Bipolar
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Depression/mental issues/learning disorders/every excuse you can think of for a low GPA is a regular story on SDN.
1. You'll have to prove that you can do very well in another post-bacc program.
2. You'll have to prove that your mental illness is completely under control and will not affect you in medical school (and beyond).
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Low gpa will be hard to fix, you are prolly should aim for DO. even then, your misdemeanor will show up in interview in which you have to explain it. this would def put them off if you mention ur mental illness because med school and residency is tough mentally and physically.
In all honesty, as a patient or a relative of a patient, i would absolutely never want to put my own or the healthcare of my family to a physician with mental problems if i was made aware. Sorry for the deliberate feedback.
In all honesty, as a patient or a relative of a patient, i would absolutely never want to put my own or the healthcare of my family to a physician with mental problems if i was made aware. Sorry for the deliberate feedback.
At this point, it's hard to say what impact this could have on your application.
You obviously have a verifiable medical condition that explains your legal issues and grades. What you need to do now is prove that you've moved past this issue and you have it under control. You're on the right track by planning the post-bacc work. That will help you to show that you've moved on and you can handle an academic courseload. It will also help you to raise your GPA.
I came across a blog a while back that I managed to find again for you. It was written by a medical student who is bipolar. I believe she has graduated now and the blog hasn't been updated in a couple years, but it might be worth it to take a look. You can gain some perspective on what it's like to be bipolar in med school and with any luck you can probably contact the author for some advice. You can find the blog here: http://bipolarinmedschool.blogspot.com/
I hope this helps!
You obviously have a verifiable medical condition that explains your legal issues and grades. What you need to do now is prove that you've moved past this issue and you have it under control. You're on the right track by planning the post-bacc work. That will help you to show that you've moved on and you can handle an academic courseload. It will also help you to raise your GPA.
I came across a blog a while back that I managed to find again for you. It was written by a medical student who is bipolar. I believe she has graduated now and the blog hasn't been updated in a couple years, but it might be worth it to take a look. You can gain some perspective on what it's like to be bipolar in med school and with any luck you can probably contact the author for some advice. You can find the blog here: http://bipolarinmedschool.blogspot.com/
I hope this helps!
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You could write your ps on how you want to be a psychiatrist because it takes one to know one. 🙂
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Honestly, just the bipolar diagnosis could preclude you from acceptances in some cases. Add in the history of severe episodes and now adcoms have good reason to be concerned about your mental stability. Add in the fact that you got expelled, and your application is practically DOA. Add on the criminal convictions and your application's coffin is nailed shut. Add in your low GPA and that coffin is welded shut.
I don't like to tell people that their dream isn't going to ever happen but...well, your dream isn't ever going to happen. An SMP isn't going to help you. You could get a 4.0 from that SMP and you would still get rejected from everywhere you apply to.
And honestly, medicine probably wouldn't be a good career choice for you anyway. The stress gets so intense at every step along the way that it's all but guaranteed you would have many more severe bipolar episodes.
I don't like to tell people that their dream isn't going to ever happen but...well, your dream isn't ever going to happen. An SMP isn't going to help you. You could get a 4.0 from that SMP and you would still get rejected from everywhere you apply to.
And honestly, medicine probably wouldn't be a good career choice for you anyway. The stress gets so intense at every step along the way that it's all but guaranteed you would have many more severe bipolar episodes.
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I read once about a schizophrenic who became a psychiatrist.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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OP, having gone through medical school and intern year, my advice to you would be to choose another career path. I say this mostly out of concern for your own health and well-being. Your illness is currently under control, and from what you've said, you appear to be functioning at a good level now. In the case of a person like you whose manic episode was severe enough to require hospitalization, I would be very, very hesitant to mess with an apparently successful remission. Being sleep-deprived and not seeing the sun for days or weeks at a time is not healthy for anyone, but especially for a bipolar person. Sleep-deprivation in particular can set off an impressive manic episode.
That being said, you probably aren't going to take my advice to do something else, so here is my advice on what to do if you're going to proceed: go slowly. A lot of your chances of success will depend on how good your insight is. Specifically, you will need to be very aware of when you might be starting to slide into either a manic or a depressive episode so that you can get help quickly. You should also have a very good support system in place, including whomever prescribes your meds as well as a therapist.
I would start by adding on a few hours of shadowing or volunteering per week. Do this for a semester, then take one class and see how it goes. Resist the temptation to add on too much, too fast. If you find yourself getting overwhelmed, cut back.
Finally, you need to be aware that even under the best of circumstances (excellent stats, ECs, LORs, etc.), most adcoms will balk at taking an applicant like you. The risk of your relapsing under the pressure of med school/residency is significant, and there are plenty of other candidates without bipolar disease that they can take instead. You will therefore need to apply very broadly. IMO, you should also be up front about your illness. You will not be able to hide having been expelled from school or the legal actions on your record anyway, so I would suggest focusing on what steps you have taken over the past two years to maintain your remission, as well as what steps you will continue to take to allow you to make it through medical school and residency successfully.
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck, and health.
Edit: also, please don't cross post the same thread in multiple forums. I am combining your two threads together.
That being said, you probably aren't going to take my advice to do something else, so here is my advice on what to do if you're going to proceed: go slowly. A lot of your chances of success will depend on how good your insight is. Specifically, you will need to be very aware of when you might be starting to slide into either a manic or a depressive episode so that you can get help quickly. You should also have a very good support system in place, including whomever prescribes your meds as well as a therapist.
I would start by adding on a few hours of shadowing or volunteering per week. Do this for a semester, then take one class and see how it goes. Resist the temptation to add on too much, too fast. If you find yourself getting overwhelmed, cut back.
Finally, you need to be aware that even under the best of circumstances (excellent stats, ECs, LORs, etc.), most adcoms will balk at taking an applicant like you. The risk of your relapsing under the pressure of med school/residency is significant, and there are plenty of other candidates without bipolar disease that they can take instead. You will therefore need to apply very broadly. IMO, you should also be up front about your illness. You will not be able to hide having been expelled from school or the legal actions on your record anyway, so I would suggest focusing on what steps you have taken over the past two years to maintain your remission, as well as what steps you will continue to take to allow you to make it through medical school and residency successfully.
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck, and health.
Edit: also, please don't cross post the same thread in multiple forums. I am combining your two threads together.
This. OP, there are a lot of people who go to medical school who have mental health issues ranging from anxiety to depression to bipolar disorder. I've even joked a few times some degree of psych pathology is required to do what docs do.
Of those that go, only some of them should be there. The rest are putting themselves and/or their patients in jeopardy. The difference I think largely is insight, like Q said. The people that walk in thinking they're in control, that there's a low risk for issues because they've been stable, so on and so forth are the ones most at risk of crashing and burning or hurting patients.
The people who seem to be successful are those who walk in with a support system, with a plan, with people to check them and help them stay on track and point out if they're sliding are the one's with a better chance of making it through ok. That requires you to be honest with yourself and your support system. If you do go ahead know that you have a long hard road and that you need to have a solid team (docs, family, friends) in place. You need to have plans in place for what happens if you have a manic episode, or crash into a depression during exam week, and all that stuff. Make sure you can be honest with yourself about the risk you pose to patients, remember those are the people you're trying to help. Even anxiety issues can lead a doctor to do things that hurt a patient, hesitating on urgent treatment or being afraid to admit (and thus correct) a mistake that they made etc.
Keep in mind, criminal charges can limit your hospital access depending on what the charges were. If you do get in and go through, you'll most likely need to be followed by some kind of state monitoring board for your licensure. People in medicine aren't that kind towards mental illnesses, especially in other docs. Unfortunately if people know about your diagnoses you'll probably find them attributing every mistake you make to bipolar even if it had nothing to do with it and another resident did the same thing two weeks ago just due to being tired. Browse the psych residency forum a bit for more on that and how some of that stigma works in the medical field. Just remember not to ask for medical information from them.
If you do decide to try and go this route, do like Q said and ease yourself into it and check yourself every step of the way.
Of those that go, only some of them should be there. The rest are putting themselves and/or their patients in jeopardy. The difference I think largely is insight, like Q said. The people that walk in thinking they're in control, that there's a low risk for issues because they've been stable, so on and so forth are the ones most at risk of crashing and burning or hurting patients.
The people who seem to be successful are those who walk in with a support system, with a plan, with people to check them and help them stay on track and point out if they're sliding are the one's with a better chance of making it through ok. That requires you to be honest with yourself and your support system. If you do go ahead know that you have a long hard road and that you need to have a solid team (docs, family, friends) in place. You need to have plans in place for what happens if you have a manic episode, or crash into a depression during exam week, and all that stuff. Make sure you can be honest with yourself about the risk you pose to patients, remember those are the people you're trying to help. Even anxiety issues can lead a doctor to do things that hurt a patient, hesitating on urgent treatment or being afraid to admit (and thus correct) a mistake that they made etc.
Keep in mind, criminal charges can limit your hospital access depending on what the charges were. If you do get in and go through, you'll most likely need to be followed by some kind of state monitoring board for your licensure. People in medicine aren't that kind towards mental illnesses, especially in other docs. Unfortunately if people know about your diagnoses you'll probably find them attributing every mistake you make to bipolar even if it had nothing to do with it and another resident did the same thing two weeks ago just due to being tired. Browse the psych residency forum a bit for more on that and how some of that stigma works in the medical field. Just remember not to ask for medical information from them.
If you do decide to try and go this route, do like Q said and ease yourself into it and check yourself every step of the way.
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Assuming by "high on pots" you mean marijuana, then you have committed a crime. I doubt you can sue a school for expelling you because of criminal activity.
Also, how will you explain everything that has happened while still managing to hide your mental illness?
If your mental illness doesn't keep you out of med school, it will keep you from succeeding.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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Well, if you're up front about being bipolar, that will explain it. Why are you suing the school rather than going through their grievance process? It would be a lot cheaper and easier to get this taken care of in-house if possible. Or have you tried that already and run out of appeals?
If you've learned anything from reading the forums on SDN, what you should have taken away is that you are *unlikely* to garner much sympathy based on your health issues. Instead, you will be scrutinized much more closely than most other applicants, and yes, being bipolar will probably be held against you in many cases.
It's entirely possible that you wouldn't have a relapse, and that you'd be fine handling your mental health issues in private. However, if you do relapse, you will need your school's support for a leave of absence and other necessary allowances to be made in order for you to complete your degree. If a medical school will not do this for you, it is best to know about that ahead of time rather than finding out while you're in the middle of a relapse. Regardless, again, my advice to you would still be not to go to medical school at all.
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Good one Bro!
Never heard that one before.
Could you dial up the stupid anymore. No....yours goes to 11, I see.
OP, Good luck but beware. There are plenty of good careers in healthcare that don't threaten one's health. Medicine puts miles on your mind and body like no career I've ever seen or been close to.
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Your protections will come under ADA (and simular state laws)
Your main hurdle will be proving you are fit to practice (the outburts won't help) if you can prove that new therapy or medication helped fix it, then it should be viewed as less of a current problem and more of a managable disability. I know many schools allow special testing accomodations for person with physical or mental disabilities, but it may differ based on type of program and type of labs that need done (still worth looking into though)
The other issue will of course be your dismissal from your last school since many schools will ask if you have ever been disiplined by another school ( you can try to explain it as disabiltiy related in your personal statement, but it will still pop up as an admissions flag that you need to be prepared for)
If you were arrested (even if not charged) you may want to be prepared for that to be an issue too. (it often can be since they often ask if you have ever been arrested even if not leading to a conviction, or have an expunged record).
Wishing you the best all the way though. We all have issues and all make mistakes. They vary by person to person, but I do hope you do well. Good luck brother. (or sister, whichever applies)
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I don't have anything helpful to add, I just wanted to thank the OP for starting this thread. I have psychotic major depression, and I'm currently trying to decide whether I'm stable enough to re-pursue the Nursing and Medical career I gave up on a decade ago. Reading some of the responses in here has been helpful, at least from the point of view of starting to make an informed decision. 🙂
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I think this is very important. If you were expelled simply because you had a break down in your mental health, you would probably have a case. If you were breaking the law, which it sounds like you were, I am pretty sure the ADA won't help you there. Talk to your lawyer about it, but I doubt you will have any luck there, and if anything, bringing suit against a former school of yours will make med school a lot less likely to want to take a chance on you.
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she never asked if she could sue
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A post above mentioned talking to a lawyer about suing the school.
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One of my classmates with bipolar had been very stable and on the same med for a number of years, but halfway through the first clinical year had a "wobble." S/he then had to take a year and a half out of studying to get better. I often say that studying medicine brings out the worst in people, and that's especially true for those of us with medical conditions, such as mental health disorders. It might be helpful to talk to your treating physician and get their opinion.
If you want to pursue medicine, then get very comfortable with the fact that this will need to be disclosed to several parties (state licensing boards, educational establishments, occupational health, supervisors) and that not all of them will respect your right to privacy. Yes, you can complain and even sue them, but you can't un-ring a bell.
As others have said, there are other options for fulfilling the desire to help people without endangering yourself or your patients. Suing a prior educational establishment is a huge red flag in my mind. I would strongly encourage you to pursue other options.
Teaching is often cited as a popular alternative to being a doctor.
If you want to pursue medicine, then get very comfortable with the fact that this will need to be disclosed to several parties (state licensing boards, educational establishments, occupational health, supervisors) and that not all of them will respect your right to privacy. Yes, you can complain and even sue them, but you can't un-ring a bell.
As others have said, there are other options for fulfilling the desire to help people without endangering yourself or your patients. Suing a prior educational establishment is a huge red flag in my mind. I would strongly encourage you to pursue other options.
Teaching is often cited as a popular alternative to being a doctor.
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Why would you have to disclose this?
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You don't have to disclose, BUT if you get sick and you need to ask the school for help and accommodations, you will have to disclose it in order to qualify for accommodations. The good part being that med schools want to keep you in school, because losing you means losing a $%&@load of money for them. The bad news being, it will then be on your "permanent record". I think it's important to have some years of being stable and on the same meds under your belt, discuss a strategy with your doctor, address symptoms as soon as they start, and have a plan to act on if things get out of control.
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I'm actually really angry about this statement. I know people who have made it through med school with a mental illness on board. I've also been told by someone very high up (who's also been there for decades as a professor, an MD, and a board member amongst other things) at UT Southwestern that it's very possible. There are multiple books out there written by successful doctors about their experiences with mental illness before, during, and after med school. I hope you wouldn't tell a patient that their illness, mental or otherwise, will keep them from success. You might as well have added at the end, "so you might as well give up." What kind of attitude is that?! Shame on you for saying such a thing.
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Unless you've been practicing psychiatry with a focus on mood disorders for a couple decades, I don't recommend trying to make a prognosis for this person. Even if you had the training and experience necessary, you are not familiar with this person's COMPLETE medical history, nor do you have experience with observing and treating this person over any significant period of time. You are correct that sleep deprivation and reversing days and nights are particularly harmful to people with bipolar, but clearly you aren't familiar with the fact that there are strategies to deal with this. Are these strategies a cure? Of course not, but they're worth trying. I would also like to clarify that sleep deprivation can set off cycling, but it can also provide a temporary anti-depressant effect. I don't recommend relying on it providing that anti-depressant effect, it just bothers me when people (even MDs) try to talk about mood disorders when they clearly don't have a full understanding of the topic and/or their neuroscience knowledge is lacking.
The only thing we do know for sure is that whenever someone has a chronic illness and they want to undertake a huge task like med school, they should definitely have a fantastic doctor, therapist, and support system.
Above all, don't tell anyone they can't do something--especially when you don't have all the information to do so.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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I didn't. I stated there was a risk that s/he could relapse. There *is* a risk that s/he could relapse.
I have to chuckle at the irony of you first criticizing me for not knowing all the info about the OP before giving my opinion, followed by you giving your opinion about what I must not know without you having much of any info about me. 😛
So think of me as a regular person with extensive experience with how medical training works, and not as an MD seeing a patient. Because that was the context from which I was arguing.
We agree completely here. I said the exact same thing.
I didn't. I told the OP that I don't think they *should* go to medical school, not that I didn't think they *could* go. The OP posted a thread asking for people's opinions and advice. Several other people and I chose to give our opinions and advice. No one can complain about the price of my opinion; the OP can take it or leave it as s/he chooses. So can you. So can everyone else. FWIW, I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I do think it's fair to request that you criticize what I actually said. Your entire response to me was arguing against a straw man.
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This made me pretty angry for a second, but then I re-read your sentence and you are mostly likely referring to the OP specifically and not everyone with a mental illness. I don't think it is fair to say that everyone with a mental illness will fail in medical school. Depression is a mental illness and I know plenty of depressed medical students, residents and attendings 😛. Although, I DO think that choosing to go down this path with uncontrolled bipolar disorder may make medical education near impossible.
OP - you need to think long and hard about what you are getting yourself into in deciding to pursue medicine and luckily you have some GPA repair to do, so this will give you the time you need. ALTHOUGH it makes me concerned that you are so fresh off this "maniac attack" (it is "manic episode" by the way, if that is what it was) and that it had such dire consequences for you.
Take a few years, sort yourself and your emotions out. If then, you have the support of your psychiatrist, friends and family to continue to pursue medicine then maybe come back to the idea again.
I am not speaking from the point of view of a physician, or even a medical student (still only applying this year), but just someone looking to give an opinion you may find helpful.
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Just read through this thread one more time carefully...
This quoted above - this is BS. Actually you did commit a crime. Saying "this is what many bipolars do..." is... well it is just crappy. If you are choosing to take the route of "well my illness made me do it..." then you shouldn't pursue a medical education. Just because someone is an alcoholic still doesn't make it legal for them to drink and drive.
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This is what I was addressing:
Originally Posted by QofQuimica
OP, having gone through medical school and intern year, my advice to you would be to choose another career path.
I read this as you saying to the OP, "I advise you to choose another career path" My understanding of that statement is that the OP ought not to choose a career that involves medical school and should choose another career. Because it seems that not only is the OP is willing to make an effort towards recovery, but there are feasible recovery strategies available, I object to this advice. I understand you gave further advice should the OP disregard your initial advice, but that's not what I was addressing--so no need for a condescending Wikipedia link to the definition of straw man as that's not what's happening here.
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Well said.
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So you have access to this person's complete medical history, are treating and observing/have treated and observed them in a psychiatric capacity for a significant amount of time, are trained and licensed as a psychiatrist, and/or have years and years of experience with mood disorders? Because the one strong statement I made involved an assumption that you were not familiar with strategies to manage sleep deprivation and day night reversal in mood disorders. I assumed this because I thought you would have different advice had you known about them. I feel like you would have mentioned your psychiatric training or experience with mood disorders if that were applicable and it should be safe to assume that you have no familiarity with the OP as a person or a patient because that would make your commentary on here either unethical or accidental or both.
But you are an MD/PhD, so that could (possibly) explain a whole hell of a lot....
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You're being defensive. We're all on the same team here. Making sure someone doesn't do something harmful to themselves. She made the same point that I did with more detail, that medical training is adverse to your health under the best of circumstances. And that precaution should be undertaken for anyone who may be more susceptible than your average student.
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agreed. Many people I hear all the time say "I'm not a criminal I just went to jail for (not paying childsupport, driving drunk, getting high, hitting my boyfriend with a beer bottle, etc) It says a lot about their inner perspective. It is one thing to try to explain what you did, why you did it, and how you have learned from it in your personal statement ( worth doing ) but to just justify and act like you were a victim of the world, will be viewed by whoever is on the other end as "I didn't learn and never will, watch me repeat possibly worse and then blame you for it".
I have seen it in all walks of life.
I wish the OP the best, but I agree that if you do something that gets you arrested you are a criminal. It can be hard to accept, but expect to be stuck in life until you do. Once you accept it, life will still be an uphill adventure, but it will be one you can win and that people will want to root for you on (america loves an underdog if the dog is humble)
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Could the OP elaborate on this? I am also confused how he does not see how smoking marijuana / possession is a crime?
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In some states/municipalities/locations, possession isn't a crime. In these places, it has to be possession with intent to distribute (typically defined by exceeding a threshold amount).
As to the mental health piece, I think it's worth noting that for traditional medical school applicants, there could quite possibly be latent/undiagnosed mental health issues that won't surface until their mid-20s (ie, towards the second half of medical school). If it were me, (either as an applicant or an adcom member), that's something I would consider seriously. How many applicants are admitted every year who turn out to be bipolar? The population rate of bipolar disorders is 2-3%. I'm sure it's far higher among budding physicians/medical students. Should the OP be summarily denied a shot at medical school due to the fact that we *know* of a mental health issue, as opposed to it being latent/undiagnosed for the time being?
Personally, the "serious" complications of bipolar disorder aren't what concerns me so much. Incredibly self-destructive behavior, drug use, irresponsible sex, deep depression, suicide/tendencies towards self-harm, mixed states....these are hallmarks that the OP and his/her treatment team will be on the lookout for. It's the more subtle signs that something is amiss that worry me. Narcissism, grandiosity, magical thinking, etc. are often the first signs that something is happening that isn't good. They're also frequently manifested by typical doctors. How do you separate between the two?
As to what someone "can and cannot" do, I don't think it's that the OP "can't" be a doctor. But I agree with others who have mentioned that he's bat**** insane for thinking s/he can do so while maintaining mental health. I don't care how many "strategies" a person comes up with, fooling around with sleep schedules, sleep deprivation, etc. is a recipe for disaster for bipolar patients. That doesn't begin to address the profoundly negative effects of stress (let alone extreme and prolonged) on bipolar patients. Frankly, I think the idea that a bipolar patient can manage extreme stress and sleep deprivation with "strategies" sounds awfully akin to magical thinking.
I'm not a psychiatrist, and don't pretend to have all of the answers. But I do have a brother and an aunt with bipolar disorder. One is doing quite well, the other rather poorly. The difference lies in their understanding of their illness. If you want mental illness treated like any other illness, then step one is accepting that mental illness can seriously limit the options available to someone, just as physical illness can. This isn't about can/can't, this is about understanding and accepting one's limitations. In order to manage bipolar disorder successfully, one MUST minimize stress (to the degree possible), religiously maintain a healthy sleep schedule/habits, and generally avoid anything that will upset those two things. If you want to stay well, them's the ground rules. Being a doctor is completely incompatible with those ground rules.
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I know a physician personally with bipolar disorder. He/she is a very happy practicing physician in a low-stress IM sub-specialty. If you are aware of your limits (for example, being a surgeon = not ideal) then being a physician with bipolar disorder is very possible.
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Different jurisdictions have different laws, agreed.
If you get arrested and convicted for something, it was a crime. (period)
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It does not matter what the OP thinks about his or her limitations, if he is unable to inspire the confidence of a surgical doctor then he or she will not be accepted into a surgical residency. That's how it works.
Both the mentally ill and the non mentally ill need to maintain a healthy diet and sleep schedule to maximize productivity. Many doctors avoid specialties that require on call duty or unusual working hours because it does not fit their personalities.
I do agree with you that the OP obviously needs to sort out personal issues before thinking about medical school.
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+1 to all of this.
At this point you have a long road before you are a viable applicant. After any incident such as arrest, conviction, expulsion, suing the school or combination of above, the MDs reading your application will need to see a prolonged period of stability before they would feel safe with you treating as a student or physician. I would begin slowly, with taking care of legal matters, holding full time regular job, and slowly adding in more responsibilities. You must provide evidence that you can be successful (close to 100% certainty) and for you this evidence will come in the form of multiple years of a stable and demanding (>50 hrs/wk) schedule of work and other commitments.
I understand a lot of this feedback may be hard to hear, but in my personal and clinical experience a big challenge in bipolar is self-awareness and accepting limitations. No one is trying to be mean but you seem to have multiple red flags that you are still too labile to safely meet the demands of medical training.
I truly wish you good luck in whatever you choose to do.
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Carefully read "The House of God" by Samuel Shem and then decide if you still want to go into medicine.
