Biggest humanitarian scandal of the 21st century?

[dhb]

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Let's all feel good with our smart phones and computers filled with Congolese coltan.
Kagame studied at West Point.
USA!

 

[pgg]

I watched this a couple days ago when you first posted it. Wasn't really sure how I wanted to respond, but thought it deserved a response.

It certainly is tragic. Maybe the rest of the world, including the United States, shares some responsibility for the state of affairs in Congo. But ultimately, these are Africans murdering and torturing other Africans, and there's a limit to how much guilt I'm going to accept, and how much support I would lend to intervention there.


We're 16 years into Afghanistan. It began (appropriately and justly) as a military response to a nation led by a regime that gave aid and shelter to an organization that attacked us. We could have killed every male who stood taller than a wagon wheel, salted the earth, and left. We didn't. We have worked extraordinarily hard, we have spent vast sums of money, and we have suffered many deaths and many more wounded, in what has absolutely been a good-faith effort to help the Afghanis establish their own democracy, rebuild their economy, expand rights for women and ethnic/religious minorities, and train and equip their own police and military forces so they could take care of themselves. It's not entirely altruism of course; we desire stability in Afghanistan and the surrounding nations in order to reduce the risk of future attacks on our own nation, our allies, and our interests abroad.

And yet, just today, a bunch of Afghanis attacked the Save The Children NGO in Jalalabad and killed a bunch aid workers.

Last weekend, a bunch of Afghanis laid siege to the International Hotel in Kabul and killed 22 people, including 4 Americans.

Now there's another scandal concerning widespread sexual abuse of Afghani boys by the Afghani security forces. Of course, it's being reported as our failure and our fault: How The U.S. Military Ignored Child Sexual Abuse In Afghanistan For Years. Our military trainers continue to attempt to give the Afghan security forces the skills, tools, discipline, order, sense of purpose, pride of self-reliance, to serve their country and to protect their people and yet it's somehow our fault that they haven't excised the rotting tumor of their culture that permits the systematic rape of prepubescent boys (their own children!).

I've spent more than a year of my life in Afghanistan, including several months in Jalalabad, that place where a bunch of Afghanis murdered a bunch of Save The Children aid workers today. I confess a little fatigue when it comes to listening to the world heap blame upon the United States.

I'm all out of guilt or concern or regret for what we woulda coulda shoulda done in Afghanistan. They've had 16 years of our blood and treasure and they haven't been able to get it together. It's still Afghans murdering and torturing other Afghans. Baby boys who were being born the first time I set foot in that country are presently becoming military-age "men" and I have little faith that they won't murder or torture other Afghans, or be murdered or tortured by other Afghans.


Is there any reason to believe that intervention in Congo would turn out any better?


Today one of our allies in the middle east (Turkey) was attacked by some Kurds from Syria. Some rockets hit a mosque and a house, killing some people. The Kurds, of course, are a group we've supported for a few decades now, ever since Saddam gassed a bunch of them. Had we not intervened to protect them with no-fly zones and other aid between 1991 and 2003, Saddam surely would've scoured them from the face of the earth. The Turks hate the Kurds, and oppress them, because there are a bunch of Kurds in Turkey who'd like nothing better than to carve off a piece of Turkey and form their own nation with Kurds in Syria and northern Iraq ... and they can be a little insurgenty / terroristy in the way they argue the point with the Turkish government.

One of the things that usually gets lost in WMD-fixated discussions about our invasion of Iraq was how Saddam Hussein was waging ethnic cleansing campaigns against portions of his own population (and incidentally, spreading propaganda blaming the USA for sanctions harming those same people). Sure, Saddam wasn't behind 9/11. He didn't have vast caches of WMD. But I remember arguing with a Jewish friend at the time, who adamantly opposed invading Iraq. I asked him if that whole "Never Again" thing only applied to small-mustache dictators killing Jews, but not big-mustache dictators killing Muslims. He was offended by the comparison. One of the reasons I supported forcibly removing Saddam Hussein from power was because I couldn't reconcile that "Never Again" pledge with a refusal to intervene in a nation that was sandwiched between two allies (Turkey and Saudi Arabia) with permanent US military bases. I argued that if we couldn't stop ethnic cleansing in a place that was surrounded by our troops, where could we?

Plenty of things went wrong in Iraq, obviously, and we made many errors and missteps. But the fundamental problem in 2018 Iraq isn't really any different than it was in 1990 Iraq: it's still a bunch of Iraqis torturing and murdering other Iraqis.

Some of the people in the "Crisis In The Congo" video you linked also made the "Never Again" argument. And they're right. Absolutely right. But today ... my enthusiasm for saving people from themselves is thinner than it was. Maybe that makes me weak, or a hypocrite. Then again, at least I'm not murdering or torturing anyone, even if you choose to blame me for it.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

But ultimately, these are Africans murdering and torturing other Africans, and there's a limit to how much guilt I'm going to accept, and how much support I would lend to intervention there.

I would put that limit at somewhere between 0 and negative infinity. Ironically, if the United States did not allow random Africans to study at West Point the OP would almost certainly cry racism and xenophobia. There is no winning with these people.

 

[dannyboy1]

I watched this a couple days ago when you first posted it. Wasn't really sure how I wanted to respond, but thought it deserved a response.

It certainly is tragic. Maybe the rest of the world, including the United States, shares some responsibility for the state of affairs in Congo. But ultimately, these are Africans murdering and torturing other Africans, and there's a limit to how much guilt I'm going to accept, and how much support I would lend to intervention there.


We're 16 years into Afghanistan. It began (appropriately and justly) as a military response to a nation led by a regime that gave aid and shelter to an organization that attacked us. We could have killed every male who stood taller than a wagon wheel, salted the earth, and left. We didn't. We have worked extraordinarily hard, we have spent vast sums of money, and we have suffered many deaths and many more wounded, in what has absolutely been a good-faith effort to help the Afghanis establish their own democracy, rebuild their economy, expand rights for women and ethnic/religious minorities, and train and equip their own police and military forces so they could take care of themselves. It's not entirely altruism of course; we desire stability in Afghanistan and the surrounding nations in order to reduce the risk of future attacks on our own nation, our allies, and our interests abroad.

And yet, just today, a bunch of Afghanis attacked the Save The Children NGO in Jalalabad and killed a bunch aid workers.

Last weekend, a bunch of Afghanis laid siege to the International Hotel in Kabul and killed 22 people, including 4 Americans.

Now there's another scandal concerning widespread sexual abuse of Afghani boys by the Afghani security forces. Of course, it's being reported as our failure and our fault: How The U.S. Military Ignored Child Sexual Abuse In Afghanistan For Years. Our military trainers continue to attempt to give the Afghan security forces the skills, tools, discipline, order, sense of purpose, pride of self-reliance, to serve their country and to protect their people and yet it's somehow our fault that they haven't excised the rotting tumor of their culture that permits the systematic rape of prepubescent boys (their own children!).

I've spent more than a year of my life in Afghanistan, including several months in Jalalabad, that place where a bunch of Afghanis murdered a bunch of Save The Children aid workers today. I confess a little fatigue when it comes to listening to the world heap blame upon the United States.

I'm all out of guilt or concern or regret for what we woulda coulda shoulda done in Afghanistan. They've had 16 years of our blood and treasure and they haven't been able to get it together. It's still Afghans murdering and torturing other Afghans. Baby boys who were being born the first time I set foot in that country are presently becoming military-age "men" and I have little faith that they won't murder or torture other Afghans, or be murdered or tortured by other Afghans.


Is there any reason to believe that intervention in Congo would turn out any better?


Today one of our allies in the middle east (Turkey) was attacked by some Kurds from Syria. Some rockets hit a mosque and a house, killing some people. The Kurds, of course, are a group we've supported for a few decades now, ever since Saddam gassed a bunch of them. Had we not intervened to protect them with no-fly zones and other aid between 1991 and 2003, Saddam surely would've scoured them from the face of the earth. The Turks hate the Kurds, and oppress them, because there are a bunch of Kurds in Turkey who'd like nothing better than to carve off a piece of Turkey and form their own nation with Kurds in Syria and northern Iraq ... and they can be a little insurgenty / terroristy in the way they argue the point with the Turkish government.

One of the things that usually gets lost in WMD-fixated discussions about our invasion of Iraq was how Saddam Hussein was waging ethnic cleansing campaigns against portions of his own population (and incidentally, spreading propaganda blaming the USA for sanctions harming those same people). Sure, Saddam wasn't behind 9/11. He didn't have vast caches of WMD. But I remember arguing with a Jewish friend at the time, who adamantly opposed invading Iraq. I asked him if that whole "Never Again" thing only applied to small-mustache dictators killing Jews, but not big-mustache dictators killing Muslims. He was offended by the comparison. One of the reasons I supported forcibly removing Saddam Hussein from power was because I couldn't reconcile that "Never Again" pledge with a refusal to intervene in a nation that was sandwiched between two allies (Turkey and Saudi Arabia) with permanent US military bases. I argued that if we couldn't stop ethnic cleansing in a place that was surrounded by our troops, where could we?

Plenty of things went wrong in Iraq, obviously, and we made many errors and missteps. But the fundamental problem in 2018 Iraq isn't really any different than it was in 1990 Iraq: it's still a bunch of Iraqis torturing and murdering other Iraqis.

Some of the people in the "Crisis In The Congo" video you linked also made the "Never Again" argument. And they're right. Absolutely right. But today ... my enthusiasm for saving people from themselves is thinner than it was. Maybe that makes me weak, or a hypocrite. Then again, at least I'm not murdering or torturing anyone, even if you choose to blame me for it.

Afghanistan would be a perfect place to send a nuke on 9/12/01. Never should have had any boots on the ground then, and certainly not now. It’s been 17 years. WTF are we still doing there!!!!

 

[mostwanted]

I watched this a couple days ago when you first posted it. Wasn't really sure how I wanted to respond, but thought it deserved a response.

It certainly is tragic. Maybe the rest of the world, including the United States, shares some responsibility for the state of affairs in Congo. But ultimately, these are Africans murdering and torturing other Africans, and there's a limit to how much guilt I'm going to accept, and how much support I would lend to intervention there.


We're 16 years into Afghanistan. It began (appropriately and justly) as a military response to a nation led by a regime that gave aid and shelter to an organization that attacked us. We could have killed every male who stood taller than a wagon wheel, salted the earth, and left. We didn't. We have worked extraordinarily hard, we have spent vast sums of money, and we have suffered many deaths and many more wounded, in what has absolutely been a good-faith effort to help the Afghanis establish their own democracy, rebuild their economy, expand rights for women and ethnic/religious minorities, and train and equip their own police and military forces so they could take care of themselves. It's not entirely altruism of course; we desire stability in Afghanistan and the surrounding nations in order to reduce the risk of future attacks on our own nation, our allies, and our interests abroad.

And yet, just today, a bunch of Afghanis attacked the Save The Children NGO in Jalalabad and killed a bunch aid workers.

Last weekend, a bunch of Afghanis laid siege to the International Hotel in Kabul and killed 22 people, including 4 Americans.

Now there's another scandal concerning widespread sexual abuse of Afghani boys by the Afghani security forces. Of course, it's being reported as our failure and our fault: How The U.S. Military Ignored Child Sexual Abuse In Afghanistan For Years. Our military trainers continue to attempt to give the Afghan security forces the skills, tools, discipline, order, sense of purpose, pride of self-reliance, to serve their country and to protect their people and yet it's somehow our fault that they haven't excised the rotting tumor of their culture that permits the systematic rape of prepubescent boys (their own children!).

I've spent more than a year of my life in Afghanistan, including several months in Jalalabad, that place where a bunch of Afghanis murdered a bunch of Save The Children aid workers today. I confess a little fatigue when it comes to listening to the world heap blame upon the United States.

I'm all out of guilt or concern or regret for what we woulda coulda shoulda done in Afghanistan. They've had 16 years of our blood and treasure and they haven't been able to get it together. It's still Afghans murdering and torturing other Afghans. Baby boys who were being born the first time I set foot in that country are presently becoming military-age "men" and I have little faith that they won't murder or torture other Afghans, or be murdered or tortured by other Afghans.


Is there any reason to believe that intervention in Congo would turn out any better?


Today one of our allies in the middle east (Turkey) was attacked by some Kurds from Syria. Some rockets hit a mosque and a house, killing some people. The Kurds, of course, are a group we've supported for a few decades now, ever since Saddam gassed a bunch of them. Had we not intervened to protect them with no-fly zones and other aid between 1991 and 2003, Saddam surely would've scoured them from the face of the earth. The Turks hate the Kurds, and oppress them, because there are a bunch of Kurds in Turkey who'd like nothing better than to carve off a piece of Turkey and form their own nation with Kurds in Syria and northern Iraq ... and they can be a little insurgenty / terroristy in the way they argue the point with the Turkish government.

One of the things that usually gets lost in WMD-fixated discussions about our invasion of Iraq was how Saddam Hussein was waging ethnic cleansing campaigns against portions of his own population (and incidentally, spreading propaganda blaming the USA for sanctions harming those same people). Sure, Saddam wasn't behind 9/11. He didn't have vast caches of WMD. But I remember arguing with a Jewish friend at the time, who adamantly opposed invading Iraq. I asked him if that whole "Never Again" thing only applied to small-mustache dictators killing Jews, but not big-mustache dictators killing Muslims. He was offended by the comparison. One of the reasons I supported forcibly removing Saddam Hussein from power was because I couldn't reconcile that "Never Again" pledge with a refusal to intervene in a nation that was sandwiched between two allies (Turkey and Saudi Arabia) with permanent US military bases. I argued that if we couldn't stop ethnic cleansing in a place that was surrounded by our troops, where could we?

Plenty of things went wrong in Iraq, obviously, and we made many errors and missteps. But the fundamental problem in 2018 Iraq isn't really any different than it was in 1990 Iraq: it's still a bunch of Iraqis torturing and murdering other Iraqis.

Some of the people in the "Crisis In The Congo" video you linked also made the "Never Again" argument. And they're right. Absolutely right. But today ... my enthusiasm for saving people from themselves is thinner than it was. Maybe that makes me weak, or a hypocrite. Then again, at least I'm not murdering or torturing anyone, even if you choose to blame me for it.

I think US is responsible for killing more Iraqis than Saddam could have ever dreamed off. Going to Iraq had nothing to do with WMD, 9/11 or any humanitarian reasons, it was mainly for money/control. I will not delve deeply into 9/11 truth movement, but it is absolutely stunning that so many well educated people refuse to objectively look at what happened on 9/11 and continue to believe the bs version fed to them by the government. It is like saying a high school drop out, performed a perfect Cardiac anesthetic on an impossible case, and some how managed to do it better than pathophysiologically possible. Objective/physical evidence is overwhelmingly against the official narrative and countless American, Iraqi, Afghanstani, Pakistani lives lost are a direct result of that.

 

[Gastrapathy]

@pgg summed up my war weary ambivalence perfectly. We go there we'll just get blamed for their **** too. I spent too much time packaging our heroes for transport home to a ****ty new life because we tried to do it right.

 

[skypilot]

@pgg summed up my war weary ambivalence perfectly. We go there we'll just get blamed for their **** too. I spent too much time packaging our heroes for transport home to a ****ty new life because we tried to do it right.

Civil wars, where it is brother against brother are the worst place to intervene. We end up using these as proxy wars by arming one side. Our enemies (examples in the past include China, Russia, Iran) arm the other side. Instead of burning out on its own, the killing continues into infinity.

 

[Lecithin5]

Afghanistan would be a perfect place to send a nuke on 9/12/01. Never should have had any boots on the ground then, and certainly not now. It’s been 17 years. WTF are we still doing there!!!!

Because innocent afghani lives are less valuable than innocent american lives, right?

 

[pgg]

Afghanistan would be a perfect place to send a nuke on 9/12/01.

As I said ...

We could have killed every male who stood taller than a wagon wheel, salted the earth, and left. We didn't.

We're better than that. If you genuinely think indiscriminately killing untold numbers of people would have been a better idea - with nuclear weapons no less - you're not someone I want on my side.

I think US is responsible for killing more Iraqis than Saddam could have ever dreamed off. Going to Iraq had nothing to do with WMD, 9/11 or any humanitarian reasons, it was mainly for money/control.

The United States didn't create the civil war in Iraq. The Shiite-Sunni hatred and violence was always there, under the surface, just suppressed by the brutality of Saddam's regime (superficially Sunni but really secular). When he was gone, we maybe had a brief window when we could've averted the civil war and insurgency that followed. We didn't, and there's plenty of blame to lay on mistakes we made - everything from disbanding the Iraqi Army to Abu Ghraib ... a hundred choices we made ... a hundred choices the Iraqis made.

But as for motives, it wasn't about money. Halliburton and oil conspiracy theories are stupid, and so are the people who believe them.

As weary as we all are of the middle east today, it's easy to forget we were already weary in 2000. The entirety of the middle east has been a festering violent pit for most of recorded history, and there's a laundry list of reasons why it got worse post WWII. Moreover, in the 1970s it really picked up steam and started bleeding out into the rest of the world. In the aftermath of 9/11, it was easy to see that the middle east was not only failing to sort itself out, but that the spillage to the civilized world was getting worse and worse. GWB et al thought it might be possible to do better. The neocon dream in Iraq was that we could change the whole of the middle east for the better in one fell swoop. Destroy a hostile oppressive totalitarian regime, help a pro-west democracy take root, and let Iraq be an example to surrounding nations of how things could be. A successful Arab Spring, in other words, before anyone coined the Arab Spring phrase.

Exaggerating the threat Saddam posed was just part of the politics to get support for this attempt. And you've got to remember, Saddam wasn't exactly cooperating to avert war. I don't buy any of the moral, ethical, or legal arguments opposing our war in Iraq. By 2003, Iraq had spent more than a decade violating the terms that ended the 1991 Gulf War. UN inspectors expelled, shots fired at our aircraft enforcing UN no-fly zones, posturing toward Iran, sanctions violated, human rights abuses from a simmering civil war, ongoing attempts to wipe out the Kurds, on and on.

The neocon dream was naive and poorly executed. But pretending it was about money is just as wrong as pretending that the vast majority of dead Iraqis weren't killed by other Iraqis.

 

[pgg]

I think I'm going to bow out of a discussion that delves into Israel conspiracies and thanks the Russians for saving the Assad regime.

 

[dhb]

Wow pgg, apples and oranges, you are drawing parallels between 2 vastly different situations.
I don't know where you got the idea of a US intervention in Congo (at no point is this talked about in the documentary), but then that's the only thing the US know how to do.
How 'bout not financing a genocide to steal a country's natural resources?

 

[dhb]

But as for motives, it wasn't about money. Halliburton and oil conspiracy theories are stupid, and so are the people who believe them.

WHAT??? Not about money? So where did it all go? All the billions of dollars? Charity? Give me a break.

 

[GA8314]

I agree the Neocon dream wasn't about money, or oil. It was about destabilizing Arab secular regimes which posed a threat to "our greatest ally in the middle east." Read about the greater Israel project, project for the new American century etc. Most of this was planned in the 1980's by the same fifth columnists who later infested GWB's administration.

Israel perceives stable, secular neighbors as a grave threat to its security and also an impediment to expansionism into the Golan heights, illegal settlement building.

Syria was supposed to have been Iraq 2.0 but thankfully the Russians and the Iranians intervened in time to save the Assad regime. Also, Trump pulling the plug on CIA weapons and money to ISIS- via "moderate" rebels- was crucial but is not widely appreciated.

- ex 61N

I agree 100%

 

[mostwanted]

@pgg So it was a gesture of necon goodwill to kill hundreds and thousands of Iraqis?

I think I'm going to bow out of a discussion that delves into Israel conspiracies and thanks the Russians for saving the Assad regime.

That is a cop out answer, any stance that is against the official story must be a conspiracy? Whether it be Gulf of Tonkin incident, USS liberty, 9/11 etc. Israel without a doubt is central to almost every issue that exists in Middle East. If you are pro-military why don't you take a stand for soldiers lives to not be slaughtered in these bogus wars? We need to GTFO.

Israel has done little to benefit US in anyway except leech off billions of dollars annually, while committing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

 

[Planktonmd]

I agree with pgg that these internal conflicts can not be resolved by U.S. military interventions as history has consistently demonstrated.
But since we are talking about history we also have to remember that European colonialism and exploitation of resources in the past 2 centuries has played a direct role in keeping them behind the rest of the world.
The European colonial policy was to actually strengthen and nurture tribal, religious and ethnic differences in these doomed areas of the world to keep them busy fighting each other rather than fighting their real oppressors.
Then the Europeans left when direct occupation was no longer a lucrative business and they left behind corrupt governments and dictators to protect their interests.
That was when the U.S. entered the game and U.S. companies quickly learned that if we want these resources for cheap then these guys should keep on killing each other.
So, to claim that no one is guilty but the third world populations and that they brought it on themselves is unfair and inaccurate.

 

[GA8314]

Actually it was about establishing a beacon of democracy, tolerance, capitalism in the most intolerant, poorest, and most brutal area in the world. Also an area that is young and angry and getting younger and angrier. The thought was that to know our values was to love them: Freedom, Education, Tolerance, Disneyland, The Dallas Cowboys and their cheerleaders, etc.

Well stated. Israel is an ethnostate, an apartheid state that built a huge wall along its border and is aggressively deporting African migrants. They are in fact paying civilian mercenaries- vigilantes- to help round up migrants to be forcibly deported.

The biggest destabilizing influence in the middle east is the presence of US troops and CIA proxies. Democracy absolutely does not work in tribal societies that mutilate women and throw gays off buildings. Democracy barely works in the US anymore. We are 19 trillion dollars in debt. We need to leave immediately. We have no business being there, and Israel needs to learn how to play well with others.

The conflict in the middle east is Shia vs. Sunni. Always has been and always will be. Leave them alone and they will happily slaughter each other in perpetuity. But no more American kids from the wrong side of the tracks deserve to come home to Dover.

- ex 61N

Didn't you know? If you are pro-White, you are called by many Jews to be "White Supremacist".

Many Jews are extremely active in pro-Jewish causes (Zionism for example). Perhaps they should be labeled as they do others. Jewish Supremacist??

Notice how Jews in Israel and Jewish diaspora are pro-Immigration for all except for Israel? How many immigrants (forget Arabs, but simply Africans fleeing war) has Israel taken in lately or EVER?

You think they don't fully understand the divide and conquer concept others have mentioned relative to European colonialism? Could this be why many are pro-immigration to all nations except their little ethno state in the Middle East?

See a bit of hypocrisy or at least a huge contradiction here?

That would be a conspiracy though......

Edit, before "some people" complain to the mods, this of course does not apply to ALL Jews.

 

[GA8314]

Well stated. Israel is an ethnostate, an apartheid state that built a huge wall along its border and is aggressively deporting African migrants. They are in fact paying civilian mercenaries- vigilantes- to help round up migrants to be forcibly deported.

The biggest destabilizing influence in the middle east is the presence of US troops and CIA proxies. Democracy absolutely does not work in tribal societies that mutilate women and throw gays off buildings. Democracy barely works in the US anymore. We are 19 trillion dollars in debt. We need to leave immediately. We have no business being there, and Israel needs to learn how to play well with others.

The conflict in the middle east is Shia vs. Sunni. Always has been and always will be. Leave them alone and they will happily slaughter each other in perpetuity. But no more American kids from the wrong side of the tracks deserve to come home to Dover.

- ex 61N

Golly Gee Wilikers, I never seen that in the CNNs. I wonder why.... Must be a conspiracy.