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Do you know of any US allo schools whose applicants are notoriously avoided by PD's -regardless of stats and Step scores?
Black-listed Schools?
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I don't think this phenomenon exists on a broad scale. I go to a lesser known med school, and tons of people match into elite competitive residencies. There are probably just random PDs here and there that love filling their slots with graduates from big name schools.
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There are no such thing on a widescale level like your post suggests. Individual PDs may like or dislike certain schools based on prior years' alumni residents, but there isn't going to be a rule that X residencies won't take people from Y school. And FWIW, to the extent there is a bias it doesn't favor the top ranked schools -- I've actually heard attendings express things like students from Z (top school) aren't as clinically prepared, etc. It cuts both ways, and you are benefitted or tainted by the alumni residents that came to that program before you, to a small degree.
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I hope this is the case. It's curious that some of the places I'm considering don't seem to have a lot of people out there on the public "current resident" pages. I'm sure the grads go somewhere, but it seems easier to spot a Caribbean grad than certain American school graduates -great for the IMGs for sure. I wish there was a way to find residents from schools that do not post their match lists.
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When I was at Duke, the anecdotes seemed to be to me that there were more #1 students from state schools than middle of the pack from #1 schools, irrespective of location (not including idiosyncratic Duke holdovers from undergrad and the med school).
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What you are suggesting isn't a good use of match lists anyway even if they were available. Those lists just tell you what people got, not what they could have gotten. Meaning even if you aren't impressed with what everybody at a given school chose, that doesn't mean it wasn't a fantastic match where everybody got what they wanted. So you can't look at a list and decide that nobody from XYZ school got into rad onc, unless you know what people applied for. So I don't know what you hope to tell by looking at match lists. It won't tell you if folks were blacklisted from a program, or advised against it due to malignancy. You will almost always be drawing the wrong conclusion because you lack the necessary info.
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I get what you are saying. But say, if an inordinate amount of people end up staying with the school's local residency program (not generally held in good repute), it might make you wonder if other people just aren't taking these folks. I think it is a legitimate question. Also, regardless of specialty, if all of XSchool's students are getting into big name programs around the country and all of YSchool's students (the ones you can find) are usually tucked in with IMG's in BFE, don't you think that otta give a student pause?
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I am not sure what you are getting at. Are you asking for reassurance that if you go to a school which doesnt have your ideal match list, you will match in neurosurgery at Hopkins? Or do you want us to confirm that you should go to the school with the better match list?
If you are accepted at two or more schools and looking at the match lists, an impressive match list can be impressive. It doesnt guarantee that if you go to that school you will get an impressive match. But it does show that that school has a track record for its grads going to good programs. The best way for you to get a great match is to go to a school where you will be happy and thrive and do well academically. If that happens to be the school with the better match list, its an easy decision. If not, you need to weigh the pros and cons and think about what you like about the different schools.
If you cant find a match list for a school you are seriously considering, call or e-mail and ask for a copy of the past few years.
Students choose to stay at their home program for many reasons including family and friends in the area (try relocating with your spouse who has a great job and a couple kids in schools they love!), they really like the folks they are working with and want to continue working with them, they bought a house and dont think they can sell it in todays economy, etc. Students also rank programs for many different reasons only some of which include whether or not there are FMG's at a program. If you want to eventually practice rural medicine, you might actually prefer to train in BFE than NYC.
And whereever you end up, go out and work hard and enjoy the opportunity!!!
If you are accepted at two or more schools and looking at the match lists, an impressive match list can be impressive. It doesnt guarantee that if you go to that school you will get an impressive match. But it does show that that school has a track record for its grads going to good programs. The best way for you to get a great match is to go to a school where you will be happy and thrive and do well academically. If that happens to be the school with the better match list, its an easy decision. If not, you need to weigh the pros and cons and think about what you like about the different schools.
If you cant find a match list for a school you are seriously considering, call or e-mail and ask for a copy of the past few years.
Students choose to stay at their home program for many reasons including family and friends in the area (try relocating with your spouse who has a great job and a couple kids in schools they love!), they really like the folks they are working with and want to continue working with them, they bought a house and dont think they can sell it in todays economy, etc. Students also rank programs for many different reasons only some of which include whether or not there are FMG's at a program. If you want to eventually practice rural medicine, you might actually prefer to train in BFE than NYC.
And whereever you end up, go out and work hard and enjoy the opportunity!!!
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I want IM -nothing fancy. A school that I am weighing doesn't seem to place many people (at all) in the region where I eventually want to live (or any other region for that matter). Just makes you wonder.
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Again -- bad info = wrong conclusions. If a lot of people stay at the school's residency program that's a good thing. Given that about 85% of folks in the match end up with one of their top choices, this means that people are choosing to stay. Which means the school is doing something right -- people LIKE IT THERE. If you are drawing conclusions that this is a bad thing, you missed the ball. I'm not sure where you get info of who holds programs in good repute, but unless you are sitting down with a mentor during late med school and discussing a specific specialty, you aren't getting good access to what programs are good vs malignant. This isn't a published thing, it's a word of mouth thing by folks who know all the players.
Second, you can't say "regardless of specialty" because the big name programs are not the US News programs in every specialty. Unless you know what the hot places are in a given field, you are going to be way off when you focus in on eg Harvard affiliates (which may not even be that good in a given specialty). So "big name" is meaningless. Specialty specific top programs are what is more meaningful. They often aren't the same. And there is no point looking at a specialty specific top program until you have chosen a specialty.
I just think you are trying in vain to gather data and put together a picture, but the data isn't what you think, and you are ending up with a Mona Lisa when the picture is really a bunch of dogs playing poker. Unless you know why people are applying for what they applied for, you don't really know if they chose what they got or got stuck with it. Most cases it's the former. People WANT a particular geography, or have family ties to a location, or truly like the places they end up. And if a person shoots for XYZ residency and gets it, that's a much better match than someone who ends up at a big name, but reportedly malignant, program that was further down their initial pre-interview list. There are big name programs in certain specialties with bad reputations for working folks in violation of the hours limitations and not treating them well. But you seem to want to consider that a big win, while the guy who actually gets what he wants at his home school you are ready to write off as a loser. This is so far off it's silly. And it's why match lists are not helpful because the data you need is the step before. As I often say, reading a match list is like watching the last few minutes of a movie with the sound off and then trying to figure out what the movie was all about. You will be wrong most of the time. So don't do this. It's actually disinformation.
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Schools don't "place" anybody. This is where you drove off the road in your thinking. This is very much an individual effort, and one strongly based on choice. Did the folks from the school want to go where they ended up? If so, it's an amazing match list and you shouldn't read into it that they didn't end up elsewhere. You are acting like it's a negative to end up where you want if it's not "the" top program. Top med students at any US allo school have numerous choices. That they did not make the same choice you would doesn't mean the school would necessarilly be a bad one for you. I'd put away match lists.
Also, you may think you want IM and nothing fancy, but you may change your mind. Most med students do, at least once. So you'd hate to pick a school where everybody seems to end up where you want to and then find out you love something else more, that perhaps the school do well.
I'd also note that you are sometimes going to be better off not competing head to head with classmates for the same residencies. If a dozen people want IM at MGH from your school, you won't all get it -- the program is going to rank you differently and probably try to create a bit of diversity with other schools represented in the mix. So your odds could conceivably be better coming from a program where not everybody is shooting for the same target.
As you can see, there are simply too many variables, not enough good data. Best advice is to pick a school based on factors unrelated to the match lists, which I continue to assert are useless to premeds because they don't tell you what you really need to know -- why folks chose what they chose.
Part of the problem you are likely having is that you are still looking at things through undergrad eyes. In undergrad, it sometimes makes sense to launch of for the most prestigious or competitive thing, because you will only be doing it for a while, and have nothing to anchor you to a given locale. When you are finishing up med school, by contrast, you are choosing the specialty you are likely to do for the next 45 years, you more likely have put down roots to a geographic are, may be starting a family, likely have a spouse or SO with geographic limitations, etc. So your choices are being made for VERY different reasons. So a match list being read by an undergrad eye may be very different than by someone 4 years further down the pike. Different things will be important to you. Don't try to assume where you are going to be in 4 years, what your life will be like, and what you will want. And for sure don't try to extrapolate this onto choices of strangers on a match list you are perusing. This is where you are running off he course.
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Some schools just don't have a lot of people going into IM at all. I think we had maybe 10 or 15 people in my entire medical school going into IM my year, if that. Especially with some of the well known private schools, not a lot of people want to do things like peds and IM. If you do pretty well in med school, getting an IM spot likely won't be a problem.
If you want to do IM in Boston, NYC or San Francisco, it might behoove you to go to med school in the general region and at a fairly well known med school, but even if you do not you'd still have a shot at such places with a good Step 1 score and good grades in 3rd year.
Keep in mind, as others have mentioned above, the match list for particular schools reflects the choices and biases of the students themselves (about where they want to train) at least as much as the preferences of residency programs.
No, I don't think there are "black listed" schools. However, I do think some of the bigger name schools have biases against certain med schools, in the sense that they will only take students from these if they have a somewhat higher class rank, and at least equal board scores + publications vs. a student from perhaps a bigger name school. I have seen and heard the PD at my medical school discussing a candidate from a certain med school in this way (i.e. well she's in the top 1/3 of her class, but what does that MEAN at med school X?). I also agree with some of lawdoc's comments above. PD's are all going to have their biases based on past experiences with candidates from particular schools. There are probably PD's who don't like candidates from particular "big name" schools as well, because they feel they aren't as prepared to carry a lot of patients right away, and/or don't have experience working in less well staffed public hospitals, etc.
If you want to do IM in Boston, NYC or San Francisco, it might behoove you to go to med school in the general region and at a fairly well known med school, but even if you do not you'd still have a shot at such places with a good Step 1 score and good grades in 3rd year.
Keep in mind, as others have mentioned above, the match list for particular schools reflects the choices and biases of the students themselves (about where they want to train) at least as much as the preferences of residency programs.
No, I don't think there are "black listed" schools. However, I do think some of the bigger name schools have biases against certain med schools, in the sense that they will only take students from these if they have a somewhat higher class rank, and at least equal board scores + publications vs. a student from perhaps a bigger name school. I have seen and heard the PD at my medical school discussing a candidate from a certain med school in this way (i.e. well she's in the top 1/3 of her class, but what does that MEAN at med school X?). I also agree with some of lawdoc's comments above. PD's are all going to have their biases based on past experiences with candidates from particular schools. There are probably PD's who don't like candidates from particular "big name" schools as well, because they feel they aren't as prepared to carry a lot of patients right away, and/or don't have experience working in less well staffed public hospitals, etc.
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FWIW, the IM program I matched into (my #1) hadn't even had an applicant from my med school in the 15y the PD has been there. Some schools tend to be regional (state schools in the NE, south and TX are particularly known for this) where people graduate and want to stay locally. In my graduating class (state school in NY) of ~240 graduates, about 30 of us went >200 miles away for residency. So, on paper it looks like people CAN'T match out of the area. In reality, the vast majority didn't even APPLY outside of that region so of course they wouldn't match. It's a bias that has NOTHING to do with the school and EVERYTHING to do with the students. Your ability to match in a particular place has WAY more to do with you than where you go to school. That's obviously a factor but it's a very small one compared to you.
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This is encouraging. I mean, some programs, even non-big-name programs I looked at in the region don't seem to have ever taken a person from X school, although I have found a few graduates licensed by the medical board in some of the states I'd consider ending up in. Admittedly, most people attending this school probably aren't looking to end up where I am looking, so there is a certain amount of student bias.
Law2Doc said:
Well, the post-med school considerations you listed apply to me now, so I have an obligation to approach this situation with foresight. Doesn't make sense to saddle the family with hundreds of thousands in debt and not kick the tires of a program. I'm not saying that a match list is everything, but to claim it's useless is also exaggerated. In my case, I'd almost be willing to pick from any palatable specialty if it would increase my chances of landing in my region of choice -I could really care less about the prestige as long as the benefits package is good and the work environment is right. For these resons, I've even considered reapplying despite my current acceptances. Everyone has different personal and professional concerns, so a blanket dismissal of the premise is not really helpful.
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Agree with much of what Law2 is saying. On top of not knowing the desires of the students from 2 schools you are comparing, you have no way to correct for the differences in admission to these medical schools to begin with. If you see someone from a top Ivy league school matching at what is considered a top program that's great. But who is to say that same individual wouldn't have gotten the same (or a comparable) match from a school with a lesser reputation simply because he/she was blessed with significant IQ, work ethic, etc. and still would have had an allstar application? Similarly, those students from the "lesser" school obtaining what are considered top matches might very well have had the option of attending the Ivy school but decided against it for location, monetary (e.g. scholarship offer), family, etc. reasons.
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It's one thing to kick the tires. But using match list data isn't kicking the tires, it's kicking someplace on the street in front of the tires, and extrapolating what the tires are like. I'm not saying a match list is useless (ie no information). I'm saying it's WORSE than useless because it's information without a context so it is almost guaranteed to lead you to the wrong answer. If you are smart you focus on the criteria that matter when choosing a school and stay far away on those that are prone to misinform you.
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This is probably the worst thing you could possibly do in this situation. You have a guaranteed seat in a med school class (or 2 or 3) next year. If you pass that up, not only will you have "wasted" another year waiting to get into med school but there are no guarantees that you'll get any offers next year, let alone ones that you think may allow you a better matching opportunity 4y down the road. Assuming that you're not currently trying to choose between an offshore diploma mill and a DO school that opened yesterday (i.e. you're acceptances came from US MD or established DO programs), again, YOU, NOT the school you go to will be the greatest factor in determining where you go for residency.
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This is a great idea, but (1) you definitely want to ask multiple people applying to multiple specialties (the more the better), and (2) it' hard to get candid answers because many people toe the party line and talk up thie alma mater.
Still going to be higher yield than match lists because it will let you put decisions into contexts.
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This is the issue with getting candid answers, I think. No one wants to talk down their school and worsen their own professional outlook because of it.
Yes these are MD on-shore state schools, so I realize that this in and of itself provides an advantage.
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Any of these is an adequate launching pad for a very good IM residency. The hard part is up to you individually.
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RedState
do NOT give up an acceptance that you already have in order to reapply next year to other schools. gutonc is right, unless you are talking about a shady offshore med school vs. a US school, it's not going to end up being that important, particularly if you want IM or one of the less competitive specialties. Where you go to school isn't going to have THAT much effect on where you match. Looking at match lists isn't useless, but I don't think it's as useful as you think. If you are very concerned with staying in a particular region, try to stay there for med school, at least unless you got an acceptance to a top 10 or 15 med school that is one which tends to match people all over (i.e. a few of the private med schools). At any rate, I think it's generally more important to pick a school you'll do well at than one ranked a few slots higher on the US News World Report survey or that gets a few more NIH research dollars...
do NOT give up an acceptance that you already have in order to reapply next year to other schools. gutonc is right, unless you are talking about a shady offshore med school vs. a US school, it's not going to end up being that important, particularly if you want IM or one of the less competitive specialties. Where you go to school isn't going to have THAT much effect on where you match. Looking at match lists isn't useless, but I don't think it's as useful as you think. If you are very concerned with staying in a particular region, try to stay there for med school, at least unless you got an acceptance to a top 10 or 15 med school that is one which tends to match people all over (i.e. a few of the private med schools). At any rate, I think it's generally more important to pick a school you'll do well at than one ranked a few slots higher on the US News World Report survey or that gets a few more NIH research dollars...
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Honestly, for people who have matched into residency, the name of their medical school has little effect on professional outlook. If you are trying to "size someone up" in the medical world, the question asked is not, "Where did you go to medical school?" but rather, "Where did you train." I'm a 4th year and I'll happily give interviewees my perspective (negative AND positive) on my school.
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Sometimes people do ask where you went to med school, particularly people outside of medicine who don't necessarily know what a residency is. However, most people are clueless about what would be considered a well known med school vs. less well known. Except that everybody knows the names of Harvard and Yale...LOL!
I think anyone who gives up an acceptance at a US allopathic med school to try again the next year at other school(s) is being foolish, unless it's some sort of extreme reason (such as the OP wants to be a subspecialist who does bench research but was only accepted at a very primary care oriented school, etc.).
I think anyone who gives up an acceptance at a US allopathic med school to try again the next year at other school(s) is being foolish, unless it's some sort of extreme reason (such as the OP wants to be a subspecialist who does bench research but was only accepted at a very primary care oriented school, etc.).
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OP, you're asking if there is some allopathic school out there whose very name strikes terror (and revulsion) in the hearts of numerous program directors in numerous specialties across the country. Think a bit about how improbable that is.
All medical schools are rigorously regulated by the AAMC. Their curricula, both preclinical and clinical, are standardized. We all take the USMLEs, which is as objective a yardstick as you can get. While certain schools are (accurately) regarded as more difficult to get into and therefore attract a higher caliber of student (on AVERAGE), any bias ends there.
I'm sure that there might be one or two Dickensian program directors shut away amongst the sulfurous smokestacks of a moldering factory town, muttering in their garrets that hell will freeze over before they accept anyone into their program from School X.... but that probably has some incredibly ancient, personal and petty story behind it. (You know... they applied there for med school/residency and were rejected; they accepted a resident from there once who slept with their wife; they hate that school's associated university sports team, etc).
All medical schools are rigorously regulated by the AAMC. Their curricula, both preclinical and clinical, are standardized. We all take the USMLEs, which is as objective a yardstick as you can get. While certain schools are (accurately) regarded as more difficult to get into and therefore attract a higher caliber of student (on AVERAGE), any bias ends there.
I'm sure that there might be one or two Dickensian program directors shut away amongst the sulfurous smokestacks of a moldering factory town, muttering in their garrets that hell will freeze over before they accept anyone into their program from School X.... but that probably has some incredibly ancient, personal and petty story behind it. (You know... they applied there for med school/residency and were rejected; they accepted a resident from there once who slept with their wife; they hate that school's associated university sports team, etc).
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Agreed. Most people's knowledge of higher education is limited to what they've heard of from an NCAA tourney.
