I am about to purchase a BIO and I'm leaning towards the Keeler Vantage Plus LED. Does anybody have any input about the LED compared to the Xenon bulb? 
BIO Keeler Vantage Plus LED
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Check out this website before you buy:
http://www.heine-na.com/unplugged/
I heard of at least one optometry school that ordered the BIO with LED and after the instructor saw the color differences, he demanded that Keeler exchange them for regular Xenon bulbs.
Plus they are dang bright as a patient!
http://www.heine-na.com/unplugged/
I heard of at least one optometry school that ordered the BIO with LED and after the instructor saw the color differences, he demanded that Keeler exchange them for regular Xenon bulbs.
Plus they are dang bright as a patient!
Check out this website before you buy:
http://www.heine-na.com/unplugged/
I heard of at least one optometry school that ordered the BIO with LED and after the instructor saw the color differences, he demanded that Keeler exchange them for regular Xenon bulbs.
Plus they are dang bright as a patient!
I don't trust them. I heard that they highly criticized Keeler's wireless BIO until they came up with their own.
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dilator82-
I felt that way too at first, but then I talked to them. They make plenty of other equipment with LED bulbs. They are fully capable of switching bulbs, but they are taking the stance that they will never make an LED BIO because of the inferior quality.
I felt that way too at first, but then I talked to them. They make plenty of other equipment with LED bulbs. They are fully capable of switching bulbs, but they are taking the stance that they will never make an LED BIO because of the inferior quality.
dilator82-
I felt that way too at first, but then I talked to them..quote]
They lied to us!
http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/techplan-deploy/pdf/colorrender.pdf
http://www.slg.ch/pdf/publikation177.pdf
I wanted to clarify a couple of things, as a 4th year who was around before Heine came out with their wireless (which is outstanding). They never said bad things about Keeler's back when I was a 2nd year, they simply said they would come out with one when the technology caught up with the idea. If you look at theirs compared to the wireless, that is exactly what they did.
As for the LED, I have seen all the documentation. Check the US Dept. of Energy documents, because they say:
As for the LED, I have seen all the documentation. Check the US Dept. of Energy documents, because they say:
A long-term research and development process is underway to develop a revised color quality metric that would be applicable to all white light sources. In the meantime, CRI can be considered as one data point in evaluating white LED products and systems. It should not be used to make product selections in the absence of in-person and on-site
evaluations.
Specifically, we recommend the following:
1. Identify the visual tasks to be performed under the light source. If color fidelity under different light sources is critically important (for example in a space where color or fabric comparisons are made under both daylight and electric lighting), CRI values may be a useful metric for rating LED products.
So Heine hasn't lied about anything, Color Rendering can be useful in comparing light sources if color fidelity is important (your decision).
I can tell you after using both that the LED DOES give you a different view. Bottom line is you have to compare LED and Xenon side by side to see the differences and then decide for yourself which you want to use.
evaluations.
Specifically, we recommend the following:
1. Identify the visual tasks to be performed under the light source. If color fidelity under different light sources is critically important (for example in a space where color or fabric comparisons are made under both daylight and electric lighting), CRI values may be a useful metric for rating LED products.
So Heine hasn't lied about anything, Color Rendering can be useful in comparing light sources if color fidelity is important (your decision).
I can tell you after using both that the LED DOES give you a different view. Bottom line is you have to compare LED and Xenon side by side to see the differences and then decide for yourself which you want to use.
From Heine
LEDs are very poor at providing accurate color rendering.
Color Rendering Index, by definition, is a quantitative measure of the ability of a light source to reproduce the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source. Light sources with a high CRI are desirable in color-critical applications.
A CRI rating on a scale of 0 to 100 will indicate how accurately colors will be perceived under a light source. Light sources with a CRI of 90 or higher are excellent at color rendering and should be used for tasks requiring the most accurate color discrimination.
From US. Department of Energy
CIE Technical Report 177:2007, Color Rendering of White LED Light Sources, states, The conclusion of the Technical Committee is that the CIE CRI is generally not applicableto predict the color rendering rank order of a set of light sources when white LED lightsources are involved in this set.
LEDs are very poor at providing accurate color rendering.
Color Rendering Index, by definition, is a quantitative measure of the ability of a light source to reproduce the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source. Light sources with a high CRI are desirable in color-critical applications.
A CRI rating on a scale of 0 to 100 will indicate how accurately colors will be perceived under a light source. Light sources with a CRI of 90 or higher are excellent at color rendering and should be used for tasks requiring the most accurate color discrimination.
From US. Department of Energy
CIE Technical Report 177:2007, Color Rendering of White LED Light Sources, states, The conclusion of the Technical Committee is that the CIE CRI is generally not applicableto predict the color rendering rank order of a set of light sources when white LED lightsources are involved in this set.
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I was suckered into purchasing the Vantage Plus LED. I exchanged it within a month for a Heine Omega 500 and I am now very pleased. Most of the people in my lab had originally purchased the LED and have exchanged it for either the Vantage Plus with Xenon bulb or a Heine. The colors are distorted, somewhat grey and it is difficult to see a red retinal reflex. Get whatever you prefer but just know that the Keeler reps will push the Vantage Plus LED hard...
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For what it is worth I inquired about this instrument from my local rep in Chicago and he said that to date their company has sold over 300 units with only the ones coming from NOVA SECO coming back. I looked at it and am still undecided
To Dilator82.
Did you read the rest of the US Dept of Energy Document?
A long-term research and development process is underway to develop a revised color quality metric that would be applicable to all white light sources. In the meantime, CRI can be considered as one data point in evaluating white LED products and systems. It should not be used to make product selections in the absence of in-person and on-site evaluations.
Specifically, we recommend the following:
1. Identify the visual tasks to be performed under the light source. If color fidelity under different light sources is critically important (for example in a space where color or fabric comparisons are made under both daylight and electric lighting), CRI values may be a useful metric for rating LED products.
Your comments made me curious, so I checked the Heine info more closely. I noticed 2 things:
1. Their CRI score of 98.5 is relevant, as CRI applies to Xenon light sources. Seems pretty close to 100% accurate to me.
2. There is no way to 100% quantify the color rendering properties of LEDs at this point according to the US Dept of Energy. That in itself is alarming, don't you think? Even if you don't compare Xenon to LED, how do you evaluate the color rendering properties of an LED? If you want to not like Heine, thats cool, but focus on why you would want LED in the first place. You'll have a hard time finding a good reason (don't say bulbs dying, cause I haven't replaced a bulb in over 4 years).
I also read that the color temp of the LED is 7200K! The Dept of Energy study doesn't question Color Temperature ratings of LEDs. Check 7200 on the Kelvin scale, because it is a BLUE light.
Keep in mind that all of the Heine data applies to the benefits of the Keeler Xenon BIOs as well, so Heine isn't necessarily selling the benefits of Xenon just for themselves. "odmissy" made the comment that some of her classmates exchanged for the Keeler Xenon.
That makes their info a little more credible to me.
Did you read the rest of the US Dept of Energy Document?
A long-term research and development process is underway to develop a revised color quality metric that would be applicable to all white light sources. In the meantime, CRI can be considered as one data point in evaluating white LED products and systems. It should not be used to make product selections in the absence of in-person and on-site evaluations.
Specifically, we recommend the following:
1. Identify the visual tasks to be performed under the light source. If color fidelity under different light sources is critically important (for example in a space where color or fabric comparisons are made under both daylight and electric lighting), CRI values may be a useful metric for rating LED products.
Your comments made me curious, so I checked the Heine info more closely. I noticed 2 things:
1. Their CRI score of 98.5 is relevant, as CRI applies to Xenon light sources. Seems pretty close to 100% accurate to me.
2. There is no way to 100% quantify the color rendering properties of LEDs at this point according to the US Dept of Energy. That in itself is alarming, don't you think? Even if you don't compare Xenon to LED, how do you evaluate the color rendering properties of an LED? If you want to not like Heine, thats cool, but focus on why you would want LED in the first place. You'll have a hard time finding a good reason (don't say bulbs dying, cause I haven't replaced a bulb in over 4 years).
I also read that the color temp of the LED is 7200K! The Dept of Energy study doesn't question Color Temperature ratings of LEDs. Check 7200 on the Kelvin scale, because it is a BLUE light.
Keep in mind that all of the Heine data applies to the benefits of the Keeler Xenon BIOs as well, so Heine isn't necessarily selling the benefits of Xenon just for themselves. "odmissy" made the comment that some of her classmates exchanged for the Keeler Xenon.
That makes their info a little more credible to me.
I totally agree with Foreyes based on the information that was presented to my class.
Nearly our entire class decided on Heine. Most everyone decided on the Unplugged because of the optics and overall functionality. Everyone is really happy with them and no problems at all that I have heard of.
We did hear discussions about the color rendering with the Keeler LED and other schools that have gotten it and have had issues with pathology. We also heard about an inability to see a red reflex and concerns with patient comfort.
The fact that most of the upperclassmen have Heine too made it an easy choice for me.
Nearly our entire class decided on Heine. Most everyone decided on the Unplugged because of the optics and overall functionality. Everyone is really happy with them and no problems at all that I have heard of.
We did hear discussions about the color rendering with the Keeler LED and other schools that have gotten it and have had issues with pathology. We also heard about an inability to see a red reflex and concerns with patient comfort.
The fact that most of the upperclassmen have Heine too made it an easy choice for me.
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I would strongly advise against the LED, mainly due to patient comfort.
There's lots of theory and "I heard from X" in this thread, but unfortunately little direct evidence from people who have tried both.
I've been on the doctor and patient side of the LED. From the doctor's, it seems, well, different, but I'm not sure if I would say better or worse. Then again, I'm still a student and not an expert at performing BIO, so I'm probably not really qualified to really compare it on that end.
From the patient's perspective, however, it's horrific. Even on the lowest setting (and as the doctor, you really can't see anything very well with that) it's much, much brighter than any other BIO. After sitting as a patient for classmates with the LED at practically the lowest illumination, anyone afterward with any other BIO can max the illumination and it's still not nearly as uncomfortable.
Many of the people in my class who bought the LED are having it switched out. At this point, classmates try to avoid practicing with students who have the LEDs so they don't have to sit as a patient for them.
Other BIOs are somewhat annoying; the LED is actually bad enough that as a patient, I wouldn't go to a doctor who used one if another doctor used something else. Patients always whine about NCT and loss of accommodation from dilation drops; in my mind, being blasted by the LED is much, much worse.
The very best thing to do is to try it and any other BIOs you might be interested in as both a doctor and a patient (looking through them and having someone look at you with them), and then make your decision.
There's lots of theory and "I heard from X" in this thread, but unfortunately little direct evidence from people who have tried both.
I've been on the doctor and patient side of the LED. From the doctor's, it seems, well, different, but I'm not sure if I would say better or worse. Then again, I'm still a student and not an expert at performing BIO, so I'm probably not really qualified to really compare it on that end.
From the patient's perspective, however, it's horrific. Even on the lowest setting (and as the doctor, you really can't see anything very well with that) it's much, much brighter than any other BIO. After sitting as a patient for classmates with the LED at practically the lowest illumination, anyone afterward with any other BIO can max the illumination and it's still not nearly as uncomfortable.
Many of the people in my class who bought the LED are having it switched out. At this point, classmates try to avoid practicing with students who have the LEDs so they don't have to sit as a patient for them.
Other BIOs are somewhat annoying; the LED is actually bad enough that as a patient, I wouldn't go to a doctor who used one if another doctor used something else. Patients always whine about NCT and loss of accommodation from dilation drops; in my mind, being blasted by the LED is much, much worse.
The very best thing to do is to try it and any other BIOs you might be interested in as both a doctor and a patient (looking through them and having someone look at you with them), and then make your decision.
I have also tried both the Heine and Keeler LED both as doc and patient. The LED is a little bit harder to learn with because you don't get the bright red reflex, which helps me know that I'm positioned correctly. Honestly, when I had BIO performed on me with both, the LED was brighter but not more uncomfortable, however, it completely bleached out my retina at the shorter wavelengths and I saw red in that eye for quite some time. If you use LED make sure you are quick! I love the Keeler Slimline Vantage plus with xenon (you replace bulbs every 5 years, according to a rep) it comes with an extra battery (don't fall for the Heine explanation for one battery, do you really want to perform BIO plugged into a wall? that's far worse than the M-pack!) and a lot more padding on the headband, and a desk/wall mountable charger (Heine allows you to use all your points to purchase one for $150 instead of $300). Easy choice, if you ask me.
The reason that I decided on the Unplugged was not only for the optics, but also for the functionality.
I know that you get the extra battery with the Keeler, but you need one since there is no corded back up option and the Keeler doesn't offer the scale to show how much battery life is available. I also heard during presentations that the slimline really doens't perform well with xenon and offers a maximum of 90 minutes of use.
The fact that Heine offers the cord to charge directly and use as a back up is great. Even using it as much as I do currently I really have only had to charge it a couple of times this year.
By the way, I didn't know that Heine was offering the wall mount for $150 but with the price of the Keeler's being more expensive I would think that it would be a great deal to have both charging options. Keeler doesn't offer a mobile transformer so to me it is a no brainer. Better optics and better functionality go with Heine.
I know that you get the extra battery with the Keeler, but you need one since there is no corded back up option and the Keeler doesn't offer the scale to show how much battery life is available. I also heard during presentations that the slimline really doens't perform well with xenon and offers a maximum of 90 minutes of use.
The fact that Heine offers the cord to charge directly and use as a back up is great. Even using it as much as I do currently I really have only had to charge it a couple of times this year.
By the way, I didn't know that Heine was offering the wall mount for $150 but with the price of the Keeler's being more expensive I would think that it would be a great deal to have both charging options. Keeler doesn't offer a mobile transformer so to me it is a no brainer. Better optics and better functionality go with Heine.
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It's funny you should mention this b/c I just did that last week in clinic. I didn't think it was a big dealmy bio battery lasts for like a month or two. It wasn't a problem though...the battery died towards the end of my first exam, so I plugged it in right away to finish that exam. All I had to do was rotate the exam chair a little bit. The bio was fully charged by the time I was done with my second one, haha. Usually I catch that it's low and charge it overnight, so it's rarely a problem.
Anyways, I was impressed with both the Keeler and the Heine's when I was looking to make my decision. I don't think you can go wrong with either one (this was before the whole LED debate). My advice with that is to stay away from LEDs since the red reflex can be pretty useful!
