Bizarre Medical Student

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I understand if it's the case that the patient has a diagnosis or a probable diagnosis and the student is explaining said diagnosis to the patient if they are comfortable with that and with the management. A patient being bitten by a dog would be an example. In your example, the patient had no evidence of even being bitten by the dog. Why anyone would have a discussion about rabies with the patient is beyond me. This is the bizarre behavior.

In the first example, that seems like it could be an innocent mistake and the student may be talking to the patient about his/her own private beliefs about antibiotic prescription. In those situations, it's important to talk to the student that they should always be introducing themselves as a medical student (not "student doctor" or that bull****) and when they are expressing private opinions, it should be stated as such.
 
I was really miffed and told my senior, but he told me to just ignore it and that the student's dad was an attending here.
Make sure your senior knows this student needs more experience with prostate exams, diabetic foot exams, agitated patients, research assignments etc. As long as his dad isn't your PD.
 
I am a resident who has noticed strange behavior from a particular medical student over the past few months and just wanted to share my experience and solicit advice on how to deal with this case. This medical student has been observed by me on two subsequent rotations we happen to coincidentally be on. I have noticed more what I would classify as bizarre and at times egotistical (not unsafe or overtly malignant) behaviors from him/her and I don't think this person should be doing this and think someone should be notified.

1.) There was a case where we were treating an HIV patient for CAP as a primary service. This was based off a measured fever in the ED/questionable infiltrate/new onset cough which the patient presented to the hospital for (his CD4 was not <200, he only required 2L on presentation, no COPD hx). Two days later, the student reported the patient was having diarrhea which he attributed to the antibiotics and he said this quite condescendingly. I felt dumb that I missed diarrhea so I went after rounds without telling anyone to get more history on the diarrhea and the patient and nurse denied the diarrhea. I later asked the student about it and he gets defensive and tells me he noted it on the flowsheets. I look on the flowsheets and noted there was one episode of semi-formed stool documented but neither the nurse or the patient had thought much of it and the rest of the stools were solid. This nurse and I had some rapport from a previous case and he shared with me that the student had spent 30 minutes with the patient talking to him about how antibiotics were overprescribed and this was not a pneumonia based off his experience. I was really miffed and told my senior, but he told me to just ignore it and that the student's dad was an attending here.

2.) This is really what I felt was bizarre. We had a patient who came in for a unilateral cellulitis with intact skin with hx of DM, HF. The patient owned a dog but to his knowledge the dog had not bit or interacted (bit/licked, etc.) with the leg. We felt the etiology for related to venous stasis. This student tries to make the case that the dog bit the patient and caused this reaction. The next day when I go to see the patient he told me one of the doctors had told him that his dog would need to be euthanized to determine if it had caused the issue and if this was true. I had a suspicion what had led to this discussion, but I asked the student unassumingly if he had asked the patient about rabies and he told me he had a long discussion with the patient about it. I asked directly if he had told the patient his dog needed to be put down and he said he had never told the patient this. Of note, there were no consultant teams seeing the patients, my senior did not speak with the patient, and the attending does not typically do so outside of rounds and no one had mentioned rabies. I spoke to him about this and brought up the previous time with the HIV patient and the Pneumonia but I don't think the student really respected what I had to say.


Overall, I really don't know what to do here. On one end, I really don't like reporting things because I think every time you report something, admin looks into both sides of the story and I don't want to come off as a problem resident and have worked hard to cultivate the best impression I can. On the other hand I am really put off by the student's condescending behavior and think he needs to be spoken to or disciplined in some way for the way he talks with patients. I am really not sure who to discuss this with.

Thoughts?
Truthfully, unless you feel the student is directly causing harm, I'd just let it go. You're going to encounter a number of people who rub you the wrong way, or who you feel aren't competent in various ways, but you don't want to be that guy who's stirring up dramas. And re your first story, you already spoke to an attending who told you to let it go. I've met personality types before who essentially search for things to escalate / turn into "issues." I'm not saying you're one of those people though.
 
This dude sounds like a real dingus but there is no gross negligence or overt harm. I mean how many times have you gone to see a patient after a student and they tell you a completely different story than what the student reported. At most I’d just watch this person like a hawk and see if he is actively doing these things or just tripping over himself and getting in his own way. I also might take the kid aside and kindly inquire if he is having some struggles with presenting or if he gets nervous on rounds and when he says something wrong gets defensive. Happens all the time. And then just point out that honesty is a good policy and “I don’t know” is almost always an acceptable answer.
 
This dude sounds like a real dingus but there is no gross negligence or overt harm. I mean how many times have you gone to see a patient after a student and they tell you a completely different story than what the student reported. At most I’d just watch this person like a hawk and see if he is actively doing these things or just tripping over himself and getting in his own way. I also might take the kid aside and kindly inquire if he is having some struggles with presenting or if he gets nervous on rounds and when he says something wrong gets defensive. Happens all the time. And then just point out that honesty is a good policy and “I don’t know” is almost always an acceptable answer.
I mean he’s telling patients their dogs will have to be euthanized and making inappropriate calls to consultants and incorrect info to patients. That’s grossly inappropriate. You’d probably fail a rotation here for doing that.
 
Many SDNers strongly believe in "minding your own business" or "snitches get stitches" or some other nonsense to justify themselves in not doing anything when seeing academic dishonesty or even outright danger to patient safety. This mindset is repetitive and longlasting which is frustrating
Agreed.

SDNers, you don't snitch on the streets because you're trying to survive AKA not die.

This ain't the streets.
 
I'd talk with the student. Reporting him seems like way over the top. He probably had a little ego, knows a lot from basic science years and is over applying the knowledge and trying to find something wrong.

Also, it sounds like you a an intern or very early in residency. Have you not experienced patients telling you one thing and then telling the attending the exact opposite?

I have many fond memories of asking the patient if they have X. Patient swears he doesn't have X. I go tell attending it's Y because patient denies X. Attending goes into room, patient says he has X.

Wtf... Welcome to medicine.

Talk with student, move on. This seems more of a headache than it's worth imo. I would love to hear students side of the story or interpretation.
 
Also, it sounds like you a an intern or very early in residency. Have you not experienced patients telling you one thing and then telling the attending the exact opposite?

I have many fond memories of asking the patient if they have X. Patient swears he doesn't have X. I go tell attending it's Y because patient denies X. Attending goes into room, patient says he has X.
Historical Alternans.
 
I'd talk with the student. Reporting him seems like way over the top. He probably had a little ego, knows a lot from basic science years and is over applying the knowledge and trying to find something wrong.

Also, it sounds like you a an intern or very early in residency. Have you not experienced patients telling you one thing and then telling the attending the exact opposite?

I have many fond memories of asking the patient if they have X. Patient swears he doesn't have X. I go tell attending it's Y because patient denies X. Attending goes into room, patient says he has X.

Wtf... Welcome to medicine.

Talk with student, move on. This seems more of a headache than it's worth imo. I would love to hear students side of the story or interpretation.
Classic pass the buck attitude. This guy is a student and is already affecting care. Soon this dope is going to actually be able to hurt people. But sure, just ignore it and let it be someone else’s problem.
 
Classic pass the buck attitude. This guy is a student and is already affecting care. Soon this dope is going to actually be able to hurt people. But sure, just ignore it and let it be someone else’s problem.
Not really. I'm pretty realistic. I never trusted anything a med student said when I was a resident. I verified everything they said or wrote in chart. Also, I tell my students to spend 5-10 mins max with patients. 30+ mins with a patient? Definitely easy to go off on tangents with that much time.

This conversation with the student is simple, go get the history and physical, don't give your opinion or diagnosis to the patient, and report back to me. Your job is to learn and not to tell patients what you think the diagnosis is, treatment plan is, or anything else.

If after this conversation, it happens again, then it's become a problem and then it's time to move up the food chain.

Scenario 1 was easy. Did you or do you have diarrhea? No? OK. Cool. Sorry, that the medical student told you it that its from antibiotics, he's young and still learning. Here is the actual diagnosis and plan.
 
I'd talk with the student. Reporting him seems like way over the top. He probably had a little ego, knows a lot from basic science years and is over applying the knowledge and trying to find something wrong.

Also, it sounds like you a an intern or very early in residency. Have you not experienced patients telling you one thing and then telling the attending the exact opposite?

I have many fond memories of asking the patient if they have X. Patient swears he doesn't have X. I go tell attending it's Y because patient denies X. Attending goes into room, patient says he has X.

Wtf... Welcome to medicine.

Talk with student, move on. This seems more of a headache than it's worth imo. I would love to hear students side of the story or interpretation.
Happens to me every day, unfortunately. That said, I’ve worked with several students and while I’m no seasoned academic medicine attending, several things gave me a bad vibe. I also compare his actions to stuff I have gotten flak for in the past (whether unfair or not) based on my prior clinical settings and suspect if I had ever done this in any setting, there would have been significant consequences. Also his dad is not at attending at our hospital but a local one in town.
 
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So yesterday the student did now show up for rotations and I was told by the attending that they were emailed and that student was on a temporary leave but no further detail was provided.
How likely is the student going to fail the rotation? Because i hope the guy gets destroyed on his MSPE
 
This sounds like a pretty typical case of clinical shakeout. I think we all went to school w/ people who we figured would get purged during their clinical years due to personality/professionalism issues. The only rub is that their parent is an attending. Yeah, it's not the mob, but I've seen rules bent over abx stewardship, residency spots awarded, etc, simply because the pt or student was related to an attending.
 
I'd talk with the student. Reporting him seems like way over the top. He probably had a little ego, knows a lot from basic science years and is over applying the knowledge and trying to find something wrong.

Also, it sounds like you a an intern or very early in residency. Have you not experienced patients telling you one thing and then telling the attending the exact opposite?

I have many fond memories of asking the patient if they have X. Patient swears he doesn't have X. I go tell attending it's Y because patient denies X. Attending goes into room, patient says he has X.

Wtf... Welcome to medicine.

Talk with student, move on. This seems more of a headache than it's worth imo. I would love to hear students side of the story or interpretation.
The student will most definitely lie about the situation if he posted on SDN until more details emerge that put him in a clearly bad position.

The guy is the reason why even the best resident and attending educators can get frustrated about medical education.
 
The student will most definitely lie about the situation if he posted on SDN until more details emerge that put him in a clearly bad position.

The guy is the reason why even the best resident and attending educators can get frustrated about medical education.
Honestly I was initially worried about SDN/Doxxing etc., but this has become so messed up to me that I don’t even mind being asked about it.
 
I just cant imagine as a student telling someone their dog needed to be killed. Like wtf

Also isnt that not even the protocol? I remember a flash card that for family pets you isolate and watch for signs of rabies. you dont just old yellar them on a whim ffs
 
So yesterday the student did now show up for rotations and I was told by the attending that they were emailed and that student was on a temporary leave but no further detail was provided.
My mind is running through the DDx on what's up with this.

1) Then Clinical Education Dean and/or Rotations Dean found out about this Behavior and pulled student off rotation.

2) Student has become ill, whether mentally or physically.

3) Family issues require the student to go home.

4) Student has become disenchanted with Medicine and has taking a leave to think things over.
 
I just cant imagine as a student telling someone their dog needed to be killed. Like wtf

Also isnt that not even the protocol? I remember a flash card that for family pets you isolate and watch for signs of rabies. you dont just old yellar them on a whim ffs
Yes. If it’s a domestic animal you can watch it for symptoms.
 
I just cant imagine as a student telling someone their dog needed to be killed. Like wtf

Also isnt that not even the protocol? I remember a flash card that for family pets you isolate and watch for signs of rabies. you dont just old yellar them on a whim ffs
I legit think the student is a psychopath and a complete danger to patient care. I hope attendings fail him and tear him apart in his MSPE
 
I legit think the student is a psychopath and a complete danger to patient care. I hope attendings fail him and tear him apart in his MSPE
Then you are legit massively overreaching and wrong
 
Now... here is a side effect of this thread - it got me really worried about my rotations in the future. What if I do something in good faith and someone up the chain will not like it and "report" it?
 
Then you are legit massively overreaching and wrong
Really? The guy clearly presented himself as a danger in several instances to the point where several people (including OP, the fellow etc) were getting really upset by his behavior. This is zero overreaching and instead a bare minimum that should be done to resolve this behavior. He's a threat to patient safety if he's so socially and callously inept to spread bad and false information to patients
 
My mind is running through the DDx on what's up with this.

1) Then Clinical Education Dean and/or Rotations Dean found out about this Behavior and pulled student off rotation.

2) Student has become ill, whether mentally or physically.

3) Family issues require the student to go home.

4) Student has become disenchanted with Medicine and has taking a leave to think things over.
5) Student was eaten by Zombies during night shift...
 
Really? The guy clearly presented himself as a danger in several instances to the point where several people (including OP, the fellow etc) were getting really upset by his behavior. This is zero overreaching and instead a bare minimum that should be done to resolve this behavior. He's a threat to patient safety if he's so socially and callously inept to spread bad and false information to patients
Nothing in this thread would suggest this student is a psychopath
 
Nothing in this thread would suggest this student is a psychopath
Blatantly giving objectively bad information to patients such as recommending their pet to be euthanized is something that's extremely bizarre and insensitive. And that's one instance in a series of bad behaviors. The guy has a really bad problem of lying and spreading bad information that's affecting everyone involved. If you want to disagree with the characterization of him being a psychopath, fine, but he needs to be reprimanded
 
The next day when I go to see the patient he told me one of the doctors had told him that his dog would need to be euthanized to determine if it had caused the issue and if this was true. I had a suspicion what had led to this discussion, but I asked the student unassumingly if he had asked the patient about rabies and he told me he had a long discussion with the patient about it. I asked directly if he had told the patient his dog needed to be put down and he said he had never told the patient this.
Based on this we can't just assume that the student lied and is a psychopath. I can very well see a scenario like this: the student talks to the patient about rabies and mentions that in cases like this, to confirm rabies, the pet has to be put down. The next day the patient tells the intern that the student said the dog has to be euthanized.

It's like telling the patient with chest pain that it may be a "heart attack" and we need to check some things. The patient will tell you that they were told they're having a heart attack.

Until there are transcripts of the conversations available for review...
 
Blatantly giving objectively bad information to patients such as recommending their pet to be euthanized is something that's extremely bizarre and insensitive. And that's one instance in a series of bad behaviors. The guy has a really bad problem of lying and spreading bad information that's affecting everyone involved. If you want to disagree with the characterization of him being a psychopath, fine, but he needs to be reprimanded
Yeah but words matter. Calling someone a psychopath and saying they need to be ripped to shreds in their mspe is excessive. They need to be talked to and reprimanded, and possibly they need to fail the rotation if they aren’t taking criticism to heart.
 
Based on this we can't just assume that the student lied and is a psychopath. I can very well see a scenario like this: the student talks to the patient about rabies and mentions that in cases like this, to confirm rabies, the pet has to be put down. The next day the patient tells the intern that the student said the dog has to be euthanized.

It's like telling the patient with chest pain that it may be a "heart attack" and we need to check some things. The patient will tell you that they were told they're having a heart attack.

Until there are transcripts of the conversations available for review...
Was there even any evidence the patient was even bit by the dog? And why would the student even recommend the pet to be put down when the approach is to watch for signs of rabies?

See not knowing something is one thing but to make bad recommendations callously on wrong information is completely different and problematic. And again, it's a pattern of behavior listed in 3 separate instances. There's a serious problem here
 
Was there even any evidence the patient was even bit by the dog? And why would the student even recommend the pet to be put down when the approach is to watch for signs of rabies?

See not knowing something is one thing but to make bad recommendations callously on wrong information is completely different and problematic. And again, it's a pattern of behavior listed in 3 separate instances. There's a serious problem here
We don't really know what recommendation the student made.

I do agree though that there are some issues that need to be addressed. It's hard to say how serious they are since none of us is really involved in this situation and all of this thread is based on one party's subjective report.
 
I legit think the student is a psychopath and a complete danger to patient care. I hope attendings fail him and tear him apart in his MSPE
Based on your comments in this thread you sound like a Psychopath... See its easy to just throw around insults with no evidence to back it up. Be better than the people u trying to diss.
 
Yeah but words matter. Calling someone a psychopath and saying they need to be ripped to shreds in their mspe is excessive. They need to be talked to and reprimanded, and possibly they need to fail the rotation if they aren’t taking criticism to heart.
I know the language i used was harsh and unforgiving (because i have zero sympathy to anyone who's callously endangering patient care, especially in multiple instances) but it's a pattern of increasingly worse behavior from the student that is clearly hurting everyone involved. And no, it doesn't look like the student is taking criticism into account. OP is clearly trying to work with him, and yet his behavior is getting worse with zero improvement in sight.

MSPE condemnation is likely inevitable if the student fails the rotation.
 
Based on your comments in this thread you sound like a Psychopath... See its easy to just throw around insults with no evidence to back it up. Be better than the people u trying to diss.
Your post isn't really adding anything much to the discussion besides trying to use my words against me. The evidence i used is based on what's presented by OP which i have no reason to deny or question
 
Your post isn't really adding anything much to the discussion besides trying to use my words against me. The evidence i used is based on what's presented by OP which i have no reason to deny or question
Think its clear you are going way overboard with zero evidence of what really happened and using just one side of the story . We all have instances where a medical student say something to a patient and they reported something completely different than what was discussed.
 
We don't really know what recommendation the student made.

I do agree though that there are some issues that need to be addressed. It's hard to say how serious they are since none of us is really involved in this situation and all of this thread is based on one party's subjective report.
Even by OP's own account, several people were clearly hurt and angered by the student's behavior.

Also the fact that none of us really know the situation can apply to any situation presented on the forums. I have no reason to question or deny OP's account
 
Think its clear you are going way overboard with zero evidence of what really happened and using just one side of the story . We all have instances where a medical student say something to a patient and they reported something completely different than what was discussed.
Again, it's three separate instances showing a problematic pattern of behavior, and nothing suggests OP's account was false and i have zero reason to think so. Your post applies to virtually any incident reported on SDN because we're rarely if ever going to get complete, all sides account of the story on here. And even by OP's own account, several people were hurt by the student's behavior
 
Also the fact that none of us really know the situation can apply to any situation presented on the forums. I have no reason to question or deny OP's account
And THIS is exactly why we should restrain from forming very categorical opinions about people who are not even part of this thread/forum. The older I get, the more I see the need for a more toned approach to matters.
 
And THIS is exactly why we should restrain from forming very categorical opinions about people who are not even part of this thread/forum. The older I get, the more I see the need for a more toned approach to matters.
While normally i'd agree, i've seen a lot of threads where med students severely trivialize and downplay the severity of their bad behaviors, professionalism violations etc when posting threads on SDN asking why they got expelled that made me increasingly less sympathetic over time.

So OP's account of bad behavior of the med student fit in pretty realistically. I'd like to be pro student as much as the other guys when railing against the subjectivity of clinical years and bad attendings... but i think over time the problem of bad students is being overlooked and that's something to focus on more
 
But yes, i'll say my use of excessively harsh language in using the word "psychopath" was unwarranted. I admit i got the emotions the best of me when reading the accounts that were getting increasingly worse

We don't know why the student was on temporary leave but at the very least, i hope the attendings talk to the student and reprimand him for bad behavior. And hopefully the student will take that into account and improve
 
Blatantly giving objectively bad information to patients such as recommending their pet to be euthanized is something that's extremely bizarre and insensitive. And that's one instance in a series of bad behaviors. The guy has a really bad problem of lying and spreading bad information that's affecting everyone involved. If you want to disagree with the characterization of him being a psychopath, fine, but he needs to be reprimanded
Pretty much no one is saying this behavior is OK, but there's an ocean between what's been described and any kind of psych diagnosis
 
While normally i'd agree, i've seen a lot of threads where med students severely trivialize and downplay the severity of their bad behaviors, professionalism violations etc when posting threads on SDN asking why they got expelled that made me increasingly less sympathetic over time.

So OP's account of bad behavior of the med student fit in pretty realistically. I'd like to be pro student as much as the other guys when railing against the subjectivity of clinical years and bad attendings... but i think over time the problem of bad students is being overlooked and that's something to focus on more
Yes, but - In medio stat veritas. I am not saying that the OP is skewing the story towards their side to make a point. I am trying to realize though that the arguments are based on probable cause, as described in my previous post. Say the student was discussing rabies with the patient and said that the only way know if this is the case is to euthanize the dog. The student did not say the dog needs to be euthanized. Merely explained what would need to be done to rule in/out rabies. All the patient hears is "The dog" and "euthanized." Bam! What the problem was is in such situation is communication skills, which - and here I do strongly agree - the student seems to be lacking.

Ok. Let's stop beating this dead horse.
 
I mean he’s telling patients their dogs will have to be euthanized and making inappropriate calls to consultants and incorrect info to patients. That’s grossly inappropriate. You’d probably fail a rotation here for doing that.
Is he doing that ? Did I miss the part where the student admitted it? (Asking sincerely, I tried to read the whole OP post carefully but can miss stuff). If patient said “student z told me that my dog had to be put down” that would be concerning but still not hard evidence since a patient could easily “sometimes dogs are put down if they bite” into the above statement particularly when they are in a heightened state of anxiety because of being hospitalized.
 
Now... here is a side effect of this thread - it got me really worried about my rotations in the future. What if I do something in good faith and someone up the chain will not like it and "report" it?
You may do something in good faith that is stupid or dangerous. We all do something stupid at some point or another. Its part of the training process. Issues come from not taking responsibility for your mistakes and learning from them.
 
Is he doing that ? Did I miss the part where the student admitted it? (Asking sincerely, I tried to read the whole OP post carefully but can miss stuff). If patient said “student z told me that my dog had to be put down” that would be concerning but still not hard evidence since a patient could easily “sometimes dogs are put down if they bite” into the above statement particularly when they are in a heightened state of anxiety because of being hospitalized.
Oh I forgot. Only people who admit things are guilty. Given OP’s history here and all the different instances, clearly something is amiss. Patients hearing something differently than what they’re told is 100% a thing, but at some point a pattern points to the person rather than the patients.
 
Now... here is a side effect of this thread - it got me really worried about my rotations in the future. What if I do something in good faith and someone up the chain will not like it and "report" it?
Don’t tell your patients their dogs will have to be put down or call consultants with incorrect info and then deny everything, and you should be fine.
 
Now... here is a side effect of this thread - it got me really worried about my rotations in the future. What if I do something in good faith and someone up the chain will not like it and "report" it?

Dude you're fine. I have worked with 100s of medical students either as a colleague and most recently supervising and this one student is really bizarre (unusual by definition). All I have to say is that there are several layers to this person's missteps. We all have some maladaptive tendencies and character flaws, but there are usually an abundance of redeeming qualities. Many of us are deficient in clinical knowledge in some areas we haven't had exposure to. As such, we often readily admit we don't know XYZ. Conversely, many of us can be overconfident about our medical knowledge (Midlevel Syndrome) in an area (ex. Cardiology) especially if we have taken an interest in it and may overinterpret a clinical case to fit what our knowledge base is telling us (incorrect synthesis). If you say on rounds the patient's atrial fibrillation with RVR event was associated with hypotension to the attending and it's not quite what happened... that's OK! If your attending checks the charts and sees an episode of borderline hypotension at 3 am while patient is sleeping and the patient had cirrhosis history and this AFib you noted was at 7PM in the evening with concommitant hypertension at the time and his last drink was 2 days ago, then you should be willing to re-broaden your differential OR at the very least not tell the patient that the collective team made a mistake and should have given him a shock last night and recommend he go to another hospital with better Cardiology care. The latter is a made up example, but something I would not put past this person.
 
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