student) the only times of day you may have to sleep are when the sun is up and it's HOT. You can either let yourself be hot, miserable, and tired or turn on the A/C to cool your place down to 80 and hope for a little bit of sleep. (Also, I did get a TOTAL surprise electric bill when I moved into my current place and used the window A/C at night only. I didn't realize that it was more of an energy hog than my old apartment's central A/C. I moved in right after the billing cycle started, so used it for a little over a month before the bill came - it was $250!!!)

d) Healthy food is not cheap. Sure, I could live off ramen and crap like that, but then my blood pressure medications would ruin my budget. Eating a good, balanced diet of fruit and vegetables, low in processed starches with just enough protein can easily run you $300/month. Just my 7 servings of fruits/vegetables daily costs me about $40/week, and I don't shop at Whole Foods or even Trader Joe's.

e) I didn't say anything about "house" insurance, but even if you rent you should get (and many places require) that you take out a renter's policy. Renting may be the same price (or even MORE expensive in some cases) than buying when all expenses are factored in.

Please note that I never said I "couldn't live" off of 45k. I was simply making the point that a physician's 45k is not comparable to a teacher's 35k (I've never met a teacher making that little, FWIW). My student loan payments ALONE will eat up about 6k of my income at the very least.

You are clearly missing the point I'm trying to make. Sure, you can live like a college student on 45k and be fine. At the point that we have doctoral degrees, should we REALLY be expected to live like students?

 

[deleted244469]

That is true when you factor in the salary vs. hours worked. But the salary itself is alright if your single I suppose. Teachers here in NC make about that (Actually a little less I believe), and they all are fine and have families. Your spouse has a job too right (If you do have a family)? Doesn't he make money? So its not like your family is living off of the $40ish K alone. Unless you are a single parent, which would be very tough for a med intern.

 

[SoCuteMD]

That is true when you factor in the salary vs. hours worked. But the salary itself is alright if your single I suppose. Teachers here in NC make about that (Actually a little less I believe), and they all are fine and have families. Your spouse has a job too right (If you do have a family)? Doesn't he make money? So its not like your family is living off of the $40ish K alone. Unless you are a single parent, which would be very tough for a med intern.

Did you miss the whole "if you have to pay for daycare, etc." conversation? If not, I'll summarize. Your spouse needs to bring home at least 30k after taxes to justify the expense of working outside the home (there are MANY discussions and number-crunchings of this, I'm not pulling it out of my @$$). I have a few friends who have decided that the spouse will stay home for the duration of residency based on the expenses they would incur if they were a two-income family.

Teachers also don't have nearly as much student loan debt (which, even on the easiest income-based plans, payments can be at least $400/mo). Most of them are included in their union's or district's retirement plan. I don't get that from my program, that's another contribution I'll have to make. In addition, they've had years to build and save a little money, possibly create a rainy day fund. Most medical students are lucky if their rainy day fund includes $5!

Also, NC is one thing. The Northeast is MUCH more expensive than NC, without a comparable bump in salary for residents.

 

[deleted244469]

I know your not pulling it out of your butt, I believe you. Im not trying to piss you off 🙂. I didn't see the daycare part.

So I guess in part it depends on where you live as well. I am from the Northeast originally, and visit occasionally, so I know how expensive crap is there.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I know your not pulling it out of your butt, I believe you. Im not trying to piss you off 🙂. I didn't see the daycare part.

Sorry, I guess this topic gets me really worked up. Especially when people act like a financial ***** for not thinking 45k is a lot of money. I will say that before medical school I used to live in NC on 30k and life was good! I had everything I needed (included a brand-new used car) and I still saved about 25% of my monthly income. Now that 4 years has passed, the car is long-since paid off (before I started medical school), and I've made it through medical school without a single penny of credit card debt, it's much harder to get by on that amount. Taxes are much higher where I live now, car insurance (on my now 10 year old car) is double what it was in NC, gas is about 25% more expensive, food costs a lot more, etc. When you add all of that up, you start to realize that it just doesn't go as far as you would think.

 

[deleted244469]

Very true. Its all economics, inflation and the region you live in then.

 

[footcloud]

I'm confused about something here....supposedly residents in more "sought for" hospitals/locations/residency placements get less pay because everyone wants it. And someone mentioned this same logic follows for attendings...I find that hard to believe. There has to be SOME kind of pull besides the location/prestige that is pulling people towards Hopkins/Mayo/the likes. For example, the root of derm being competitive is great lifestyle with lots of money. Sure, you could say an unproportionally high amount of people are interested in the skin...but that seems sort of weak.

 

[PhillyBoyInTN]

My wife and I have 3 children but by the time I'm ready to start Med school (and into residency) she'll be a NP.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I'm confused about something here....supposedly residents in more "sought for" hospitals/locations/residency placements get less pay because everyone wants it. And someone mentioned this same logic follows for attendings...I find that hard to believe. There has to be SOME kind of pull besides the location/prestige that is pulling people towards Hopkins/Mayo/the likes. For example, the root of derm being competitive is great lifestyle with lots of money. Sure, you could say an unproportionally high amount of people are interested in the skin...but that seems sort of weak.

The more desirable the location/the more prestigious the hospital (for attendings), in general the lower the pay. It's supply and demand. If the group can pay you 180K, why would they offer 250K? Trust me, it is the research possibilities and prestige that draw people to Hopkins/Mass Gen/Mayo, not the $$$. As an example, some of the lowest paying geographic areas in my specialty are Boston, NYC, and SF. It's no coincidence that those are some of the most popular metropolitan areas.

In general this does hold true for some of the residency spots as well. Some of the most "prestigious" programs have lower pay and less to offer in terms of benefits. Community programs tend to offer better benefits and better pay as part of a recruitment effort.

The draw toward derm is the money and the lifestyle. Trust me, skin is NOT that fascinating. Thus, derm self-selects a group for whom (in general) money and lifestyle are a priority. Still, those who go into academic dermatology will take a pay cut as compared to those who do private practice. I'd guess that derm overall has fewer people interested in academic positions, though. I have no real evidence to support that. Also, dermatology salaries may be a little better in highly competitive markets like NYC and LA because of the cash-only nature of many of the procedures. Thus, you can't really compare the pay scale of dermatology to that of other medical specialties other than maybe plastic surgery. The economics of it are completely different.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Sorry, I guess this topic gets me really worked up. Especially when people act like a financial ***** for not thinking 45k is a lot of money. I will say that before medical school I used to live in NC on 30k and life was good! I had everything I needed (included a brand-new used car) and I still saved about 25% of my monthly income. Now that 4 years has passed, the car is long-since paid off (before I started medical school), and I've made it through medical school without a single penny of credit card debt, it's much harder to get by on that amount. Taxes are much higher where I live now, car insurance (on my now 10 year old car) is double what it was in NC, gas is about 25% more expensive, food costs a lot more, etc. When you add all of that up, you start to realize that it just doesn't go as far as you would think.

What? You sound like a used-car salesman. I have this BRAND NEW-----slightly used car for sale......? Huh? Are you selling ocean front property in Arizona too? - I love that song.

Since when is 45k a lot of money? It certainly is better than average, but middle school teachers can make that and get 4 months off every year. 45k pre-taxes will get you by, and it may be plenty for a single guy.

I haven't done the math, but I doubt 45k at 60-80 hours/week with 2 weeks vacation and minus taxes ends up being much more than minimum wage.

 

[kac714]

d) Healthy food is not cheap. Sure, I could live off ramen and crap like that, but then my blood pressure medications would ruin my budget. Eating a good, balanced diet of fruit and vegetables, low in processed starches with just enough protein can easily run you $300/month. Just my 7 servings of fruits/vegetables daily costs me about $40/week, and I don't shop at Whole Foods or even Trader Joe's.

\Not sure if you know, but trader joes has really cheap food, and its yummy!

 

[turkeyjerky]

d) Healthy food is not cheap. Sure, I could live off ramen and crap like that, but then my blood pressure medications would ruin my budget. Eating a good, balanced diet of fruit and vegetables, low in processed starches with just enough protein can easily run you $300/month. Just my 7 servings of fruits/vegetables daily costs me about $40/week, and I don't shop at Whole Foods or even Trader Joe's.

\Not sure if you know, but trader joes has really cheap food, and its yummy!

yeah, but it's still more pricey than walmart or the like. great for coffee and wine though!

 

[45408]

what cracks me up about this is that my roommates want to hire a maid to clean our tiny apartment (we're all medstudents). i think some people are clueless with a lot of debt. it's mind-boggling

Fixed that for ya.

 

[45408]

If you can't afford it...don't buy it your true friends and family would understand it if you don't get anything.

cook in...food is cheap .....go to some cheap food place stay away from whole foods or krogers.

What would you need a plane ticket for...if you can't afford it don't fly.

How can you have an expected electrical bill...don't use the A/c if you know you are broke and in debt.

Half of the stuff that you mentioned are unnecessary costs....but the stuff about day car and insurance I agree can be expensive.

If house insurance is too much....rent!!

It is so simple people.

this is the kind of post I expect in hSDN or maybe pre-allo, but come on. "If you can't afford it, don't fly." Sure thing, bud, I'll just skip my brother's wedding. IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT!

There's always something you NEED to pay. My wife has $400/year contacts (her vision is very poor and requires specialty lenses), her car just needed $320 to pass emissions, the registration was another $86, etc. You won't be starving on $45K/year, but it really chaps my ass when people don't realize that it's really a fairly simple lifestyle. My wife makes about $60K/year, and we drive two low-end imports that are 9 and 10 years old, we live in a 1BR apartment, we haven't gone on vacation in almost two years (other than having to fly across the country for my brother's wedding, rent a tux, buy a bridesmaid dress, stay in a hotel = $1500), etc.

At some point, it starts getting a little tiresome to have a beater car, Ramen noodles, and three roommates in your 2BR apartment. That seems foreign to the pre-meds, but by the time you're a resident, you want to be a grown-up.

 

[SoCuteMD]

d) Healthy food is not cheap. Sure, I could live off ramen and crap like that, but then my blood pressure medications would ruin my budget. Eating a good, balanced diet of fruit and vegetables, low in processed starches with just enough protein can easily run you $300/month. Just my 7 servings of fruits/vegetables daily costs me about $40/week, and I don't shop at Whole Foods or even Trader Joe's.

\Not sure if you know, but trader joes has really cheap food, and its yummy!

I tried some of Trader Joe's cheaper foods. I'm not kidding when i say that I gained 5 lbs almost overnight. Never more than that, but it didn't go away until I cut that s--- out of my diet. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but their cheaper stuff tastes yummy but makes me feel gross.

this is the kind of post I expect in hSDN or maybe pre-allo, but come on. "If you can't afford it, don't fly." Sure thing, bud, I'll just skip my brother's wedding. IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT!

There's always something you NEED to pay. My wife has $400/year contacts (her vision is very poor and requires specialty lenses), her car just needed $320 to pass emissions, the registration was another $86, etc. You won't be starving on $45K/year, but it really chaps my ass when people don't realize that it's really a fairly simple lifestyle. My wife makes about $60K/year, and we drive two low-end imports that are 9 and 10 years old, we live in a 1BR apartment, we haven't gone on vacation in almost two years (other than having to fly across the country for my brother's wedding, rent a tux, buy a bridesmaid dress, stay in a hotel = $1500), etc.

At some point, it starts getting a little tiresome to have a beater car, Ramen noodles, and three roommates in your 2BR apartment. That seems foreign to the pre-meds, but by the time you're a resident, you want to be a grown-up.

Come on, just skip your brother's wedding - if he's REALLY family, he'll understand!

 

[badasshairday]

At some point, it starts getting a little tiresome to have a beater car, Ramen noodles, and three roommates in your 2BR apartment. That seems foreign to the pre-meds, but by the time you're a resident, you want to be a grown-up.

Truth.

 

[DrJD]

New home....renting is perfectly fine and if you can't afford to have a family don't have one.

Haha, I like this one... No problem, never mind that if you waited till you could truly "afford" it then you'd be starting to have a family in your mid thirties, haha

Or if you meet the person you want to marry just tell them to come back in 8 years when you can afford to marry them, I mean come on? Just don't have one?

Anyway, all of you who are saying that 45k isn't much when you have 250K in loans, a mortgage, a family, etc. 👍 My guess is most of you are further along, or worked for a while before medical school and realize how freakin' fast that money goes.

To everyone saying, no problem eat Ramen blah blah blah 👎 You are all so naive! You won't be wanting to eat Ramen with your wife and two kids when you are 32 years old, man alive... You are the same students who think that its okay to have doctor's salaries slashed because you shouldn't become a doctor unless you just want to serve people while living in a shaq.

 

[kac714]

I tried some of Trader Joe's cheaper foods. I'm not kidding when i say that I gained 5 lbs almost overnight. Never more than that, but it didn't go away until I cut that s--- out of my diet. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but their cheaper stuff tastes yummy but makes me feel gross.



Come on, just skip your brother's wedding - if he's REALLY family, he'll understand!

their cereal is great, as is their reduced fat string cheese, frozen veggies, etc... i'm pretty pathological about reading nutrition labels which helps.

I think that different people have different definitions of how much money THEY can live on- its pretty personal. It also depends on how you grew up, etc. But I do think everyone will agree that for the hours worked, 45k is not that much.

 

[45408]

their cereal is great, as is their reduced fat string cheese, frozen veggies, etc... i'm pretty pathological about reading nutrition labels which helps.

I think that different people have different definitions of how much money THEY can live on- its pretty personal. It also depends on how you grew up, etc. But I do think everyone will agree that for the hours worked, 45k is not that much.

That's why I tell people that residents are paid around $10 an hour, rather than saying they're paid $50K/year. It puts it in perspective, because virtually everyone in a hospital is making over $10/hr. The aides usually start at $12-13/hr around here, and the nurses are making $22-30/hr.

 

[45408]

Haha, I like this one... No problem, never mind that if you waited till you could truly "afford" it then you'd be starting to have a family in your mid thirties, haha

Or if you meet the person you want to marry just tell them to come back in 8 years when you can afford to marry them, I mean come on? Just don't have one?

Never mind that if you do an MSTP and a long residency, you can easily be 35 before you're making more than that $45-55K/year. It's okay, you'll be fertile forever, right??

 

[Gold 5]

That is true when you factor in the salary vs. hours worked. But the salary itself is alright if your single I suppose. Teachers here in NC make about that (Actually a little less I believe), and they all are fine and have families. Your spouse has a job too right (If you do have a family)? Doesn't he make money? So its not like your family is living off of the $40ish K alone. Unless you are a single parent, which would be very tough for a med intern.

The big perk being a teacher is that you can have another job on the side for extra mola.

 

[confuse]

I have decided very early on that cost of living will be an important factor in residency selection. Since I would like to settle down where I do my residency, it's even more important.

 

[Gold 5]

My guess is most of you are further along, or worked for a while before medical school and realize how freakin' fast that money goes.

To everyone saying, no problem eat Ramen blah blah blah 👎 You are all so naive! You won't be wanting to eat Ramen with your wife and two kids when you are 32 years old, man alive... You are the same students who think that its okay to have doctor's salaries slashed because you shouldn't become a doctor unless you just want to serve people while living in a shaq.

Oh so true. The initial check looks so nice until the tax man cometh.

Whenever I read the folks trying to tell me how much I should be paid I just laugh. I never understood why docs need to take a pay cut but everyone else in the world deserves a pay raise er.. except those evil bankers 😉