Bilateral DVT

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GeneralVeers

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I've had a number of these cases this month and wondered what you guys do

Typically it's an obese female with bilateral lower leg edema of uncertain cause sent by her physician to "rule out DVT".

Bilateral, simultaneous DVT in someone without Lupus or cancer would be incredibly rare. Does the primary doctor's concern necessitate bilateral duplex ultrasound for something that's extremely unlikely?
 
Well's criteria for DVT, D-dimer, and dispo. (this in a low-probability patient)

At least that's how I've done it the last two months.
 
Well's criteria for DVT, D-dimer, and dispo. (this in a low-probability patient)

At least that's how I've done it the last two months.


I don't think I explained the question well. What about the bilateral-ness?

Generally I try to get a D-dimer, and if it's negative discharge without the study.
 
I don't think I explained the question well. What about the bilateral-ness?

Generally I try to get a D-dimer, and if it's negative discharge without the study.
I hear you. For those of you who don't know (or can't read the side bar) Veers and I both practice in Vegas. In Vegas it's sadly very common for PMDs to ship their patients to the ED to avoid having to get a study approved such as an LE US. This has chafed me ever since I got here.

Nevertheless, from a practical standpoint, I do the US and I generally do them bilaterally unless the symptoms are clearly unilateral. Perversely I'm actually more concerned about the unilateral ones but oh well. The reason is that the patient came to the ED expecting the US. It is usually very difficult to get them to accept that I'm not going to do one. I have had PMDs just send the patients right back to the ED on their next visit if whatever idiotic test they wanted wasn't done the first time, MRI for chronic back pain, LP for chronic head aches and so on. The PMDs will also call your director and complain. Trust me. I've been the doc being complained about and the administrator being complained to (in one really weird case I was both at once).

The sad fact of why they really transfer these people though is that they don't want to be the ones to tell them that they've got peripheral edema and they need to lose weight and be more active. It's a lot easier to say that there's a test to diagnose the problem and a pill to fix it (they leave out a lot of the details, just like when they send the folks for LPs) and both are at the ED. When you bug these guys about why they do this they all say "What if the patient has a PE?" I still don't think that indicates a stat BL LE US fishing expedition but whatever. I just do primary care while I'm waiting for the actual emergencies to roll in.
 
I hear you. For those of you who don't know (or can't read the side bar) Veers and I both practice in Vegas. In Vegas it's sadly very common for PMDs to ship their patients to the ED to avoid having to get a study approved such as an LE US. This has chafed me ever since I got here.

It's a very different world from Texas. Between the PMDs shipping their patients to us, and all of the New Yorkers here, I've had to "adjust" my practice style.
 
I hear you. For those of you who don't know (or can't read the side bar) Veers and I both practice in Vegas. In Vegas it's sadly very common for PMDs to ship their patients to the ED to avoid having to get a study approved such as an LE US. This has chafed me ever since I got here.

Nevertheless, from a practical standpoint, I do the US and I generally do them bilaterally unless the symptoms are clearly unilateral. Perversely I'm actually more concerned about the unilateral ones but oh well. The reason is that the patient came to the ED expecting the US. It is usually very difficult to get them to accept that I'm not going to do one. I have had PMDs just send the patients right back to the ED on their next visit if whatever idiotic test they wanted wasn't done the first time, MRI for chronic back pain, LP for chronic head aches and so on. The PMDs will also call your director and complain. Trust me. I've been the doc being complained about and the administrator being complained to (in one really weird case I was both at once).

The sad fact of why they really transfer these people though is that they don't want to be the ones to tell them that they've got peripheral edema and they need to lose weight and be more active. It's a lot easier to say that there's a test to diagnose the problem and a pill to fix it (they leave out a lot of the details, just like when they send the folks for LPs) and both are at the ED. When you bug these guys about why they do this they all say "What if the patient has a PE?" I still don't think that indicates a stat BL LE US fishing expedition but whatever. I just do primary care while I'm waiting for the actual emergencies to roll in.

answer the pmd, "if they have a pe, they can still be treated as an outpatient. lovenox (enoxaparin) is fda approved for pe with or without pe."

my group's working on a dvt/pe treatment as an outpatient, but we've got to get it past our urgent care first. then at least if you call me for an admit, i can just send that patient for outpatient teaching and treatment!


It's a very different world from Texas. Between the PMDs shipping their patients to us, and all of the New Yorkers here, I've had to "adjust" my practice style.

hopefully we can get some pmd's to change their style too. enough of the lazy/half-assed medicine.

unless the patient's bilateral edema is compromising their life (extreme pain, inablitity to ambulate, associated with shortness of breath, etc.), i don't see the point of sending them to the ed in the 1st place. but then again, i'm not a pmd... though our paths may cross in the near future.
 
hopefully we can get some pmd's to change their style too. enough of the lazy/half-assed medicine.

unless the patient's bilateral edema is compromising their life (extreme pain, inablitity to ambulate, associated with shortness of breath, etc.), i don't see the point of sending them to the ed in the 1st place. but then again, i'm not a pmd... though our paths may cross in the near future.

Another thing not considered by the PMD is the massive bill that many patients will receive. Sure most of these patients will be insured, but they may have large co-pays or deductibles that they will have to pay out of pocket. If the PMDs would just order the appropriate outpatient tests, it would cost a lot less for the patients, and for the system.
 
Once the patient registers in the ED, he or she will usually be charged a facility fee. I go ahead and order the ultrasound if they've already registered (99% of the time when I see them) because even if I don't order the study, they'll still get a huge bill.

Bilateral DVT's do occur, although not that frequently. Usually they're secondary to an IVC clot or some sort of anatomical defect.

I never rule out DVT's with a d-dimer because ultrasound is available in my institution 24/7 -- the tech is always in house. It's quicker for me to get an ultrasound arranged than to wait for the d-dimer to be done by the lab.

Finally, outpatient management of PE is extremely risky and hasn't gained a lot of acceptance. One study involved only 100 patients, and the second study involving more patients (500) was not without its problems. I am aware of one pending lawsuit against an emergency physician and pulmonologist who discharged a PE patient on low-molecular weight heparin and warfarin. The patient subsequently developed a saddle embolus and died. It is going to be hard to defend this case considering outpatient management of PE is not considered the standard of care nationwide. I mention this to caution anyone who is considering this strategy. We admit patients for far less problems.
 
I don't think I explained the question well. What about the bilateral-ness?

Generally I try to get a D-dimer, and if it's negative discharge without the study.

Sorry, I did see the b/l thing - just didn't respond directly. I (erm, my attendings) worry a lot more about unilateral leg swelling. Bilateral swelling in a low risk patients gets a d-dimer which is hopefully normal. I did have a bilateral leg swelling patient who had just finished chemo and flown cross-country. She got an U/S the next AM.

U/S is not available in-house 24/7 for something like this in any of the hospitals I've worked at (none of which are particularly resource-poor). Even if this patient comes at 9 AM, she may wait 7 or 8 hours to have the study done and read. Thus, I reserve u/s for those who absolutely need them.

It seems like we get a lot of CRAP pmd referrals - pts whose chief complaint triggered a "go to the emergency department" sometimes inappropriately. Once the patient is in the ED, the workup is in our hands and I've sensed a lot of resistance amongst my attendings to following the requests of PMDs in these cases. It sounds like the PMDs in Vegas are abusing the ED - by bouncing back their patients for expensive outpatient tests that are not appropriate in the ED.
 
Finally, outpatient management of PE is extremely risky and hasn't gained a lot of acceptance. One study involved only 100 patients, and the second study involving more patients (500) was not without its problems. I am aware of one pending lawsuit against an emergency physician and pulmonologist who discharged a PE patient on low-molecular weight heparin and warfarin. The patient subsequently developed a saddle embolus and died. It is going to be hard to defend this case considering outpatient management of PE is not considered the standard of care nationwide. I mention this to caution anyone who is considering this strategy. We admit patients for far less problems.

the crux of that case may come down to the use of low molecular weight heparin. it's fda approved for dvt with or without pe... but its not fda approved for pe without dvt!

do we use lmwh as an inpatient for pe? sure we do. but its not fda approved.

then you get into when the warfarin was started... which you may not actually have to do, if it can be proven that lmwh was given in a setting without dvt.

with that said, what truthfully happens as an inpatient after a pe has been diagnosed? does it make a difference if the patient is on a heparin drip, versus scheduled injections of unfractionated heparin, versus sheduled injections of lmwh? is there something magical about being on a monitor in that situation? is there any reason that it can't be done with home health?

of course it gets into the resources/access available to the patient... provided the patient is stable (there are, after all, patients with pe who aren't significantly hypoxic, without tachycardia, and with no to minimal chest pain). i can get my patient out of the ed here and seen within 4 hours, and run a heparin drip in the comfort of the patients home, and just have the nurse draw labs as though the patient was in the hospital... or just send them over to a sub acute facility out of the ed. but unfortunatley that's not available to everyone. i suppose i should have prefaced my earlier comments with that to give it some context.

so no, every patient with a pe is not appropriate for home treatment. but there are some. the key, to me at least, is identifying which patients are acceptable, and of those, which have the access/resource for it.

if somone dies after a pe has been diagnosed, as long as the treatment itself has been appropriate, it doesn't matter whether the patient is in the hospital or at home. and yes, i've had a patient with a known pe on a heparin drip in the hospital on the step-down unit/dou succumb to their pe.

sometimes patients live because of what we do
sometimes patients die because of what we do
sometimes patients live in spite/despite what we do
sometimes patients die in spite/despite what we do

btw, i'd love to see either of those 2 studies that you were referring to.
 
new onset b/l LE edema generally would get a CHF/renal failure w/u from me (CXR, EKG, BNP, chem10, UA, and maybe even echo/enzymes), but not even a D-Dimer without a very good story (known coagulable state, SOB, etc). Many of these referrals really just want "expedited workup" in my humble experience). If at the end of my initial w/u I was left with lame venous stasis, would consider just slapping the ultrasound hanging around the ED on the patient. That way everyone's happy, no? (assuming you have a machine). I hate D-Dimer for all but the healthy 20 somethings because they always seem to lead somehow to PE protocol chest CTs, at least by the time they escape the hospital. 🙄
 
If at the end of my initial w/u I was left with lame venous stasis, would consider just slapping the ultrasound hanging around the ED on the patient. That way everyone's happy, no? (assuming you have a machine). I hate D-Dimer for all but the healthy 20 somethings because they always seem to lead somehow to PE protocol chest CTs, at least by the time they escape the hospital. 🙄

The problem with using the ultrasound in the ED is that you have to willing to risk your license on making a diagnosis. I generally only use the ultrasound for FAST exams, Aortic screenings, and gallstones (with no evidence of cholecystitis). If it's something potentially life-threatening, like DVT or ectopic that will get sent home, you'd better believe I'm going to have a formal study done, and read by radiology to protect me.
 
The problem with using the ultrasound in the ED is that you have to willing to risk your license on making a diagnosis. I generally only use the ultrasound for FAST exams, Aortic screenings, and gallstones (with no evidence of cholecystitis). If it's something potentially life-threatening, like DVT or ectopic that will get sent home, you'd better believe I'm going to have a formal study done, and read by radiology to protect me.

interesting.. you are sure enough that they don't have DVT that you don't want to do the study, but you are not willing to bet your license on it. Totally understandable, but interesting nonetheless...
 
I just scan the patient myself, rule out the DVT and discharge. Though the majority of even academic ED's do not scan below the popliteal trifurcation, I teach my fellows and some high functioning attendings and residents to do just that. That said if the patient is lower prob, not complaining of focused descrete pain below the popliteal, I do a limited LE scan Fem through pop.

Paul
 
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