bio degree or other degree+postbac?

[thirdunity]

Hey folks.

Here's a question I have.

What would look better to med schools?

I am a biology major. It will take me a long time to finish my degree, because through my 20s I *wasn't* a science major so I am having to take the math and science prerequisites from scratch. I also was a righteous f---up during my 20s, so my GPA will never be very high (I think I can hope for about a 3.4).

I am considering that because I'll probably never be able to get my GPA into "competitive med school range", one option would be to transfer to the UC under another major - say, anthropology - then do postbac after I graduate.

What would be better, getting my bio degree or getting a degree in something else + doing postbac?

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[Law2Doc]

Hey folks.

Here's a question I have.

What would look better to med schools?

I am a biology major. It will take me a long time to finish my degree, because through my 20s I *wasn't* a science major so I am having to take the math and science prerequisites from scratch. I also was a righteous f---up during my 20s, so my GPA will never be very high (I think I can hope for about a 3.4).

I am considering that because I'll probably never be able to get my GPA into "competitive med school range", one option would be to transfer to the UC under another major - say, anthropology - then do postbac after I graduate.

What would be better, getting my bio degree or getting a degree in something else + doing postbac?

Apples and oranges. You need to do well in a bunch of sciences at some point to prove that you can handle them. But there is no advantage to being a bio major in terms of admissions, (as opposed to a non-sci major) that I have seen. Non-science postbacs with decent undergrad GPAs and good success in their postbac seem to do quite well in the process.

 

[thirdunity]

Apples and oranges. You need to do well in a bunch of sciences at some point to prove that you can handle them. But there is no advantage to being a bio major in terms of admissions, (as opposed to a non-sci major) that I have seen. Non-science postbacs with decent undergrad GPAs and good success in their postbac seem to do quite well in the process.

Actually, I'm a bio major because I love bio. I was a bio major before deciding to be pre-med, and two of the careers (though admittedly at the bottom; nurse practicioner is my main fall-back) on my "fall-back career" list is medical/science journalist and then science teacher.

What I'm wondering though, is what looks better in terms of someone with a noncompetitive GPA:

Graduating with the noncompetitive GPA, not doing all of the premed prerequisite courses, and then doing Postbac?

Or:

Graduating with noncompetitive GPA but high BCPM, and applying to med school right out of undergrad?

 

[relentless11]

Noncompetative GPA kills you every time regardless of where the GPA is or what it is in.

Although GPA doesn't play a big role in the BIG picture, schools that screen can knock you out of the game pretty fast.

Now if you had a low GPA because you supported your family or something like that, then that might be able to give you some slack, to get you to a secondary. But even though it'll be a uphill battle...there must be some proof that you can significantly do better. Thats where post-bacc comes into play. 1+ years of 4.0's in upper div science classes, and a strong MCAT can save your behind.

In regards to majors, as stated a non-competative GPA will hurt you greatly in any major.

As a bio major you are expected to do EVEN better in terms of GPA/MCAT because you have a lot of background due to your curriculum. But alas...

as a non-science major, you will more well rounded. However there's the catch 22, you won't have the background that may prepare you for the MCAT, or have the time to take additional science classes due to your non-science curriculum.

Using an example, science majors need say on average a 3.7 GPA, 33 MCAT to get into a UC. Non-science majors can probably get by with a 3.5-3.7, and say a 28 on the MCAT. Non-science majors prolly will get higher VR sections too, and thats something that stands out in a good way. BUT the non-science major better get a lot of A's in their science classes too.

So ultimately your major doesn't really matter. It might give you a bit of leeway +/- 0.1 grade point but if your GPA is noncompetative, being noncompetative pretty much rules you out of the game given that no sufficient reason is provided to have caused you to get a low GPA, and no proof of your true capabilities.

 

[thirdunity]

Well, I've had a fantastic trend toward improvement.
I'm 32, and have maintained pretty consistent As and the occasional B, in all of my classes in recent years. And I actually do better in science/math than in liberal arts classes. The thing is, though, I screwed up - mostly in my early 20s. Even though I've mostly gotten As, and only have *ever* gotten one C, I have a total of five fails and one D out of about 100 or so units. I repeated one of the fails, and am repeating another (because it's a class I need anyway), but I have been advised by my counselors not to bother repeating the rest because it won't affect my GPA significantly enough to do so.
Many of these units are toward a vocational AA I never finished, and I still have a lot of units to go before I can even transfer to UC Davis.

But no, I don't have anything to say for myself in my 20s, other than "I was an unmotivated slacker". I wasn't raising kids. I had to hold down a job even while living with my parents. But I don't want to fluff this up beyond its actual significance.

I'm now the total opposite - totally type A - but I know that my past will bite me in the butt. I just wish I'd been motivated from day 1.

 

[relentless11]

Well, I've had a fantastic trend toward improvement.
I'm 32, and have maintained pretty consistent As and the occasional B, in all of my classes in recent years. And I actually do better in science/math than in liberal arts classes. The thing is, though, I screwed up - mostly in my early 20s. Even though I've mostly gotten As, and only have *ever* gotten one C, I have a total of five fails and one D out of about 100 or so units. I repeated one of the fails, and am repeating another (because it's a class I need anyway), but I have been advised by my counselors not to bother repeating the rest because it won't affect my GPA significantly enough to do so.
Many of these units are toward a vocational AA I never finished, and I still have a lot of units to go before I can even transfer to UC Davis.

But no, I don't have anything to say for myself in my 20s, other than "I was an unmotivated slacker". I wasn't raising kids. I had to hold down a job even while living with my parents. But I don't want to fluff this up beyond its actual significance.

I'm now the total opposite - totally type A - but I know that my past will bite me in the butt. I just wish I'd been motivated from day 1.

In the end, this will require a lot of upper division science (and even non-science if you choose) courses to prove to the adcoms that you can handle it. At some point.......like say 1-2 years or more of fulltime post-bacc work, your previous grades may have less of an importance, but that depends on what classes you take, how well you did, and how many classes you took per quarter as a post-bacc. Hard to question a person's academic abilities if they got 4.0's during 2 years of post-bacc and a 35+ on their MCAT. Of course you don't HAVE to get 4.0's its just better that you do

 

[thirdunity]

In the end, this will require a lot of upper division science (and even non-science if you choose) courses to prove to the adcoms that you can handle it. At some point.......like say 1-2 years or more of fulltime post-bacc work, your previous grades may have less of an importance, but that depends on what classes you take, how well you did, and how many classes you took per quarter as a post-bacc. Hard to question a person's academic abilities if they got 4.0's during 2 years of post-bacc and a 35+ on their MCAT. Of course you don't HAVE to get 4.0's its just better that you do

So you think Bachelors Degree + Postbac would look better than simply fulfilling the prereqs while undergrad?

The thing is, in my current major, I'll be meeting most of my premed requirements as a prerequisite to my major. Even if I got 4.0s in my science classes, I don't know that this will boost my GPA. I don't know. Let's see. The failed courses and the D amount to about 10-12 units, I have a huge number of units already (somewhere between 80-100) and I need to complete coursework totalling about 35+ more units (15 units just of science prerequisites; then about 20 of math and science prereqs to my major)
before I can transfer to Davis. From there, I am imagining it will be about 60 more units before I graduate.

Do you think I should take some GPA-booster courses, things that don't apply to my Bachelor's (I can only transfer a certain number of units) but which will buff up my cumulative GPA somewhat? I have been told that repeating my courses that I failed, won't help me much, since the A and the F average together as a C. One was failed due to what seems to be clerical error (I thought I dropped the course; this was when I was about 18!) and I don't know if I can get the school to remove the fail from my transcript, or if this would make a difference as far as the adcoms are concerned. I have already repeated another fail, and I understand that this does not make a difference as far as the adcoms are concerned.

And I'm a bio major *because I love bio*, not just because I think it's what I need to do to go premed. My "just in case" fallbacks are all bioscience or medicine related disciplines.

Would it help to take additional coursework in upper division sciences over and above the Bachelors' Degree if one has already met the prerequisites? Can one even do this? What about Special Masters' programs? This seems more up my alley since I will be taking most if not all of my prereqs as a requisite of my major.

Will my science GPA and upper division coursework offset my first-year lower division blunders significantly enough to impress any adcoms? I've been a superstar the last two years, but I'm not sure that makes a difference.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

So you think Bachelors Degree + Postbac would look better than simply fulfilling the prereqs while undergrad?

<snip>

Would it help to take additional coursework in upper division sciences over and above the Bachelors' Degree if one has already met the prerequisites? Can one even do this? What about Special Masters' programs? This seems more up my alley since I will be taking most if not all of my prereqs as a requisite of my major.

Personally, I don't think it matters where/when you take your science classes. What other people have been saying (and I agree with) is that you will need to take a significant number of upper-division science classes to prove that you can handle the academic rigor of medical school, given your past.

You need to take more science classes than just the prerequisites for medical school (and do very well in them) if you are trying to make up for a low GPA in the past. Whether you take those classes as part of your degree or after you earn your degree probably doesn't make much of a difference.

 

[thirdunity]

Personally, I don't think it matters where/when you take your science classes. What other people have been saying (and I agree with) is that you will need to take a significant number of upper-division science classes to prove that you can handle the academic rigor of medical school, given your past.

You need to take more science classes than just the prerequisites for medical school (and do very well in them) if you are trying to make up for a low GPA in the past. Whether you take those classes as part of your degree or after you earn your degree probably doesn't make much of a difference.

Hm. OK. It sounds like I could do this in the course of my biology degree. And again, I'm taking bio because I love science and want to study bio... not because I'm premed. Will the schools look at the upward trend, even if I had a really shaky year or two and a lot of "false starts" in school, or do they just throw away apps they get from people who show an unimpressive GPA? Will I even get the chance to say, "Well, I was a slacker for a long time, but now I am a good student"?

For the record - the courses I screwed up were mostly the humanities and liberal arts GEs. Not science classes. Since overcoming the math block, definitely not math. I love math and science. It's things like poli sci and art history that gave me the creeping dreads.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Hm. OK. It sounds like I could do this in the course of my biology degree. And again, I'm taking bio because I love science and want to study bio... not because I'm premed. Will the schools look at the upward trend, even if I had a really shaky year or two and a lot of "false starts" in school, or do they just throw away apps they get from people who show an unimpressive GPA? Will I even get the chance to say, "Well, I was a slacker for a long time, but now I am a good student"?

For the record - the courses I screwed up were mostly the humanities and liberal arts GEs. Not science classes. Since overcoming the math block, definitely not math. I love math and science. It's things like poli sci and art history that gave me the creeping dreads.

Sounds like you are actually in better shape than you think. You will have to be able to explain your past and demonstrate that things have definitely changed (which it looks like you are doing) in your grades, but just keep up what you are doing, and, well, that's the best you can do anyway, right?

Both your science and overall GPA will be computed. It sounds like your science GPA will be very good, based upon what you have said.

Some extremely competitive medical schools may "screen" you out early based upon just your GPA (and usually MCAT score,) but, this is often based upon your science GPA (one rule of thumb is 10*Science GPA + MCAT > 65 makes you a competitive applicant). Also, the more balanced those two components are, the better (4.0 GPA with 25 MCAT would probably raise more eyebrows than 3.5 GPA, 30 MCAT.) Although this particular example is based upon science GPA, you still want to make sure that your overall GPA is reasonable, to show that you are not a one-trick-pony.

GPA is just one facet of your application. If you can continue to show improvement over your past situation, and back that up with a good MCAT score, you'll be able to make a very good case for yourself as an applicant

Good Luck,

Jota

 

[thirdunity]

My GPA presently is in the 3.1ish range. I am the equivalent of a sophomore, but am doing a full extra two years of lower division coursework to get into my UC of choice's restricted undergrad major.

What kind of "excuse" are they looking for, about my past? I haven't got anything to say for myself other than saying, "Well, I was a slacker, I didn't have the tools and I didn't have good time management skills. Then I hit my 30s, did some thinking about my life and turned things around."

It seems like they want to hear, "I raised three kids" or "I had to work full time" or something like that. I don't really have that kind of a story. I pretty much just goofed off and wasted my time during my 20s. I was also deeply depressed during most of my 20s, and felt like my life had very little meaning, which turned around - interestingly - after I stopped goofing off and got serious.

The main thing dragging down my GPA is the fact that I have some fails in my past. The number of fails, by the way, totals at about five (maybe six; unknown), plus one D (in graphics), totalling in about the equivalent of an entire blown year of school. I've also taken the equivalent of two or more years of school and *done well*; much of this is toward the vocational AA (in graphics) which I haven't finished. The decision not to finish came in the middle of the class in which I got a D, and at about that point, I decided to change careers as well.

I've already repeated one of them (a GE requirement) and I'm in the process of repeating a second. Another is in an unrepeatable (very obscure) class, and yet another is a clerical error - I only showed for the first meeting, and thought I had dropped the course - by the way, both of these were over 12 years ago! However, I'm still stuck with it as there's no way I can prove to the school that there was a mistake.

Will it make any difference whatsoever if I repeated all of these courses (or got As in the equivalent unit load) or will the GPA boost be so miniscule that it won't be worth the effort? The CC I go to has no limit on the number of courses I can take. I just can't *transfer* them all to the UC.

And I will repeat them/take more classes if I have to. Better to spend $28 a unit now than thousands later.

 

[njbmd]

Hey folks.

Here's a question I have.

What would look better to med schools?

I am a biology major. It will take me a long time to finish my degree, because through my 20s I *wasn't* a science major so I am having to take the math and science prerequisites from scratch. I also was a righteous f---up during my 20s, so my GPA will never be very high (I think I can hope for about a 3.4).

I am considering that because I'll probably never be able to get my GPA into "competitive med school range", one option would be to transfer to the UC under another major - say, anthropology - then do postbac after I graduate.

What would be better, getting my bio degree or getting a degree in something else + doing postbac?

Hi there,
Please change your thinking about your major from "what will look better to med schools" to what you love the most and what you can get the highest grades in. GPA is going to be a major factor in whether or not you get into medical school period. An applicant with a higher GPA in any subject (undergraduate more important than post bacc or graduate) is going to be more competitive than an applicant with a poor undergraduate GPA period. The subject of your major does not matter, it is how well you mastered your major.

Post baccs are of several kinds. There is the post bacc for non-science majors who did not take the pre-med courses as undergraduates but still have a competitive undergraduate GPA. People who do well in this type of post bacc have been very successful in getting into medical school. An example of this type of post bacc is the pre-med post bacc at Johns Hopkins University.

There are post baccs that allow people to take essentially the same courses as medical students. If they do well in their coursework, they are admitted to the first or second year of the medical school. An example of this type of post bacc is the Special Masters in Physiology at Georgetown University.

There are post baccs with direct linkages such as Gouchers and Bryn Mawr where good performance gets you directly into a medical school. The coursework is generally the pre-med coursework and generally these post baccs are can be for people who need to take a fresh start or get courses that they missed.

Finally, there are the informal post bacc (any courses that you take that are not part of a formal graduate program and after you have recieved your bachelors degree) that can be for increased knowledge, increased experience or better grades because you have done poorly in the pre-med courses in your youth. Re-taking the pre-med courses is a very good idea if you have been away from this material for a while or if you did very poorly (Ds or Fs) the first time around.

You need to be sure that you take courses of sufficient depth that you can have a solid knowledge-base to apply to the manner of questioning on the MCAT and that you have shown a steady improvement in your GPA. Even with a steady improvement, some schools will screen you out because of your initially poor GPA (do not apply to these schools).

There have been people who have come from the depths of GPAs of 1.0 and gotten into medical school by doing very well in all of their coursework and thoroughly preparing for the MCAT. They also carefully chose the schools that they applied to.

Get busy and plot a strategy that will give you the best knowledge foundation and best preparation for medical school. Good performance in academics looks best to an admissions committee.

njbmd